Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Marketing hype for cotton.

Marketing hype for cotton.

2007-04-06 by djon43

HP makes a point about marketing hype that neglects lignin factor, and
here's Breathingcolor.com on hype that pushes cotton Vs
alpha-cellulose. Should especially concern people who use Wilhelm lore
to market their prints: 

-----------

A recent debate among the digital printmaking community is whether the
prevailing use of expensive, 100% cotton-rag base-material
(hereinafter referred to as "R" for "Rag") is good strategy now that
far less-expensive, "quality-equivalent" alternatives exist. The
debatable question is this: If quality-equivalent alternatives to R
exist and are implemented, will they or will they not retain the same
sales numbers? The only way to answer this question objectively is to
find a quality-equivalent alternative to R, and then compare the
measurable product-attributes that contribute to each particular
product's sale-ability. A good example of a "quality-equivalent
alternative" is an archival alpha cellulose paper. Alpha cellulose is
a high grade wood pulp that is acid and lignin free (hereinafter
referred to as "AC"). It can typically be purchased at half the cost
of R and in some cases even less than that. Because digital
printmakers are recognizing the opportunity to cut their costs in half
by using a quality-equivalent alternative to R, AC is rapidly gaining
popularity. A specific AC paper may be considered a quality-equivalent
to R, when its inkjet receptive coating can reproduce equal or better
color-gamut, detail (dot precision/gain), and longevity by comparison.
It is a measurable fact that industry-leading AC papers can reproduce
color and detail as well as industry-leading R papers. The explanation
for this is simple; color gamut and detail are not determined by the
base material, R or AC. Rather, these properties are solely determined
by the inkjet receptive coating which can be applied to any base
material/substrate. In fact, a number AC papers with equal or superior
color-gamut and detail to R are already widely available.
The issue of longevity is also measurable and has been documented by
well-known testing facilities namely the Wilhelm Research Institute.
(http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/WIR_Ep9600_2003_07_26.pdf) This
page on Wilhelm's website suggests that base paper materials alone,
are not a clear indicator of a paper's potential lifespan. For
example, Epson's alpha cellulose, which is acid free, lignin free,
buffered wood-pulp fine art paper called "Epson Watercolor Paper -
Radiant White (Non-R)" has permanence results of greater than 98 years
under glass, where as "Epson Velvet Fine Art Paper (R)" has permanence
results of only 61 years under glass, and "Epson Somerset Velvet Fine
Art Paper (R)" has permanence results of 62 years under glass.

Re: [Digital BW] Marketing hype for cotton.

2007-04-06 by Bruce Watson

djon43 wrote:
> HP makes a point about marketing hype that neglects lignin factor, and
> here's Breathingcolor.com on hype that pushes cotton Vs
> alpha-cellulose. Should especially concern people who use Wilhelm lore
> to market their prints: 
>   
I'm not picking on anyone here, least of all djon43. Let that be said.

But I have to ask the group members who are harping on alpha cellulose 
some questions: are you the same people who have been begging for inkjet 
papers that replicate that air-dried F surface darkroom paper look? And 
have you been begging for it to be less expensive? And are you aware 
that all the excellent darkroom papers of the 20th century were alpha 
cellulose?

Those old Adams, Weston, et al prints that everyone loves so much on 
Kodak, Ilford, Agfa, etc. papers are alpha cellulose, not cotton rag. 
They seem to be holding up rather well. And they certainly seem to be 
holding their value.

I for one would love to see more alpha cellulose papers on the market.
--
Bruce Watson

Re: [Digital BW] Marketing hype for cotton.

2007-04-06 by djon43

> >   
> I'm not picking on anyone here, least of all djon43. Let that be said.

Thanks! I needed that!

My only alpha cellulose experience is with Moab Kayenta and one of the
Inkjetart.com house brands, whose surface was a little rougher.
Neither is as perfectly smooth as EEM, so more handsome to some, less
to others. Both come out of the box as white as EEM and have stayed
whiter through my short experience. 

Both Moab and Inkjetart suggest these as "proofing" papers, which
might have to do with their lust for the bigger dollar products. Think
that's possible? 

The latest inkjet photo papers have become ridiculously more expensive
than the silver papers from the same companies. Marketing by PT Barnum! 

> 
> But I have to ask the group members who are harping on alpha cellulose 
> some questions: are you the same people who have been begging for
inkjet 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> papers that replicate that air-dried F surface darkroom paper look? And 
> have you been begging for it to be less expensive? And are you aware 
> that all the excellent darkroom papers of the 20th century were alpha 
> cellulose?
> 
> Those old Adams, Weston, et al prints that everyone loves so much on 
> Kodak, Ilford, Agfa, etc. papers are alpha cellulose, not cotton rag. 
> They seem to be holding up rather well. And they certainly seem to be 
> holding their value.
> 
> I for one would love to see more alpha cellulose papers on the market.
> --
> Bruce Watson
>

Re: [Digital BW] Marketing hype for cotton.

2007-04-06 by Richard Smallfield

At 06:15 AM Saturday 4/7/2007, you wrote:
>For
>example, Epson's alpha cellulose, which is acid free, lignin free,
>buffered wood-pulp fine art paper called "Epson Watercolor Paper -
>Radiant White (Non-R)" has permanence results of greater than 98 years
>under glass, where as "Epson Velvet Fine Art Paper (R)" has permanence
>results of only 61 years under glass, and "Epson Somerset Velvet Fine
>Art Paper (R)" has permanence results of 62 years under glass.

That is very interesting indeed - I'd always avoided it in favour of Epson Velvet because, after enquiring on this list about its yellowing properties, I was told it was similar to EEM. Maybe I should try some as it's dirt cheap.

thanks very much,
Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 

   "Talent does what it can; genius does what it must." 
   --Edward George Bulwer-Lytton (1803-1873)

Re: [Digital BW] Marketing hype for cotton.

2007-04-06 by Richard Smallfield

Interestingly, the same Wilhelm article gives EEM more longevity than Epson Velvet - something's wrong here!

Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 

   "Go on, get out.  Last words are for fools who haven't said enough."
   --Karl Marx's lasty words to his housekeeper

Re: [Digital BW] Marketing hype for cotton.

2007-04-06 by Richard Smallfield

At 06:15 AM Saturday 4/7/2007, you wrote:
>Epson's alpha cellulose, which is acid free, lignin free,
>buffered wood-pulp fine art paper called "Epson Watercolor Paper -
>Radiant White (Non-R)"

I've been able to find nothing from Epson that states that Watercolour Radiant White is Alpha Cellulose - but the site quotes Wilhelm's figures that it has a longer life than Epson Velvet.

UltraSmooth Fine Art Paper 108 years
Epson Velvet Fine Art Paper 61 years
Watercolor Paper Radiant White 92 years
Enhanced Matte Paper 76 years
PremierArt™ Matte Scrapbook Photo Paper for Epson 108 years In progress

Interesting.

Richard 
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 

   "Men are conservatives when they are least vigorous,
   or when they are most luxurious.  They are conservatives 
   after dinner."
   --Ralph Waldo Emerson

Natural (not BW) alpha cellulose papers?

2007-04-06 by Richard Smallfield

Incidentally, why are all the alpha cellulose papers that I've heard of, bright white? Is there a natural one out there?

thanks,
Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 

   "Our chief want is someone who will inspire us to be what 
   we know we could be."
   --Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)

Re: Marketing hype for cotton.

2007-04-06 by Richard Orban

from my perspective (worth about $0.001) these ratings are 
meaningless.  I guarantee 20 years for my reprints 
(AAubreyBodine.com).  It's just not an important issue if you are 
printing for volume.  Epson Enhanced Matte, UltraSmooth and Primiere 
Art Canvas.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard 
Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> At 06:15 AM Saturday 4/7/2007, you wrote:
> >Epson's alpha cellulose, which is acid free, lignin free,
> >buffered wood-pulp fine art paper called "Epson Watercolor Paper -
> >Radiant White (Non-R)"
> 
> I've been able to find nothing from Epson that states that 
Watercolour Radiant White is Alpha Cellulose - but the site quotes 
Wilhelm's figures that it has a longer life than Epson Velvet.
> 
> UltraSmooth Fine Art Paper 108 years
> Epson Velvet Fine Art Paper 61 years
> Watercolor Paper Radiant White 92 years
> Enhanced Matte Paper 76 years
> PremierArt™ Matte Scrapbook Photo Paper for Epson 108 years In 
progress
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Richard 
> --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
> http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
> http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 
> 
>    "Men are conservatives when they are least vigorous,
>    or when they are most luxurious.  They are conservatives 
>    after dinner."
>    --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>

Re: [Digital BW] Natural (not BW) alpha cellulose papers?

2007-04-06 by amadou diallo

On 4/6/07, Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
> Incidentally, why are all the alpha cellulose papers that I've heard of,
> bright white? Is there a natural one out there?

Innova Soft Textured Natural White and Hahnemühle German Etching (some
obas, but certainly not a "bright white" surface) to name two.
-- 
amadou diallo
Author, Mastering Digital Black and White
www.masteringdigitalbwbook.com

RE: [Digital BW] Natural (not BW) alpha cellulose papers?

2007-04-06 by Paul Roark

Richard,

> ... why are all the alpha cellulose papers that I've heard of,
> bright white? 

The BW (Bright White) versions tend to be more popular.  I'd guess the
"natural" (non-OBA) papers are mostly in demand for fine art or other uses
where rag would have been traditionally preferred.  I suspect the alpha
cellulose papers have been limited in the fine art world due to wood-based
paper gaining a bad reputation in the past. 

>Is there a natural one out there?

Yes, but none that I am aware of and would recommend.

I'm now using PA MatteBW and printing down the brightener selectively.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.