Digital BW, The Print

I have some beautiful winter rural snowcapes I wanted to print, but 
undecided which paper to use. The snowscapes are somewhat hi-key with 
not a lot of shadow detail or contrast. I'm open to suggestions on 
which brands, textures, tones, etc. to use that will best simulate the 
softness, subtle feel of snow. I'm using a 3800 with K3 inks.

Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, I'd appreciate hearing 
some of your thoughts and suggestions.

Thanks in advance!

Hahnemule Fine Art Pearl - great for high key images.

Mike


On 09/08/07, SteveZ <blizzie12@...> wrote:
>
>   I have some beautiful winter rural snowcapes I wanted to print, but
> undecided which paper to use. The snowscapes are somewhat hi-key with
> not a lot of shadow detail or contrast. I'm open to suggestions on
> which brands, textures, tones, etc. to use that will best simulate the
> softness, subtle feel of snow. I'm using a 3800 with K3 inks.
>
> Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, I'd appreciate hearing
> some of your thoughts and suggestions.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
<blizzie12@...> wrote:
>
> I have some beautiful winter rural snowcapes I wanted to print, but 
> undecided which paper to use. The snowscapes are somewhat hi-key 
with 
> not a lot of shadow detail or contrast. I'm open to suggestions on 
> which brands, textures, tones, etc. to use that will best simulate 
the 
> softness, subtle feel of snow. I'm using a 3800 with K3 inks.
> 
> Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, I'd appreciate hearing 
> some of your thoughts and suggestions.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


 This list is great for technical information. There are a lot of 
really excellent printers and people who understand the processes and 
inks and printers and curves and profiles and is a great resource for 
all that stuff...but, Something like which paper is going to interpret 
your photos is an artistic decision you should determine on your own.
Buy some sample packs and see which papers you like-you won't really 
gain experience as a digital printer unless you experience digital 
printing. Believe me this is not a put down, just a suggestion. Look 
at paper sample books, make small prints on a variety of stocks, see 
which ones you really like, it will be worth the effort and you will 
learn alot from the process.
I was fortunate when I was young to work for a well known (now dead) 
photographer that was considered by many to be an excellent printer. 
He really emphasised practical experimentation. Many of his most 
beautiful prints were made on a paper that at the time was not 
considered by most experts to be appropriate for the kind of work he 
did. Yet after testing ALL of the emulsions at the time he personally 
found this stock to be closest to his vision. Later in the decade you 
saw more and more artists using this paper, but he discovered it for 
himself. You will benefit if you go through the same exploration. For 
sure.
Jack

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jnhugo" 
<jnhugo@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ" 
> <blizzie12@> wrote:
> >
> > I have some beautiful winter rural snowcapes I wanted to print, 
but 
> > undecided which paper to use. The snowscapes are somewhat hi-key 
> with 
> > not a lot of shadow detail or contrast. I'm open to suggestions 
on 
> > which brands, textures, tones, etc. to use that will best 
simulate 
> the 
> > softness, subtle feel of snow. I'm using a 3800 with K3 inks.
> > 
> > Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, I'd appreciate 
hearing 
> > some of your thoughts and suggestions.
> > 
> > Thanks in advance!
> 
> 
>  This list is great for technical information. There are a lot of 
> really excellent printers and people who understand the processes 
and 
> inks and printers and curves and profiles and is a great resource 
for 
> all that stuff...but, Something like which paper is going to 
interpret 
> your photos is an artistic decision you should determine on your 
own.
> Buy some sample packs and see which papers you like-you won't 
really 
> gain experience as a digital printer unless you experience digital 
> printing. Believe me this is not a put down, just a suggestion. 
Look 
> at paper sample books, make small prints on a variety of stocks, 
see 
> which ones you really like, it will be worth the effort and you 
will 
> learn alot from the process.
> I was fortunate when I was young to work for a well known (now 
dead) 
> photographer that was considered by many to be an excellent 
printer. 
> He really emphasised practical experimentation. Many of his most 
> beautiful prints were made on a paper that at the time was not 
> considered by most experts to be appropriate for the kind of work 
he 
> did. Yet after testing ALL of the emulsions at the time he 
personally 
> found this stock to be closest to his vision. Later in the decade 
you 
> saw more and more artists using this paper, but he discovered it 
for 
> himself. You will benefit if you go through the same exploration. 
For 
> sure.
> Jack
>
I hear ya, Jack, and appreciate your reply. I obviously plan to make 
test prints of my snowscape images with the different fine art papers 
lieing around here. I was just interested in knowing which fine art 
papers the MORE EXPERIENCED fine art photographers have 
used for printing these kind of images since "snow" can be a tricky 
to deal with.

Call it research if you like, but posting this question on here 
seemed like a good starting point in case I have to buy papers 
recommended by others.

> I hear ya, Jack, and appreciate your reply. I obviously plan to make 
> test prints of my snowscape images with the different fine art 
papers 
> lieing around here. I was just interested in knowing which fine art 
> papers the MORE EXPERIENCED fine art photographers have 
> used for printing these kind of images since "snow" can be a tricky 
> to deal with.
> 
> Call it research if you like, but posting this question on here 
> seemed like a good starting point in case I have to buy papers 
> recommended by others.
>
 Great! I'm glad you took it in the spirit it was offered. Happy 
printing!
Jack

Hello Steve,

>I have some beautiful winter rural snowcapes I wanted to print, but 
>undecided which paper to use. The snowscapes are somewhat hi-key with 
>not a lot of shadow detail or contrast. I'm open to suggestions on 
>which brands, textures, tones, etc. to use that will best simulate 
>the softness, subtle feel of snow. I'm using a 3800 with K3 inks.
> 
>Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, I'd appreciate hearing 
>some of your thoughts and suggestions.

Any good paper will do a good job at that.  Please have a look at
article #5 at the link below.  It lists characteristics of about 25
matte papers.  When I was doing research for it I printed two test
prints on all of those papers.  One of them was a snow scene which had
a large patch of brilliant white snow with subtle detail in the snow
texture.  In general I found the biggest difference in the papers was
in how they handled shadow detail.  They all handled the snow very well. 

Any differences will most likely come down to how the dark areas are
handled, and personal preference for the highlights.  For example, if
you visually want the snow to be white, then you might not be happy
with a creamy warm colored paper.  But that's the sort of thing only
you can decide for yourself.   Unfortunately the only way to find your
paper is to lay out some bucks and buy some samples.  Only by making
prints will you find your way there.

Since you are using 3800/K3 I'd definitely recommend Epson Velvet Fine
Art as a starting point.  K3 is superb on this paper and it will
certainly set a high standard for others to match.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Steve,
> 
> >I have some beautiful winter rural snowcapes I wanted to print, 
but 
> >undecided which paper to use. The snowscapes are somewhat hi-key 
with 
> >not a lot of shadow detail or contrast. I'm open to suggestions on 
> >which brands, textures, tones, etc. to use that will best simulate 
> >the softness, subtle feel of snow. I'm using a 3800 with K3 inks.
> > 
> >Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, I'd appreciate 
hearing 
> >some of your thoughts and suggestions.
> 
> Any good paper will do a good job at that.  Please have a look at
> article #5 at the link below.  It lists characteristics of about 25
> matte papers.  When I was doing research for it I printed two test
> prints on all of those papers.  One of them was a snow scene which 
had
> a large patch of brilliant white snow with subtle detail in the snow
> texture.  In general I found the biggest difference in the papers 
was
> in how they handled shadow detail.  They all handled the snow very 
well. 
> 
> Any differences will most likely come down to how the dark areas are
> handled, and personal preference for the highlights.  For example, 
if
> you visually want the snow to be white, then you might not be happy
> with a creamy warm colored paper.  But that's the sort of thing only
> you can decide for yourself.   Unfortunately the only way to find 
your
> paper is to lay out some bucks and buy some samples.  Only by making
> prints will you find your way there.
> 
> Since you are using 3800/K3 I'd definitely recommend Epson Velvet 
Fine
> Art as a starting point.  K3 is superb on this paper and it will
> certainly set a high standard for others to match.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm



Thanks, Clayton. Yes, I often refer back to your series on articles 
on Fine Art Digital Printing. It's a valuable resource guide, 
especially for beginners like me.

This evening I made some test prints using VFA and didn't really like 
the results. I found the snow looked too warm on this paper, although 
the texture made the images look quite interesting.

I also tried Moab Entrada BW and found this paper more suitable for 
printing my cold wintery snowscapes. 

I plan to test more papers with a brightness value in the range of W1-
W2.

I agree with the others that buying sample packs and printing the  
image is the way to go! I've been approached by a wedding that claims  
he's so busy he cant do this extra work........ Local artists what  
digital copies of their paintings, drawings, etc.. This guy has seen  
some of my work on Hah German Etching from my Epson 4800. The very  
next thing I did was by a Hahnem�hle sampler pack, 18 - 8.5 x 11  
inches, all but one prints with matte ink. I'm printing 2 5x7 one one  
sheet of every sample and then I'll print 1 8x10 using ABW and see  
what's up. At least when I'm done I have a pretty good idea how 9   
papers work.

PS: >Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, It's also very  
good practice printing for me <G>

Alan

On Aug 9, 2007, at 9:39 PM, SteveZ wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
> <cj@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Steve,
> >
> > >I have some beautiful winter rural snowcapes I wanted to print,
> but
> > >undecided which paper to use. The snowscapes are somewhat hi-key
> with
> > >not a lot of shadow detail or contrast. I'm open to suggestions on
> > >which brands, textures, tones, etc. to use that will best simulate
> > >the softness, subtle feel of snow. I'm using a 3800 with K3 inks.
> > >
> > >Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, I'd appreciate
> hearing
> > >some of your thoughts and suggestions.
> >
> > Any good paper will do a good job at that. Please have a look at
> > article #5 at the link below. It lists characteristics of about 25
> > matte papers. When I was doing research for it I printed two test
> > prints on all of those papers. One of them was a snow scene which
> had
> > a large patch of brilliant white snow with subtle detail in the snow
> > texture. In general I found the biggest difference in the papers
> was
> > in how they handled shadow detail. They all handled the snow very
> well.
> >
> > Any differences will most likely come down to how the dark areas are
> > handled, and personal preference for the highlights. For example,
> if
> > you visually want the snow to be white, then you might not be happy
> > with a creamy warm colored paper. But that's the sort of thing only
> > you can decide for yourself. Unfortunately the only way to find
> your
> > paper is to lay out some bucks and buy some samples. Only by making
> > prints will you find your way there.
> >
> > Since you are using 3800/K3 I'd definitely recommend Epson Velvet
> Fine
> > Art as a starting point. K3 is superb on this paper and it will
> > certainly set a high standard for others to match.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> >
> >
> > Info on black and white digital printing at
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>
> Thanks, Clayton. Yes, I often refer back to your series on articles
> on Fine Art Digital Printing. It's a valuable resource guide,
> especially for beginners like me.
>
> This evening I made some test prints using VFA and didn't really like
> the results. I found the snow looked too warm on this paper, although
> the texture made the images look quite interesting.
>
> I also tried Moab Entrada BW and found this paper more suitable for
> printing my cold wintery snowscapes.
>
> I plan to test more papers with a brightness value in the range of W1-
> W2.
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Alan Kearney 
<alan_kearney@...> wrote:
>
> I agree with the others that buying sample packs and printing the  
> image is the way to go! I've been approached by a wedding that 
claims  
> he's so busy he cant do this extra work........ Local artists what  
> digital copies of their paintings, drawings, etc.. This guy has 
seen  
> some of my work on Hah German Etching from my Epson 4800. The very  
> next thing I did was by a Hahnemühle sampler pack, 18 - 8.5 x 11  
> inches, all but one prints with matte ink. I'm printing 2 5x7 one 
one  
> sheet of every sample and then I'll print 1 8x10 using ABW and see  
> what's up. At least when I'm done I have a pretty good idea how 9   
> papers work.
> 
> PS: >Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, It's also very  
> good practice printing for me <G>
> 
> Alan


Thanks, Alan.  I too have used sampler packs from Hahnemhule
and Crane. It's probably time to pick up some more for 
this "snowscape" application.



> On Aug 9, 2007, at 9:39 PM, SteveZ wrote:
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton 
Jones"
> > <cj@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Steve,
> > >
> > > >I have some beautiful winter rural snowcapes I wanted to print,
> > but
> > > >undecided which paper to use. The snowscapes are somewhat hi-
key
> > with
> > > >not a lot of shadow detail or contrast. I'm open to 
suggestions on
> > > >which brands, textures, tones, etc. to use that will best 
simulate
> > > >the softness, subtle feel of snow. I'm using a 3800 with K3 
inks.
> > > >
> > > >Since I'm not an experienced digital printer, I'd appreciate
> > hearing
> > > >some of your thoughts and suggestions.
> > >
> > > Any good paper will do a good job at that. Please have a look at
> > > article #5 at the link below. It lists characteristics of about 
25
> > > matte papers. When I was doing research for it I printed two 
test
> > > prints on all of those papers. One of them was a snow scene 
which
> > had
> > > a large patch of brilliant white snow with subtle detail in the 
snow
> > > texture. In general I found the biggest difference in the papers
> > was
> > > in how they handled shadow detail. They all handled the snow 
very
> > well.
> > >
> > > Any differences will most likely come down to how the dark 
areas are
> > > handled, and personal preference for the highlights. For 
example,
> > if
> > > you visually want the snow to be white, then you might not be 
happy
> > > with a creamy warm colored paper. But that's the sort of thing 
only
> > > you can decide for yourself. Unfortunately the only way to find
> > your
> > > paper is to lay out some bucks and buy some samples. Only by 
making
> > > prints will you find your way there.
> > >
> > > Since you are using 3800/K3 I'd definitely recommend Epson 
Velvet
> > Fine
> > > Art as a starting point. K3 is superb on this paper and it will
> > > certainly set a high standard for others to match.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Clayton
> > >
> > >
> > > Info on black and white digital printing at
> > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> >
> > Thanks, Clayton. Yes, I often refer back to your series on 
articles
> > on Fine Art Digital Printing. It's a valuable resource guide,
> > especially for beginners like me.
> >
> > This evening I made some test prints using VFA and didn't really 
like
> > the results. I found the snow looked too warm on this paper, 
although
> > the texture made the images look quite interesting.
> >
> > I also tried Moab Entrada BW and found this paper more suitable 
for
> > printing my cold wintery snowscapes.
> >
> > I plan to test more papers with a brightness value in the range 
of W1-

> > W2.
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Steve,

>This evening I made some test prints using VFA and didn't really like 
>the results. I found the snow looked too warm on this paper, although 
>the texture made the images look quite interesting.
> 
>I also tried Moab Entrada BW and found this paper more suitable for 
>printing my cold wintery snowscapes.  I plan to test more papers 
>with a brightness value in the range of W1-W2.
 

Sounds like you're on the right track.  In the cold white papers,
Condor BW has been a long time favorite of mine.  Since Hawk Mtn uses
an already white paper base, I've not seen any warming from OBA burn
off, just a very slight lessening of brightness.  Really nice stuff. 
Good luck with it.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm