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MIS K4 Black Inks...question

MIS K4 Black Inks...question

2007-06-16 by brouwerkent

Question for Paul and others.  I am planning to move over to using the
K4 Black inks as follows.  I have a question about the use of Cyan and
Magenta.

Inks used

Eboni
PKN
LK
LLK
LLLK...LLK 1:1 with clear stock

Light Cyan Mix
Light Magenta Mix

My question on the Light Cyan and Light Magenta.  Is there any reason
why I should use clear stock vs using a light grey to dilute the Light
Cyan and Light magenta.

My aim is a relatively neutral ink set that can be manipulated to stay
more or less neutral on a variety of papers via the profile and rip.

Bob at MIS said I should use just the straight colors diluted in the
clear stock...but I am not clear why.  Couldn't I use LLLK and the LC
dilute in 1:1 or something like that.  My perception here is that if I
use too strong colors...it is harder to get just subtle tone shifts
without having to severally limit the ink limit...  Seems like a mix
of light black and color would accomplish the same thing with an added
advantage of adding one more channel of grey tone.

My ideal would be smooth as possible neutral...so the more shades of
grey the better, right? 

Not wanting to waste any inks just experimenting...hence my question.
Measure twice..mix once????



Thanks 

Phil

RE: [Digital BW] MIS K4 Black Inks...question

2007-06-17 by Paul Roark

Hi Phil,

> I am planning to move over to using the K4 Black inks as follows. 
> I have a question about the use of Cyan and Magenta.

>Inks used

>Eboni
>PKN
>LK
>LLK
>LLLK...LLK 1:1 with clear stock

If you're using a modern printer, the LLLK is not needed.  I tried a 2200
with and without the LLLK, and the mix that did not have it was actually
smoother (not sure why).

>Light Cyan Mix
>Light Magenta Mix

>My question on the Light Cyan and Light Magenta. Is there 
>any reason why I should use clear stock vs using a light 
>grey to dilute the Light Cyan and Light magenta.

See page 4 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf  If you're using a
large format printer or CFS, I don't think it's worth fighting the tone
shift problems.

If you're not using one of these, such that the carts get constant
agitation, then the light grey would reduce the color contrast between the
dots and gray inks.  However, on the other side of the coin, I've found it
easier to profile inksets where the grays and colors were separated.  With
LM and LLC one can essentially change the tones with very little impact on
the density.

>My aim is a relatively neutral ink set that can be manipulated 
>to stay more or less neutral on a variety of papers via the 
>profile and rip.

>Bob at MIS said I should use just the straight colors diluted 
>in the clear stock...but I am not clear why.

Hid reasoning is probably based on my findings, noted above.

I do not recommend the MIS clear stock.  It bronzes badly on glossy paper.
Use their Glop for a base.

>... My perception here is that if I use too strong colors...
> it is harder to get just subtle tone shifts
> without having to severally limit the ink limit... 
>Seems like a mix of light black and color would accomplish 
>the same thing with an added
>advantage of adding one more channel of grey tone.

What I did that was very easy is use LM as is and then just dilute LC 1:1
with Glop.  Controlling the tones is very easy with that setup.

>My ideal would be smooth as possible neutral...so the more 
>shades of grey the better, right?

Maybe not.  See my note above.  Also, it turned out EZ ink was smoother than
the lighter inks in the 2400 setup.  I'm not sure why, but papers get
blotchy with too much water.  It may be that the very light inks are causing
this.

>Not wanting to waste any inks just experimenting...
> hence my question.  Measure twice..mix once????

Another reason I like the stock inks with at most the 1:1 LC is that it's
very easy to mix.

Good luck with the project.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: MIS K4 Black Inks...more questions

2007-06-17 by brouwerkent

Paul

I am using 2200.  I have read your pdf on K4 ink set...that is what
has prompted me to go this way.  I understood from reading that piece
that LLLK was smoother.  I must have misread this.

Another question.  I ordered the clear base on MIS recommendation.  I
only print occasionally on lustre (never Glossy)...and have not felt
the need for Glop...just use PKN and turn off the Ebony.  Am I going
to have problems on lustre relative to bronzing with this base?  If
so, I will need to return to MIS for exchange. Isn't the Base used in
all standard Inks?

Soooo, unless I misread this...you think laying down too many shades
actually makes things blotchy???  Seems like this is controlled with
ink limit and linearization.  Am I mistaken?  But it does make sense
that if inks are too dilute, the base would oversaturate. Is the
blotchy quality from too much base dilution?

One of the reasons I am going to this set of inks is the idea of
having both PKN and Ebony loaded...and not have to swap carts.  I was
planning to use PKN as my dark grey when using Matt paper...so it
definitely sounds like I do not need to have further dilutions of the
LLK. 

I am still not clear on your reasoning for separating the color
carts...but  I have no doubt you have tested more than I.  I have
initially tried using Epson Ultrachome LC & LM with the most neutral
inks in the UT7 inks that I am currently using.  These off the shelf
colors are so potent, I have to set the output of these inks to just a
whisper.  That is why I was thinking dilution would be a preferred way
to go.  


Will you please elaborate why you only dilute the LC. I would have
thought that LC and LM were tonally equivalent...so both should be
diluted to get same density with same curve.


---

One more question.  Lets say I use LLK in 2 positions(instead of LLLK
for one)...and split the output evenly for those 2 positions....same
curve and ink limits.  Shouldn't this smooth the output?  Is there any
gain here?

Or use same ink in 2 positions and use those two positions to smooth
the ramp by equitable output on different parts of the ramp.  Is there
any gain here.  I do follow your reasoning for not diluting the inks
themselves.  But 2 positions equaling the output of one position
should lead to smoother?right?

Don't get me wrong.  I get pretty smooth results right now.  

Thanks for your help.

Phil

RE: [Digital BW] Re: MIS K4 Black Inks...more questions

2007-06-17 by Paul Roark

Hi Phil,

>I am using 2200. I have read your pdf on K4 ink set...
>that is what has prompted me to go this way. 
>I understood from reading that piece that LLLK was smoother.

I pulled it from my setup because it didn't seem to add any smoothness over
the LLK.

> I ordered the clear base on MIS recommendation. ...
> Am I going to have problems on lustre relative to bronzing 
> with this base? If so, I will need to return to MIS for 
> exchange. Isn't the Base used in all standard Inks?

The clear base I've seen MIS sell is the old one that is for matte paper
only.  It bronzes badly on glossy papers.  Not all bases are the same.  In
fact, the base is where a lot of the action has been in pigmented inks.
What MIS sells as Glop appears to be the best base available for glossy
papers.

>...you think laying down too many shades actually makes things blotchy???

Yes, too much light ink overloads the paper with water.  The transition from
UT1 to UT2 was, in part, needed for the then new glossy paper capability of
the base.  UT1 used too much light ink and was not smooth. 

With the R1800 3-MK (100% Eboni) approach I'm finding some papers that I
thought were not smooth even with the more recent inksets were, in fact,
just being overloaded still.  MIS Alpha is the most notable case in point.
My old favorite was the Permajet Alpha, which has the Innova non-OBA coating
on a cotton base.  When Permajet pulled out of the US market, MIS started
selling it's own version of "Alpha" -- in this case the same Innova coating,
but on an alpha-cellulose base.  The cotton bases appear to be much better
at absorbing water than the alpha cellulose base.  So, while the old
Permajet Alpha was great, the MIS Alpha was blotchy.  Now with the 3-MK
approach, it's once again near the top of the heap for me.  Reducing the
water and going to a more dense ink increased smoothness.

> Seems like this is controlled with ink limit and linearization.

Yes, it should be.  However when we use the Epson driver, the ink limit is
mostly out of our control, and what is needed for a good dmax may not be
what is needed for midtone smoothness.  I'm sure you'd be able to utilize
the LLLK properly with QTR, but if you use the 2880 needed for the best
blacks, the LLK dots are already virtually invisible.

> ...Is the blotchy quality from too much base dilution?

Yes, blotchiness is often from too much water on the paper. 

>One of the reasons I am going to this set of inks is the 
>idea of having both PKN and Ebony loaded...and not have 
>to swap carts. I was planning to use PKN as my dark grey 
> when using Matt paper...so it definitely sounds like 
> I do not need to have further dilutions of the LLK. 

I don't use PKN in my setup because it will introduce a lot of color inks
into the deep shadows.  You'll notice one option I used is to has PK in the
system for not only glossy black but also as another dark gray ink.  Being
pure carbon, it could be part of the carbon core.  Then I had full strength
cyan to get the higher dmax like PKN.  In the deepest shadows it is mostly
the cyan that helps the PK, and cyan is much stronger than magenta in terms
of light fastness.

>I am still not clear on your reasoning for separating the 
>color carts...

Initially it was for the large format printers to avoid the tone shifts that
are associated with blended inks.  However, ease of profiling was a very
nice side effect.  Additionally, the QC issues of ink mixing disappear and
it allows me to use the Epson UC LM, which is the best.

>... Epson Ultrachome LC & LM ... off the shelf
> colors are so potent, I have to set the output of these inks 
> to just a whisper.

Yes, and that's good.  If you have the ink limit set very low, you still
have lots of room to adjust.  I was worried about the ability of the rip and
printer to control such small amounts of ink, but they are fine and very
consistent.

The limiting factor is the smoothness of the LC in the highlights.  That is
why I went to an LLC (50% LC).  It makes a barely visible difference on the
2200.  Interestingly, profiles made for LLC can be used fine with LC by just
cutting the ink load in half.  It's very linear.

> I would have thought that LC and LM were tonally equivalent...
> so both should be diluted to get same density with same curve.

The LM just does not show up as prominently in the highlights.  It's fairly
invisible.  As a nice consequence of not needed to dilute the LM, as
mentioned above, it opened up the ability to use off the shelf Epson LM.

> Lets say I use LLK in 2 positions(instead of LLLK
> for one)...and split the output evenly for those 2 positions....
> same curve and ink limits. Shouldn't this smooth the output? 
>Is there any gain here?

There might be, but I'd use the two with slightly different curves so that
the dithering is more random.

Frankly, with modern printers, 3 grays seem to do the job just fine.  The k3
approach is very smooth.  I suspect the more inks makes more of a difference
at higher speeds and with larger dots.  However, I've found with QTR I want
to use the 2880 for the best dmax.  With that resolution, there seems to be
very little gained by more than 3 gray inks.

The 2200 is a good enough printer that any number of approaches will work
fine.  I'd guess that avoiding banding is more of an issue than the dots.
Finding the solution that works best in this regard may be different on your
particular printer than others, as I expect banding is, in part, a function
of less than perfect assembly and adjustment.  So, I'd just try the solution
that seems easiest to live with given your own preferences and see how it
works.

Good luck with the system.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

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