Digital BW, The Print

Hi Bill,

I take it you still work for Jon Cone.

Sorry if the information on this list upsets you, but there are, according
to the survey in the Files section, more Piezo users here than MIS users.  I
think they are very able to think for themselves and provide balance to
discussions if those of us who prefer MIS inks get too enthusiastic.

In the question you site about the 7000, the person wanted to print sepia.
Has Cone Editions provided such?  The new MIS VM-Sepia just might get the
7000 owner where he wants to go.  Note that I have published the basic
formulas for the inks so anyone can mix and make them -- including Cone
Editions.

I started out making the variable-tone inks for the Piezo inkset.  What I
received from the Piezo camp was threats that I'd be kicked off the Piezo
list if I mentioned any other inksets there.

So, when you say:

>I see that a message that is headed " Piezo on 7000 - good enough
>for 8x10?"  becomes a suble sales pitch for MIS ...

Well, maybe it turns out that way because the market needs more than what
was out there before.  Perhaps you're so accustomed to a seller-controlled
forum that you forget what freedom of speech feels like.  If you have
something to say, you can say it here without any threats of being kicked
off the list.

> - geez Paul - whats the connection here - ...

I've been very open and clear that MIS does provide me with the materials
that I use to come up with these mixes.  This is normal for beta testers, as
best I can tell.  I do more than beta testing because I want to.  I'm
retired, so I don't work for anyone except myself.

What I say on this list and elsewhere is what I beleive to be true.  I'm
sorry if that has put some heat on Cone Editions, but competition is the way
our system works.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

> Paul,
>
> There are subtle differences between the message headers that
> Bill's original messages have and the ones posted here. I doubt
> very much that Bill would "in the name of Jon Cone" start a flame
> war here.  I have never heard Jon or Bill go low enough to bad
> mouth their competition.
>
> Mike

"Bill's" tone surprised me too!  I've spoken with him personally, and
exchanged a lot of emails, and I would be hard pressed TO believe it was
him.

Hopefully, he'll clear that up himself!

Austin

on 2/3/02 10:16 PM, Michael Kravit wrote:

> Paul,
> 
> There are subtle differences between the message headers that Bill's original
> messages have and the ones posted here. I doubt very much that Bill would "in
> the name of Jon Cone" start a flame war here.  I have never heard Jon or Bill
> go low enough to bad mouth their competition.
> 
> Mike

I think you are right Mike, though Jon Cone made a post on the Archival
Color list that was also rather odd so I'm confused. Could someone who's
friendly with them check in on them? If they are being hacked, or mocked,
I'm sure they'd like to know.

Todd

Dear Paul - 

Actually i got a bunch of stuff emailed to me that was a long compilation of your emails that made me curious.  I get a lot of emails along this line but never came in here to see your "honesty".  

Very good twist I would say.  As I can say that you are doing here as well.  I think there are a lot of lurkers in all lists that don't email much.

Personally I wish you the best of luck.  The state of BW printing needs all the champions it can get - as color will get most of the big guys research dollars.  Maybe Epson will someday come out with a BW inkset and printer, but I bet there are accountants somewhere that would argue the market is too small.  There is plenty of room for alternate processes and inksets.  The more the merrier.  

I would like to see you plug your methodologies and your workflow and  and your trials and tribulations.  That I think is a very healthy thing - but there is this undercurrent that continually is sort of anti-Piezo.  This is what I am getting emails about.  

There is no need for that - your work is respected I assume and will stand on its own.

We aced curves long ago - one of the main things about Piezo was to make it easy to use.  But for a die hard experimenter with time on their hands, a set of curves is the way to go.

I don't have a lot of time to spend in here - so you will have the last word.  Try to keep to the high road.

Best regards, 
Bill Bergh







--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:

> Hi Bill,
> 
> I take it you still work for Jon Cone.
> 
> Sorry if the information on this list upsets you, but there are, according
> to the survey in the Files section, more Piezo users here than MIS users.  I
> think they are very able to think for themselves and provide balance to
> discussions if those of us who prefer MIS inks get too enthusiastic.
> 
> In the question you site about the 7000, the person wanted to print sepia.
> Has Cone Editions provided such?  The new MIS VM-Sepia just might get the
> 7000 owner where he wants to go.  Note that I have published the basic
> formulas for the inks so anyone can mix and make them -- including Cone
> Editions.
> 
> I started out making the variable-tone inks for the Piezo inkset.  What I
> received from the Piezo camp was threats that I'd be kicked off the Piezo
> list if I mentioned any other inksets there.
> 
> So, when you say:
> 
> >I see that a message that is headed " Piezo on 7000 - good enough
> >for 8x10?"  becomes a suble sales pitch for MIS ...
> 
> Well, maybe it turns out that way because the market needs more than what
> was out there before.  Perhaps you're so accustomed to a seller-controlled
> forum that you forget what freedom of speech feels like.  If you have
> something to say, you can say it here without any threats of being kicked
> off the list.
> 
> > - geez Paul - whats the connection here - ...
> 
> I've been very open and clear that MIS does provide me with the materials
> that I use to come up with these mixes.  This is normal for beta testers, as
> best I can tell.  I do more than beta testing because I want to.  I'm
> retired, so I don't work for anyone except myself.
> 
> What I say on this list and elsewhere is what I beleive to be true.  I'm
> sorry if that has put some heat on Cone Editions, but competition is the way
> our system works.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

There are subtle differences between the message headers that Bill's original messages have and the ones posted here. I doubt very much that Bill would "in the name of Jon Cone" start a flame war here.  I have never heard Jon or Bill go low enough to bad mouth their competition. 

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Roark 
  To: DigitalB&WPrint 
  Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:06 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 4 Bill Bergh (was Piezo on 7000 - good enough for 8x10?)


  Hi Bill,

  I take it you still work for Jon Cone.

  Sorry if the information on this list upsets you, but there are, according
  to the survey in the Files section, more Piezo users here than MIS users.  I
  think they are very able to think for themselves and provide balance to
  discussions if those of us who prefer MIS inks get too enthusiastic.

  In the question you site about the 7000, the person wanted to print sepia.
  Has Cone Editions provided such?  The new MIS VM-Sepia just might get the
  7000 owner where he wants to go.  Note that I have published the basic
  formulas for the inks so anyone can mix and make them -- including Cone
  Editions.

  I started out making the variable-tone inks for the Piezo inkset.  What I
  received from the Piezo camp was threats that I'd be kicked off the Piezo
  list if I mentioned any other inksets there.

  So, when you say:

  >I see that a message that is headed " Piezo on 7000 - good enough
  >for 8x10?"  becomes a suble sales pitch for MIS ...

  Well, maybe it turns out that way because the market needs more than what
  was out there before.  Perhaps you're so accustomed to a seller-controlled
  forum that you forget what freedom of speech feels like.  If you have
  something to say, you can say it here without any threats of being kicked
  off the list.

  > - geez Paul - whats the connection here - ...

  I've been very open and clear that MIS does provide me with the materials
  that I use to come up with these mixes.  This is normal for beta testers, as
  best I can tell.  I do more than beta testing because I want to.  I'm
  retired, so I don't work for anyone except myself.

  What I say on this list and elsewhere is what I beleive to be true.  I'm
  sorry if that has put some heat on Cone Editions, but competition is the way
  our system works.

  Paul
  http://www.PaulRoark.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can explain all this unexpected behavior from Bill. 

I just bumped into him in the rest room of The Gold Rush, our 
local St. Louis Rams hangout. He had tears running down his 
face, and it was sad to see how he'd tried to force-fit "InkJetMall" 
where the players' name usually goes, on the back of the St. 
Louis jersey. He'd obviously thrown down a few too many, which 
explains the tone of those earlier posts. They must have been 
written about the start of the fourth quarter, when the Rams were 
still down by 14. Cheap beer can bring out the worst in a man, 
and tomorrow he'll regret it. I'm sure he's face down in his own 
urine by now, after witnessing the final field goal by New 
England.

So you guys take it easy on him. Vermont is not technically in 
New England, so that lets him off the hook. But he was carrying 
around that Paul Roark action figure, which he had all decked 
out in a New England uniform, and he kept muttering "M-I-S" 
under his breath, and sticking these needles into the eyes of the 
Roark action doll, which, even after my recent third-world travels, 
I still found quite shocking and unsettling.

-MTucker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "marktuckerdotcom" <mark@m...> wrote:
> I can explain all this unexpected behavior from Bill. 
> 
>

Ha - good one.

Best regards, 
Bill Bergh