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Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

2007-02-27 by djon43

Baryta (clay)-related comments by Inkjet Art...

At the bottom of the webpage they compare clay-coated papers to their
infinitely less expensive house brand (eg 11X17 @ $0.82 USD per sheet):

http://www.inkjetart.com/photo_papers/ceramic_luster.html 

They don't mention Harman directly, but what other inkjet brand does
clay coating ?

I've found Inkjet Art's technical information and subjective
observations about paper reliable, to the degree that I could evaluate.

Anybody here been able to compare Micro Ceramic to Harman?

RE: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

2007-02-27 by Eric Neilsen

I think you will find several papers that use clay. 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djon43
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

 



Baryta (clay)-related comments by Inkjet Art...

At the bottom of the webpage they compare clay-coated papers to their
infinitely less expensive house brand (eg 11X17 @ $0.82 USD per sheet):

http://www.inkjetar
<http://www.inkjetart.com/photo_papers/ceramic_luster.html>
t.com/photo_papers/ceramic_luster.html 

They don't mention Harman directly, but what other inkjet brand does
clay coating ?

I've found Inkjet Art's technical information and subjective
observations about paper reliable, to the degree that I could evaluate.

Anybody here been able to compare Micro Ceramic to Harman? 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

2007-02-27 by djon43

Eric, 

Harman asserts they're alone with baryta. 

Is some clay other than baryta used? 

Baryta's only advantage vs other clays(the reason Kodak used it for
Kodabromide)was its natural whiteness. It was called "pipeclay" in the
Royal Marines of the 18th century, used to whiten uniforms (just a tidbit)

The "fineness" would be irrelevant, since it's ground to whatever
degree is necessary.

If you know other papers that use clay, please name them. 

It'd be interesting to compare.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen"
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I think you will find several papers that use clay. 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography

> 
> Baryta (clay)-related comments by Inkjet Art...
> 
> At the bottom of the webpage they compare clay-coated papers to their
> infinitely less expensive house brand (eg 11X17 @ $0.82 USD per sheet):
> 
> http://www.inkjetar
> <http://www.inkjetart.com/photo_papers/ceramic_luster.html>
> t.com/photo_papers/ceramic_luster.html 
> 
> They don't mention Harman directly, but what other inkjet brand does
> clay coating ?
> 
> I've found Inkjet Art's technical information and subjective
> observations about paper reliable, to the degree that I could evaluate.
> 
> Anybody here been able to compare Micro Ceramic to Harman? 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

2007-02-27 by John

Baryta, or to give it a proper name, is Barium sulphate.
Baryta.
1. Barium sulphate/sulfate. This material is applied to certain types of black and white photographic paper prior to the application of the emulsion during the manufacturing process. The baryta layer helps create a smooth glossy surface and increases paper whiteness.

This paper surface is then prepaired with a superior Nano-particle, "Patented" microporous finishing coat.

2. Clay/PCC, or Precipitated Calcium Carbonate is used in papers to gain a certification as "archival" and to provide bulk smothness for Laser printing.
 
Some "Baryta's are mined some are created by precipitation and some have an L.a.b. "L" of 99.6%.

Interesting Times.

John_E
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----
From: djon43 <djon43@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 27 February, 2007 3:30:42 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman



Baryta (clay)-related comments by Inkjet Art...

At the bottom of the webpage they compare clay-coated papers to their
infinitely less expensive house brand (eg 11X17 @ $0.82 USD per sheet):

http://www.inkjetar t.com/photo_ papers/ceramic_ luster.html 

They don't mention Harman directly, but what other inkjet brand does
clay coating ?

I've found Inkjet Art's technical information and subjective
observations about paper reliable, to the degree that I could evaluate.

Anybody here been able to compare Micro Ceramic to Harman? 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

2007-02-27 by Eric Neilsen Photo

djon43, I don't have a list of clay papers, but I have known of several over
the years that I have been involved in printing. I don't spend energy
looking these aspects up. 

 

But if you wish, try this on google, "clay coating for ink jet papers" and
you'll find information regarding clay coating and ink jet paper. 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djon43
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:22 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

 

Eric, 

Harman asserts they're alone with baryta. 

Is some clay other than baryta used? 

Baryta's only advantage vs other clays(the reason Kodak used it for
Kodabromide)was its natural whiteness. It was called "pipeclay" in the
Royal Marines of the 18th century, used to whiten uniforms (just a tidbit)

The "fineness" would be irrelevant, since it's ground to whatever
degree is necessary.

If you know other papers that use clay, please name them. 

It'd be interesting to compare.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen"
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> I think you will find several papers that use clay. 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography

> 
> Baryta (clay)-related comments by Inkjet Art...
> 
> At the bottom of the webpage they compare clay-coated papers to their
> infinitely less expensive house brand (eg 11X17 @ $0.82 USD per sheet):
> 
> http://www.inkjetar
> <http://www.inkjetar
<http://www.inkjetart.com/photo_papers/ceramic_luster.html>
t.com/photo_papers/ceramic_luster.html>
> t.com/photo_papers/ceramic_luster.html 
> 
> They don't mention Harman directly, but what other inkjet brand does
> clay coating ?
> 
> I've found Inkjet Art's technical information and subjective
> observations about paper reliable, to the degree that I could evaluate.
> 
> Anybody here been able to compare Micro Ceramic to Harman? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

2007-02-27 by Ernst Dinkla

djon43 wrote:

> Harman asserts they're alone with baryta. 
> 
> Is some clay other than baryta used? 
> 
> Baryta's only advantage vs other clays(the reason Kodak used it for
> Kodabromide)was its natural whiteness. It was called "pipeclay" in the
> Royal Marines of the 18th century, used to whiten uniforms (just a tidbit)
> 
> The "fineness" would be irrelevant, since it's ground to whatever
> degree is necessary.

I wouldn't call Barium Sulphate/Sulfate a clay. It isn't pipe 
clay. It is more an ore. Barium Sulfate should be called 
Barite or Baryte and not Baryta which is Barium Hydroxide. The 
last you wouldn't like to use as a coating as it is a strong 
base and water soluble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barite
http://www.sharlot.org/archives/photographs/19th/book/chapter_2.html

The last link describes the use of Barite as a whitener for 
paper since the 1820's and as a whitener for photographic 
paper since1880.

Some of us have swallowed it mixed in water before x-ray takes 
in hospital, it increases contrasts.

One wonders whether that Harman name is used as a reference to 
the Harman Barite mine in Virginia.
http://www.mindat.org/loc.php?loc=104721&ob=4

The usual clay as used in offset paper coatings is kaolin 
which may be used in one form or another in inkjet coatings 
too. The fineness can be very relevant if the crystal 
structure + the stacking of the particles defines the 
absorption of fluids. That kaolin or China clay or pipe clay 
is the base for porcelain as well and used by soldiers too for 
cleaning and whitening. Kaolinite is a  kind of aluminium 
silicate, the particle structure and stacking of particles is 
important in the absorption behaviour so there are different 
methods for manufacturing the coating powder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolin

There's a difference in use too in inkjet papers I guess. The 
Barite is there in the first place as whitener + to make the 
paper more opaque, the clays like Kaolin are there to absorb 
the ink and by that reduce bleeding next to being (less) white 
and opaque. Harman refers to a silica coating as well on that 
paper. The Barite was used in analogue papers before RC 
papers, as a first coating on paper to get the white surface 
and on top of that the silver gelatine emulsion, in inkjet 
papers that would be the ink receptive layer of micro 
ceramics/silica/kaolin or whatever on top. The extended tone 
range if there is any is probably achieved at the paper white 
end if it is the result of the Barite. Overall the coating 
could have been improved next to the Barite addition. Whether 
that Barite is so special has to be seen, titan dioxide has 
been used for decades as a whitener for RC and normal papers 
and does a good job, opacity being better. Innova's Fibaprint 
uses titan dioxyde.


Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Re: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

2007-02-28 by djon43

Ernst and John, thanks.

Reading online and in your helpful posts, "baryta" is the common 
misnomer for the clay coating that uses a barite additive to create a 
surface color, including both warm and bright white. 

It appears that neither the clay substrate nor its barite that 
ultimately defines inkjet detail resolution, but rather the type of 
top layer. 

I find branding/hype/folklore/pricing interesting. It was common 
knowledge years ago that the best papers, including Dupont Varilour 
and Agfa Brovira/Portriga, had a "baryta" clay coating, and we 
understood this to be almost as important as the amount of silver 
laid on top of it. Was this urban folklore or truth? :-)

Even if I could afford Harman in the sizes I like, I'd compare to the 
MC Lustre simultaneously, hoping to save several dollars per sheet 
for comparable quality.

Whose hype is most accurate, Inkjet Art's or Harman's? 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> djon43 wrote:
> 
> > Harman asserts they're alone with baryta. 
> > 
> > Is some clay other than baryta used? 
> > 
> > Baryta's only advantage vs other clays(the reason Kodak used it 
for
> > Kodabromide)was its natural whiteness. It was called "pipeclay" 
in the
> > Royal Marines of the 18th century, used to whiten uniforms (just 
a tidbit)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 
> > The "fineness" would be irrelevant, since it's ground to whatever
> > degree is necessary.
> 
> I wouldn't call Barium Sulphate/Sulfate a clay. It isn't pipe 
> clay. It is more an ore. Barium Sulfate should be called 
> Barite or Baryte and not Baryta which is Barium Hydroxide. The 
> last you wouldn't like to use as a coating as it is a strong 
> base and water soluble.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryta
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barite
> http://www.sharlot.org/archives/photographs/19th/book/chapter_2.html
> 
> The last link describes the use of Barite as a whitener for 
> paper since the 1820's and as a whitener for photographic 
> paper since1880.
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

2007-03-01 by Peter Marshall

Barium sulphate used to be known as barytes or barite (among other 
names) but in photography the paper made using a layer of barium 
sulphate (applied as a suspension in gelatine) has been known as baryta 
paper for over a hundred years. It isn't a clay at all, clays - 
including pipeclay - are hydrated aluminium silicates. I think all fibre 
base photo papers were baryta papers, at least within living memory. Not 
urban folklore, but what all the text books said. Clay fillers are used 
in some non-photographic papers.

Titanium dioxide is generally preferred as a white pigment for inkjet 
papers - it is the most commonly used white pigment for other purposes 
also. I don't know of any reason to suppose that baryta would give 
better results, though again I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be 
ok. Harman are of course used to coating paper with baryta, so it may 
fit better into their manufacturing process, using the same coating 
machines as their photographic paper.

Peter

Peter Marshall
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......



djon43 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Ernst and John, thanks.
>
> Reading online and in your helpful posts, "baryta" is the common 
> misnomer for the clay coating that uses a barite additive to create a 
> surface color, including both warm and bright white. 
>
> It appears that neither the clay substrate nor its barite that 
> ultimately defines inkjet detail resolution, but rather the type of 
> top layer. 
>
> I find branding/hype/folklore/pricing interesting. It was common 
> knowledge years ago that the best papers, including Dupont Varilour 
> and Agfa Brovira/Portriga, had a "baryta" clay coating, and we 
> understood this to be almost as important as the amount of silver 
> laid on top of it. Was this urban folklore or truth? :-)
>
> Even if I could afford Harman in the sizes I like, I'd compare to the 
> MC Lustre simultaneously, hoping to save several dollars per sheet 
> for comparable quality.
>
> Whose hype is most accurate, Inkjet Art's or Harman's? 
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
> <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>   
>> djon43 wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Harman asserts they're alone with baryta. 
>>>
>>> Is some clay other than baryta used? 
>>>
>>> Baryta's only advantage vs other clays(the reason Kodak used it 
>>>       
> for
>   
>>> Kodabromide)was its natural whiteness. It was called "pipeclay" 
>>>       
> in the
>   
>>> Royal Marines of the 18th century, used to whiten uniforms (just 
>>>       
> a tidbit)
>   
>>> The "fineness" would be irrelevant, since it's ground to whatever
>>> degree is necessary.
>>>       
>> I wouldn't call Barium Sulphate/Sulfate a clay. It isn't pipe 
>> clay. It is more an ore. Barium Sulfate should be called 
>> Barite or Baryte and not Baryta which is Barium Hydroxide. The 
>> last you wouldn't like to use as a coating as it is a strong 
>> base and water soluble.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryta
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barite
>> http://www.sharlot.org/archives/photographs/19th/book/chapter_2.html
>>
>> The last link describes the use of Barite as a whitener for 
>> paper since the 1820's and as a whitener for photographic 
>> paper since1880.
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
>
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RE: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman

2007-03-02 by Eric Neilsen

"so it may fit better into their manufacturing process, using the same
coating machines as their photographic paper."


I suspect that that is ONE of the reasons, but hey, as long as it works and
doesn't turn yellow. 

Eric


Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street
Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
http://ericneilsenphotography.com
Skype ejprinter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
> Marshall
> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:45 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Micro Ceramic Lustre Vs (presumably) Harman
> 
> Barium sulphate used to be known as barytes or barite (among other
> names) but in photography the paper made using a layer of barium
> sulphate (applied as a suspension in gelatine) has been known as baryta
> paper for over a hundred years. It isn't a clay at all, clays -
> including pipeclay - are hydrated aluminium silicates. I think all fibre
> base photo papers were baryta papers, at least within living memory. Not
> urban folklore, but what all the text books said. Clay fillers are used
> in some non-photographic papers.
> 
> Titanium dioxide is generally preferred as a white pigment for inkjet
> papers - it is the most commonly used white pigment for other purposes
> also. I don't know of any reason to suppose that baryta would give
> better results, though again I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be
> ok. Harman are of course used to coating paper with baryta, so it may
> fit better into their manufacturing process, using the same coating
> machines as their photographic paper.
> 
> Peter
> 
> Peter Marshall
> _________________________________________________________________
> My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
> London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
> The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
> and elsewhere......
> 
> 
>

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