Digital BW, The Print

I recently purchased a used Epson 1270 .. and bought a set of MIS VM hextone innks from inksupply.

First impressions -- even though almost everyone on this list is an experienced user, i've seen several questions from people considering these products, so i think they will benefit..

The installation of the new carts was a breeze, i had the printer clean the heads (by holding down the ink button for 2 seconds, then ran 2 cleaning cycles .. and got a perfect test pattern ..  i stil printed one of the PURGE images from the MIS site, just to on the safe side ..  the colors looked solid (the previous owner had not done any color printing in a while i was told) .. -- 

Began testing on a myriad of papers using Paul Roarks curves (unmodified) -- i'm printing from a mac, so i downloaded the curves from the MIS site, i did not find MAC curves on the download sectipon of this group (only PC curves).

I've been printing the 21 step image found on this group.

disclaimer: all my comments are from visual inspection only, -- i printed the step chart using the neutral curve.

Paper                            Impression
-----------                        -------------------
Lumijet Canvas               ink pooled in some sections, ran in others, did not adhere to coating very well, everything is kind of gray. -- (this papert worked greawt with the epson OEM inks though)

Epson heavy weight matte    - perfect step chart. deep blacks, great sharpness.  
Epson archival matte         - same results as heavyweight matte, but heavier paper.

Somerset PE Textured    - I love how smooth the different levels of gray blend into each other, its smooth, the blacks are lacking some depth though, but that is the only bad thing i can say about that .. i'm planning on printing alot on this paper, the paper is a bit warm.

Legion Photo Matte         - very similar results to the EAM, but in heavier paper .. upon close inpection, the 100% black seems deeper in the legion photo matte, than in the EAM... the color is radiant white .. and they mean it.. side by side witht he PE-T and EAM, this is BRIGHT white.

Concorde Rag                 had bad results with this, large dot gain, sloppy blending in the 90-60% range .. (where the tone of the ink is not smooth) .. but i think it might have been operator error, since other people love this paper .. so i plan to re-test .. i might have used the wrong side of the paper.

Ilford Fine Art Paper              - very smooth blending of levels of grey, deep 100% black, also i think a great paper, though not as heavy as the PE-T, its more neutral color (the paper's color) is more appealing to me.  one bad drawback is that the paper seems to flake when handled, so some sort of spray might help?

Somertset PE Velvet        -nice blending, good deep black, but when viewed at an angle i can see some spotting on the darker shades, ?? it may have been a fluke, so i'm going to re-test on this paper also.  I did not like the texture of the paper, it very pronounced. -- (though thats very subjective).

Eclipse double-sided Satine (300 GSM)    - VERY sturdy paper, almost thought i was going to have trouble feeding it.  this paper gave good smooth blending, great sharpness, though not as smooth as the PE-T, or the EAM.

-------------------------------------------------------------

hope this helps some people...  i think for hte time being my printing will be done using EAM for proofing, and PE-T/Legion Matte for portfolio...  

... the ilford fine art paper is also very appealing, if i can get it to not flake

-------------------------------------------------------------

one thing i've noticed though is a tendency to clog nozzles when sitting overnight, or when a non-compatible paper is printed on (such as athe lumijet canvas) ..  i noteiced that i've got clogging when i get a print with micro-banding ... 

..every time though one cleaning cycle clears it up.  I get perfect patterns then.

.. i'm also planning on getting a MIS CFS as sson as they will sell me one with MIS VM.

-- ricardo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ricardo,

thanks for the mini-review;  much appreciated. Here are some thoughts and 
questions:

Could you tell us how these papers compared in their maximum black (by 
visual inspection)? You note that the Epson had deep blacks, but you don't 
say how the Eclipse fared, for example.

You haven't tested any of the Hahnemuelle papers (which go by several 
names depending on the distributor - see our Files section). You may want to 
look into them . A sample pack would be a smart way to go (look at our 
Bookmarks for sources).

You are using carts, which is a great way to test things and decide if you like 
what you see. The consensus here has been that a Continuous Ink System is 
the way to go, and it saves tons of money. The CIS produced by 
nomorecarts.com has a good reputation (sold as Niagra at mediastreet). 
Whichever you choose, make sure you are OK with the way the chipped carts 
handle the ink level update in the hardware/driver.

If you get clogs down the line, there is a whole subculture that has developed 
on these lists to deal with them. Don't be surprised, don't panic and ask away! 
<g> Clogs don't appear at first, but may happen as the system sits, or through 
other factors. We have come to consider them a way of life, and a small price 
to pay for using alternate inks on (cheap) printers that were never meant for 
that particular abuse.

Good luck with your prints!

Antonis




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@s...> 
wrote:
> I recently purchased a used Epson 1270 .. and bought a set of MIS VM 
hextone innks from inksupply.
> 
> First impressions -- even though almost everyone on this list is an 
experienced user, i've seen several questions from people considering these 
products, so i think they will benefit..

On 1/31/02 12:01 PM, "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@...> wrote:

Clip
> 
> hope this helps some people...  i think for hte time being my printing will be
> done using EAM for proofing, and PE-T/Legion Matte for portfolio...

Neither of these are archival papers...correct?  I believe the Legion Matte
has optical brighteners...is it 100% rag?

Robert

The literature from Legion says:

Legion Photo Matte
100% alpha cellulose (sulphite paper)
pH: Neutral / Archival
Brightness: >90

i couldn't find any data on the longevity of pigmented dye inks on this
paper though

same for PE-T .. its pH neutral / Archival ... dont know how that translates
to longevity with MIS inks though..

-- ricardo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 1270 and MIS VM Inks... first impressions..


> On 1/31/02 12:01 PM, "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@...> wrote:
>
> Clip
> >
> > hope this helps some people...  i think for hte time being my printing
will be
> > done using EAM for proofing, and PE-T/Legion Matte for portfolio...
>
> Neither of these are archival papers...correct?  I believe the Legion
Matte

> has optical brighteners...is it 100% rag?
>
> Robert
>
>

Buffered wood paper...ok for your portfolio...but questionably archival.
I'm pretty sure this paper has brighteners in it...so it will fade yellow.

Robert

On 1/31/02 2:27 PM, "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@...> wrote:

> The literature from Legion says:
> 
> Legion Photo Matte
> 100% alpha cellulose (sulphite paper)
> pH: Neutral / Archival
> Brightness: >90
> 
> i couldn't find any data on the longevity of pigmented dye inks on this
> paper though
> 
> same for PE-T .. its pH neutral / Archival ... dont know how that translates
> to longevity with MIS inks though..
> 
> -- ricardo
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 1270 and MIS VM Inks... first impressions..
> 
> 
>> On 1/31/02 12:01 PM, "Ricardo Lagos" <ricardo@...> wrote:
>> 
>> Clip
>>> 
>>> hope this helps some people...  i think for hte time being my printing
> will be
>>> done using EAM for proofing, and PE-T/Legion Matte for portfolio...
>> 
>> Neither of these are archival papers...correct?  I believe the Legion
> Matte
>> has optical brighteners...is it 100% rag?
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
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> 
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> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Ricardo,

Thanks for the review of the papers.

With respect to LPM, the one thing that I've noticed in my fade testing is
that it yellows more than most -- almost twice as much as Epson Archival
Matte.

The yellowing is generally believed to be the brighteners burning out with
the UV light exposure.  Many believe that brighteners reduce the archival
characteristics of the paper and negatively affect the image permanence.

In my fade testing I'm not sure I see any correlation between the
brighteners and fading, but I can't test paper archival keeping.  (And, I
don't put much faith in the pH pens.)

In my fluorescent light fade tests -- hardly exhaustive or particularly
sophisticated -- LPM did reasonably well, but not quite as good as EAM,
especially in the dark tones.

Eclipse is a paper I'm now leaning toward for long-term keeping
characteristics.  Of the limited sample of papers I've tested (those that
have been highlighted as favorites on this list), it's the only one that,
overall, did a little better than EAM.  It has brighteners, but not as much
as EAM.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com


___________________

 ricardo wrote:

The literature from Legion says:

Legion Photo Matte
100% alpha cellulose (sulphite paper)
pH: Neutral / Archival
Brightness: >90

i couldn't find any data on the longevity of pigmented dye inks on this
paper though

same for PE-T .. its pH neutral / Archival ... dont know how that translates
to longevity with MIS inks though..

Ricardo-

Thanks for the paper database <g>... You may wind up with a permanent 
job in this forum <vbg>

The one you missed that I like a lot is Museo...you might try it.

In reference to your clogging. I ran VM carts in my 1270 for almost a 
month without any clog whatsoever. Do you religiously turn the 
printer off when not actually using it (do you turn it off with the 
button on the printer only?). I was turning mine off at a switch box 
and when I'd turn it on again, would get a combination of clogs and 
drips (really)...emailed Epson tech support and they sent me a memo 
on the importance of turning it off and on correctly (sounded bogus 
to me) which worked immediately and perfectly.

Tom O'Connell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Ricardo,
> 
> Thanks for the review of the papers.
> 
> With respect to LPM, the one thing that I've noticed in my fade 
testing is
> that it yellows more than most -- almost twice as much as Epson 
Archival
> Matte.
> 
> The yellowing is generally believed to be the brighteners burning 
out with
> the UV light exposure.  Many believe that brighteners reduce the 
archival
> characteristics of the paper and negatively affect the image 
permanence.
> 
> In my fade testing I'm not sure I see any correlation between the
> brighteners and fading, but I can't test paper archival keeping.  
(And, I
> don't put much faith in the pH pens.)
> 
> In my fluorescent light fade tests -- hardly exhaustive or 
particularly
> sophisticated -- LPM did reasonably well, but not quite as good as 
EAM,
> especially in the dark tones.
> 
> Eclipse is a paper I'm now leaning toward for long-term keeping
> characteristics.  Of the limited sample of papers I've tested 
(those that
> have been highlighted as favorites on this list), it's the only one 
that,
> overall, did a little better than EAM.  It has brighteners, but not 
as much
> as EAM.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> ___________________
> 
>  ricardo wrote:
> 
> The literature from Legion says:
> 
> Legion Photo Matte
> 100% alpha cellulose (sulphite paper)
> pH: Neutral / Archival
> Brightness: >90
> 
> i couldn't find any data on the longevity of pigmented dye inks on 
this
> paper though
> 
> same for PE-T .. its pH neutral / Archival ... dont know how that 
translates
> to longevity with MIS inks though..

Ricardo
I really appreciated your review and impressions.  I am not an experienced
user so information like this is very valuable to me and the timing
impeccable.

Just this morning, I bought my first MIS VM cartridges along with a package
of Crane Museo paper, as suggested on the MIS site.  I, too, decided on
cartridges first before I go CIS.

I will be using a 1200 printer which I am buying from a friend this weekend.
(I gave up on my pursuit to get an 1160 and didn't want to pay for a later
model, so the 1200 seemed like a good compromise and good deal.)

It is reassuring to know that the setup process is painless and I am excited
about being able to try all the papers!

Thanks again.
Betty Walker

From Ricardo Lagos:
>I recently purchased a used Epson 1270 .. and bought a set of MIS VM
hextone innks from inksupply.
>First impressions -- even though almost everyone on this list is an
experienced user...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ricardo Lagos" 
<ricardo@s...> wrote:
> I recently purchased a used Epson 1270 .. and bought a set of MIS 
VM hextone innks from inksupply.
> 
> First impressions -- even though almost everyone on this list is an 
experienced user, i've seen several questions from people considering 
these products, so i think they will benefit..

Ricardo -- Thanks for all your comments, but no, I think I can 
reassure you that it's not the case that almost everyone here is an 
experienced user.  It may seem that way from a lot of the posters, 
but my guess is that there may be ten times as many lurkers (like me, 
so far) who are following what happens on the board but not 
participating much, and who aren't very experienced with black inks 
or even photography in general.  That certainly describes me.  So 
your info will be well used, I think.

I just yesterday got a set of MIS VM inks to use with an Epson 870.  
Perhaps I should just have bought the filled cartridges, but instead 
I got the 4 oz bottles and will experiment with filling virgin 
cartridges and managing the resetting of the chips via one or another 
of the various methods.   It cost about twice as much as a set of 
filled cartridges (I paid $100 for ink, cartridges, and refill 
tools), but I think I have enough ink for seven or eight refills. --  
Herb Sitz