Digital BW, The Print

Hi.

I'm using the r1800 with 3-mk, and have only tried Delta Matt Fibre 
from Permajet yet, and have just been printing for about a month so
I'm very much a beginner... I'm quite happy with it at 13x19 prints,
where pure black has a nice appearance at regular viewing distance,
but I'd like a bit more depth in the blacks, although I don't want 
to go as far as glossy paper, I figure just a slight sheen to the 
surface would give me the desired look to the print..

So, my question is; do you guys have a suggestion to a paper I might
try which has a slight sheen, or blacker blacks than the Permajet 
paper, while staying with the pure eboni inkset? 

I am prepared change to 3-pkn, but I wanted to hear with you all if
there was a possibility to get it right with the pure eboni inks, as 
I figure I'm not far off as it is...


ps: I've not yet gotten the hang of the term D-Max.

thanks.

espen

Hahnemuhle Photorag Satin is the only MK paper that I know of that  
has a "sheen".  Dmax isn't outstanding, but it does look nice for  
some images that don't have large areas of deep black.

Carl Schofield
http://photos.schophoto.com




On Jan 14, 2008, at 4:15 PM, espen.aasheim wrote:

> Hi.
>
> I'm using the r1800 with 3-mk, and have only tried Delta Matt Fibre
> from Permajet yet, and have just been printing for about a month so
> I'm very much a beginner... I'm quite happy with it at 13x19 prints,
> where pure black has a nice appearance at regular viewing distance,
> but I'd like a bit more depth in the blacks, although I don't want
> to go as far as glossy paper, I figure just a slight sheen to the
> surface would give me the desired look to the print..
>
> So, my question is; do you guys have a suggestion to a paper I might
> try which has a slight sheen, or blacker blacks than the Permajet
> paper, while staying with the pure eboni inkset?
>
> I am prepared change to 3-pkn, but I wanted to hear with you all if
> there was a possibility to get it right with the pure eboni inks, as
> I figure I'm not far off as it is...
>
>
> ps: I've not yet gotten the hang of the term D-Max.
>
> thanks.
>
> espen
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Carl, I'll have to have a look at that paper.

Do you think that I could get the blacker blacks while staying with
3mk (perhaps a smoother matte paper), or will the variance between 
other matte papers, and the Permajet paper (Delta Matt Fibre), be so
subtle that I'd need to move to semi-gloss papers to get a noticable
change in the appearance of pure black? Any other paper suggestions
would be great too.

ps: I tend to work with larger areas of black, and the darkest tones
play an important role.


thanks,
espen

> 
> Hahnemuhle Photorag Satin is the only MK paper that I know of that
> has a "sheen". Dmax isn't outstanding, but it does look nice for
> some images that don't have large areas of deep black.

> Carl Schofield
>

Espen,

Technically, you can't achieve as high a dmax on matte papers with MK  
ink as you can with PK on RC or the newer glossy/satin fiber base  
papers.  A dmax of 1.7 to 1.8 seems to be the best I've seen reported  
for matte papers with MK, whereas 2 to 2.7+ is common for many PK  
papers.  If you present framed prints behind glass/plexi then there  
may be less visual difference in the apparent "depth" of the blacks -  
at least with ambient lighting.  Direct spot lighting would probably  
still favor the PK prints.  If you are working a lot with prints  
having large areas of 100% K, then the Hahnemuhle PhotoRag Satin  
would probably not be suitable.  Epson Velvet Fine Art is a matte  
paper that does seem to work well with prints having large black  
areas, at least with Epson MK ink and would be my recommendation for  
the type of prints you seem to want.

Carl Schofield
http://photos.schophoto.com




On Jan 14, 2008, at 5:29 PM, espen.aasheim wrote:

> Thanks Carl, I'll have to have a look at that paper.
>
> Do you think that I could get the blacker blacks while staying with
> 3mk (perhaps a smoother matte paper), or will the variance between
> other matte papers, and the Permajet paper (Delta Matt Fibre), be so
> subtle that I'd need to move to semi-gloss papers to get a noticable
> change in the appearance of pure black? Any other paper suggestions
> would be great too.
>
> ps: I tend to work with larger areas of black, and the darkest tones
> play an important role.
>
>
> thanks,
> espen
>
>>
>> Hahnemuhle Photorag Satin is the only MK paper that I know of that
>> has a "sheen". Dmax isn't outstanding, but it does look nice for
>> some images that don't have large areas of deep black.
>
>> Carl Schofield
>>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Carl,

It looks like Epson Velvet FA will be the next paper to try out then,
I'm really looking forward to it. ..not optimal that there's only A3+
25 packs here in Norway though.

Also,
I see QTR has a 3-mk profile for 'hahnemuhle pearl', my instinct say
that 'pearl' is referring to the surface and that it should be luster,
but you didn't mention it... so I'm a tad confused. Is it the same as
'hahnemuhle fap' and does it in fact work with MK? I presume it doesn't.


espen

I think that is one of Paul Roark's profiles.  I haven't used it, but  
would think that the MK ink will rub off if not sprayed with  
something like PremierArt PrintShield to hold the ink on the paper.

Carl Schofield
http://photos.schophoto.com




On Jan 14, 2008, at 7:09 PM, espen.aasheim wrote:

> Thanks Carl,
>
> It looks like Epson Velvet FA will be the next paper to try out then,
> I'm really looking forward to it. ..not optimal that there's only A3+
> 25 packs here in Norway though.
>
> Also,
> I see QTR has a 3-mk profile for 'hahnemuhle pearl', my instinct say
> that 'pearl' is referring to the surface and that it should be luster,
> but you didn't mention it... so I'm a tad confused. Is it the same as
> 'hahnemuhle fap' and does it in fact work with MK? I presume it  
> doesn't.
>
>
> espen
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carl wrote:

> ...think that the MK ink will rub off if not sprayed with  
> something like PremierArt PrintShield to hold the ink on the paper.
> 

Yes, until its sprayed, Eboni rubs off the FB papers.

However, when sprayed with Print Shield, Ilford Gold with the 1800 3-
MK setup makes a very interesting, 100% carbon, neutral tone, glossy 
(satin) print with a dmax of 2.2+.

To see the tonal distribution, which is the most even yet, see 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3-MK-Ilford-Gold.jpg 

For the QTR profiles to print on this paper go to 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1800-Profiles.zip 

The profiles assume Premier Art Print Shield will be applied.  I've 
found 8 light coats does it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

That tonal distribution looks very good.  I tried some 3MK prints  
earlier on Ilford Gold with 30% Glop overlay, but the glop didn't  
help much.  The PS spray treatment seems to work well.

Carl Schofield
http://photos.schophoto.com




On Jan 14, 2008, at 9:19 PM, pr_roark wrote:

> Carl wrote:
>
>> ...think that the MK ink will rub off if not sprayed with
>> something like PremierArt PrintShield to hold the ink on the paper.
>>
>
> Yes, until its sprayed, Eboni rubs off the FB papers.
>
> However, when sprayed with Print Shield, Ilford Gold with the 1800 3-
> MK setup makes a very interesting, 100% carbon, neutral tone, glossy
> (satin) print with a dmax of 2.2+.
>
> To see the tonal distribution, which is the most even yet, see
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3-MK-Ilford-Gold.jpg
>
> For the QTR profiles to print on this paper go to
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1800-Profiles.zip
>
> The profiles assume Premier Art Print Shield will be applied.  I've
> found 8 light coats does it.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines�  
> in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> Also,
> I see QTR has a 3-mk profile for 'hahnemuhle pearl', my instinct say
> that 'pearl' is referring to the surface and that it should be luster,
> but you didn't mention it... so I'm a tad confused. Is it the same as
> 'hahnemuhle fap' and does it in fact work with MK? I presume it 
doesn't.
> 
> 
> espen



'hahnemuhle pearl' is designed to be used with PK.

Scott

So, from what I have been reading , and please correct me if I am wrong, that a luster paper can't be used with the 3MK set up unless it is given a spray afterwards. How about if I replace one of the MK's that is in the PK slot, with the OEM PK ink, can I then use luster papers?
   
  Also, what do I need to do with the 3MK setup if I want to print color on luster paper...can I change the MK to the OEM PK...would that do it. Or does the residual MK ink build so it needs to be flushed out causing ink loss and money loss. 
   
  When I bought the 3MK inks from inksuppy, their informatoin for the R1800 set up with 3MK inks was that one could print color without changing out the 3 black inks..no mention was made of only printing on matte paper, which for me, is unsatisfactory  for color work.  
  thanks for the help folks
  Frank


"The luckiest dogs are those with clipped tails....they're the ones who won't be chasing their own arses."
       
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Frank Jay wrote:

> ... a luster paper can't be used with the 3MK set up unless 
> it is given a spray afterwards.

True.  Some of the new fiber based luster papers claim to be matte 
black compatible, but that is not my experience.

> How about if I replace one of the MK's that is in the PK slot, 
> with the OEM PK ink, can I then use luster papers?

You could print color glossy that way as long as the "gloss" is not 
checked in the driver.  For B&W with the 3-MK profiles and QTR, you'd 
still have a problem on glossy paper.

    
>   Also, what do I need to do with the 3MK setup if I want 
> to print color on luster paper...can I change the MK to 
> the OEM PK...would that do it.

Yes, that should work.  I doubt you'll need any more cleaning of that 
position.  

Be sure to turn off the "gloss" in the driver or replace that Eboni 
cart with gloss optimizer.  There you might need to clean it out a 
bit to get rid of the Eboni that was there.
     
>   When I bought the 3MK inks from inksuppy, their informatoin 
> for the R1800 set up with 3MK inks was that one could print 
> color without changing out the 3 black inks..no mention was 
> made of only printing on matte paper, which for me, is
> unsatisfactory  for color work.  

I'll let them know of the problem.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

hi,beginner question here, how do i load paul's profiles for this 
paper in qtr-in mac format. thanks,bruce-- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> Carl wrote:
> 
> > ...think that the MK ink will rub off if not sprayed with  
> > something like PremierArt PrintShield to hold the ink on the 
paper.
> > 
> 
> Yes, until its sprayed, Eboni rubs off the FB papers.
> 
> However, when sprayed with Print Shield, Ilford Gold with the 1800 
3-
> MK setup makes a very interesting, 100% carbon, neutral tone, 
glossy 

> (satin) print with a dmax of 2.2+.
> 
> To see the tonal distribution, which is the most even yet, see 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/3-MK-Ilford-Gold.jpg 
> 
> For the QTR profiles to print on this paper go to 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1800-Profiles.zip 
> 
> The profiles assume Premier Art Print Shield will be applied.  I've 
> found 8 light coats does it.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

> Paul wrote:
>  
> ... Yes, until its sprayed, Eboni rubs off the FB papers.
> 
> However, when sprayed with Print Shield, Ilford Gold with the 1800 
> 3-MK setup makes a very interesting, 100% carbon, neutral tone, glossy 
> (satin) print with a dmax of 2.2+.
> 
> The profiles assume Premier Art Print Shield will be applied.  I've 
> found 8 light coats does it.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi.

That sounds excellent, Paul.

But could there be a problem with damaging the surface when I roll 
the prints, to ship them in wide cardboard cylinders? 

And, could there be a gain in Dmax with a similar treatment of 8 
coatings on matte paper do you think, or do you expect that'd be a
waste of time and money?


Btw, I'm enjoying the 3mk prints alot Paul, more and more in fact,
lighting and image tonality has a lot of influence to how I percieve
the blacks in the print, and when the prints are good - they are
excellent. 
so, thanks  


espen