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[HELP]Unable to find on mis site the old page: make your own inkset . . .

[HELP]Unable to find on mis site the old page: make your own inkset . . .

2008-03-04 by arcibombolina

On the site inksupply I found months ago a page where you could buy
one gallon (or pint?) bottle of ink (I suppose eboni bk) and base to
create your own inkset, but I can't find it anymore....

By the way, if I want to print both on matte and glossy papers do I need:
- eboni black
- base to diluite and obtain shades of gray
- glop to diluite the balck in one channel to use with glossy papers
- blue toner to neutralize and cool tone the print

Is it right, or do I need photo black also? I mean the shades of gray
are made by eboni or photo or both mixed together?

thx a lot

sab

Re: [HELP]Unable to find on mis site the old page: make your own inkset . . .

2008-03-04 by pr_roark

> On the site inksupply I found months ago a page where you could buy
> one gallon (or pint?) bottle of ink (I suppose eboni bk) and base to
> create your own inkset, but I can't find it anymore....

MIS has a page at http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm that they 
include some information on mixing inksets.  It is not written by me, 
and I disagree with what might be seen as a suggestion to use 
their "UC Base" to dilute PK and perhaps even Eboni.

With respect to glossy inks, I've found the UC base produces terrible 
bronzing.  With respect to Eboni dilution, the UC base produces 
images that band (see 1600 dpi scan at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-
Info/Base-comparison.jpg ) and are warmer than the base I recommend 
for Eboni dilution.  Additionally, the specific gravity of the UC 
base is low, suggesting that it may not hold pigments in suspension 
as well as the others.

 
> By the way, if I want to print both on matte and glossy papers 
> do I need:
> - eboni black

Don't use Eboni for glossy paper.  We're working on a possible 
workflow that will allow this, but in general, stay away from 
diluting Eboni for glossy printing or with currently available 
dilution bases.  Hopefully MIS will have the correct base soon for 
the Eboni-6 inkset, which is a dilution of Eboni, but for matte 
papers only and not to be mixed with other inks.

Start with MIS PK.

> - base to diluite and obtain shades of gray

Use MIS Gloss Optimizer as a base for glossy printing.  It will also 
work for matte paper printing.

> - glop to diluite the balck in one channel to use with glossy papers

Yes, glop and PK are compatible and make good midtone grays for 
glossy or matte paper printing.  You will, of course, need Eboni or 
other MK in the printer for a good dmax on matte paper.

> - blue toner to neutralize and cool tone the print

The blue toner is a mix of cyan and R800 blue or magenta.  If you 
have 2 channels, simply using LC and LM works.  That way you can vary 
the ratio as needed. 

Good luck with the project.

Paul       
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [HELP]Unable to find on mis site the old page: make your own inkset . . .

2008-03-04 by arcibombolina

> MIS has a page at http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm that they 
> include some information on mixing inksets.  It is not written by me, 
> and I disagree with what might be seen as a suggestion to use 
> their "UC Base" to dilute PK and perhaps even Eboni.

Yes, it seems they are talking for you :-O

> With respect to glossy inks, I've found the UC base produces terrible 
> bronzing.  

Interesting, I've tried your ut3d and with glossy paper it has really
less bonzing of what I aspected ( I had tried other solutions for
glossy papers and yes, bronzing was terrible). Is it caused by glop 
used to diluite?

>With respect to Eboni dilution, the UC base produces 
> images that band (see 1600 dpi scan at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-
> Info/Base-comparison.jpg ) and are warmer than the base I recommend 
> for Eboni dilution.  

Yes, banding is really visible, is the base you suggest for ebony
available at inksupply shop?



> Start with MIS PK.

perfect

> > - blue toner to neutralize and cool tone the print
> 
> The blue toner is a mix of cyan and R800 blue or magenta.  If you 
> have 2 channels, simply using LC and LM works.  That way you can vary 
> the ratio as needed. 

I'm going to try something before on epson 2400, but I' m looking for
something that can work also on my epson 7600, so I think I'll use one
channel for ebony five for shades of gray and one toner (may be on
2400 I try the same but with LC and LM to check differences)


> Good luck with the project.

Thx a lot

It's really an honour for me to have the opportunity to talk with you.

(and yes, I'm sorry for my English)

Hope to hear from u again

sab

Re: [HELP]Unable to find on mis site the old page: make your own inkset . . .

2008-03-05 by pr_roark

> > With respect to glossy inks, I've found the UC base 
> > produces terrible bronzing.  
> 
> Interesting, I've tried your ut3d and with glossy paper 
> it has really less bonzing of what I aspected ...
> Is it caused by glop used to diluite?

Yes.  Glop is the base that is used in all MIS UT B&W inks.  It is 
one of the primary reasons for their generally very good performance.

 
> > With respect to Eboni dilution, the UC base produces 
> > images that band (see 1600 dpi scan at
> >   http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Base-comparison.jpg 
> > and are warmer than the base I recommend for Eboni dilution.  
> 
> Yes, banding is really visible, is the base you suggest for ebony
> available at inksupply shop?

Not yet, but I hope they'll be able to get it within the month.  


> 
> > Start with MIS PK.

And dilute with MIS glop.


> perfect

> > - blue toner to neutralize and cool tone the print
> > 
> > The blue toner is a mix of cyan and R800 blue or magenta.  If you 
> > have 2 channels, simply using LC and LM works.  
> > That way you can vary the ratio as needed. 
> 
> ... I' m looking for something that can work also on my 
> epson 7600, so I think I'll use one
> channel for ebony five for shades of gray and one toner 
> (may be on 2400 I try the same but with LC and LM to 
> check differences)

Take a very careful look at the the information at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf 
including the materials at page 4.  The bottom line is that I've 
found MIS blended inks (like carbon with blue toner mixed in) 
separate in large format printers.  So, unless you use them all the 
time (as in a service bureau), I think you'll be much happier using 
inks that have only a single pigment type in each in chamber. 

By the way, I did experiments to determine whether there was a good 
solution to the separation.  I found I could control 
which "direction" the ink would drift by the composition of the 
dilution base mix.  So, I could control this for a 2-pigment mix.  
When the third pigment is added, I suspect the ink drift becomes 
uncontrollable.  I gave up on the attempt and instead stopped making 
and recommending any blended inkset for any large format printer.  
Note the this problem does not affect desktop pritners.

Hope this helps.

Paul      
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [HELP]Unable to find on mis site the old page: make your own inkset . . .

2008-03-05 by arcibombolina

> Take a very careful look at the the information at 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf 
> including the materials at page 4.  The bottom line is that I've 
> found MIS blended inks (like carbon with blue toner mixed in) 
> separate in large format printers.  So, unless you use them all the 
> time (as in a service bureau), I think you'll be much happier using 
> inks that have only a single pigment type in each in chamber. 

I've read and understood, so I'm just going to choose 5K+ and LLC and
LLM, or 6k+ and blue.
last quetion, slightly OT (perhaps)

"I use Gray Gamma 2.2 for my working space. So that prints edited in this
working space match the prints through IJC, I use an adjustment layer that
coordinates the view on the monitor with the IJC output. The Photoshop
curve
for this layer is in the above files along with the profiles."

I used this "trick" and it works perfectly with files that are totally
postproduced or shooted by me, but if I get a file from someonelse
it's hard to match what he saw in his monitor (good calibrated
monitor, as mine): I suppose cause the default grayspace is dotgain
15% and not graygamma 2.2, but anyway how can I tell them to operate
to give me a correct file (ie tell them to set default space to gg22),
or am I suppose to work first with dotgain15% and reach the same
visual appearence moving then to graygamma 2.2?


> Hope this helps.

totally!

thx again

sab

Re: [HELP]Unable to find on mis site the old page: make your own inkset . . .

2008-03-05 by pr_roark

> > Take a very careful look at the the information at 
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf 
> > including the materials at page 4.  ...

 
> 
> ... understood, so I'm just going to choose 5K+ and LLC and
> LLM,

The LLC is much more important than an LLM.  LC, particularly in my 
old 7500, was by far the limiting factor in smoothness.  The light 
light cyan is also an easy mix with MIS LC and glop at 1:1.  

LM, however, is not very visible -- that is, does not cause much 
dottiness.  If you stay with full strength LM, it'll allow you to use 
Epson OEM LM, which I think may be worth doing.  My fade tests showed 
it to be significantly more lightfast than the MIS version.

> or 6k+ and blue.

There is no single blue ink that works well.  The R800 blue is like 
grape juice in color -- way too magenta to offset the yellowness of 
the carbon.  (Danial Smith's Indanthrone blue is the only pigment 
I've found that works as a single-pigment blue ink, but it needs a 
pigment company to process it correctly.)


> last quetion, slightly OT (perhaps)
> 
> "I use Gray Gamma 2.2 for my working space. So that prints 
> edited in this working space match the prints through IJC, 
> I use an adjustment layer that coordinates the view on the
> monitor with the IJC output. The Photoshop curve
> for this layer is in the above files along with the profiles."

> I used this "trick" and it works perfectly with files that 
> are totally postproduced or shooted by me, but if I get a 
> file from someonelse it's hard to match what he saw in his 
> monitor (good calibrated monitor, as mine): I suppose cause
> the default grayspace is dotgain 15% and not graygamma 2.2,
> but anyway how can I tell them to operate
> to give me a correct file (ie tell them to set default 
> space to gg22), or am I suppose to work first with dotgain
> 15% and reach the same visual appearence moving then to 
> graygamma 2.2?

Note that there is nothing magical about Gray Gamma 2.2.  I use it 
because it seems to be the usual default with the files that I work 
with.  If I printed only through rips with linear outputs like QTR or 
IJC, I'd probably just use the QTR gray matte ICC in soft proofing.  
In fact, I do use that when I work with files that did not come in as 
GG 2.2 files.

I think there are a number of ways to get a file with a different 
working space to the view that you need for printing.  The first 
thing, of course, would be to make sure the file is in high bit depth 
so that switching things around does not lose significant information.

Assuming you can't convince everyone to use the same space, you could 
also come up with an adjustment curve to switch, or you could convert 
spaces.  You might keep one copy in dot gain 15% as a reference and 
work up another copy in the space you prefer or use QTR's matte gray 
ICC for soft proofing the working copy.  To be sure you know what the 
person who sent you the file saw, I'd be sure to keep that original 
file as a reference.

Paul

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