Digital BW, The Print

I've gone through all the Z3100 posts and found little actually 
describing the appearance of the GE.  How would you describe the 
appearance in terms of color and gloss level?  Has anyone used this 
with the Harman Gloss FB AI?  Used over the entire surface, does the GE 
raise or lower the gloss as compared to the straight Harman paper in 
unprinted areas?  Compared to other of the gloss papers?  Does it raise 
or lower the gloss of the inks?  Is this a high gloss surface, a satin, 
etc.?

I know this can be a subjective call, but comments would be welcome.

Many thanks,
Walt

Walt -- 
   
  I don't use the Harman paper but I'll give you my experience with other papers using the gloss enhancer on the Z3100.  My preference is for the Moab Photo Luster and Museo Silver Rag papers.  Thus I don't use high gloss papers.  On the luster papers the gloss enhancer I use it to coat the entire paper (not economy mode) and I have seen no evidence of color shifting(metamerism) or bronzing.  The colors are vibrant and lively.  The printer is also very judicious in it's use of gloss enhancer.   
   
  For all of the papers that I have tried since I've owned the printer,my findings are that HP got it right.  The only thing that I would like to see is a better sheet feed mechanism (like the ones that come with the Epson 4800 and 3800). 
  I know you wanted some feedback about the Harman paper but I haven't tried it yet.  I've got some coming in so I'll be trying it soon.  I'll be happy to share my results with the group. 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 18/02/2008 wwodets wrote:
> I've gone through all the Z3100 posts and found little actually
> describing the appearance of the GE. How would you describe the
> appearance in terms of color and gloss level? Has anyone used this
> with the Harman Gloss FB AI? Used over the entire surface, does the GE
> raise or lower the gloss as compared to the straight Harman paper in
> unprinted areas? Compared to other of the gloss papers? Does it raise
> or lower the gloss of the inks? Is this a high gloss surface, a satin,
> etc.?

I have seen Z3100 Harman FB AL gloss prints done using black+gray+GO. 
Overall they are pretty successful. The GO eliminates 80% of the bronzing 
and GD that Vivera black & grey produces on this paper without GO. You 
have to look quite closely to see any trace of bronzing, and these prints 
are the closest I have yet seen to wet darkroom prints.

If anything tone is a little too neutral. Bromides tended to be either 
warm or cold, and the Z3100 samples were just a little sterile for my 
taste. They reminded me of the original Seagull Oriental in Dektol in that 
respect, which I preferred after selenium toning.

Aside from that, there is still a slight residual sense that the image is 
sat on the surface rather than within the emulsion. But they are, as I 
say, very close to FB bromides and I doubt most people would notice.

The GO appears pretty much clear. I don't recall any sense of yellowing, 
but whether that would change with time I don't know. The coating itself 
is very thin and adds a little gloss but without changing the slight 
surface texture. The application did not look completely even, even though 
it was a full rather than economy/selective coating. Without be able to 
pin this down, I remember thinking that the coating looked like a coating 
rather than an integral part of the surface. I was told - by the guy who'd 
been testing - that they had a few issues with adhesion of the GO on 
Harman, but the 2 prints I saw were OK and showed no flaking except at the 
cut edge where it had been trimmed after printing.

Overall highly impressive and very promising. But I think it might work 
even better with one of the Innova papers - Fibaprint White Gloss, 
Warmtone Gloss or Ultra Smooth Gloss White. The surface of the first two 
is slightly less glossy than the Harman and a little more 'textured' with 
the Ultra Smooth down the middle. I've experimented with this latter paper 
(on a B9180) and (aside from an occasional overinking issue) it achieves a 
better Dmax than the Harman. Innova tell me the White Gloss and Warmtone 
Gloss work better with Vivera but I haven't yet tried the samples I have.

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

Harold-

Thanks for the comments, but how does the GE *look* on, for example, 
the Silver Rag?  Does it raise the gloss of the unprinted paper, 
reduce it or not change it?

It is interesting that the Harman Gloss is perceived by many as more 
glossy than the Silver Rag.  As with the Exhibition Fiber, I find the 
K3 *inks* on SR much glossier than on the Harman--the sparkling and 
glitter of the inks takes the surface beyond gloss to something I 
have never seen before.  By comparison, the Harman has a soft sheen 
that is no more disturbing at odd angles than a gelatin print.

I imagine that the HP inks have a very different surface than the K3s.

Thanks,
Walt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Harold Jackson 
<harold@...> wrote:
>
> Walt -- 
>    
>   I don't use the Harman paper but I'll give you my experience with 
other papers using the gloss enhancer on the Z3100.  My preference is 
for the Moab Photo Luster and Museo Silver Rag papers.  Thus I don't 
use high gloss papers.  On the luster papers the gloss enhancer I use 
it to coat the entire paper (not economy mode) and I have seen no 
evidence of color shifting(metamerism) or bronzing.  The colors are 
vibrant and lively.  The printer is also very judicious in it's use 
of gloss enhancer.   
>    
>   For all of the papers that I have tried since I've owned the 
printer,my findings are that HP got it right.  The only thing that I 
would like to see is a better sheet feed mechanism (like the ones 
that come with the Epson 4800 and 3800). 
>   I know you wanted some feedback about the Harman paper but I 
haven't tried it yet.  I've got some coming in so I'll be trying it 
soon.  I'll be happy to share my results with the group. 

> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Tony,

Thanks for the description.  I imagine that the HP inks are looking 
very different on the Harman than the K3 inks (with MIS carbon in the 
yellow position) that I am using.  These produce no bronzing on the 
Harman and only the slightest GD.  So perhaps the GE on the HP is 
correcting a problem that I don't see with the K3 inks, at least on 
this paper. 

The sheet feeding problem on the Z3100 is mentioned often--what is 
it?  I use a 4800 and front loading and find it quite convenient.  

Thanks,
Walt


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Sleep 
<TonySleep@...> wrote:
>
> On 18/02/2008 wwodets wrote:
> > I've gone through all the Z3100 posts and found little actually
> > describing the appearance of the GE. How would you describe the
> > appearance in terms of color and gloss level? Has anyone used this
> > with the Harman Gloss FB AI? Used over the entire surface, does 
the GE
> > raise or lower the gloss as compared to the straight Harman paper 
in
> > unprinted areas? Compared to other of the gloss papers? Does it 
raise
> > or lower the gloss of the inks? Is this a high gloss surface, a 
satin,
> > etc.?
> 
> I have seen Z3100 Harman FB AL gloss prints done using 
black+gray+GO. 
> Overall they are pretty successful. The GO eliminates 80% of the 
bronzing 
> and GD that Vivera black & grey produces on this paper without GO. 
You 
> have to look quite closely to see any trace of bronzing, and these 
prints 
> are the closest I have yet seen to wet darkroom prints.
> 
> If anything tone is a little too neutral. Bromides tended to be 
either 
> warm or cold, and the Z3100 samples were just a little sterile for 
my 
> taste. They reminded me of the original Seagull Oriental in Dektol 
in that 
> respect, which I preferred after selenium toning.
> 
> Aside from that, there is still a slight residual sense that the 
image is 
> sat on the surface rather than within the emulsion. But they are, 
as I 
> say, very close to FB bromides and I doubt most people would notice.
> 
> The GO appears pretty much clear. I don't recall any sense of 
yellowing, 
> but whether that would change with time I don't know. The coating 
itself 
> is very thin and adds a little gloss but without changing the 
slight 
> surface texture. The application did not look completely even, even 
though 
> it was a full rather than economy/selective coating. Without be 
able to 
> pin this down, I remember thinking that the coating looked like a 
coating 
> rather than an integral part of the surface. I was told - by the 
guy who'd 
> been testing - that they had a few issues with adhesion of the GO 
on 
> Harman, but the 2 prints I saw were OK and showed no flaking except 
at the 
> cut edge where it had been trimmed after printing.
> 
> Overall highly impressive and very promising. But I think it might 
work 
> even better with one of the Innova papers - Fibaprint White Gloss, 
> Warmtone Gloss or Ultra Smooth Gloss White. The surface of the 
first two 
> is slightly less glossy than the Harman and a little 
more 'textured' with 
> the Ultra Smooth down the middle. I've experimented with this 
latter paper 
> (on a B9180) and (aside from an occasional overinking issue) it 
achieves a 
> better Dmax than the Harman. Innova tell me the White Gloss and 
Warmtone 
> Gloss work better with Vivera but I haven't yet tried the samples I 
have.

> 
> -- 
> Regards
> 
> Tony Sleep
> http://tonysleep.co.uk
>

On 18/02/2008 wwodets wrote:
> I imagine that the HP inks are looking
> very different on the Harman than the K3 inks (with MIS carbon in the
> yellow position) that I am using. These produce no bronzing on the
> Harman and only the slightest GD. So perhaps the GE on the HP is
> correcting a problem that I don't see with the K3 inks, at least on
> this paper.

Bronzing using Vivera black+gray is significant on all gloss papers I've 
seen when used withut GO. The same issue doesn't arise with composite B&W 
or colour prints at all.

> The sheet feeding problem on the Z3100 is mentioned often--what is
> it? I use a 4800 and front loading and find it quite convenient. 

Allegedly awkward, rear sheet feed that takes some practice and yoga to 
get right. I've no first-hand experience though. The B9180 was all I could 
afford.

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk