Digital BW, The Print

As I posted several weeks ago here-
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/90802
I am interested in getting community feedback about this process and
am offering quick automated samples pretty much at cost so that as
many people as possible can afford them and provide commentary.
There is a feedback link provided on that page as well, I hope people
will use it to provide as much opinion as possible. Additionally, I
hope people will share their observations on this list as well, others
on the list may be interested in what purchasers think of the process.
HERE is the purchase page link-

http://www.custom-digital.com/samples/index.html

This list continues to be the core of dedicated black and white
photography digital printers, and I appreciate the willingness of the
members to indulge me in this exercise.

Tyler

http://www.custom-digital.com/samples/index.html

Tyler,

Are you willing to post the image (US letter 360 dpi) somewhere so we can
download and print a version locally using Epson ABW PK to see how it
compares. I'd also be very willing to send you a ABW PK print back so you
can compare as well.

Txs,

Mike


On 03/04/2008, Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
>
>   As I posted several weeks ago here-
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/90802
> I am interested in getting community feedback about this process and
> am offering quick automated samples pretty much at cost so that as
> many people as possible can afford them and provide commentary.
> There is a feedback link provided on that page as well, I hope people
> will use it to provide as much opinion as possible. Additionally, I
> hope people will share their observations on this list as well, others
> on the list may be interested in what purchasers think of the process.
> HERE is the purchase page link-
>
> http://www.custom-digital.com/samples/index.html
>
> This list continues to be the core of dedicated black and white
> photography digital printers, and I appreciate the willingness of the
> members to indulge me in this exercise.
>
> Tyler
>
> http://www.custom-digital.com/samples/index.html
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.custom-digital.com/info/B05T8487finalprinterMONO.tif.zip

Have a UCK3 setup here also, but thanks for the offer.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
<drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> Tyler,
> 
> Are you willing to post the image (US letter 360 dpi) somewhere so
we can
> download and print a version locally using Epson ABW PK to see how it
> compares. I'd also be very willing to send you a ABW PK print back
so you
> can compare as well.
> 
> Txs,
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> On 03/04/2008, Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
> >
> >   As I posted several weeks ago here-
> >
> >
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/90802

> > I am interested in getting community feedback about this process and
> > am offering quick automated samples pretty much at cost so that as
> > many people as possible can afford them and provide commentary.
> > There is a feedback link provided on that page as well, I hope people
> > will use it to provide as much opinion as possible. Additionally, I
> > hope people will share their observations on this list as well, others
> > on the list may be interested in what purchasers think of the process.
> > HERE is the purchase page link-
> >
> > http://www.custom-digital.com/samples/index.html
> >
> > This list continues to be the core of dedicated black and white
> > photography digital printers, and I appreciate the willingness of the
> > members to indulge me in this exercise.
> >
> > Tyler
> >
> > http://www.custom-digital.com/samples/index.html
> >
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thank you for making this available, Tyler.  I look forward to seeing the
prints.

 

George C. Pappas

george@...

(703) 268-3196

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:11 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] K7 Gloss Order Link

 

As I posted several weeks ago here-
http://tech.
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/908
02> groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/90802
I am interested in getting community feedback about this process and
am offering quick automated samples pretty much at cost so that as
many people as possible can afford them and provide commentary.
There is a feedback link provided on that page as well, I hope people
will use it to provide as much opinion as possible. Additionally, I
hope people will share their observations on this list as well, others
on the list may be interested in what purchasers think of the process.
HERE is the purchase page link-

http://www.custom- <http://www.custom-digital.com/samples/index.html>
digital.com/samples/index.html

This list continues to be the core of dedicated black and white
photography digital printers, and I appreciate the willingness of the
members to indulge me in this exercise.

Tyler

http://www.custom- <http://www.custom-digital.com/samples/index.html>
digital.com/samples/index.html

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you Tyler, I received my two prints today!

Both look excellent and very professional. I was wondering if I had 
the guts to run GLOP full bleed (messing up my 7600), or whether to 
use margins, as you did.  The margins are very subtle and not 
intrusive. Probably a good choice ;>)

I am 100% committed to moving to a gloss B&W ink set for the new 
fiber papers. I print 99%+ of my work on photo papers. I proof on 
Premium Semi-Matte, Premium Luster, and Premium Semi-Gloss, all in 
24" rolls. I will probably commit to the Epson Exhibition Fiber 
(Innova version in rolls) and Harman Glossy Ai as my two "stock" 
premium photo papers.

I also printed a version of the image that you posted on Moab Entrada 
Bright White using the Carbon 6 inks that I have installed in my 
7600.  I love the look of that image.  And, despite my strong 
preference for photo/glossy papers, I prefer this specific image on 
the Entrada.

One thing that is apparent is that my blacks are quite blocked up 
with very little detail compared to the prints that you sent. I will 
try a curve to open them up a bit so that I am comparing apples-to-
apples on the images. I quite *like* that deep black with very little 
detail in the out-of-focus background for this image, but it makes 
the comparison very hard ....

I may also try making additional B&W prints on the Exhibition Fiber 
and a couple of other papers using an Epson K3 ink set - and blocking 
up the shadows a bit - to compare more samples to the Entrada and the 
glossy that you provided.  

As I said, I am 100% sure I am going to install a dedicated, glossy 
B&W ink set. I am going to mix up a sample glossy B&W set for myself 
using a black dye ink I have also, I'll compare that to the prints 
that you sent as an extra data point.  I am still debating between 
GLOP and spraying - I hate to mess up my poor printer .... ;>)

I don't know if any of those comments are useful, but ... above all, 
Thank you very much for taking on the huge task and sharing your 
research with the folks here!  I really appreciate receiving the 
prints! 

I look forward to hearing others comments here too.  

Best,
Michael

I received Tyler's two prints yesterday. Both are very beautiful, and 
Tyler's doing all of us a great service by providing these at such a low 
cost!

My understanding is that one of the prints is Ilford Gold Silk Fiber 
[IG] paper, and the other is Ultrasmooth.[U].

The IG print is warmer, and the U print has a whiter base.  The IG print 
is slightly lighter.

With this image, I prefer the image tone of the U and the luminance of 
the IG in diffuse daylight. With tungsten lighting the IG tone becomes 
excessively warm with this image for my tastes.

Both are essentially gloss-differential and bronzing free.

On both papers, there are specks of glop on the borders, and there are 
occasional irregularities on the images, such as small speck sized areas 
without gloss and small particles in the finish.  These are very minor.  
They wouldn't be noticeable when framed.

The U has some microbanding running parallel to the long edge of the 
paper. This is especially visible in even-toned out-of-focus areas.  It 
would be a bit distracting on close examination of a framed image.  The 
IG print doesn't have this.

I also made a print of the image using an Epson R2400, InkRepublic CIS, 
MIS K4 color inks, a PrintFixPro profile with extended grays, and the 
Epson driver, printing the image as a "color" image.

The K4 print is more neutral.  (With this image I prefer one slightly 
warm. One of the advantages of the "color" workflow, though, is that 
it's easy to adjust image tone.) It's also darker with less "open" 
shadows.  Both of Tyler's prints have a little more "depth", although I 
think this is due to the their being lighter in the mid-tones and 
shadows.  The K4 print does have gloss differential and bronzing, but 
only when viewed in an unusual way. These would be visible with framed 
images normally displayed. The K4 print has microbanding that's parallel 
to the images short edge.

My conclusions are: 1. I have to fix that banding.  2. Tyler's process 
produces beautiful prints.  3. I don't see enough advantages with k7 
gloss_for my uses_ over my "color" workflow for me to switch.

-Peter

a couple of quick comments-

I won't be able to reply to all of the posts obviously, but these
first two are exactly the kind of input that helps me, honest
reactions to the process.
Some of you will notice little things like the mentioned specs...
these kinds of things are dealt with when doing more careful work, for
this project I had to go very fast. The Innova proved difficult in
that results varied considerably depending on how much time they sat
between passes, the Ilford did not have that complication. Constant
surprises.
Obviously there would be small issues to perfect, and your opinions
help me determine whether or not to address them, or something else
more rewarding...
Thanks all, 50 orders went out so far, and I'm again waiting for
paper. The two I picked seem to be very scarce on the planet these
days. Of course!
I was a bit overwhelmed at the interest, but all orders currently in
will be filled, probably within a week.
Thanks again, I'll again step aside for now.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter De Smidt <pdesmidt@...> 
wrote:
>
>............ one of the prints is Ilford Gold Silk Fiber > [IG] paper, and the other is 
Ultrasmooth.[U].
> 
> The IG print is warmer, and the U print has a whiter base.  The IG print 
> is slightly lighter.
> 
> With this image, I prefer the image tone of The U print. With tungsten lighting the IG 
tone becomes  excessively warm with this image for my tastes.
> 
> Both are essentially gloss-differential and bronzing free.

I agree with the above comments.

I made a comparison print using an Epson R2400, Epson K3 inks, with IJC/OPM RIP on my 
Crane Silver Rag (CSR) using Crane Silver Rag.  I wanted to see to compare the "U" print 
against my favorite paper, to see if I would be interesting in switching to Tyler's paper and 
process.

The CSR print has a very slight green "tone," which I did not notice until I compared it to 
the "U" print.  The "U" print is slightly lighter in the mid grey tones (using the curves tools, 
with blk = 100%) at about 65% range.  The "U" print is more appealing to me, since it is 
cooler and the whites look better.  

Tyler, please keep in mind that I am not a professional and I only print for myself.

Martin

Don't know what comments on Tyler's prints might be useful, but  a few things struck me 
about them.

1) The subtle highlights on the rim of the abalone shell are beautifully rendered in both 
prints (seems to me even better on the IGSF than the US); and, of course, no gloss 
differential.
2) The IGSF print is sharper than the U print (e.g., the weathered wood to the left of the shell 
rim). This may be due to the slightly higher contrast of the IGSF print--or is this a paper 
characteristic (?). 
3) Some roughness is apparent in the mid-tones of the U print (e.g., upper right) that isn't 
apparent in the IGSF print.
5) The glossiness of the coated surface of the U seems quite similar to the Velour Black I 
printed with years ago. The IGSF surface is just a bit less glossy and also fine. 
4) As a matter of personal preference, the warmer tones of the IGSF are appealing in diffuse 
window light and under a 5000 K Ott light; don't know about tungsten.

Thank you, Tyler, for making these prints available. There's no substitute for in-hand 
evaluation.

Hi Tyler. Your prints arrived in FL today. Take what you may from my
untutored observations. I have not seen prints on either of these
papers until now.

1st: Were I looking for a printhouse to make prints closely
approximating the darkroom look, either of these would do for me.
The selection of tone would likely be made based on a particular image
and what I thought would best display.

2nd: I really like the warmer of the two. It reminds me greatly of one
of the old AGFA papers I liked back in the sixty's in it's color. Your
print also gave superb delineation to what is a very busy background
to your primary subject matter. It's overall appearance, to me, is of
what in the old days I would have called a very long scale paper with
excellent punch. It's gloss is also not obtrusive and just slightly
less than the cooler print.

On balance, you will have to determine if there is enough call for a
warmer air gloss look to answer your primary question about dedicating
a printer to the inkset. If you have the machine and room to spare, it
would certainly put another terrific tool at your disposal.

Thanks for making your offer. I hope you derive as much benefit from
it as we who received the prints have. I think I'll keep my set as
examples for comparison so I might say occasionally if I've done well
" Now THIS is a Tyler type print!" and smile.

Best regards
Duane





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@...> wrote:

>
> Additionally, I
> hope people will share their observations on this list as well, others
> on the list may be interested in what purchasers think of the process.

> Tyler
>

Tyler,

Txs for the prints, arrived safely to UK.
I was interested in;

1) evaluating the selenium K7 print colour and tonality as something that I
might want to embrace.

Conclusion I love both the colour and tonality, especially on IGFS.
Definitely want to be able to get that in my images.

2) evaluating how close I could emulate the K7 selenium look on my 7880
using ABW (using QTR ICC), both to decide if I should invest in a K7 set up,
but also to evaluate if my workflow could produce a comparable print.

Tonality was spot on with the first print, and I have done nothing to
manipulate the image directly.
After about 10 test prints on IGFS, tweaking the ABW "colour wheel", I was
able to create a print that to my eye is very nearly identical in colour as
well. I have compared the images inch by inch and if I was to be hyper
critical I might say that the K7 print might be slightly smoother in the
very bright highlights. But that also might be a side effect of the GLOP
coat which I don't have a setup to apply today.

In fact I felt that one of the test prints was actually a better print of
the image than the K7. In particular because it had slightly better
definition of the small shells in the center of the image. But that's just
personal choice.

Conclusion so far, my profiled ABW setup is more than capable of replicating
the K7 look close enough that I will not be investing in a K7 set up.
Clearly one has other factors here like cost of inks, volume etc. But for me
doing just my own personal work, I prefer the flexibility of getting B&W and
colour out of one printer, if I don't have to compromise on quality. There
is also the issue of permanence, I am confident that either solution is good
for 50 years and that's more than long enough for me.

One additional point, in my experience of moving from a 4800 to 7880, the
quality of PK ABW printing on the 7880 is much better. I am not sure my
conclusions would have been the same using the 4800 PK ABW.

3) Effectiveness of GLOP coat.

Very effective. Gets rid of that irritating gloss differential. Possibly
smooths the highlights a little as well -TBD. I want this capability. Think
I'll set my old 4800 up as a 2nd pass glop machine asap using QTR (along
side being an MK ABW printer).

Tyler txs for much for sharing these prints with us. It's really helped me
move my printing forward.
Would love to know more about how you apply your Glop. One channel? What ink
limit?
Do you pause between passes? Why did the glop spash into the margins?

Also you mentioned in another email that the Ultrasmooth print quality
varied with changes in the speed of printing (pause between passes). In what
way does this show in the print? I have never had time to explore this
aspect of printing myself.

Txs again.

Mike

PS: My 7880 ABW setup for anyone wanting to replicate my results is, print
QTR Create ICC profiles with setting normal, CD+20 and colour wheel 0,0.
 Then print using that profile but set colour wheel to 10H, 23V (some
tonality very slightly yellower) or 12H, 20V (some tonality very slightly
redder). Once you have the colour settings that work you can create another
profile with those settings that can be used to softproof the colour as
well.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
<drmrking@...> wrote:
...
...
> Would love to know more about how you apply your Glop. One channel? 

yes.

>What ink
> limit?

In this case, on these papers, 65%. It's very dependent on other
factors, like ink limits and GO amount in the first pass, and the
paper itself.

> Do you pause between passes? Why did the glop spash into the margins?

I assume you mean head passes, not actual total print passes through
the printer (there are two). No, no head pause. Another option worth
pursuing. The prints were put through the printer twice. Once with the
image forming inks and a GO spot channel, the second time with GO only
as above.
The second pass through of course may not perfectly sit over the
image, so it's best to make a larger GO "image" to make sure it more
than covers. Some might do the entire sheet, in this case I wanted it
plain as day to people what the second pass is doing.
It's not splash, it was printed that way, if that's what you mean.
 
> Also you mentioned in another email that the Ultrasmooth print quality
> varied with changes in the speed of printing (pause between passes).

No, it varied by how long the prints sat before being put back through
the printer for the GO only pass.

> In what
> way does this show in the print?

If the prints sat too long, and presumably dried and hardened more,
the second pass created a sort of relief in darker tones when held to
reflected light, and the ability to "solve" gloss differential was
lessened. Again,, this only happened with that paper.

Thanks for all your comments, very  helpful.
Tyler

Tyler txs for the reply.

>>Why did the glop spash into the margins?
>It's not splash, it was printed that way, if that's what you mean.

Ok understood that you printed GLOP bigger than the image.
But if you look carefully at the IGFS margins beyond the GLOP you'll see
that they are a bit blotchy with what I presume is GLOP splash or from Glop
on your rollers. Angled into the light it looks like a slight mould attack
might look. Its not obvious or irritating, but that's what I was referring
to. My guess is its GLOP off the rollers.

Mike




On 12/04/2008, Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
>
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Michael King"
> <drmrking@...> wrote:
> ...
> ...
> > Would love to know more about how you apply your Glop. One channel?
>
> yes.
>
> >What ink
> > limit?
>
> In this case, on these papers, 65%. It's very dependent on other
> factors, like ink limits and GO amount in the first pass, and the
> paper itself.
>
> > Do you pause between passes? Why did the glop spash into the margins?
>
> I assume you mean head passes, not actual total print passes through
> the printer (there are two). No, no head pause. Another option worth
> pursuing. The prints were put through the printer twice. Once with the
> image forming inks and a GO spot channel, the second time with GO only
> as above.
> The second pass through of course may not perfectly sit over the
> image, so it's best to make a larger GO "image" to make sure it more
> than covers. Some might do the entire sheet, in this case I wanted it
> plain as day to people what the second pass is doing.
> It's not splash, it was printed that way, if that's what you mean.
>
> > Also you mentioned in another email that the Ultrasmooth print quality
> > varied with changes in the speed of printing (pause between passes).
>
> No, it varied by how long the prints sat before being put back through
> the printer for the GO only pass.
>
> > In what
> > way does this show in the print?
>
> If the prints sat too long, and presumably dried and hardened more,
> the second pass created a sort of relief in darker tones when held to
> reflected light, and the ability to "solve" gloss differential was
> lessened. Again,, this only happened with that paper.
>
> Thanks for all your comments, very helpful.
> Tyler
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> "Michael King" <drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> But if you look carefully at the IGFS margins
> beyond the GLOP you'll see that they are a bit
> blotchy with what I presume is GLOP splash or
> from Glop on your rollers. Angled into the light

Yes, I have seen that on the prints I received also. 

The simple solution would be to go to a full-bleed GLOP. Not sure what 
that will do to the printer though, in terms of cleaning and 
contamination.

I am still pondering the prints. Ill post an additional reply 
eventually.  I want to wait until I have something more to add than 
just what my personal preferences are (warmer, cooler, etc.)

Best,
Michael

I thought Tyler put a special e-mail link on his website (specifically  
the page about ordering a sample print) to reply to, for him to gather  
feedback and I assume post results later? I did so, as to not post  
publicly to this e-group. Isn't that what we were suppose to do? I see  
lots of posts about reviews of the sample prints received. Did I miss  
something in his instructions?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Apr 13, 2008, at 4:22 PM, Michael T. Murphy wrote:

>> "Michael King" <drmrking@...> wrote:
>>
>> But if you look carefully at the IGFS margins
>> beyond the GLOP you'll see that they are a bit
>> blotchy with what I presume is GLOP splash or
>> from Glop on your rollers. Angled into the light
>
> Yes, I have seen that on the prints I received also.
>
> The simple solution would be to go to a full-bleed GLOP. Not sure what
> that will do to the printer though, in terms of cleaning and
> contamination.
>
> I am still pondering the prints. Ill post an additional reply
> eventually.  I want to wait until I have something more to add than
> just what my personal preferences are (warmer, cooler, etc.)
>
> Best,
> Michael
>

The Z-3100 has a setting on the driver that allows you lay down a full
bleed or a selective glop coating, just on the image area - econo
option) below max white. Max white gets left alone on the selection
option. This really guts down the amount used and is a great way to
conserve on the fluid. Unless you have large areas of blown out white
in the file, you can't see where the glop begins. In either case you
don't see the glop as a seperate surface.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T.
Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote:

>
> > "Michael King" <drmrking@> wrote:
> >
> > But if you look carefully at the IGFS margins
> > beyond the GLOP you'll see that they are a bit
> > blotchy with what I presume is GLOP splash or
> > from Glop on your rollers. Angled into the light
> 
> Yes, I have seen that on the prints I received also. 
> 
> The simple solution would be to go to a full-bleed GLOP. Not sure what 
> that will do to the printer though, in terms of cleaning and 
> contamination.
> 
> I am still pondering the prints. Ill post an additional reply 
> eventually.  I want to wait until I have something more to add than 
> just what my personal preferences are (warmer, cooler, etc.)
> 
> Best,
> Michael
>

either of those options are possible with this as well, in the first pass, by setting up the 
spot channel as wished, and additional canvas size if you want a full bleed. I don't know if 
StudioPrint will let me print a full bleed, never had need for it before. If not I suppose a 
slight trim.
Obvioulsy not as effortless as a printer with built in GO, but as a single pass system the 
GO is not seen as a separate surface with this either.

There are a number of ways to deal with this second pass that people are commenting on, 
I just wanted to make no attempt to disguise it with these samples.

It's good to know what people notice, to know what to address down the line. Mostly I'm 
interested in honest opinions about the print "look".

Clearly the HP is a major player in the evolution of all of this.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
> The Z-3100 has a setting on the driver that allows you lay down a full
> bleed or a selective glop coating, just on the image area - econo
> option) below max white. Max white gets left alone on the selection
> option. This really guts down the amount used and is a great way to
> conserve on the fluid. Unless you have large areas of blown out white
> in the file, you can't see where the glop begins. In either case you
> don't see the glop as a seperate surface.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T.
> Murphy" <uriel_bear@> wrote:
> >
> > > "Michael King" <drmrking@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But if you look carefully at the IGFS margins
> > > beyond the GLOP you'll see that they are a bit
> > > blotchy with what I presume is GLOP splash or
> > > from Glop on your rollers. Angled into the light
> > 
> > Yes, I have seen that on the prints I received also. 
> > 
> > The simple solution would be to go to a full-bleed GLOP. Not sure what 
> > that will do to the printer though, in terms of cleaning and 
> > contamination.
> > 
> > I am still pondering the prints. Ill post an additional reply 
> > eventually.  I want to wait until I have something more to add than 
> > just what my personal preferences are (warmer, cooler, etc.)
> > 
> > Best,
> > Michael
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
<drmrking@...> wrote:
>
>... if you look carefully at the IGFS margins beyond the GLOP you'll see
> that they are a bit blotchy with what I presume is GLOP splash or
from Glop
> on your rollers...


by the way, I can't get this to happen or see it here in any tests. I
just got more paper in so have been looking for it.

It must be something that happened on one batch, or something to do
with my packaging... I just don't know.
Tyler