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ABW vs. the world

ABW vs. the world

2007-06-02 by David Keenan

I have made many prints on an Epson R2400 using ABW mode and now that I have
a 3800, I continue to rely on ABW.

With my new 3800, I profiled all my papers over (too many) hours using the
"extended gray" feature of the latest version of PrintFix Pro and did some
print comparisons. The ABW prints were better in my (and other) opinions.
The shadows were cleaner for sure.

I haven't used my copy of QTR since my 2200 died and I replaced it with a
R2400.

Still for some reason I feel inadequate even though I am quite happy with
the prints I make especially on Innova F-type paper...

My burning question is why do other printers find using ICC profiles,
dedicated inksets, QTR , etc. valuable and spend so much time with  it all?
Are their prints that much better then what the Epson driver can do in ABW
to make all the extra work (hassle, in my opinion) worth it?

Or do these printers have an inherent "tinkerers mentality" (that I clearly
lack) that makes this fun for them and that's why they choose the extra
effort?

Bottomline -- does this effort show up in the prints?

Dave.


-- 
Portfolio: www.david-keenan.com/portfolio
Web Site: www.david-keenan.com
2007 PAW: www.david-keenan.com/paw


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] ABW vs. the world

2007-06-02 by Bruce Watson

David Keenan wrote:
> My burning question is why do other printers find using ICC profiles,
> dedicated inksets, QTR , etc. valuable and spend so much time with  it all? Are their prints that much better then what the Epson driver can do in ABW to make all the extra work (hassle, in my opinion) worth it?
How do you define "that much better?" What do you value in a print? What 
print surfaces to you require? How much Dmax is enough? How smooth is 
smooth?

Your question is too open ended for there to be a definitive answer. One 
person's smooth is another person's grainy. One person's open and airy 
highlights is another person's burned-out highlights. One person's 
neutral is another person's green cast and yet another person's magenta 
cast. One person's black is another person's dark gray.

The bottom line is, if ABW is giving you results that you like and that 
you don't have an urge to improve, then use it and be happy.
--
Bruce Watson

RE: [Digital BW] ABW vs. the world

2007-06-02 by Eric Neilsen

David, I can only speak from my perspective, so.

 

For sure there are tinkers out there that are always looking for the magic
bullet. They would not be looking if they hadn't already found it though. We
all hopefully have a vision that we would like to see on paper and to that
end we are all tinkers. The ABW mode with the newer Epson printers can make
some darn nice prints if you get in and tinker a little with tone, density,
etc. so that it has been some what perfected.  "The evident characteristic
of the Advanced B&W mode is the almost perfect linearity" from Giorgio
Trucco comments on Digital Outback.  This was also supported by Roy's
posting the other day where he posted the various ink output from both color
and ABW mode. To correct for the excess color ink usage a well made ICC
profile may be the answer. It seems that your profile is lacking is shadow
detail? Is that what you mean by cleaner? Shadow contrast with detail? I am
no expert on PFP and I can agree with you that while they give you the
control over split toning a bit of tweaking is needed to continue with the
punch at the bottom of the scale. A flaw in the default of PFP or just a
preference that we don't share? Or lack of knowledge of the program? 

 

It sounds like you spent some time getting ABW to perform well, as did I. Do
I use those setting that I developed? Sure do. Why?, because they work and
with limited time, I have yet to come up with a better solution with PFP and
extended grays.   

 

The over riding issue for some is permanence and they feel that some color
pigments just don't provide the required time in this realm. Others are
putting their trust in this ink set or that ink set. Why? Faith in the
research and marketing hype? There is also the issue of control over the
image. If you make it through dedicated practices that you understand and
can manipulate there is for some a higher level of satisfaction in the end
product. 

 

Eric  

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Keenan
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:29 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] ABW vs. the world

 

I have made many prints on an Epson R2400 using ABW mode and now that I have
a 3800, I continue to rely on ABW.

With my new 3800, I profiled all my papers over (too many) hours using the
"extended gray" feature of the latest version of PrintFix Pro and did some
print comparisons. The ABW prints were better in my (and other) opinions.
The shadows were cleaner for sure.

I haven't used my copy of QTR since my 2200 died and I replaced it with a
R2400.

Still for some reason I feel inadequate even though I am quite happy with
the prints I make especially on Innova F-type paper...

My burning question is why do other printers find using ICC profiles,
dedicated inksets, QTR , etc. valuable and spend so much time with it all?
Are their prints that much better then what the Epson driver can do in ABW
to make all the extra work (hassle, in my opinion) worth it?

Or do these printers have an inherent "tinkerers mentality" (that I clearly
lack) that makes this fun for them and that's why they choose the extra
effort?

Bottomline -- does this effort show up in the prints?

Dave.

-- 
Portfolio: www.david-keenan.com/portfolio
Web Site: www.david-keenan.com
2007 PAW: www.david-keenan.com/paw

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] ABW vs. the world

2007-06-02 by Ernst Dinkla

There's little wrong with ABW but adding from time to time a 
custom QTR profile to it at least gives some consistency in 
the tone range. You may call that tinkering. There could be 
some gain in Dmax with a RIP if you can not find a suitable 
paper profile in the ABW mode of the Epson driver for the 
third party paper you want to use. You may call that tinkering.

Right now I'm using a HP Z3100. It has ABW as well. Some 
paper settings actually use a quad set, the rest is based on 
3 grey inks. The inks are really neutral. You can get a HP 
B&W profile for HM HPRBrightWhite. The printer has 
integrated calibration so consistency is guaranteed. I've 
made a QTR profile for that ABW driver, just a bit more tone 
range. I like the ease and consistent results of that 
printer and its ABW mode but I have not forgotten what QTR 
could deliver.


Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

RE: [Digital BW] ABW vs. the world- Piezo?

2007-06-03 by gcwagner

Lots of talk about ABW and QTR is anyone using Piezo and is it better than
Epson for BW?
GaryW
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ernst
Dinkla
  Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 12:33 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] ABW vs. the world


  There's little wrong with ABW but adding from time to time a
  custom QTR profile to it at least gives some consistency in

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Re: [Digital BW] ABW vs. the world- Piezo?

2007-06-03 by Eric Chan

I'm not sure about the other Epson K3 printers, but one thing that
I've noticed with the ABW mode on the 3800 is that d-max is quite a
bit better (both visually noticeable as well as measurable). Min L*
for PK paper on the 3800 is typically in the 5 to 6 range for color,
but in the 2-3 range for ABW. Matte papers vary a bit more in their
density capabilities, but the results are similar (L* = 16 for Velvet
Fine Art in color, L* = 14 in ABW). This doesn't by itself translate
to better shadow detail, but it does give you a bit more tonal range
in the print to play with.

FWIW, I build my own profiles for the ABW mode and I've been pleased
with going that route. The only time I will print in RGB mode is when
I want to do a split tone or something of that nature (e.g., warm
midtones, neutral highlights).

Eric

Re: [Digital BW] ABW vs. the world- Piezo?

2007-06-03 by Michael King

Eric,

That's true on the 4800 as well, ABW gets to a better dmax than RGB.

What approach are you using for profiling ABW?

Mike


On 03/06/07, Eric Chan <madmanchan2000@...> wrote:
>
>   I'm not sure about the other Epson K3 printers, but one thing that
> I've noticed with the ABW mode on the 3800 is that d-max is quite a
> bit better (both visually noticeable as well as measurable). Min L*
> for PK paper on the 3800 is typically in the 5 to 6 range for color,
> but in the 2-3 range for ABW. Matte papers vary a bit more in their
> density capabilities, but the results are similar (L* = 16 for Velvet
> Fine Art in color, L* = 14 in ABW). This doesn't by itself translate
> to better shadow detail, but it does give you a bit more tonal range
> in the print to play with.
>
> FWIW, I build my own profiles for the ABW mode and I've been pleased
> with going that route. The only time I will print in RGB mode is when
> I want to do a split tone or something of that nature (e.g., warm
> midtones, neutral highlights).
>
> Eric
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-04 by steveh0607

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David Keenan" <ausdlk@...> 
wrote:
>I've had the 2400 for about four months now and I love it. When I want a neutral or toned 
B&W print I use ABW. I can't measure Dmax but since I use both RC and "Fiber Glossy" 
papers black is always black. On prints that have a classic bell curve histogram I see a 
smooth transition from black to grey to white. 

Although it only has two presets for warm and cool (really cold I think), it's been fun 
coming up with my own custom tones. For example, try Horizontal (+10), Vertical (-20) 
for a mildish selenium look.

This printer has taken a lot of angst out of printing for me and for that I'm grateful. For 
those who like to "tinker" - tinker away. In the end it all comes down to the print. When we 
look at a finished print and it gives us that relaxed feeling of satisfaction, the method we 
use to get there doesn't matter.

Steve
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I have made many prints on an Epson R2400 using ABW mode and now that I have
> a 3800, I continue to rely on ABW.
> 
> With my new 3800, I profiled all my papers over (too many) hours using the
> "extended gray" feature of the latest version of PrintFix Pro and did some
> print comparisons. The ABW prints were better in my (and other) opinions.
> The shadows were cleaner for sure.
> 
> I haven't used my copy of QTR since my 2200 died and I replaced it with a
> R2400.
> 
> Still for some reason I feel inadequate even though I am quite happy with
> the prints I make especially on Innova F-type paper...
> 
> My burning question is why do other printers find using ICC profiles,
> dedicated inksets, QTR , etc. valuable and spend so much time with  it all?
> Are their prints that much better then what the Epson driver can do in ABW
> to make all the extra work (hassle, in my opinion) worth it?
> 
> Or do these printers have an inherent "tinkerers mentality" (that I clearly
> lack) that makes this fun for them and that's why they choose the extra
> effort?
> 
> Bottomline -- does this effort show up in the prints?
> 
> Dave.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Portfolio: www.david-keenan.com/portfolio
> Web Site: www.david-keenan.com
> 2007 PAW: www.david-keenan.com/paw
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] ABW vs. the world- Piezo?

2007-06-04 by Eric Chan

> That's true on the 4800 as well, ABW gets to a better dmax than RGB.
> 
> What approach are you using for profiling ABW?
> 
> Mike

Hi Mike,

I measure a gray target with my Eye-One Pro (using a given set of ABW
settings in the driver) and have written a custom software program for
building an ICC profile from the measurements. It is quite similar in
spirit to Roy Harrington's create-icc (which comes with QTR). However,
I wrote my own so that I could experiment with different ways of
remapping the tones in the output.

For instance, I originally thought that a simple linear scaling of
lightness (L*) to the media's output range would be sufficient, but
some of the research shows this isn't the case (not intuitive to me).

Eric

Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by Michele Berti

Hi David, I am experiencing the same issues since I recently get a
3800. After profiling all my papers with PFP I made some comparisons
and although prints made with PFP profiles (with extended grays target
embedded) looks nice I feel more comfortable with the ABW workflow. 

The only thing I missed with ABW is the ability to soft proofing and
profiling different papers. At the moment I discovered a way to
profile the ABW mode here:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html

and just started some testing. 

Does anyone tried to build his own profil to be used in the ABW mode? 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David Keenan"
<ausdlk@...> wrote:
>
> I have made many prints on an Epson R2400 using ABW mode and now
that I have
> a 3800, I continue to rely on ABW.
> 
> With my new 3800, I profiled all my papers over (too many) hours
using the
> "extended gray" feature of the latest version of PrintFix Pro and
did some
> print comparisons. The ABW prints were better in my (and other)
opinions.
> The shadows were cleaner for sure.
> 
> I haven't used my copy of QTR since my 2200 died and I replaced it
with a
> R2400.
> 
> Still for some reason I feel inadequate even though I am quite happy
with
> the prints I make especially on Innova F-type paper...
> 
> My burning question is why do other printers find using ICC profiles,
> dedicated inksets, QTR , etc. valuable and spend so much time with 
it all?
> Are their prints that much better then what the Epson driver can do
in ABW
> to make all the extra work (hassle, in my opinion) worth it?
> 
> Or do these printers have an inherent "tinkerers mentality" (that I
clearly
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> lack) that makes this fun for them and that's why they choose the extra
> effort?
> 
> Bottomline -- does this effort show up in the prints?
> 
> Dave.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Portfolio: www.david-keenan.com/portfolio
> Web Site: www.david-keenan.com
> 2007 PAW: www.david-keenan.com/paw
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by Ernst Dinkla

Michele Berti wrote:

> 
> Does anyone tried to build his own profil to be used in the ABW mode? 
> 

Steve Kale did for many months already. QTR profile. I'm 
doing more or less the same on the ABW mode of the HP Z3100.

Check Steve Kale's messages on this forum.


Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/6/07 4:32:26 AM, michele@... writes:


> Hi David, I am experiencing the same issues since I recently get a
> 3800. After profiling all my papers with PFP I made some comparisons
> and although prints made with PFP profiles (with extended grays target
> embedded) looks nice I feel more comfortable with the ABW workflow.
> 
> The only thing I missed with ABW is the ability to soft proofing and
> profiling different papers. At the moment I discovered a way to
> profile the ABW mode here:
> 
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html
> 
> and just started some testing.
> 
> Does anyone tried to build his own profil to be used in the ABW mode?
> 

Lets see, where do I begin? Roy Harrington, whose software this is about, it 
on this list, so he can respond directly. I have a few comments. One is that 
this piece says you need an EyeOne to profile AWB mode. Not true, you can to it 
much more affordably with PrintFIX PRO to read the patches and produce the 
measurement sets for QTR. Unfortunately Roy still has his spectro-basesd 
measurement materials in a folder labeled EyeOne in QTR, and his directions written 
for an EyeOne, even though we've gone out of our way to list export modes 
specifically for CreateICC and QTR in our software. Oh well.

Other comments about the article: It raves about the neutrality of AWB, then 
mentions that its as much as five b* units off neutral in some areas, with no 
real way to deal with that. This is why I prefer profiling the color mode, and 
getting a* and b* values within one unit if neutral, plus full control of how 
I deal with paper white, paper brighteners etc.

As for the "color versus AWB" graph, my PrintFIX PRO 2 color profiled 
grayramps are more linear than the AWB plot in this graph, so its a matter of 
comparing a bad color output to a good AWB one. There are many ways to skin a cat, 
but it bothers me when people dismiss our methods out of hand for the wrong 
reasons. If you are a fanatic for one tenth of a point more density in blacks, or 
one percent less yellow in light grays, than those are actual reasons. All the 
talk about better shadow detail, on the other hand, is just wrong, I can get 
as   much shadow detail as I want, with full control of it, from the 
PFP2/color mode method. 

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by ausdlk

>All the talk about better shadow detail, on the other hand, is just 
>wrong, I can get as much shadow detail as I want, with full control of 
>it, from the PFP2/color mode method.

This may be true. But after carefully profiling with 700+ large
patches printed over four pages of 13x19" paper and then comparing a
ABW print vs. the PFP2 color print, the shadows are noticeably more
blocked up in the PFP2 print.

I have already written that I am not a "tinkerer printer". I was
disappointed that this process doesn't appear to be a one shot deal as
I had hoped it would be.

The thought of having to reread the patches, mess with adjustment
sliders, reprint, compare, and repeat (or whatever I have to do to
make things better) seems too subjective and has discouraged me.

Dave.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by wkm@kauaiphotos.biz

No need to re-read the patches unless you feel you made an error with the original readings. You can use the same patch readings to create a new profile after using the adjustment sliders. 

Walt
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>The thought of having to reread the patches, mess with adjustment
>sliders, reprint, compare, and repeat (or whatever I have to do to
>make things better) seems too subjective and has discouraged me.

[Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by Michele Berti

I've searched the forum here for Steve's workflow but really can't
find his post! Do you remember the post's subject?

Michele

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Michele Berti wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Does anyone tried to build his own profil to be used in the ABW mode? 
> > 
> 
> Steve Kale did for many months already. QTR profile. I'm 
> doing more or less the same on the ABW mode of the HP Z3100.
> 
> Check Steve Kale's messages on this forum.
> 
> 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/6/07 1:34:51 PM, ausdlk@... writes:


> 
> This may be true. But after carefully profiling with 700+ large
> patches printed over four pages of 13x19" paper and then comparing a
> ABW print vs. the PFP2 color print, the shadows are noticeably more
> blocked up in the PFP2 print.
> 

I assume you did not use the shadow detail slider to dial in the degree of 
shadow detail you wanted.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/6/07 1:34:51 PM, ausdlk@... writes:


> 
> The thought of having to reread the patches, mess with adjustment
> sliders, reprint, compare, and repeat (or whatever I have to do to
> make things better) seems too subjective and has discouraged me.
> 

Selecting your existing measurement sets in the popdowns (if you are building 
profiles for B&W I assume you are adding the extended grays target), choosing 
"plus 5" in the shadow detail slider, and waiting five seconds for it to 
build a new profile is not much of a hardship, give it a shot.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by Ernst Dinkla

Michele Berti wrote:
> I've searched the forum here for Steve's workflow but really can't
> find his post! Do you remember the post's subject?
> 
> Michele


Steve's messages on that subject start around 15-11-2005. I 
think the same time QTR got his profile creation 
application. There must be a place where the workflow is 
described but if you check the Quadtone Rip profile creation 
map + the manual and forget the linearisng as ABW doesn't 
allow that but use the profile creation by printing targets 
with ABW and make a profile based on that, you are halfway. 
Then apply that B&W paper profile in PS for printing and for 
the softproof, color in the softproof is only showing what 
the color setting in ABW was when you made the 
target>profile so doesn't influence the print color, for 
that you need the same color setting in ABW again. You need 
to have an embedded profile in your greyscale images while 
editing the file, Gamma 2.2 or QTR Gray Lab is best. With 
greyscale RGB files a color profile like AdobRGB which is 
2.2 G too. Monitor calibrated too. This is a profiled 
workflow but for greyscale in this case.


Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

[Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-06 by Michele Berti

Tobie, I made a profile reading the 255 patches + the extended grays
on Hahnemuhle FineArt Pearl. I then opened the 21steps wedge I found
in the QTR installation, printed using the PFP profile and read the
patches; here you go my readings:

96.95	1.46	-0.67
93.43	1.32	-0.45
89.92	1.51	-1.06
86.71	1.62	0.09
82.82	1.89	-0.56
79.42	1.79	-0.89
75.89	1.59	-0.62
71.71	2.01	-0.60
67.54	1.68	-0.85
63.87	1.59	-0.65
59.69	1.66	0.08
55.43	1.85	-0.27
50.76	1.73	-1.00
46.06	2.18	-0.70
41.10	2.30	-1.37
36.84	1.59	-0.44
31.01	0.82	-0.29
25.51	0.89	-0.19
19.37	0.14	-0.22
13.19	0.53	-0.39
10.11	0.84	-0.23

I also printed the same 21step wedge on the same sheet of paper using
the ABW mode of my 3800 selecting Color Tone = Neutral and Tone =
Darker in the printer driver (I also disabled color management in PS).
Here you go my readings:

97.15	1.50	-0.65
93.29	1.68	-0.30
88.66	1.79	-0.29
84.00	1.63	-0.96
79.24	1.14	-1.27
74.56	1.17	-1.27
70.01	1.04	-1.30
65.44	0.89	-1.07
60.79	0.78	-1.22
56.58	0.68	-1.43
52.18	0.56	-1.37
47.61	0.50	-1.18
42.81	0.44	-0.80
38.06	0.24	-0.92
33.42	0.03	-0.44
28.45	0.04	-0.86
23.83	0.12	-0.74
19.66	0.05	-0.46
15.66	-0.03	-0.33
11.83	0.23	-0.02
7.42	-0.24	-0.90

Now, between the two, which one should be considerd more neutral? And
which one has deeper blacks?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 6/6/07 4:32:26 AM, michele@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Hi David, I am experiencing the same issues since I recently get a
> > 3800. After profiling all my papers with PFP I made some comparisons
> > and although prints made with PFP profiles (with extended grays target
> > embedded) looks nice I feel more comfortable with the ABW workflow.
> > 
> > The only thing I missed with ABW is the ability to soft proofing and
> > profiling different papers. At the moment I discovered a way to
> > profile the ABW mode here:
> > 
> > http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html
> > 
> > and just started some testing.
> > 
> > Does anyone tried to build his own profil to be used in the ABW mode?
> > 
> 
> Lets see, where do I begin? Roy Harrington, whose software this is
about, it 
> on this list, so he can respond directly. I have a few comments. One
is that 
> this piece says you need an EyeOne to profile AWB mode. Not true,
you can to it 
> much more affordably with PrintFIX PRO to read the patches and
produce the 
> measurement sets for QTR. Unfortunately Roy still has his
spectro-basesd 
> measurement materials in a folder labeled EyeOne in QTR, and his
directions written 
> for an EyeOne, even though we've gone out of our way to list export
modes 
> specifically for CreateICC and QTR in our software. Oh well.
> 
> Other comments about the article: It raves about the neutrality of
AWB, then 
> mentions that its as much as five b* units off neutral in some
areas, with no 
> real way to deal with that. This is why I prefer profiling the color
mode, and 
> getting a* and b* values within one unit if neutral, plus full
control of how 
> I deal with paper white, paper brighteners etc.
> 
> As for the "color versus AWB" graph, my PrintFIX PRO 2 color profiled 
> grayramps are more linear than the AWB plot in this graph, so its a
matter of 
> comparing a bad color output to a good AWB one. There are many ways
to skin a cat, 
> but it bothers me when people dismiss our methods out of hand for
the wrong 
> reasons. If you are a fanatic for one tenth of a point more density
in blacks, or 
> one percent less yellow in light grays, than those are actual
reasons. All the 
> talk about better shadow detail, on the other hand, is just wrong, I
can get 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> as   much shadow detail as I want, with full control of it, from the 
> PFP2/color mode method. 
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  See what's free at 
> http://www.aol.com.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-07 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/6/07 6:29:11 PM, michele@... writes:


> Tobie, I made a profile reading the 255 patches + the extended grays
> on Hahnemuhle FineArt Pearl. I then opened the 21steps wedge I found
> in the QTR installation, printed using the PFP profile and read the
> patches; here you go my readings:
> 

I've never seen this type of red bias in PFP2 profiles. Where did that 1.5 to 
2 points of red come from? The same device read the patches to build the 
profile as read the patches afterwards. If it had seen neutrals as red the first 
time, it would have neutralized them in the profile building. I've profiled 
numerous papers this way, and not seen this effect. Is the QTR target a neutral 
RGB file? What settings did you use in printing it, and what profile was tagged 
to it when it was printed?

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-07 by Michele Berti

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 6/6/07 6:29:11 PM, michele@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Tobie, I made a profile reading the 255 patches + the extended grays
> > on Hahnemuhle FineArt Pearl. I then opened the 21steps wedge I found
> > in the QTR installation, printed using the PFP profile and read the
> > patches; here you go my readings:
> > 
> 
> I've never seen this type of red bias in PFP2 profiles. Where did
that 1.5 to 
> 2 points of red come from? The same device read the patches to build
the 
> profile as read the patches afterwards. If it had seen neutrals as
red the first 
> time, it would have neutralized them in the profile building. I've
profiled 
> numerous papers this way, and not seen this effect. Is the QTR
target a neutral 
> RGB file? What settings did you use in printing it, and what profile
was tagged 
> to it when it was printed?
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 

No idea why this red bias. The QTR target is a Greyscale 8 bit file,
if you have QTR this file is under 

Programm Files/QuadToneRIP/Eye-One/Step-21-gray.tif

I just opened this file, PS warmed it was in a different color space,
I left it on its color space (don't color manage). Then Print With
Preview, picked the PFP profile I made, I selected Relative
Colorimetric and Black Point Compensation. In the printer driver I
pick Premium Glossy Photo Pager and 2880dpi (that was the setting I
used to print PFP targets). 

Now, how can I neutralize this PFP profile? And, at the same time, how
can I achieve deeper blacks (at least comparable to ones obtained with
the ABW printing mode)?

[Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-07 by Michele Berti

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Michele Berti wrote:
> > I've searched the forum here for Steve's workflow but really can't
> > find his post! Do you remember the post's subject?
> > 
> > Michele
> 
> 
> Steve's messages on that subject start around 15-11-2005. I 
> think the same time QTR got his profile creation 
> application. There must be a place where the workflow is 
> described but if you check the Quadtone Rip profile creation 
> map + the manual and forget the linearisng as ABW doesn't 
> allow that but use the profile creation by printing targets 
> with ABW and make a profile based on that, you are halfway. 
> Then apply that B&W paper profile in PS for printing and for 
> the softproof, color in the softproof is only showing what 
> the color setting in ABW was when you made the 
> target>profile so doesn't influence the print color, for 
> that you need the same color setting in ABW again. You need 
> to have an embedded profile in your greyscale images while 
> editing the file, Gamma 2.2 or QTR Gray Lab is best. With 
> greyscale RGB files a color profile like AdobRGB which is 
> 2.2 G too. Monitor calibrated too. This is a profiled 
> workflow but for greyscale in this case.
> 
> 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
> 


So the work flow should be as follows:

1) Print the 21step target using the ABW (in PS we must pick "No Color
Management";

2) In the print driver choose the media setting based on the paper
type (i.e. Enhanced Matte for matte papers);

3) Use the PFP measurement tool to read the patches (checking "QTR
Format Override" and "CreateICC") and to export the txt file;

4) create the icc with the QTR-Create-ICC application;

5) images to be printed must be in greyscale 8-bit with attached the
"gray-lab.icc" profile;

6) pick the qtr-icc profile in the print with preview dialog box
(color handling "Let PS determine colors"), rendering intent "Perceptual"

7) in the printer driver pick ABW and pick the same media setting
usetd to print the targed.

Is this ok or do I miss something?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-07 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/7/07 3:14:56 AM, michele@... writes:


> No idea why this red bias. The QTR target is a Greyscale 8 bit file,
> if you have QTR this file is under
> 
> Programm Files/QuadToneRIP/Eye-One/Step-21-gray.tif
> 
> I just opened this file, PS warmed it was in a different color space,
> I left it on its color space (don't color manage). Then Print With
> Preview, picked the PFP profile I made, I selected Relative
> Colorimetric and Black Point Compensation. In the printer driver I
> pick Premium Glossy Photo Pager and 2880dpi (that was the setting I
> used to print PFP targets).
> 
Well, for starters we recommend you try Saturation intent for your B&W 
printing, and always recommend BPC be turned off with PrintFIX PRO profiles: our 
profiles are designed for use without BPC, since its not available in all 
applications.
> 
> Now, how can I neutralize this PFP profile?
> 
Try printing at the settings above, and see if that changes your color 
balance... the other fix, of course, is to move the red to green color adjustment 
slider a couple of points away from red, but that should not actually be 
necessary.

>  And, at the same time, how
> can I achieve deeper blacks (at least comparable to ones obtained with
> the ABW printing mode)?
> 
> My guess is that its the Black Point Compensation thats the culprit here. 
Even though the color mode is not always capable of as dense a black as AWB mode 
(it varies with the paper and the media setting) there shouldn't be a huge 
difference. So try unchecking BPC, and then (if you are willing to start from 
scratch again) go to PFP's Media Setting Check screen, and see if there is any 
media setting that will offer a deeper black. If so, reprint your targets at 
that setting, and see what that offers.

But even without reprofiling, I suspect you will get deeper blacks and more 
neutral grays just by turning BPC off, and using the Saturation intent. One or 
two quick slider adjustments would be the most you'd need, even if that didn't 
zero out your neutrality. One more tip:   if you tweak your neutrality, try 
to err to the red side of neutral. Fractional red values are quite acceptable, 
but green values, even fractional ones, are unpleasant.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-07 by Ernst Dinkla

Michele Berti wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
> <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>> Michele Berti wrote:
>>> I've searched the forum here for Steve's workflow but really can't
>>> find his post! Do you remember the post's subject?
>>>
>>> Michele
>>
>> Steve's messages on that subject start around 15-11-2005. I 
>> think the same time QTR got his profile creation 
>> application. There must be a place where the workflow is 
>> described but if you check the Quadtone Rip profile creation 
>> map + the manual and forget the linearisng as ABW doesn't 
>> allow that but use the profile creation by printing targets 
>> with ABW and make a profile based on that, you are halfway. 
>> Then apply that B&W paper profile in PS for printing and for 
>> the softproof, color in the softproof is only showing what 
>> the color setting in ABW was when you made the 
>> target>profile so doesn't influence the print color, for 
>> that you need the same color setting in ABW again. You need 
>> to have an embedded profile in your greyscale images while 
>> editing the file, Gamma 2.2 or QTR Gray Lab is best. With 
>> greyscale RGB files a color profile like AdobRGB which is 
>> 2.2 G too. Monitor calibrated too. This is a profiled 
>> workflow but for greyscale in this case.
>>
>>
>> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
>>
> 
> 
> So the work flow should be as follows:
> 
> 1) Print the 21step target using the ABW (in PS we must pick "No Color
> Management";
> 
> 2) In the print driver choose the media setting based on the paper
> type (i.e. Enhanced Matte for matte papers);
> 
> 3) Use the PFP measurement tool to read the patches (checking "QTR
> Format Override" and "CreateICC") and to export the txt file;

If that's the only colorimeter you have. I'm using the 
Spectrocam + the 4 x 21 random target and convert the 
measurements for QTR profiler: see my pages.

> 
> 4) create the icc with the QTR-Create-ICC application;
> 
> 5) images to be printed must be in greyscale 8-bit with attached the
> "gray-lab.icc" profile;

Or if you use neutral RGB files use the QTR RGB version + 
make QTR RGB greyscale paper profiles.

> 6) pick the qtr-icc profile in the print with preview dialog box
> (color handling "Let PS determine colors"), rendering intent "Perceptual"
> 
> 7) in the printer driver pick ABW and pick the same media setting
> usetd to print the targed.
> 
> Is this ok or do I miss something? 

Must work. Of course you could check what the difference in 
print  is with the method you used before.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

[Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-07 by jrschwaller

Hi, CD...

Would you use that "plus 5" only for a profile being used for 
B&W....or would you recommend trying it for a profile which was used 
for both Color and B&W?

John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 6/6/07 1:34:51 PM, ausdlk@... writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > The thought of having to reread the patches, mess with adjustment
> > sliders, reprint, compare, and repeat (or whatever I have to do to
> > make things better) seems too subjective and has discouraged me.
> > 
> 
> Selecting your existing measurement sets in the popdowns (if you 
are building 
> profiles for B&W I assume you are adding the extended grays 
target), choosing 
> "plus 5" in the shadow detail slider, and waiting five seconds for 
it to 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> build a new profile is not much of a hardship, give it a shot.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  See what's free at 
> http://www.aol.com.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-07 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/7/07 9:49:52 AM, jrs2@... writes:


> Would you use that "plus 5" only for a profile being used for
> B&W....or would you recommend trying it for a profile which was used
> for both Color and B&W?
> 
> 

I use it in most all art paper profiles, meaning both matte art papers (and 
any other matte papers, for that matter, but all my matte papers are art papers 
<G>) and the new "gloss art papers", meaning Silver Rag, F-Type Gloss, etc. 
This really has to do with the difference between gamma 2.2 and L*. If you 
print a Gamma 2.2 gray ramp, read it, and graph the L* values from your Lab 
readings, the shadows appear clogged. If you run the 5 point adjustment, it fixes 
that clog. Of course, the clog wasn't there in the first place in gamma 2.2. So 
an L* workflow might fix this in advance. But whatever the cause or percieved 
cause, I prefer the more open shadows in both color and B&W, and I usually use 
the same profile for both anyways, so the adjustment applies to both. Sorry 
for the tangent... <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-07 by Michele Berti

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 6/7/07 3:14:56 AM, michele@... writes:
> 
> 
> > No idea why this red bias. The QTR target is a Greyscale 8 bit file,
> > if you have QTR this file is under
> > 
> > Programm Files/QuadToneRIP/Eye-One/Step-21-gray.tif
> > 
> > I just opened this file, PS warmed it was in a different color space,
> > I left it on its color space (don't color manage). Then Print With
> > Preview, picked the PFP profile I made, I selected Relative
> > Colorimetric and Black Point Compensation. In the printer driver I
> > pick Premium Glossy Photo Pager and 2880dpi (that was the setting I
> > used to print PFP targets).
> > 
> Well, for starters we recommend you try Saturation intent for your B&W 
> printing, and always recommend BPC be turned off with PrintFIX PRO
profiles: our 
> profiles are designed for use without BPC, since its not available
in all 
> applications.
> > 
> > Now, how can I neutralize this PFP profile?
> > 
> Try printing at the settings above, and see if that changes your color 
> balance... the other fix, of course, is to move the red to green
color adjustment 
> slider a couple of points away from red, but that should not
actually be 
> necessary.
> 
> >  And, at the same time, how
> > can I achieve deeper blacks (at least comparable to ones obtained with
> > the ABW printing mode)?
> > 
> > My guess is that its the Black Point Compensation thats the
culprit here. 
> Even though the color mode is not always capable of as dense a black
as AWB mode 
> (it varies with the paper and the media setting) there shouldn't be
a huge 
> difference. So try unchecking BPC, and then (if you are willing to
start from 
> scratch again) go to PFP's Media Setting Check screen, and see if
there is any 
> media setting that will offer a deeper black. If so, reprint your
targets at 
> that setting, and see what that offers.
> 
> But even without reprofiling, I suspect you will get deeper blacks
and more 
> neutral grays just by turning BPC off, and using the Saturation
intent. One or 
> two quick slider adjustments would be the most you'd need, even if
that didn't 
> zero out your neutrality. One more tip:   if you tweak your
neutrality, try 
> to err to the red side of neutral. Fractional red values are quite
acceptable, 
> but green values, even fractional ones, are unpleasant.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  See what's free at 
> http://www.aol.com.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Just reprinted the target using Saturatin as rendering intent and
unchecking BPB. Here you go:

1	0	97.15	1.55	-0.68
2	5	93.53	1.37	-0.28
3	10	89.71	1.46	-0.82
4	15	86.01	1.46	0.25
5	20	82.09	1.85	-0.48
6	25	78.40	1.64	-0.78
7	30	74.49	1.29	-0.77
8	35	70.06	1.73	-0.70
9	40	65.75	1.38	-0.71
10	45	61.85	1.53	-1.09
11	50	57.60	1.43	0.19
12	55	52.73	1.47	-0.31
13	60	47.96	0.90	-0.58
14	65	43.04	1.41	-0.12
15	70	38.12	1.06	-0.23
16	75	33.09	0.40	1.19
17	80	27.02	0.24	1.26
18	85	20.41	0.16	0.67
19	90	14.15	0.34	0.57
20	95	7.98	-0.23	0.50
21	100	6.67	0.24	0.97

Blacks are deeper but reddish cast still important. Isn't it? To
facilitate comparation here a chart with Befor/After LAB_A and LAB_B
values:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/micheleberti/534796846/

Now the PFP profile is a combination of two readings (colored patches
and extended grays) and you suggested to tweak the  red to green...
where? Sinca I can't pick the composite profile from PFP software I
wonder if I should move red to green in the profile for color patches
or in the one for extended grays?

[Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-07 by Michele Berti

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 6/7/07 3:14:56 AM, michele@... writes:
> 
> 
> > No idea why this red bias. The QTR target is a Greyscale 8 bit file,
> > if you have QTR this file is under
> > 
> > Programm Files/QuadToneRIP/Eye-One/Step-21-gray.tif
> > 
> > I just opened this file, PS warmed it was in a different color space,
> > I left it on its color space (don't color manage). Then Print With
> > Preview, picked the PFP profile I made, I selected Relative
> > Colorimetric and Black Point Compensation. In the printer driver I
> > pick Premium Glossy Photo Pager and 2880dpi (that was the setting I
> > used to print PFP targets).
> > 
> Well, for starters we recommend you try Saturation intent for your B&W 
> printing, and always recommend BPC be turned off with PrintFIX PRO
profiles: our 
> profiles are designed for use without BPC, since its not available
in all 
> applications.
> > 
> > Now, how can I neutralize this PFP profile?
> > 
> Try printing at the settings above, and see if that changes your color 
> balance... the other fix, of course, is to move the red to green
color adjustment 
> slider a couple of points away from red, but that should not
actually be 
> necessary.
> 
> >  And, at the same time, how
> > can I achieve deeper blacks (at least comparable to ones obtained with
> > the ABW printing mode)?
> > 
> > My guess is that its the Black Point Compensation thats the
culprit here. 
> Even though the color mode is not always capable of as dense a black
as AWB mode 
> (it varies with the paper and the media setting) there shouldn't be
a huge 
> difference. So try unchecking BPC, and then (if you are willing to
start from 
> scratch again) go to PFP's Media Setting Check screen, and see if
there is any 
> media setting that will offer a deeper black. If so, reprint your
targets at 
> that setting, and see what that offers.
> 
> But even without reprofiling, I suspect you will get deeper blacks
and more 
> neutral grays just by turning BPC off, and using the Saturation
intent. One or 
> two quick slider adjustments would be the most you'd need, even if
that didn't 
> zero out your neutrality. One more tip:   if you tweak your
neutrality, try 
> to err to the red side of neutral. Fractional red values are quite
acceptable, 
> but green values, even fractional ones, are unpleasant.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  See what's free at 
> http://www.aol.com.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Here you go the best I achieved trying tuning the varios settings in
PFP (pushed greens to +3):

L	a	b
97.49	1.56	-0.47
93.81	1.3	-0.01
90.24	1.4	-0.4
86.58	1.38	0.39
82.88	1.31	-0.29
79.4	1.12	-0.52
75.73	0.27	-0.62
71.43	1.09	-0.49
67.53	1.1	-0.1
63.86	0.63	0.03
59.51	0.71	0.7
54.54	1.01	0.38
49.58	0.53	-0.01
44.29	0.09	0.36
39.37	0.24	0.3
34.02	0.08	1.11
27.66	-0.49	1.61
20.79	-0.56	1.5
14.44	-0.64	1.28
8.13	-0.5	0.84
7.26	0.3	1.83


Can this be considered a good one? Blacks are still not as deep as I
wish ...

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-08 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/7/07 2:16:37 PM, michele@... writes:


> Blacks are deeper
> 
Thats an improvement on one of your two issues then...

>  but reddish cast still important. Isn't it?
> 

Thats also an improvement on the other. Its a very consistant 1 to 1.5 point 
red cast (down from over two points, as I recall), up to where the paper white 
comes in. I prefer a very consistant 0 to 0.5 point red cast, to be on the 
safe (nongreen) side of neutral. So at this point, I'd move the red/green slider 
a bit away from red. 

>  To
> facilitate comparation here a chart with Befor/After LAB_A and LAB_B
> values:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/micheleberti/534796846/
> 
> Now the PFP profile is a combination of two readings (colored patches
> and extended grays) and you suggested to tweak the  red to green...
> where?
> 
In the sliders on the Profile Settings screen. They effect the profile in 
total, even when it is built from two targets at once.

>  Sinca I can't pick the composite profile from PFP software I
> wonder if I should move red to green in the profile for color patches
> or in the one for extended grays?
> 
You seem to be under a misconception here. All profiles are built anew from 
the selected XML measurement set(s). So you simply select the same color and 
extended grays measurement sets again, in the lower part of that screen, then 
use the sliders on the next screen to make any adjustments you want. Then build 
the new profile version.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



**************************************
 See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-08 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/7/07 6:20:33 PM, michele@... writes:


> Here you go the best I achieved trying tuning the varios settings in
> PFP (pushed greens to +3):
> 
> L    a    b
> 97.49    1.56    -0.47
> 93.81    1.3    -0.01
> 90.24    1.4    -0.4
> 86.58    1.38    0.39
> 82.88    1.31    -0.29
> 79.4    1.12    -0.52
> 75.73    0.27    -0.62
> 71.43    1.09    -0.49
> 67.53    1.1    -0.1
> 63.86    0.63    0.03
> 59.51    0.71    0.7
> 54.54    1.01    0.38
> 49.58    0.53    -0.01
> 44.29    0.09    0.36
> 39.37    0.24    0.3
> 34.02    0.08    1.11
> 27.66    -0.49    1.61
> 20.79    -0.56    1.5
> 14.44    -0.64    1.28
> 8.13    -0.5    0.84
> 7.26    0.3    1.83
> 
> 
> 

What you were seeing last post was the gray ramp following paper white down 
very evenly (consistant addition of the paper white color element all the way 
down the gray ramp); thats what some users would want. Asking it to make grays 
that don't include the paper component as they move farther from white, as 
you've done here, creates a very even ramp from paper white down to neutral near 
black, with the paper white tint dropping off slowly. This is what other users 
might want. Still other users would want it neutral from the top, but that 
would require using neutral paper... <G>

Every time I make recommendations that add to the d-max of users prints, they 
want even more. I'd suggest using a different paper for two reasons then; to 
get rid of the paper tone, and to find one with a bit more d-max, though I'm 
sure you would then want a bit more d-max on that paper as well. <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com
www.colorvision.com



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RE: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-08 by Peter Oksen

So much talk about this ABW. I have an R1800 and as such no access to this
great tool. Now, why don't Epson make an ABW mode for the R1800 also??? Yes,
there is only one K (one each for glossy and matte), but as I understand it
ABW also uses color inks.

 

Peter

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-08 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/8/07 3:45:13 AM, oksen@... writes:


> So much talk about this ABW. I have an R1800 and as such no access to this
> great tool. Now, why don't Epson make an ABW mode for the R1800 also??? Yes,
> there is only one K (one each for glossy and matte), but as I understand it
> ABW also uses color inks.
> 

The R1800's neutral prints with OEM inks are so variable that a special tool 
for B&W would be like a speedometer on your tricycle.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


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RE: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-09 by Terry Ritz

Is this true for colour prints as well, made using Photoshop??

Terry.

CDTobie@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> and always recommend BPC be turned off with 
> PrintFIX PRO profiles: our 
> profiles are designed for use without BPC, since its not 
> available in all 
> applications.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-09 by Peter Oksen

David,

I gather your analogy is to say that the 1800 is very poor in making BW,
which, unfortunately, I have to agree to. However, if I understand correct,
you claim that your product PFP can make neutral gray prints from the 1800,
so why can�t Epson make a suitable print mode, driver or profile? Anyway, I
hope that the PFP can make neutral BW prints from the 1800, as I have just
ordered one�

 

Peter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: 8. juni 2007 15:55
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

 


In a message dated 6/8/07 3:45:13 AM, HYPERLINK
"mailto:oksen%40ruc.dk"oksen@... writes:

> So much talk about this ABW. I have an R1800 and as such no access to this
> great tool. Now, why don't Epson make an ABW mode for the R1800 also???
Yes,
> there is only one K (one each for glossy and matte), but as I understand
it
> ABW also uses color inks.
> 

The R1800's neutral prints with OEM inks are so variable that a special tool

for B&W would be like a speedometer on your tricycle.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
HYPERLINK "mailto:CDTobie%40colorvision.com"CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com

**************************************
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HYPERLINK "http://www.aol.com."http://www.aol.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07-06-2007
14:21


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07-06-2007
14:21
 


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[Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-09 by Tyler Boley

perhaps you can change the order if your primary interest is B&W, the 1800 may be the 
lowest on the list for that.
It functions with only one black ink, like days of old. It's essential purpose is good color 
printing. THat is why Epson didn't bother to put an "Advanced Black and While 
Mode" (ABW) in the 1800 driver.
The 2400 and newer generation printers use 2 to 4 blacks, and are more optimsed for 
B&W work out of the box.
Profiling software can only do so much and is a separate issue from the inking system of 
the printer.
Your option with the 1800 would be to  put in a 3rd party inkset more inclined to good 
B&W, at the expense of it's best color printing.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Oksen" <oksen@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> David,
> 
> I gather your analogy is to say that the 1800 is very poor in making BW,
> which, unfortunately, I have to agree to. However, if I understand correct,
> you claim that your product PFP can make neutral gray prints from the 1800,
> so why can't Epson make a suitable print mode, driver or profile? Anyway, I
> hope that the PFP can make neutral BW prints from the 1800, as I have just
> ordered one

> 
>  
> 
> Peter
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> CDTobie@...
> Sent: 8. juni 2007 15:55
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world
> 
>  
> 
> 
> In a message dated 6/8/07 3:45:13 AM, HYPERLINK
> "mailto:oksen%40ruc.dk"oksen@... writes:
> 
> > So much talk about this ABW. I have an R1800 and as such no access to this
> > great tool. Now, why don't Epson make an ABW mode for the R1800 also???
> Yes,
> > there is only one K (one each for glossy and matte), but as I understand
> it
> > ABW also uses color inks.
> > 
> 
> The R1800's neutral prints with OEM inks are so variable that a special tool
> 
> for B&W would be like a speedometer on your tricycle.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> HYPERLINK "mailto:CDTobie%40colorvision.com"CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> **************************************
> See what's free at 
> HYPERLINK "http://www.aol.com."http://www.aol.com.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07-06-2007
> 14:21
> 
> 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07-06-2007
> 14:21
>  
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-09 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/8/07 10:09:34 PM, t.ritz@... writes:


> Is this true for colour prints as well, made using Photoshop??
> 

Yes. Its true across the board. If you want the blackest possible blacks 
through your ColorVision generated profile, avoid BPC. It certainly can't make 
your blacks any darker (how could it?) but it can   make them weaker. 

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


**************************************
 See what's free at 
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-09 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/9/07 9:26:34 AM, oksen@... writes:


> I gather your analogy is to say that the 1800 is very poor in making BW,
> which, unfortunately, I have to agree to.
> 
Right, its just lacking in hardware features for good B&W...

>  However, if I understand correct,
> you claim that your product PFP can make neutral gray prints from the 1800,
> 
It can't work magic. It can improve neutrality from most printers, but an RGB 
profile can't effect metamerism, so the prints will still jump around in tone 
under different light sources.

> so why can’t Epson make a suitable print mode, driver or profile?
> 
Well, just for overall perspective, Epson does not have a history of going 
back and adding new features to older printer models at the driver level. It as 
only, in my memory, happened once, when the metamerism on the 2000p was so 
bad, they wrote a new driver version that changed the black generation so prints 
were more grainy, but less variable. In dozens of other cases where it might, 
perhaps, have been possible to add new features from newer models, or 
simplifed versions of them, back into older model drivers, it has not happened. Epson 
is in the business of adding new features to new printers that make you want 
to buy these new models. Retrofitting would not make sense in that business 
model. Besides, in most cases it would not actually work, or not very well.

>  Anyway, I
> hope that the PFP can make neutral BW prints from the 1800, as I have just
> ordered one…
> 
> Neutral under any single light source... since the grays are built from color 
inks, change the light source, change the graytints. Nothing at the profile 
level can alter that. Printer models without two levels of gray (not including 
blacks!) are not able to print consistant grays (ones that remain neutral 
looking under a wide range of light sources) without changing to a thirdparty gray 
ink set.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


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1800 & B&W (was ABW vs. the world)

2007-06-09 by Paul Roark

I'm using an 1800 to print color and what I now consider -- for my uses --
the best B&W (matte paper only).  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-10 by jrschwaller

Hi, CD....

Will the tweaking to get neutral B&W tones effect the color 
prints...if so, how and what to look for?

Also, could you better explain (at least for me) what you are talking 
about in the quote below and what the levers are:

"...gray ramp following paper white down very evenly (consistant 
addition of the paper white color element all the way down the gray 
ramp); thats what some users would want.  Asking it to make grays 
that don't include the paper component as they move farther from 
white, as you've done here, creates a very even ramp from paper white 
down to neutral near black, with the paper white tint dropping off 
slowly. This is what other users might want. Still other users would 
want it neutral from the top, but that would require using neutral 
paper..."


Thanks....JOHN

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 6/7/07 6:20:33 PM, michele@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Here you go the best I achieved trying tuning the varios settings 
in
> > PFP (pushed greens to +3):
> > 
> > L    a    b
> > 97.49    1.56    -0.47
> > 93.81    1.3    -0.01
> > 90.24    1.4    -0.4
> > 86.58    1.38    0.39
> > 82.88    1.31    -0.29
> > 79.4    1.12    -0.52
> > 75.73    0.27    -0.62
> > 71.43    1.09    -0.49
> > 67.53    1.1    -0.1
> > 63.86    0.63    0.03
> > 59.51    0.71    0.7
> > 54.54    1.01    0.38
> > 49.58    0.53    -0.01
> > 44.29    0.09    0.36
> > 39.37    0.24    0.3
> > 34.02    0.08    1.11
> > 27.66    -0.49    1.61
> > 20.79    -0.56    1.5
> > 14.44    -0.64    1.28
> > 8.13    -0.5    0.84
> > 7.26    0.3    1.83
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> What you were seeing last post was the gray ramp following paper 
white down 
> very evenly (consistant addition of the paper white color element 
all the way 
> down the gray ramp); thats what some users would want. Asking it to 
make grays 
> that don't include the paper component as they move farther from 
white, as 
> you've done here, creates a very even ramp from paper white down to 
neutral near 
> black, with the paper white tint dropping off slowly. This is what 
other users 
> might want. Still other users would want it neutral from the top, 
but that 
> would require using neutral paper... <G>
> 
> Every time I make recommendations that add to the d-max of users 
prints, they 
> want even more. I'd suggest using a different paper for two reasons 
then; to 
> get rid of the paper tone, and to find one with a bit more d-max, 
though I'm 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> sure you would then want a bit more d-max on that paper as well. <G>
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: ABW vs. the world

2007-06-10 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 6/10/07 10:27:17 AM, jrs2@... writes:


> Will the tweaking to get neutral B&W tones effect the color
> prints...if so, how and what to look for?
> 
Well, if it makes neutrals more neutral, that should effect all colors in an 
appropriate manner, especially near neutrals. Keep in mind that the tiny 
adjustments that are involved in neutralization will be invisibly small in 
saturated colors.
> 
> Also, could you better explain (at least for me) what you are talking
> about in the quote below and what the levers are:
> 
> "...gray ramp following paper white down very evenly (consistant
> addition of the paper white color element all the way down the gray
> ramp); thats what some users would want.  Asking it to make grays
> that don't include the paper component as they move farther from
> white, as you've done here, creates a very even ramp from paper white
> down to neutral near black, with the paper white tint dropping off
> slowly. This is what other users might want. Still other users would
> want it neutral from the top, but that would require using neutral
> paper..."
> 
> Hmmm... I though that WAS a good explanation of it. <G>

Basicly, we think we know what we want for neutrality. But neutal is not 
quite so simple. Once you are working with a tunable system with controls for 
these things, and the ability to measure the results, you learn some suprising 
things.

Lets say your paper is natural, unwhitened, and has a mild yellow tint. If 
you run dead neutral grays, you will be putting blue ink on the paper to 
neutralize the paper tone in most grays, certainly all lighter grays. But at paper 
white, that will end. So your ramp will be literally neutral, up to a 
conflicting (in this example yellow) white tone. Depending how much white there is on 
the page, the eye will be biased to see paper as white, and the neutral ramp, or 
at least its highlight parts, as blue. So dead neutral won't even look 
neutral, and will conflict with paper white as well. 

A better solution is to either add the paper tone to the neutral components 
all the way from white to black (or at least to the point where the black ink 
takes over, you can't really control the tone of black, but its not really 
perceptable either, so its not much of an issue). This gives you a print that is 
"paper neutral" all the way from paper white through the entire gray ramp. The 
first set of measurements I commented on did that.

On the other hand, that might not be what everyone wants. The paper tone need 
to be considered in the lighter grays, so that they don't clash with it, but 
darker tones don't necessarily need that tint. The second set of measurements 
showed that type of ramp, where the paper tint was slowly reduced to neutral 
as it moved from white to black. 

A Kodak gray ramp card shows the literal type of ramp: all patches are 
neutralized, but the paper white patch, and the lightest gray patch next to it, are 
polluted by the yellow of the photo paper, and have a yellow tint. Thats the 
best you can do when attempting to print a neutral gray ramp photographically 
on a nonneutral base, but it doesn't make for an attractive ramp for printing B&
W art photos. Thats why paper white factors in the ramp, one or the other of 
the ways above, offer the best gray ramps to paper white for printing images.

Use a neutral paper, this all becomes somewhat moot, unless you intentionally 
tint or crosstone your image on that neutral paper to add depth, warmth, tint 
contrast, or character.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com




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