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Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-25 by Kevin

What do I need to know about these two papers for B&W printing on my R2400?

In the past I've used the Epson Enhanced Matte for daily printing and the Aurora Art for my 
"best" work. However, I find that the Epson paper has a bit more pop and slightly better 
dmax and shadow detail.

I was under the impression that the Aurora would last longer (more archival) due to the fact 
that it was cotton and has no OBA's.

It's difficult to digest the piecemeal information out there.

As I understand it there's two factors in judging a paper's archivability: 1- image fading and 
2- yellowing of paper. Is this the case?

If so, what does that mean for the two papers in question.

fwiw, i display most of my prints in art portfolios/dark storage.

Thank you all...

Re: Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-25 by robert49brake

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <vinke@...> wrote:
>
> What do I need to know about these two papers for B&W printing on my R2400?
> 
> In the past I've used the Epson Enhanced Matte for daily printing and the Aurora Art for my 
> "best" work. However, I find that the Epson paper has a bit more pop and slightly better 
> dmax and shadow detail.
> 
> I was under the impression that the Aurora would last longer (more archival) due to the 
fact 
> that it was cotton and has no OBA's.

Hello Kevin, the EEM will yellow pretty rapidly.  take a fresh sheet out, cover half of it and 
leave it out for a week.  You won't even have to put it in the sun, just on top of a desk will 
usually do it.  Leave a printed image out and then a week later print the same image on a 
fresh sheet and compare.  See if you can live with the yellowing or not.

Re: [Digital BW] Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-25 by Richard Smallfield

Quoting Kevin <vinke@...>:
> In the past I've used the Epson Enhanced Matte for daily printing and
> the Aurora Art for my 
> "best" work. However, I find that the Epson paper has a bit more pop and
> slightly better 
> dmax and shadow detail.

I changed from Enhanced Matte to PremierArt Matte BW for portfolio and daily 
printing. It doesn't yellow as badly as EEM and has better handing of shadows 
in my opinion. The EEM can look a bit blotchy as it doesn't always hold the 
ink too well. And it's double-sided.

But that said I've had a BW neutral QTR (OEM Epson 2100) print above my PC 
unframed since March and the tones have gone very warm. The paper itself has 
warmed a bit.

The brigher papers will always give you more pop if that's what you want.

But I've actually got fade tests in my window at the moment and after six or 
more weeks the Aurora Natural and Entrada Natural haven't changed much - 
actually the Entrada has *lost* some warmth and a friend commented the the sun 
seemed to be bleaching it.

For better dMax I use Entrada Natural as my display printing paper for BW - 
noticeably better blacks than Aurora. But that is not always needed, so I do 
intend to buy more Aurora for lower contrast photos when I can afford more 
paper.

> I was under the impression that the Aurora would last longer (more
> archival) due to the fact 
> that it was cotton and has no OBA's.

In six to eight weeks in my window the EEM has actually reached the colour of 
the Aurora Natural, approximately. So the Aurora is far more stable, not 
having changed much at all.

> fwiw, i display most of my prints in art portfolios/dark storage.

In dark storage the EEM should last quite well I think. But a previous poster 
pointed out that merely leaving it on the table for a week causes yellowing 
and that's my experience, too.

I would opt for an acid & lignin-free paper at any rate, because it's more 
archival in the long term. IT Supplies is the place I went for my PremierArt 
paper and it was about the same price as Enhanced Matte. And double sided and 
not acidic. 

But no brightened paper will stay bright forever when light gets on it.

Good luck,
Richard

Re: Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-25 by Juan Riera

> In the past I've used the Epson Enhanced Matte for daily printing and 
the Aurora Art for my 
> "best" work. However, I find that the Epson paper has a bit more pop 
and slightly better 
> dmax and shadow detail.

I understand you're talking about EEM paper but not about Epson 
Archival Matte Paper. I have been using this one on last months for 
quick prints and i didn't notice any fading or yellowish taint. Gamut 
is not very large but I find it enough for my style of prints

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-25 by Richard Smallfield

Quoting Juan Riera <jriera_@...>:
> I understand you're talking about EEM paper but not about Epson 
> Archival Matte Paper. I have been using this one on last months for 
> quick prints and i didn't notice any fading or yellowish taint. Gamut 
> is not very large but I find it enough for my style of prints

Hi, Archival Matte and Enhanced Matte are the same thing. In my country, up to 
A3+ it's called Archival Matte and above that it's called Enhanced Matte. In 
the USA it's all called Enhanced Matte.

Richard

Re: [Digital BW] Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-25 by Richard Smallfield

Quoting Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...>:
> I changed from Enhanced Matte to PremierArt Matte BW for portfolio and
> daily 
> printing. It doesn't yellow as badly as EEM and has better handing of
> shadows 
> in my opinion. The EEM can look a bit blotchy as it doesn't always hold
> the 
> ink too well. And it's double-sided.

Sorry if that was misleading - I meant that the PremierArt, not the Enhanced 
Matte, is double-sided.

Richard

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-25 by Paul Roark

> Archival Matte and Enhanced Matte are the same thing. ...
> In the USA it's all called Enhanced Matte.

It's now re-names (again) to "Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte."


>I was under the impression that the Aurora would last longer 
>(more archival) due to the fact that it was cotton and has no OBA's.

>As I understand it there's two factors in judging a paper's archivability:
>1- image fading and 
>2- yellowing of paper. Is this the case?

>If so, what does that mean for the two papers in question.

The main variable in fading appears to be the inks, not the paper.  Pigments
are much more lightfast and resistant to gas (chemical) attack than standard
dyes.  Epson Claria dyes are far better than the other dyes.  The pigments
are also much less affected by the paper.  Some papers appear to protect the
pigments more than others, but if you have a very good pigment ink, it'll
probably do well on most papers.

Dyes can do reasonably well in fade tests if they are on special (e.g.,
"swellable emulsion") papers, but it limits the paper choices, and they are
still not close to the best pigments in longevity.

The yellowing is caused by at least 2 things: acidity and OBAs.
Enhanced/Archival matte paper is acidic, which makes it inherently
non-archival.  The acids cut the cellulose fibers, among other things.  

The OBAs (optical brightening agents) are dyes that absorb UV and re-emit as
visible light.  As dyes, they'll fade, leaving the paper look more like an
"un-brightened" or "natural" paper.  This will give the appearance of the
paper yellowing, but it may not have any impact on the image fade rate.  On
the other hand the best papers I've tested to not have OBAs in them.  I'll
test the Premier Art Hot Press (the best fade test I've conducted and what
Epson calls its most archival paper) against Premier Art Smooth Bright White
at some point.  The Smooth BW is, apparently, the same paper, but with OBAs
added.

Premier Art and perhaps other paper companies are also starting to use
titanium dioxide to whiten paper.  This very white pigment is very
lightfast, but it does not have the UV-to-visible light conversion
characteristic of the OBA dyes.  As best I can tell the companies are using
a mix of both TO2 and OBAs to get a paper that is bright but will not warm
too much or too quickly.  While I resisted brightened papers for a while,
I'm starting to use the Premier Art Smooth BW now with my carbon pigment for
the same reason most use bright papers -- they can look very good.  I'm
keeping my fingers crossed with respect to the OBA fading.

Note that the general source of the acids in paper is the breakdown of
lignin.  Lignin is the hard part of wood that allows trees to stand upright.
It's absent from cotton, which is almost pure cellulose (which is good).
Lignin needs to be removed from wood-based papers to make them archival
"alpha cellulose."  

Lignin itself is photo sensitive and will yellow.  To test for it in EEM I
put EEM as well as a number of other papers on the surface of a UV light for
about 100 hours.  Cheap paper samples yellowed badly.  The good cotton
papers actually became lighter -- bleaching out, like Richard observed.
Oddly, the EEM sample, paper back to the UV light, also bleached out.  That
and a test conducted by a paper expert on a different forum indicate that
the paper itself may actually be quite good.  The acidity has apparently
been added intentionally for a better image quality.  (An Epson rep
commented that the paper has a pH close to vinegar.)  For whatever reason,
EEM does yellow relatively quickly.  Note that Wilhelm rates its life at
about 110 years due to this, and stories from hot, high humidity areas
indicate EEM can yellow in a matter of months in such environments.

The bottom line is to use the best pigments on acid free paper and
understand that even good paper with OBAs will appear to yellow as the OBAs
fade.  Some OBAs are better than others, but the more OBAs, the more likely
the image will appear to warm with age.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-26 by boping_xie@ea.epson.com

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Richard Smallfield [r.smallfield@...]
Sent: 12/26/2007 12:24 AM ZE12
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural



Quoting Kevin <vinke@...>:
> In the past I've used the Epson Enhanced Matte for daily printing and
> the Aurora Art for my 
> "best" work. However, I find that the Epson paper has a bit more pop and
> slightly better 
> dmax and shadow detail.

I changed from Enhanced Matte to PremierArt Matte BW for portfolio and daily 
printing. It doesn't yellow as badly as EEM and has better handing of shadows 
in my opinion. The EEM can look a bit blotchy as it doesn't always hold the 
ink too well. And it's double-sided.

But that said I've had a BW neutral QTR (OEM Epson 2100) print above my PC 
unframed since March and the tones have gone very warm. The paper itself has 
warmed a bit.

The brigher papers will always give you more pop if that's what you want.

But I've actually got fade tests in my window at the moment and after six or 
more weeks the Aurora Natural and Entrada Natural haven't changed much - 
actually the Entrada has *lost* some warmth and a friend commented the the sun 
seemed to be bleaching it.

For better dMax I use Entrada Natural as my display printing paper for BW - 
noticeably better blacks than Aurora. But that is not always needed, so I do 
intend to buy more Aurora for lower contrast photos when I can afford more 
paper.

> I was under the impression that the Aurora would last longer (more
> archival) due to the fact 
> that it was cotton and has no OBA's.

In six to eight weeks in my window the EEM has actually reached the colour of 
the Aurora Natural, approximately. So the Aurora is far more stable, not 
having changed much at all.

> fwiw, i display most of my prints in art portfolios/dark storage.

In dark storage the EEM should last quite well I think. But a previous poster 
pointed out that merely leaving it on the table for a week causes yellowing 
and that's my experience, too.

I would opt for an acid & lignin-free paper at any rate, because it's more 
archival in the long term. IT Supplies is the place I went for my PremierArt 
paper and it was about the same price as Enhanced Matte. And double sided and 
not acidic. 

But no brightened paper will stay bright forever when light gets on it.

Good luck,
Richard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Follow Up Questions

2007-12-26 by Kevin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <vinke@...> wrote:
>
> What do I need to know about these two papers for B&W printing on my R2400?
> 
> In the past I've used the Epson Enhanced Matte for daily printing and the Aurora Art for 
my 
> "best" work. However, I find that the Epson paper has a bit more pop and slightly better 
> dmax and shadow detail.
> 
> I was under the impression that the Aurora would last longer (more archival) due to the 
fact 
> that it was cotton and has no OBA's.
> 
> It's difficult to digest the piecemeal information out there.
> 
> As I understand it there's two factors in judging a paper's archivability: 1- image fading 
and 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 2- yellowing of paper. Is this the case?
> 
> If so, what does that mean for the two papers in question.
> 
> fwiw, i display most of my prints in art portfolios/dark storage.
> 
> Thank you all...
>

[Digital BW] Re: Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-26 by Kevin

well, as you know, the Aurora Natural is already more yellow. How will the yellowing of 
EEM effect the print itself? Also, which paper (with the R2400 inks) will be more fade 
resistant in an album?

any opinions on the Moab Entrada Natural vs. the Aurora Natural?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> > Archival Matte and Enhanced Matte are the same thing. ...
> > In the USA it's all called Enhanced Matte.
> 
> It's now re-names (again) to "Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte."
> 
> 
> >I was under the impression that the Aurora would last longer 
> >(more archival) due to the fact that it was cotton and has no OBA's.
> 
> >As I understand it there's two factors in judging a paper's archivability:
> >1- image fading and 
> >2- yellowing of paper. Is this the case?
> 
> >If so, what does that mean for the two papers in question.
> 
> The main variable in fading appears to be the inks, not the paper.  Pigments
> are much more lightfast and resistant to gas (chemical) attack than standard
> dyes.  Epson Claria dyes are far better than the other dyes.  The pigments
> are also much less affected by the paper.  Some papers appear to protect the
> pigments more than others, but if you have a very good pigment ink, it'll
> probably do well on most papers.
> 
> Dyes can do reasonably well in fade tests if they are on special (e.g.,
> "swellable emulsion") papers, but it limits the paper choices, and they are
> still not close to the best pigments in longevity.
> 
> The yellowing is caused by at least 2 things: acidity and OBAs.
> Enhanced/Archival matte paper is acidic, which makes it inherently
> non-archival.  The acids cut the cellulose fibers, among other things.  
> 
> The OBAs (optical brightening agents) are dyes that absorb UV and re-emit as
> visible light.  As dyes, they'll fade, leaving the paper look more like an
> "un-brightened" or "natural" paper.  This will give the appearance of the
> paper yellowing, but it may not have any impact on the image fade rate.  On
> the other hand the best papers I've tested to not have OBAs in them.  I'll
> test the Premier Art Hot Press (the best fade test I've conducted and what
> Epson calls its most archival paper) against Premier Art Smooth Bright White
> at some point.  The Smooth BW is, apparently, the same paper, but with OBAs
> added.
> 
> Premier Art and perhaps other paper companies are also starting to use
> titanium dioxide to whiten paper.  This very white pigment is very
> lightfast, but it does not have the UV-to-visible light conversion
> characteristic of the OBA dyes.  As best I can tell the companies are using
> a mix of both TO2 and OBAs to get a paper that is bright but will not warm
> too much or too quickly.  While I resisted brightened papers for a while,
> I'm starting to use the Premier Art Smooth BW now with my carbon pigment for
> the same reason most use bright papers -- they can look very good.  I'm
> keeping my fingers crossed with respect to the OBA fading.
> 
> Note that the general source of the acids in paper is the breakdown of
> lignin.  Lignin is the hard part of wood that allows trees to stand upright.
> It's absent from cotton, which is almost pure cellulose (which is good).
> Lignin needs to be removed from wood-based papers to make them archival
> "alpha cellulose."  
> 
> Lignin itself is photo sensitive and will yellow.  To test for it in EEM I
> put EEM as well as a number of other papers on the surface of a UV light for
> about 100 hours.  Cheap paper samples yellowed badly.  The good cotton
> papers actually became lighter -- bleaching out, like Richard observed.
> Oddly, the EEM sample, paper back to the UV light, also bleached out.  That
> and a test conducted by a paper expert on a different forum indicate that
> the paper itself may actually be quite good.  The acidity has apparently
> been added intentionally for a better image quality.  (An Epson rep
> commented that the paper has a pH close to vinegar.)  For whatever reason,
> EEM does yellow relatively quickly.  Note that Wilhelm rates its life at
> about 110 years due to this, and stories from hot, high humidity areas
> indicate EEM can yellow in a matter of months in such environments.
> 
> The bottom line is to use the best pigments on acid free paper and
> understand that even good paper with OBAs will appear to yellow as the OBAs
> fade.  Some OBAs are better than others, but the more OBAs, the more likely
> the image will appear to warm with age.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Re: [Digital BW] Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-26 by Kevin

Interesting, Richard.

As you've used both, can you tell me a little bit more about the Aurora Natural vs. the 
Entrada Natural?

http://www.moabpaper.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=117

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Smallfield 
<r.smallfield@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Quoting Kevin <vinke@...>:
> > In the past I've used the Epson Enhanced Matte for daily printing and
> > the Aurora Art for my 
> > "best" work. However, I find that the Epson paper has a bit more pop and
> > slightly better 
> > dmax and shadow detail.
> 
> I changed from Enhanced Matte to PremierArt Matte BW for portfolio and daily 
> printing. It doesn't yellow as badly as EEM and has better handing of shadows 
> in my opinion. The EEM can look a bit blotchy as it doesn't always hold the 
> ink too well. And it's double-sided.
> 
> But that said I've had a BW neutral QTR (OEM Epson 2100) print above my PC 
> unframed since March and the tones have gone very warm. The paper itself has 
> warmed a bit.
> 
> The brigher papers will always give you more pop if that's what you want.
> 
> But I've actually got fade tests in my window at the moment and after six or 
> more weeks the Aurora Natural and Entrada Natural haven't changed much - 
> actually the Entrada has *lost* some warmth and a friend commented the the sun 
> seemed to be bleaching it.
> 
> For better dMax I use Entrada Natural as my display printing paper for BW - 
> noticeably better blacks than Aurora. But that is not always needed, so I do 
> intend to buy more Aurora for lower contrast photos when I can afford more 
> paper.
> 
> > I was under the impression that the Aurora would last longer (more
> > archival) due to the fact 
> > that it was cotton and has no OBA's.
> 
> In six to eight weeks in my window the EEM has actually reached the colour of 
> the Aurora Natural, approximately. So the Aurora is far more stable, not 
> having changed much at all.
> 
> > fwiw, i display most of my prints in art portfolios/dark storage.
> 
> In dark storage the EEM should last quite well I think. But a previous poster 
> pointed out that merely leaving it on the table for a week causes yellowing 
> and that's my experience, too.
> 
> I would opt for an acid & lignin-free paper at any rate, because it's more 
> archival in the long term. IT Supplies is the place I went for my PremierArt 
> paper and it was about the same price as Enhanced Matte. And double sided and 
> not acidic. 
> 
> But no brightened paper will stay bright forever when light gets on it.
> 
> Good luck,
> Richard
>

Re: [Digital BW] Epson's Premium/Enhanced Matte and Red River Aurora Art natural

2007-12-26 by Richard Smallfield

Hi Kevin,
I've only tested Aurora Natural, not used it a lot.

But I found that the Entrada Natural had better blacks, so ordered some boxes 
of that paper and have been very happy indeed with the results. I do intend to 
order some boxes of the Aurora for images where the dMax is not so important, 
as it's far cheaper. It's a great buy.

Also the Entrada is 300gsm as opposed to 250gsm for the Aurora. This can be an 
advantage when printing large prints, as the thicker paper should lie flatter 
in the frame I think.

good luck,
Richard

Quoting Kevin <vinke@...>:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Interesting, Richard.
> As you've used both, can you tell me a little bit more about the Aurora
> Natural vs. the 
> Entrada Natural?
> 
> http://www.moabpaper.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=117

Re: Follow Up Questions

2007-12-27 by Clayton Jones

Hello Kevin,

>What do I need to know about these two papers for B&W printing on 
>my R2400?

These are good questions and the answers are all intertwined, so it
can be confusing, but I'll have a go at it.


>In the past I've used the Epson Enhanced Matte for daily printing 
>and the Aurora Art for my "best" work. 

Not sure what you mean by "daily printing" so let me first put forth a
couple of concepts that my paper comments will be based on so they
will make better sense.  I think in terms of proof prints and final
prints.  Any print that I give away or sell is a final print and I
want it to be my best quality work because it's going out there in the
world and who knows who will ultimately see it or where it will end
up.  So I want final prints to always be on good looking archival
papers.  

Proof or test prints are prints made during the workup of an image. 
The only time I send these out into the world is if they are a "proof"
in the sense of showing, for example, a portrait customer a sample for
approval or selection.  Otherwise these get torn in half and go into
the recycle bin when the workup is done and are never seen by anyone else.


>However, I find that the Epson paper has a bit more pop and slightly 
>better dmax and shadow detail.

EEM is a really good looking paper, with contrast, density and dmax
very similar to many of the very best matte papers.  Unfortunately
it yellows rapidly and is not acid free, so is not suitable for final
prints.  However these three qualities, along with being less
expensive, make it an excellent paper for proof prints.  It's not much
help when test prints look different than final prints, so EEM allows
us to make good test prints without using the more expensive papers. 
That's its main claim to fame and it's very popular for that.

EEM's appearance is especially close to that of Photo Rag (PR) and
Velvet Fine Art (VFA), two of my favorites and ones which pretty much
set the standard for matte paper dmax.  With K3 inks, VFA is a
particularly close match to EEM (no surprise since both are Epson
papers).  My images rarely need much, if any, adjusting when printed
on VFA.  PR is almost as close a match.  Other papers require slightly
more adjusting (for example, Innova papers have similar contrast but
print a bit darker, requiring a slight density adjustment).  But
generally speaking EEM is right in the middle of the pack for many top
notch papers and for proofing it's hard to beat.


>I was under the impression that the Aurora would last longer (more 
>archival) due to the fact that it was cotton and has no OBA's.  

That's probably true, but just for clarification, "Archival" primarily
refers to acid free.  Cotton doesn't automatically mean acid free, and
non-cotton paper doesn't automatically mean non-archival either. 
There are many fine alpha-cellulose acid free archival papers, with
and without OBAs.  There are also different kinds of OBAs.  Not all
OBA-containing papers lose their whiteness like EEM, and not everyone
considers the presence of OBAs to mean non archival.  Each paper has
to be judged on it's own merits.  I've got prints on Hawk Mtn's fine
Condor and Merlin papers, and Moab's Kayenta, all bright white papers,
that have been around the house, unprotected, for several years and
still haven't lost their whiteness.  My older VFA and PR prints also
look great.  Some of these are 5+ years old now.  All have OBAs. 


>As I understand it there's two factors in judging a paper's 
>archivability: 1- image fading and 2- yellowing of paper. Is 
>this the case?

Yes, ink fading and paper yellowing are two different things, and not
necessarily related.  EEM yellows rapidly (literally in a few weeks,
probably because of some kind of short lived OBA), but good ink on it
doesn't fade quickly.  I've got an EEM Eboni BO print that's been
getting direct sunlight on my window sill for over four years now. 
It's dingy looking from the yellowed paper but the ink hasn't faded. 
Who knows, it might last just as long as a VFA print before fading.

But inks do fade more quickly on some papers than others.  This
Wilhelm web page lists the longevity of several papers with K3 inks
(see page 3 for the ABW results)

  http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html


>If so, what does that mean for the two papers in question.

If you want an archival paper that looks as good as EEM then I
recommend VFA for the 2400 (or PR if you don't like VFA's texture). 
IMO these are the closest match, especially in the dmax dept.  Most
others, like Aurora, have lesser dmax (see article #5 at the link
below).  I have a 2400 and have tried lots of papers with it.  I've
found that VFA has slightly better dmax than PR with K3 ink, where PR
wins with MIS inks.  EEM, besides yellowing quickly (even if you like
the look), is not acid free and will probably eventually develop acid
stains.

I hope this helps.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Follow Up Questions

2007-12-27 by Kevin

Thanks for your reply.

I rarely proof, but simply print and store images in the Itoya Art 
presentation folders. Truth be told, I'm not too interested in the 
techical aspects of anything photography related. Simplicity is key for 
me...good results with minimal effort. 

I really like the warm/natural look of the Aurora Natural, so is there 
anything comprable, around the same price, but with better dmax and/or 
shadow detail? Maybe the Epson Scrapbook Paper.

Longevity is an issue for me. I'd like something that will stand up 
over time and be suitable for framing...say, if someday, my 
grandchildren find my albums and want to diplay one of the prints in a 
frame.

Maybe what I'm asking for is too simplicitic and just a pipedream?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"

Re: Follow Up Questions

2007-12-28 by Clayton Jones

Hello Kevin,

>I rarely proof, but simply print and store images in the Itoya Art 
>presentation folders. 

You mean you never make a print and discard it and make another
because it needs more contrast or something?  


>Truth be told, I'm not too interested in the 
>techical aspects of anything photography related. Simplicity is key 
>for me...good results with minimal effort. 

I too am a fan of simplicity and am not inclined to get too technical.
 The 2400 is a great printer for this approach, so you're already on
first base.  Article #9 on the web link below outlines a simple
workflow for the 2400 - good BW printing doesn't get any easier than this.


>I really like the warm/natural look of the Aurora Natural, so is
>there anything comprable, around the same price, but with better 
>dmax and/or shadow detail? 

Not to my knowledge.  Maybe one of the Premier papers...or perhaps
Innova.  But I'm doubtful that any other matte paper has dmax equal to
PR and VFA.  I haven't tried everything, but if there was such a paper
it would be discussed here.  I highly recommend trying a box of VFA,
it's the only way you'll ever know if you'll like it.  It's really
gorgeous with K3 inks - the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with
K3.  It isn't as warm in color as most "natural" papers, but it isn't
a bright white paper either.  It's more expensive than Aurora, but you
get what you pay for.


>Longevity is an issue for me. I'd like something that will stand up 
>over time and be suitable for framing...say, if someday, my 
>grandchildren find my albums and want to diplay one of the prints in 
>a frame.

All the more reason not to make final prints on EEM.



>Maybe what I'm asking for is too simplicitic and just a pipedream?

Not at all, it doesn't have to be complicated.  Please read articles
#8 and #9 at the link below.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Follow Up Questions

2007-12-28 by Clayton Jones

Hello Kevin,

>I rarely proof, but simply print and store images in the Itoya Art 
>presentation folders. 

You mean you never make a print and discard it and make another
because it needs more contrast or something?  


>Truth be told, I'm not too interested in the 
>techical aspects of anything photography related. Simplicity is key 
>for me...good results with minimal effort. 

I too am a fan of simplicity and am not inclined to get too technical.
 The 2400 is a great printer for this approach, so you're already on
first base.  Article #9 on the web link below outlines a simple
workflow for the 2400 - good BW printing doesn't get any easier than this.


>I really like the warm/natural look of the Aurora Natural, so is
>there anything comprable, around the same price, but with better 
>dmax and/or shadow detail? 

Not to my knowledge.  Maybe one of the Premier papers...or perhaps
Innova.  But I'm doubtful that any other matte paper has dmax equal to
PR and VFA.  I haven't tried everything, but if there was such a paper
it would be discussed here.  I highly recommend trying a box of VFA,
it's the only way you'll ever know if you'll like it.  It's really
gorgeous with K3 inks - the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with
K3.  It isn't as warm in color as most "natural" papers, but it isn't
a bright white paper either.  It's more expensive than Aurora, but you
get what you pay for.


>Longevity is an issue for me. I'd like something that will stand up 
>over time and be suitable for framing...say, if someday, my 
>grandchildren find my albums and want to diplay one of the prints in 
>a frame.

All the more reason not to make final prints on EEM.



>Maybe what I'm asking for is too simplicitic and just a pipedream?

Not at all, it doesn't have to be complicated.  Please read articles
#8 and #9 at the link below.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

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