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Am I destroying image quality

Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by glemasurier

Am I destroying image quality by my workflow?

1)  I shoot JPEG and convert to 16-bit using the "mode" in CS to do editing. I convert back 
to 8-bit to save and before printing. Am I actually achieving anything? Am I affecting my 
image negatively?

2) If I change the image size up and down, does that alter the digital file or affect image 
quality? I usually save the image in its original file size/resolution, but sometimes change 
image size several times on the file I'm using to print.

Cheers,
George Le Masurier

RE: [Digital BW] Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: glemasurier
> 
> Am I destroying image quality by my workflow?
> 
> 1)  I shoot JPEG and convert to 16-bit using the "mode" in CS 
> to do editing. I convert back 
> to 8-bit to save and before printing. Am I actually achieving 
> anything? Am I affecting my image negatively?

Not a whole heck of a lot. If you tweak your images by doing lots and lots
of curves on top of curves, as opposed to using adjustment layers, then you
might, under some extreme circumstances, see a slight degradation. Where
you're really losing is in shooting JPEG in the first place, assuming your
camera has a raw mode, since JPEG discards maybe a stop or so of dynamic
range from the high end. Also, it discards dynamic range at the low end, but
that's only an issue for quiet cameras at low ISO settings, where eight bits
aren't enough to represent the tiny amount of noise.

> 2) If I change the image size up and down, does that alter 
> the digital file or affect image 
> quality? I usually save the image in its original file 
> size/resolution, but sometimes change 
> image size several times on the file I'm using to print.

Upsizing it can theoretically lose a tiny bit of the highest spatial
frequencies, but typical cameras don't really have enough of those high
frequencies to matter, thanks to the anti-alias filter over the sensor, not
to mention imperfections in the focus. Obviously, you lose detail when you
downsize, though.

I always do all my editing at the native resolution that comes out of the
camera, do a _tiny_ bit of sharpening (just enough that I can barely see it
at 1:1 on the screen), save that as my master finished image, and then
resize down for the web with additional sharpening. For printing, there's
some argument for explicitly resizing to the native resolution of the
printer driver (i.e., 720ppi for Epson desktops, 360ppi for Epson large
format), rather than letting the driver do it, since who the heck knows how
good an algorithm the driver has. But I've never bothered with that, always
getting good enough results letting the printer driver do whatever resizing
it needs to do.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by glemasurier

Thanks, Paul. I haven't tried RAW because of computing power and storage space, and the 
extra hassle of converting them to TIFFs or the PSD files that I usually use. Perhaps the 
better question then is to ask if converting to 16-bit for editing actually does me any 
good?

On image size, do you mean setting the finished print size and letting resolution fall where 
it may? That's what I have been doing, and have had fairly good results up to 12 x 18 on a 
2400.

Cheers,
George

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Eric Neilsen

I'd HIGHLY recommend that you reconsider your work flow to include RAW
shooting. JPEG is just trimming too much good stuff. If your print size is
limited to maybe 8x10 and smaller, you may not see much change. And if you
really can not afford a bit more space for files, at least get yourself
Qimage to resize for printing and web use from your one original file. I
think you'll be much happier with your work. 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  
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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
glemasurier
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:17 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

 

Thanks, Paul. I haven't tried RAW because of computing power and storage
space, and the 
extra hassle of converting them to TIFFs or the PSD files that I usually
use. Perhaps the 
better question then is to ask if converting to 16-bit for editing actually
does me any 
good?

On image size, do you mean setting the finished print size and letting
resolution fall where 
it may? That's what I have been doing, and have had fairly good results up
to 12 x 18 on a 
2400.

Cheers,
George

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Paul Grant

I think shooting in Jpeg and Converting to 16 bit is a waste of time.
Just shooting in Jpeg tosses out about ½ your pixels.  Changing to 16 bit I
don’t think is going to save you much.

 

As pointed out earlier if you are going to shoot jpeg, keep in your original
resolution until you get to your final know output size.

 

Regards,

Paul
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From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
glemasurier
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 8:09 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Am I destroying image quality

 

Am I destroying image quality by my workflow?

1) I shoot JPEG and convert to 16-bit using the "mode" in CS to do editing.
I convert back 
to 8-bit to save and before printing. Am I actually achieving anything? Am I
affecting my 
image negatively?

2) If I change the image size up and down, does that alter the digital file
or affect image 
quality? I usually save the image in its original file size/resolution, but
sometimes change 
image size several times on the file I'm using to print.

Cheers,
George Le Masurier

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Shoshanna

glemasurier wrote:

 >Am I destroying image quality by my workflow?



.




Yes.

JPG is, and has always been, what is called a "lossy" format;  every 
time the file is re-saved, data is dropped and lost from the image.  
Permanently.  Since a JPG image is already heavily compressed, and its 
composition starts out seriously compromised, the way in which you're 
working is only making a bad situation considerably worse. 

If you insist on shooting JPG instead of RAW, the very first thing you 
should do upon opening a file is to IMMEDIATELY save it in a non-lossy 
file format, such as TIF.  Close your original JPG file without making 
ANY changes to it, and apply all editing changes to your TIF version.  
Thus, your original file remains undamaged, and you can do anything you 
like to the TIF file without it suffering data loss. 

A JPG file, by the way, is NOT a digital negative-- it is a fully 
processed image file for which any number of critical decisions have 
already been automatically made by the camera.   The closest you can 
come to a digital version of a film negative is to shoot RAW, which 
produces an unprocessed file.  This allows the photographer considerable 
latitude in its "development" and there is no need to overcome and 
correct the "decisions" that are automatically made when the camera 
created a JPG file.  Another important plus-- at least for many of us-- 
is that a RAW file can be successfully enlarged to considerably greater 
dimensions, while maintaining considerably greater quality, than can a 
JPG file.  The image has far more data with which to work, and it shows. 

If, however, you really want to stick with shooting JPGs, at the very 
least do yourself the favor of saving your image in a non-lossy format 
before doing anything to it.  I've been using Photoshop since 1992 and 
always save my working files in the native PSD format, but many people 
seem to prefer TIF.  Just never forget that everytime you re-save your 
JPG file, it's dropping data that you can't recover.

Best wishes,

Shoshanna
http://www.pbase.com/shoshanna

Re: [Digital BW] Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Tony Sleep

On 05/01/2008 glemasurier wrote:
> 
> 1) I shoot JPEG and convert to 16-bit using the "mode" in CS to do 
> editing. I convert back
> to 8-bit to save and before printing. Am I actually achieving 
> anything? Am I affecting my
> image negatively?

If I had to shott Jpeg I would do the same, but the real problem is the 
Jpeg original throws away so much that you cannot get back. Have a look at 
http://tonysleep.co.uk/info/digital-workflow
> 
> 2) If I change the image size up and down, does that alter the 
> digital file or affect image
> quality? I usually save the image in its original file 
> size/resolution, but sometimes change
> image size several times on the file I'm using to print.

Disastrous. You need to keep a master copy and derive all resizes from 
that as copies. Iteratively resizing the same file degrades the image at 
each step.
-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Frank Jay

Shoshanna wrote <<<<< Another important plus-- at least for many of us-- 
is that a RAW file can be successfully enlarged to considerably greater 
dimensions, while maintaining considerably greater quality, than can a 
JPG file. The image has far more data with which to work, and it shows.>>>
   
   
  Can you explain the above please Shoshanna. I was under the impression that RAW files can't be printed as a RAW file, but must be translated to another type of file. I admit I have tons of holes in my digital and PS knowledge and I must have heard or read this and believed it.  Ques is.............. How does one enlarge directly from a RAW file?....OR, am I confusing, enlarging with printing.
  thannks 
  FRank 




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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Jim Goshorn

On Jan 5, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Frank Jay wrote:

> Can you explain the above please Shoshanna. I was under the  
> impression that RAW files can't be printed as a RAW file, but must  
> be translated to another type of file. I admit I have tons of holes  
> in my digital and PS knowledge and I must have heard or read this  
> and believed it.  Ques is.............. How does one enlarge  
> directly from a RAW file?....OR, am I confusing, enlarging with  
> printing.

JPEG files can have what are referred to as artifacts. These may be  
from for example, in camera sharpening or data compression. Also  
remember that JPEG are 8 bit images which would be able to contain  
256 (2^8) different tonalities. On the other hand, RAW can be  
processed at 16 bit which would be 65,536 (2^16) tonalities. If you  
have ever worked on an image in Photoshop and saw gaps in your  
histogram appear, that happens because adjustments in the image have  
been too extreme for the amount of data (tonalities) in the image. If  
those gaps become significant enough you may start to see  
posterization (unnatural tonalities) in the image. That situation  
happens much easier in 8 bit images with 256 than 65,536 tonalities.

In my workflow, I process the RAW image in Adobe Camera RAW, open it  
directly into Photoshop, do my image manipulations, save the  
Photoshop file as a master file and when I want to print it, I save a  
flattened _copy_ of the master file for that purpose.

As far as enlarging, that is controlled either by specifying an  
output size in your RAW processing software of choice or in Photoshop  
with the Image Size dialog. You have to specify the dimensions and  
how many pixels per inch (PPI) you want the resulting image to be.

Jim

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: glemasurier
> 
> Thanks, Paul. I haven't tried RAW because of computing power 
> and storage space, and the 
> extra hassle of converting them to TIFFs or the PSD files 
> that I usually use.

At 25 cents a gigabyte, that's no excuse. ;-) Don't know what software you
use, but Photoshop can open raw files directly. You'll get much better
results.

> Perhaps the 
> better question then is to ask if converting to 16-bit for 
> editing actually does me any good?

Probably not. I never bother if I start with a JPEG. It certainly doesn't
hurt, though.

> On image size, do you mean setting the finished print size 
> and letting resolution fall where 
> it may? That's what I have been doing, and have had fairly 
> good results up to 12 x 18 on a 2400.

Yes. But once in a while, you can get into trouble with moire if the image
contains any fine pattern detail, because the default for the Epson driver
is just to resize using what Photoshop calls "nearest neighbor"
interpolation, which is really no interpolation at all. Current Epson
drivers have an "edge smoothing" option, which I believe tells it to do some
real interpolation, but if you get into trouble with moire the best thing to
do is explicitly resize to the next higher number that's an integral
subdivision of 720ppi (720, 360, 240, 180, etc.). That way, you'll get a
chance to see if there's any moire before you print. In Photoshop, you have
several filtering options when you resize, so you can choose one according
to how much moire results. But this is only for the rare image that has fine
patterns in it.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Frank Jay
> 
>   I was under the 
> impression that RAW files can't be printed as a RAW file, but 
> must be translated to another type of file. I admit I have 
> tons of holes in my digital and PS knowledge and I must have 
> heard or read this and believed it.  Ques is.............. 
> How does one enlarge directly from a RAW file?....OR, am I 
> confusing, enlarging with printing.

They don't necessarily have to be translated to another type of file. A raw
file is just another file format like JPEG. When you open a file in some
editor program like Photoshop, whether it's a JPEG, TIFF, PSD or raw file,
it's converted into a plain array of uncompressed pixels, so while it's
sitting in your editor program, it's not really in any file format at all,
because it's sitting in RAM, not in a file.

The only real difference between raw and other formats is that opening a raw
file involves some interpolation, and involves guessing about the proper
white balance intended by the camera, so different programs produce somewhat
different results. Many people prefer the results that they get from a
separate conversion program like CaptureOne, which does indeed convert to
TIFF for subsequent opening in another program like Photoshop. But Photoshop
has its own raw converter that does a good job, and eliminates the need for
an intermediate TIFF.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

[Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by frankjay02

Thanks Paul, most of what you said I know, some I didn't...after 
reading your post, I dragged a CAnon RAW file to CS2 and it opened  
up in the RAW converter. When it is in that converter I am limited 
to what only can be done in that converter itself, not in CS2
(editing program. I then have to convert it to something else, which 
I always do TIFF before I edit it. 
  So my question still stands to Shoshanna's post, which I still 
don't understand, which is below this post. 

Shoshann wrote<<< Another important plus-- at least for many of us-- 
is that a RAW file can be successfully enlarged to considerably 
greater 
dimensions, while maintaining considerably greater quality, than can 
a JPG file. The image has far more data with which to work, and it 
shows.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I questioned.
   I was under the 
 impression that RAW files can't be printed as a RAW file, but 
 must be translated to another type of file. I admit I have 
tons of holes in my PS and digital knowledge and I  heard or read 
this and believed it.  Ques is.............. 
 How does one enlarge directly from a RAW file?....OR, am I 
 confusing, enlarging with printing.
 THanks again,
Frank

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by CorrPro96@aol.com

Yes you are.
In ACR, after you edit the DNG, hold down the ALT key and press "open as a  
copy".
 
Richard Massie
 
 
In a message dated 1/5/2008 11:51:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
frankjay02@... writes:

How does  one enlarge directly from a RAW file?....OR, am I 
confusing, enlarging  with printing.





**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


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RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: frankjay02
> 
> Thanks Paul, most of what you said I know, some I didn't...after 
> reading your post, I dragged a CAnon RAW file to CS2 and it opened  
> up in the RAW converter. When it is in that converter I am limited 
> to what only can be done in that converter itself, not in CS2 
> (editing program. I then have to convert it to something else, which 
> I always do TIFF before I edit it. 

The raw converter gives you a bunch of options, but the most important one
is the Exposure. You should set this to best fit the histogram, so that you
don't clip any highlights. But then you have a choice between saving the
image directly from the raw converter, or just opening it in Photoshop
without first saving it. The only time I ever tell it to save is if I'm
doing the same conversion on a bunch of related images which I want to open
in a separate program, typically for panorama stitching. Normally, I just
open a single image into Photoshop, and do my edits there, without ever
saving an intermediate un-edited TIFF. So if you do that, the only
difference between opening a raw file and opening a JPEG is that in the
former case you have some knobs to twiddle first.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Gary Weaver

I think the point is that once a RAW is opened/decoded, it's not a file and it's a new image (raster?). The RAW remains unchanged.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
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On 1/5/08 at 10:47 AM Jim Goshorn wrote:

>On Jan 5, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Frank Jay wrote:
>
>> Can you explain the above please Shoshanna. I was under the  
>> impression that RAW files can't be printed as a RAW file, but must  
>> be translated to another type of file. I admit I have tons of holes  
>> in my digital and PS knowledge and I must have heard or read this  
>> and believed it.  Ques is.............. How does one enlarge  
>> directly from a RAW file?....OR, am I confusing, enlarging with  
>> printing.
>
>JPEG files can have what are referred to as artifacts. These may be  
>from for example, in camera sharpening or data compression. Also  
>remember that JPEG are 8 bit images which would be able to contain  
>256 (2^8) different tonalities. On the other hand, RAW can be  
>processed at 16 bit which would be 65,536 (2^16) tonalities. If you  
>have ever worked on an image in Photoshop and saw gaps in your  
>histogram appear, that happens because adjustments in the image have  
>been too extreme for the amount of data (tonalities) in the image. If  
>those gaps become significant enough you may start to see  
>posterization (unnatural tonalities) in the image. That situation  
>happens much easier in 8 bit images with 256 than 65,536 tonalities.
>
>In my workflow, I process the RAW image in Adobe Camera RAW, open it  
>directly into Photoshop, do my image manipulations, save the  
>Photoshop file as a master file and when I want to print it, I save a  
>flattened _copy_ of the master file for that purpose.
>
>As far as enlarging, that is controlled either by specifying an  
>output size in your RAW processing software of choice or in Photoshop  
>with the Image Size dialog. You have to specify the dimensions and  
>how many pixels per inch (PPI) you want the resulting image to be.
>
>Jim
>
>
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Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Frank Jay

Thank you Jim, that is an answer to part of my question....the rest is...So, before prnting, even though I have done simple edits in the Adobe Raw processing, I can only print that image after it is converted from RAW to Tiff or Jpeg???..I use tiff.
   
  excerpt from Jim's post <<<<As far as enlarging, that is controlled either by specifying an 
output size in your RAW processing software of choice.......>>>>>
  thanks again
  Frank


"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
       
---------------------------------
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Re: Am I destroying image quality-Original Question

2008-01-05 by Clayton Jones

Hello George,

>I shoot JPEG and convert to 16-bit using the "mode" in CS to do 
>editing. I convert back to 8-bit to save and before printing. Am I 
>actually achieving anything? 

Yes, a little bit.  If you, for example, use a contrast adjustment
curve with 8-bit some combing will appear in the histogram.  If this
gets bad enough (depending on how much editing you do) it can cause
posterization in the print.  By going to 16-bit you give yourself a
bit more editing headroom, resulting in slightly less combing.

You can test this by using two copies of an image.  Convert one to
16-bit, put an identical contrast curve on both, then look at their
histograms.  It's not much but it helps.

I always do this with the jpgs from my pocket digicam.  With my DSLR I
always shoot RAW and convert to 16-bit in ACR.  Everything the others
have said about it is true.  Definitely worth doing.

>Am I affecting my image negatively?
I don't think so.  I haven't ever come to that conclusion.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by pglombick

I think it depends on what you ultimately want to use the image for. 
If you plan on doing more than just elementary adjustments in PS or 
plan to use the image for professional or fine art purposes, I 
strongly recommend shooting in RAW.

As Shoshanna has pointed out, your camera applies in-camera 
processing such as sharpening, etc. that you have no control over. 
While this may may your images look better out of the camera 
intially, it offers you little in the way of control to optimize an 
image and it can be difficult or impossible to reverse some of these 
adjustments.

Also, if you are making prints with fine tonal gradations, with 
repeated contrast adjustments or extreme adjustments, you will start 
to see gaps in the histogram which may or may not be detectable in 
the final image.

Certainly, if you use JPEG, your first step in the workflow should be 
to save the image as a TIFF or PSD as you lose data each time you 
save the image in JPEG format. 

You are also missing out on the advantages offered by such as 
increased dynamic range, noise reduction, white balance, etc.

Again, it depends on the intended use of the image. If you need to 
get the most out of your images, switch to RAW.

Paul G.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-05 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Frank Jay
> 
> Thank you Jim, that is an answer to part of my 
> question....the rest is...So, before prnting, even though I 
> have done simple edits in the Adobe Raw processing, I can 
> only print that image after it is converted from RAW to Tiff 
> or Jpeg???..I use tiff.

TIFF is just a file format. Whether you save your image as a TIFF file after
opening the raw file is totally separate from whether you print it. When you
open a file into Photoshop, whether it was a raw file, a TIFF file, or
whatever, it's no longer a file, it's just a bunch of pixel data in RAM
which Photoshop can operate on, including send to a printer. So it's
entirely possible to open a raw file into Photoshop, edit it, print it, and
never save the edited version anywhere, in which case it never takes the
form of a TIFF file.

The only real restriction is that assuming you do want to save your edited
image, you can't save it as a raw file, that being a read-only file format;
you have to choose some other format like TIFF, JPEG or PSD. But again, how
you save it has nothing to do with printing it.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-06 by Clayton Price

Dear Paul,

"pglombick" glombick@...   pglombick wrote:
<<<....The only real restriction is that assuming you do want to save  
your edited
image, you can't save it as a raw file, that being a read-only file  
format;
you have to choose some other format like TIFF, JPEG or PSD. But  
again, how
you save it has nothing to do with printing it.>>>

Actually, in the last few days you wrote quite a bit more, but I  
think your last sentence
above, is a good encapsulation.

First, assuming  your premise of not saving an edited RAW image is  
correct, then one would
ask what you think a DNG image is? ACR, which improves quite a bit  
with each new iteration,
has opened the possibility of doing an overall edit of any RAW image.  
When saved as DNG, or
for that matter, simply clicking "done" in ACR will save the changes  
to the original raw file, and it shows
up in Bridge with a small symbol indicating that it's been edited.   
One can go back to the original
raw image anytime they wish, simply by opening the image from the  
folder in which they are
stored -- in Bridge, then clicking, which opens it again in ACR. This  
is more than likely true for Light Room as well
(I don't use it, so I'm not sure). If the image is saved as DNG, a  
simple double click will directly open in ACR, where you
can change the RAW settings at will, and clicking "done" saves the  
changes - period. That's because, in simple terms,
the DNG saves the instructions one has adjusted, in what is becoming  
a universal format, and it opens showing
those instructions (read: editing)!  How does that translate, in your  
words, to RAW files being read-only?

I'm sure you know - at this point no information or image quality has  
been destroyed. Of course if the ACR information is
not used correctly (poor use of curves, for example), then converting  
the file to .psd, tiff,  will certainly yield an inferior
file, whether for print output, projection, for the web.... whatever!

To tie this together: Printing -- Many people can obtain their  
maximum needed quality just from RAW adjustments of their
files. I suppose going straight to print, without assigning a format  
other than RAW or DNG to the file would work for them --
I don't know much about printing that way - I'd guess there is some  
sort of automatic conversion to a printer-recognizable
format (jpg, I'd imagine), because to my knowledge, and I'm no  
beginner, printers need pixels to print an image. The better
the pixel quality, the better the prints, which is why a 300 ppi   
files will print better than a 120 ppi file, and some of us use
a 720 ppi image to maximize carbon pigment prints.

That said, I would venture to suggest that for most people on this  
list, printing images straight from RAW, as opposed to the opportunity
to make the myriad of subtle adjustments and changes permitted with  
adjustment layers to 16 bit psd files, not to mention sending
those files into the printer via RIP software such as Quadtone RIP  
and others, make a tremendous difference in control of the
final print quality.  In my opinion the only exception might be  
images shot in carefully lighted studio situations, where one can
obtain  perfect tonal, color and contrast values,  directly  into the  
RAW image exposure. And even then, I can think of
more than one reason that one may want to make some post-RAW  
processing changes.

So this brings us to the crux of the situation:  WHY would you want  
to print directly from RAW if your purpose as a photographer
is to produce the best possible quality?  And while we're at it,  
could you let us know from where you obtained what seems to
be, at best, theoretical information on RAW files, how they work,  
what they won't do, because IMHO, even if most of what you
wrote is provable, in practical use, little of it holds water.

Sincerely,
Clayton Price



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-06 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Clayton Price
> 
> First, assuming  your premise of not saving an edited RAW image is  
> correct, then one would
> ask what you think a DNG image is? ACR, which improves quite a bit  
> with each new iteration,
> has opened the possibility of doing an overall edit of any 
> RAW image.  
> When saved as DNG, or
> for that matter, simply clicking "done" in ACR will save the changes  
> to the original raw file, and it shows
> up in Bridge with a small symbol indicating that it's been edited.   
> One can go back to the original
> raw image anytime they wish, simply by opening the image from the  
> folder in which they are
> stored -- in Bridge, then clicking, which opens it again in 
> ACR. This  
> is more than likely true for Light Room as well
> (I don't use it, so I'm not sure). If the image is saved as DNG, a  
> simple double click will directly open in ACR, where you
> can change the RAW settings at will, and clicking "done" saves the  
> changes - period. That's because, in simple terms,
> the DNG saves the instructions one has adjusted, in what is becoming  
> a universal format, and it opens showing
> those instructions (read: editing)!  How does that translate, 
> in your  
> words, to RAW files being read-only?

As far as I know, no Adobe program ever modifies a camera's raw file;
instead, it stores the "edits" made in the raw converter in XML form either
to a sidecar .xmp file or to a central database, depending upon how
Photoshop is configured. On the other hand, DNG is an Adobe standard format
for raw (i.e., still Bayer encoded) camera data, so Photoshop probably does
store those conversion tweaks as XML embedded inside the DNG file. But in
any case, none of these "edits" are actually modifications to the pixel
data, they're just records of how the various sliders are set.

> To tie this together: Printing -- Many people can obtain their  
> maximum needed quality just from RAW adjustments of their 
> files. I suppose going straight to print, without assigning a format  
> other than RAW or DNG to the file would work for them --
> I don't know much about printing that way - I'd guess there is some  
> sort of automatic conversion to a printer-recognizable
> format (jpg, I'd imagine), because to my knowledge, and I'm no  
> beginner, printers need pixels to print an image. The better
> the pixel quality, the better the prints, which is why a 300 ppi   
> files will print better than a 120 ppi file, and some of us 
> use a 720 ppi image to maximize carbon pigment prints.
> 
> That said, I would venture to suggest that for most people on this  
> list, printing images straight from RAW, as opposed to the 
> opportunity to make the myriad of subtle adjustments and 
> changes permitted with  
> adjustment layers to 16 bit psd files, not to mention sending 
> those files into the printer via RIP software such as Quadtone RIP  
> and others, make a tremendous difference in control of the 
> final print quality.  In my opinion the only exception might be  
> images shot in carefully lighted studio situations, where one 
> can obtain  perfect tonal, color and contrast values,  
> directly  into the  
> RAW image exposure. And even then, I can think of
> more than one reason that one may want to make some post-RAW  
> processing changes.
> 
> So this brings us to the crux of the situation:  WHY would you want  
> to print directly from RAW if your purpose as a photographer
> is to produce the best possible quality?  And while we're at it,  
> could you let us know from where you obtained what seems to
> be, at best, theoretical information on RAW files, how they work,  
> what they won't do, because IMHO, even if most of what you 
> wrote is provable, in practical use, little of it holds water.

I agree, and I most certainly _wouldn't_ print without editing, not to
mention saving the edited version. In fact, I usually do lots of edits, way
beyond what you could ever do in any raw converter, then save my final
version as a quality 12 JPEG, since there's no need for more than eight bits
of resolution once you're ready to print. Indeed, printer drivers generally
only accept eight-bit data anyway, so obviously one would use curves and
other tools to extract the optimum range out of the larger raw data values.
Raw files are just that, "raw material".

My point was only to clarify that when you load a raw file into Photoshop,
you're not converting it to some other file format, you're only loading
image data into RAM where you can do what you want with it. The original
poster seemed to think that when you have an image open in Photoshop, it's
"in" some file format, when it's actually not in any file format at all,
because it's not in a file.

As to where I get my info on how raw files work, you can find data on the
web about Canon's raw format, and Adobe publishes a full DNG specification,
both of which I've studied.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-07 by Clayton Price

Hi Paul -
I'm glad to see that your bottom line is where it ought to be :-)))
The back and forth discussions were becoming confusing enough to
make one wonder what the real point was, which is why I wrote.

One question though --since you're saving your edited images as  
quality 12  jpg's,
what would you do if, for example, you had a saved final image which  
you printed
out at 16 x 20, and later you decided to print it as a 30 x 40?  As I  
see it, you'd have
two choices - 1) interpolate upward your 8 bit jpg, which not only  
will be problematic
by uprezing a compressed format image (even at 12, it's compressed)  
and the additional
potential problem with lossy formats, of additional data loss each  
time you make changes.
Or - 2) going back to the RAW or DNG (saved variations in (I think  
you meant?-- .XMP sidecar
files) and basically, starting all over again.

Why not simply save as tiff or psd  16 bit files, which will cause  
far fewer problems, even
though the file size is larger, and save you a lot of time?

Unless storage is a real problem, my own method is still another  
alternative, and that's
to retouch and optimize most of my image finals at an even larger  
size than I think I'll ever
want to print them. In that way, downsizing for any print size will  
basically minimize any
retouching that possibly could show at 100%. It's a little more  
necessary for me to do that,
since much of my work consists of photo collages, and sometimes  
master images
(with all the layers) can be upwards of two gigabytes.  I've had to  
get external storage up into the
terabytes range, and it's expensive, but seems to be the best  
solution for me.

Best,

Clay

Clayton Price Photographer
  www.cpricephoto.com
  clay@...
  212 929-7721	

Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
<<<I agree, and I most certainly _wouldn't_ print without editing,  
not to
mention saving the edited version. In fact, I usually do lots of  
edits, way
beyond what you could ever do in any raw converter, then save my final
version as a quality 12 JPEG, since there's no need for more than  
eight bits
of resolution once you're ready to print. Indeed, printer drivers  
generally
only accept eight-bit data anyway, so obviously one would use curves and
other tools to extract the optimum range out of the larger raw data  
values.
Raw files are just that, "raw material".>>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-07 by Mike

I used to deal with these issues but now Lightroom addresses many of 
them with speed and efficiency. It takes lots of time to process RAW 
files. My PC hates Bridge.  But Lightroom is both Bridge and RAW 
converter and is very fast and never alters the original file 
treating it as if it were a film negative.  
If you want to work in depth on a file, you click and you are in PS.  
When you are done you click and you are back in Lightroom with a 
edited copy in PSD or other format.  You can do many photographic 
corrections to files in Lightroom and process a zillion files at 
once.  If a file shows good exposure etc you can print right from 
Lightroom and never even open PS.  The printing concepts are 
identical to what we have been using in PS and the RAW converter is 
identical.  So now we have the best of both worlds: shoot RAW, 
customize exposures, make prints, slideshows, web galleries, etc, but 
when you want to do the PS stuff like layers, filters, etc, use links 
to go into and out of PS.  The printing "layout" functions even have 
a few features similar to RIPs for mass printing. I used it to print 
60 greeting cards and I saved lots of time. It will only get better. 
It uses presets so as you work and save settings, you can reuse 
them.  Plus it provides some fun presets and users are sharing and 
selling presets. The work flow is 1-lightroom to import organize and 
archive, 2-minor adjustments in Lightroom and major ones in PS if 
needed 3-lightroom for printing, slideshows and web galleries 
INSTANTLY. It automates many things that used to take hours. Lastly, 
I saw it on sale (50%)at B&H (I think)as a rebate if you buy certain 
hardware.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-07 by Mark Gilvey

I went to a Scott Kelby Lightroom Seminar in DC and he says, what  
ever you CAN do in Lightroom, you SHOULD do in Lightroom because it  
does it so much better than PS. He also states that the printing  
module is very powerful in Lightroom and to do similar layouts in PS  
would take forever. I concur.

Mark




On Jan 7, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Mike wrote:

> I used to deal with these issues but now Lightroom addresses many of
> them with speed and efficiency. It takes lots of time to process RAW
> files. My PC hates Bridge. But Lightroom is both Bridge and RAW
> converter and is very fast and never alters the original file
> treating it as if it were a film negative.
> If you want to work in depth on a file, you click and you are in PS.
> When you are done you click and you are back in Lightroom with a
> edited copy in PSD or other format. You can do many photographic
> corrections to files in Lightroom and process a zillion files at
> once. If a file shows good exposure etc you can print right from
> Lightroom and never even open PS. The printing concepts are
> identical to what we have been using in PS and the RAW converter is
> identical. So now we have the best of both worlds: shoot RAW,
> customize exposures, make prints, slideshows, web galleries, etc, but
> when you want to do the PS stuff like layers, filters, etc, use links
> to go into and out of PS. The printing "layout" functions even have
> a few features similar to RIPs for mass printing. I used it to print
> 60 greeting cards and I saved lots of time. It will only get better.
> It uses presets so as you work and save settings, you can reuse
> them. Plus it provides some fun presets and users are sharing and
> selling presets. The work flow is 1-lightroom to import organize and
> archive, 2-minor adjustments in Lightroom and major ones in PS if
> needed 3-lightroom for printing, slideshows and web galleries
> INSTANTLY. It automates many things that used to take hours. Lastly,
> I saw it on sale (50%)at B&H (I think)as a rebate if you buy certain
> hardware.
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-07 by Mark Savoia

If you print something out of PS and then LR, do they look exactly  
the same?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com




On Jan 7, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Mark Gilvey wrote:

> He also states that the printing
> module is very powerful in Lightroom and to do similar layouts in PS
> would take forever. I concur.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-07 by Mark Gilvey

I can't answer that, I have been using it mostly for making contact  
sheet PDFs of all my photoshoots. When I get a righteous printer, I  
will be able to answer that but one might think that the print dialog  
boxes will be the same. Is that enough? Maybe not.

Mark



On Jan 7, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Mark Savoia wrote:

> If you print something out of PS and then LR, do they look exactly
> the same?
>
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
>
> On Jan 7, 2008, at 11:24 AM, Mark Gilvey wrote:
>
> > He also states that the printing
> > module is very powerful in Lightroom and to do similar layouts in PS
> > would take forever. I concur.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-07 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Clayton Price
> 
> One question though --since you're saving your edited images as  
> quality 12  jpg's,
> what would you do if, for example, you had a saved final image which  
> you printed
> out at 16 x 20, and later you decided to print it as a 30 x 
> 40?  As I  
> see it, you'd have
> two choices - 1) interpolate upward your 8 bit jpg, which not only  
> will be problematic
> by uprezing a compressed format image (even at 12, it's compressed)  
> and the additional
> potential problem with lossy formats, of additional data loss each  
> time you make changes.
> Or - 2) going back to the RAW or DNG (saved variations in (I think  
> you meant?-- .XMP sidecar
> files) and basically, starting all over again.
> 
> Why not simply save as tiff or psd  16 bit files, which will cause  
> far fewer problems, even
> though the file size is larger, and save you a lot of time?

Because I don't believe that quality 12 JPEG _does_ cause any problems. I've
done A/B comparisons, pixel peeping at 1000%, and I've never been able to
see any meaningful difference between the JPEG and the original uncompressed
data.

I also don't up-size in Photoshop according to the size I want to print.
That is, I don't explicitly interpolate the image up to a larger number of
pixels and then print. I just print, and let the driver map the image pixels
to the dots on the page. I've never had a problem with that. (I mentioned
the moire exception earlier, but that's a very rare occurrence.)

I'm also not convinced that the amount of sharpening I'd want to use would
depend upon the print size (except of course for making really tiny prints
where I have to downsize). I assume that if I print larger, it's so that
people can stand further away.

> Unless storage is a real problem, my own method is still another  
> alternative, and that's
> to retouch and optimize most of my image finals at an even larger  
> size than I think I'll ever
> want to print them. In that way, downsizing for any print size will  
> basically minimize any
> retouching that possibly could show at 100%. It's a little more  
> necessary for me to do that,
> since much of my work consists of photo collages, and sometimes  
> master images
> (with all the layers) can be upwards of two gigabytes.  I've had to  
> get external storage up into the
> terabytes range, and it's expensive, but seems to be the best  
> solution for me.

Well, if you can see a difference by doing that, go right ahead. I'm
skeptical. An image only has so much spatial high frequency content, and
up-sizing doesn't manufacture any higher components (unless you use some
algorithmic resizer, like Genuine Fractals). But perhaps you do more
complicated stuff. I've always been satisfied with the results I get from
editing at the original size.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-07 by E Neilsen

Mark, I think that LR is so much better at printing layouts than PS is true,
but that doesn't mean that LR is any good. It just means that PS is REALLY
bad at layouts and has focused its attention on image manipulation and not
output. 

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Gilvey
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:24 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

 

I went to a Scott Kelby Lightroom Seminar in DC and he says, what 
ever you CAN do in Lightroom, you SHOULD do in Lightroom because it 
does it so much better than PS. He also states that the printing 
module is very powerful in Lightroom and to do similar layouts in PS 
would take forever. I concur.

Mark






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-07 by Mark Savoia

But what about side by side outputs from both, do they look identical  
(color, density, etc.)?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com




On Jan 7, 2008, at 4:11 PM, E Neilsen wrote:

> Mark, I think that LR is so much better at printing layouts than PS  
> is true,
> but that doesn't mean that LR is any good. It just means that PS is  
> REALLY
> bad at layouts and has focused its attention on image manipulation  
> and not
> output.
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-08 by Gary Weaver

One reason i don't use adobe :  )

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 1/7/08 at 3:11 PM E Neilsen wrote:

>Mark, I think that LR is so much better at printing layouts than PS is
>true,
>but that doesn't mean that LR is any good. It just means that PS is REALLY
>bad at layouts and has focused its attention on image manipulation and not
>output. 
>
> 
>
>Eric
>
> 
>
>Eric Neilsen Photo
>
>4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
>
>Dallas, TX 75226
>
>214 827-8301
>
> 
>
>http://ericneilsenphotography.com
>
>SKype ejprinter
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
>Gilvey
>Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:24 AM
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality
>
> 
>
>I went to a Scott Kelby Lightroom Seminar in DC and he says, what 
>ever you CAN do in Lightroom, you SHOULD do in Lightroom because it 
>does it so much better than PS. He also states that the printing 
>module is very powerful in Lightroom and to do similar layouts in PS 
>would take forever. I concur.
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
>and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files
>section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
>�MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
>�OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
>ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
>OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-08 by E Neilsen

Begs the question then what are you using? 

Eric Neilsen Photo
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214 827-8301
 
http://ericneilsenphotography.com
SKype ejprinter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Weaver
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:12 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

One reason i don't use adobe :  )

gar

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-09 by Gary Weaver

Mostly Corel, Irfanview, and RawShooter. My PS is v5.

I don't have a formatting RIP (like the old canon colorpass), so the faux outputer in Corel will have to do. I don't like the company any more than I like Microsoft
I thought taking RawShooter off the market was just protecting their weak new product.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 1/8/08 at 3:20 PM E Neilsen wrote:

>Begs the question then what are you using? 
>
>Eric Neilsen Photo
>4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
>Dallas, TX 75226
>214 827-8301
> 
>http://ericneilsenphotography.com
>SKype ejprinter
> 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary
>Weaver
>Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:12 PM
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality
>
>One reason i don't use adobe :  )
>
>gar
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
>and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files
>section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
>�MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
>�OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
>ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
>OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Am I destroying image quality

2008-01-09 by Tony Sleep

On 09/01/2008 Gary Weaver wrote:
> I thought taking RawShooter off the market was just protecting their 
> weak new product.

Yes, that was annoying. I already have a workflow and a DAM prog that I 
love dearly (iMatch) and no wish to go the LR route.
-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.