Digital BW, The Print

lyonscox wrote:

>  SNIP from Larry,
>
> > a case for using ONE film, ONE developer, ONE set of lenses, for
> ones entire career as a black and white photographer. i read that
> brett weston was so familiar with his materials and had such an
> ability to gage light that he did not use an exposure meter and never
> made a test print in the dark room.>
>
> (have my doubts about the test print thing but won't speak as an
> expert there.  You BECOME that familiar with a product...which does
> support the statement by Larry and Harvey)
>
> Edward was more renown than Bret for knowing light AND doing things
> simply to show people were wrong about their conventions of light and
> photography.  Also BOTH of them used a NUMBER of Cameras and lens
> combinations.  Perhaps a better one lens/camera user example is of
> course Cartier-Bresson, or even Atget.
>
>
> .>of course in our situation technology is racing ahead and we are on
> the cutting edge. things change fast and
> we have to keep up>
>
> People don't always realize that the Weston's were also on the
> Cutting edge, since silver based paper as we commonly know it was
> introduced in the 20's (I may be a little off) and an influence for a
> mid-style/career shift for Edward to use the 'new' paper.
>
> Sincerely (& not trying to be a snoot)
> Cleavis

And to add to that, the zone system was invented by Ansel (and Edward Weston?)
to avoid wasting film and paper through trial and error (aka: guessing)....So we
are right back to where we started.  ;-)


Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 2/7/02 9:01 PM, SKID Photography wrote:

> And to add to that, the zone system was invented by Ansel (and Edward
Weston?)...


I know Minor White was one of the zone pioneers too, and perhaps the best
photographer of the group (IMHO).

Todd

Todd Flashner wrote:

>  on 2/7/02 9:01 PM, SKID Photography wrote:
>
> > And to add to that, the zone system was invented by Ansel (and Edward
> Weston?)...
>
>
> I know Minor White was one of the zone pioneers too, and perhaps the best
> photographer of the group (IMHO).
>
> Todd
>

Sorry Todd....
Yes great photographer and yes used the Zone system to the Nth degree, but of a
different era and age than Ansel and Edward.  I do not believe he was part of
it's invention, too young. ;-)


Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>> And to add to that, the zone system was invented by Ansel (and Edward
>> Weston?)...
>> 
>> 
>> I know Minor White was one of the zone pioneers too, and perhaps the best
>> photographer of the group (IMHO).
>> 
>> Todd
>> 
> 
> Sorry Todd....
> Yes great photographer and yes used the Zone system to the Nth degree, but of
> a
> different era and age than Ansel and Edward.  I do not believe he was part of
> it's invention, too young. ;-)


<http://www-tech.mit.edu/V105/N57/nudewh.57a.html>

Excerpted from the link above (emphasis mine):

Dreams with a memory- Minor White remembered

Minor White was one of the most influential, inscrutable, and
interesting photographers of all.

*With Ansel Adams he developed the Zone System*, an engineering methodology
which (in the primitive days of guesswork photography) allowed a
photographer precise control over the appearance of his image.

Todd

>>> And to add to that, the zone system was invented by Ansel (and Edward
>> Weston?)...
>> 
>> 
>> I know Minor White was one of the zone pioneers too, and perhaps the best
>> photographer of the group (IMHO).
>> 
>> Todd
>> 
> 
> Sorry Todd....
> Yes great photographer and yes used the Zone system to the Nth degree, but of
> a
> different era and age than Ansel and Edward.  I do not believe he was part of
> it's invention, too young. ;-)
> 
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider

Harvey, 

Just did a bit more quickie research. White was working as Adams' assistant
at the time they developed the zone system together. However, White (Born
1908) was only 6 years younger than Adams (born 1902).

Todd

Todd Flashner wrote:

>
> >>> And to add to that, the zone system was invented by Ansel (and Edward
> >> Weston?)...
> >>
> >>
> >> I know Minor White was one of the zone pioneers too, and perhaps the best
> >> photographer of the group (IMHO).
> >>
> >> Todd
> >>
> >
> > Sorry Todd....
> > Yes great photographer and yes used the Zone system to the Nth degree, but
> of
> > a
> > different era and age than Ansel and Edward.  I do not believe he was part
> of
> > it's invention, too young. ;-)
>
>
> <http://www-tech.mit.edu/V105/N57/nudewh.57a.html>
>
> Excerpted from the link above (emphasis mine):
>
> Dreams with a memory- Minor White remembered
>
> Minor White was one of the most influential, inscrutable, and
> interesting photographers of all.
>
> *With Ansel Adams he developed the Zone System*, an engineering methodology
> which (in the primitive days of guesswork photography) allowed a
> photographer precise control over the appearance of his image.
>
> Todd

Todd,
I fear that the above is a bit of revisionism.  While I agree that White
probably helped perfect the Zone System, the below from Ansel's autobiography,
off a website on the 'simplified Zone System'.....
******************
The history of the zone system, or was Ansel Adams the sole inventor? Here's
what Adams says in his Autobiography. The setting is the Art Center School, Los
Angeles, 1940. "With the
cooperation of Fred Archer, instructor in photographic portraiture, I set out to
plan a way by which the students would learn the 'scales and chords' to achieve
technical command of the medium. It took several weeks in refinement before I
could teach it to the students. I called my codification of practical
sensitometry the Zone System."
*****************

I still believe Ansel 'invented' the Zone System, I guess I was wrong about
Weston, but I thought I remember something in the history about Weston and Adams
perfecting it...ah well..

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 2/8/02 12:57 AM, SKID Photography wrote:

> Todd Flashner wrote:
> 
>> 
>>>>> And to add to that, the zone system was invented by Ansel (and Edward
>>>> Weston?)...
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I know Minor White was one of the zone pioneers too, and perhaps the best
>>>> photographer of the group (IMHO).
>>>> 
>>>> Todd
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sorry Todd....
>>> Yes great photographer and yes used the Zone system to the Nth degree, but
>> of
>>> a
>>> different era and age than Ansel and Edward.  I do not believe he was part
>> of
>>> it's invention, too young. ;-)
>> 
>> 
>> <http://www-tech.mit.edu/V105/N57/nudewh.57a.html>
>> 
>> Excerpted from the link above (emphasis mine):
>> 
>> Dreams with a memory- Minor White remembered
>> 
>> Minor White was one of the most influential, inscrutable, and
>> interesting photographers of all.
>> 
>> *With Ansel Adams he developed the Zone System*, an engineering methodology
>> which (in the primitive days of guesswork photography) allowed a
>> photographer precise control over the appearance of his image.
>> 
>> Todd
> 
> Todd,
> I fear that the above is a bit of revisionism.  While I agree that White
> probably helped perfect the Zone System, the below from Ansel's autobiography,
> off a website on the 'simplified Zone System'.....
> ******************
> The history of the zone system, or was Ansel Adams the sole inventor? Here's
> what Adams says in his Autobiography. The setting is the Art Center School,
> Los
> Angeles, 1940. "With the
> cooperation of Fred Archer, instructor in photographic portraiture, I set out
> to
> plan a way by which the students would learn the 'scales and chords' to
> achieve
> technical command of the medium. It took several weeks in refinement before I
> could teach it to the students. I called my codification of practical
> sensitometry the Zone System."
> *****************
> 
> I still believe Ansel 'invented' the Zone System, I guess I was wrong about
> Weston, but I thought I remember something in the history about Weston and
> Adams
> perfecting it...ah well..
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider


Harvey,

So what are you saying? You could believe that Adams invented the Zone
System with Edward Weston, and you can believe that he did it with Fred
Archer, but you can't believe he did it with Minor White who was his
assistant at the time? I don't get it.

I'll stick with my memory of history, and the sources that back *it* up. ;-)

Todd

On Thursday 07 February 2002 09:57 pm, you wrote:

> > Dreams with a memory- Minor White remembered
> >
> > Minor White was one of the most influential,
> > inscrutable, and interesting photographers of all.
> >
> > *With Ansel Adams he developed the Zone System*, an
> > engineering methodology which (in the primitive days of
> > guesswork photography) allowed a photographer precise
> > control over the appearance of his image.
> >
> > Todd
>
> Todd,
> I fear that the above is a bit of revisionism.  While I
> agree that White probably helped perfect the Zone System,
> the below from Ansel's autobiography, off a website on
> the 'simplified Zone System'..... ******************
> The history of the zone system, or was Ansel Adams the
> sole inventor? Here's what Adams says in his
> Autobiography. The setting is the Art Center School, Los
> Angeles, 1940. "With the
> cooperation of Fred Archer, instructor in photographic
> portraiture, I set out to plan a way by which the
> students would learn the 'scales and chords' to achieve
> technical command of the medium. It took several weeks in
> refinement before I could teach it to the students. I
> called my codification of practical sensitometry the Zone
> System."
> *****************
>
> I still believe Ansel 'invented' the Zone System, I guess
> I was wrong about Weston, but I thought I remember
> something in the history about Weston and Adams
> perfecting it...ah well..
>
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
>
>
Also from Ansel Adams Autobiography:
	However , as much as I loved teaching, after a year at 
the School of Fine Arts I found myself in a struggle for 
enough time for my own work. Receiving the Guggenheim 
Fellowship in late 1946 tipped the balance, I could afford 
to use the next year to photograph for myself. My problem 
was to find another photography teacher to take my place. 
The Newhalls, knowing my dilemma, wrote and suggested their 
friend Minor White.
	Minor wrote of our first meeting in "Memorable Fancies":

"Ansel met me at the train yesterday. This morning in his 
class at the California School of Fine Arts the whole 
muddled business of exposure and development fell into 
place. This afternoon I started teaching his Zone System. 
Ansel did not know it, but his gift of photographic 
craftmanship was the celebration of a birthday."

SKID Photography wrote:
 >>> And to add to that, the zone system was invented by Ansel (and Edward
>>> Weston?)...


>> I know Minor White was one of the zone pioneers too, and perhaps the best
>> photographer of the group (IMHO).
>> 
>> Todd

 
> Sorry Todd....
> Yes great photographer and yes used the Zone system to the Nth degree, but of
> a
> different era and age than Ansel and Edward.  I do not believe he was part of
> it's invention, too young. ;-)

> Harvey Ferdschneider


Harvey, Jack,

Look, I said Minor "was one of the Zone pioneers too", not that he invented
the system instead of Ansel, jeesh.

Here's some stuff that I think will please everyone:

<http://web.a-znet.com/fstop/f-stop.faq-2.film.htm>

"The Zone System is a photographic methodology worked out in the early part
of the 20th Century by the photographers Edward Weston, Ansel Adams and
Minor White and has been carried on and refined to the present
(predominantly) by John Sexton and other Adams disciples."

<http://www.intangible.org/Features/Quick/Introduction/Introsub02.html>

While Ansel Adams is considered the founder of "the zone system of planned
photography" and Minor White is credited with popularizing the method with
his "Zone System Manual," the roots of the idea may be found in the ideas of
Edward Weston and the "straight" photographers of the American school in the
1920s. Weston and his followers, including a young Ansel Adams, formed Group
f/64 to promote Weston's vision of a pure photography where the photographer
maintained absolute control over the use of materials and equipment, as well
as composition and tonal structure, to achieve results. Weston's ideas
permeated American photography in the 1930s and '40s.

Is there anybody who's still not happy? ;-)

Todd

Todd Flashner wrote:

>  on 2/8/02 12:57 AM, SKID Photography wrote:
>
> > Todd Flashner wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>>>> And to add to that, the zone system was invented by Ansel (and Edward
> >>>> Weston?)...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I know Minor White was one of the zone pioneers too, and perhaps the best
>
> >>>> photographer of the group (IMHO).
> >>>>
> >>>> Todd
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry Todd....
> >>> Yes great photographer and yes used the Zone system to the Nth degree, but
>
> >> of
> >>> a
> >>> different era and age than Ansel and Edward.  I do not believe he was part
>
> >> of
> >>> it's invention, too young. ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >> <http://www-tech.mit.edu/V105/N57/nudewh.57a.html>
> >>
> >> Excerpted from the link above (emphasis mine):
> >>
> >> Dreams with a memory- Minor White remembered
> >>
> >> Minor White was one of the most influential, inscrutable, and
> >> interesting photographers of all.
> >>
> >> *With Ansel Adams he developed the Zone System*, an engineering methodology
>
> >> which (in the primitive days of guesswork photography) allowed a
> >> photographer precise control over the appearance of his image.
> >>
> >> Todd
> >
> > Todd,
> > I fear that the above is a bit of revisionism.  While I agree that White
> > probably helped perfect the Zone System, the below from Ansel's
> autobiography,
> > off a website on the 'simplified Zone System'.....
> > ******************
> > The history of the zone system, or was Ansel Adams the sole inventor? Here's
>
> > what Adams says in his Autobiography. The setting is the Art Center School,
> > Los
> > Angeles, 1940. "With the
> > cooperation of Fred Archer, instructor in photographic portraiture, I set
> out
> > to
> > plan a way by which the students would learn the 'scales and chords' to
> > achieve
> > technical command of the medium. It took several weeks in refinement before
> I
> > could teach it to the students. I called my codification of practical
> > sensitometry the Zone System."
> > *****************
> >
> > I still believe Ansel 'invented' the Zone System, I guess I was wrong about
> > Weston, but I thought I remember something in the history about Weston and
> > Adams
> > perfecting it...ah well..
> >
> > Harvey Ferdschneider
>
>
> Harvey,
>
> So what are you saying? You could believe that Adams invented the Zone
> System with Edward Weston, and you can believe that he did it with Fred
> Archer, but you can't believe he did it with Minor White who was his
> assistant at the time? I don't get it.
>
> I'll stick with my memory of history, and the sources that back *it* up. ;-)
>
> Todd

Todd,
I gave you a quote from Ansel Adams himself.

Believe it or don't.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 10:44 PM 2/7/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>On Thursday 07 February 2002 09:57 pm, you wrote:
>
>> > Dreams with a memory- Minor White remembered
>> >
>> > Minor White was one of the most influential,
>> > inscrutable, and interesting photographers of all.
>> >
>> > *With Ansel Adams he developed the Zone System*, an
>> > engineering methodology which (in the primitive days of
>> > guesswork photography) allowed a photographer precise
>> > control over the appearance of his image.
>> >
>> > Todd
>>
>> Todd,
>> I fear that the above is a bit of revisionism.  While I
>> agree that White probably helped perfect the Zone System,
>> the below from Ansel's autobiography, off a website on
>> the 'simplified Zone System'..... ******************
>> The history of the zone system, or was Ansel Adams the
>> sole inventor? Here's what Adams says in his
>> Autobiography. The setting is the Art Center School, Los
>> Angeles, 1940. "With the
>> cooperation of Fred Archer, instructor in photographic
>> portraiture, I set out to plan a way by which the
>> students would learn the 'scales and chords' to achieve
>> technical command of the medium. It took several weeks in
>> refinement before I could teach it to the students. I
>> called my codification of practical sensitometry the Zone
>> System."
>> *****************
>>
>> I still believe Ansel 'invented' the Zone System, I guess
>> I was wrong about Weston, but I thought I remember
>> something in the history about Weston and Adams
>> perfecting it...ah well..
>>
>> Harvey Ferdschneider
>> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
>>
>>
>Also from Ansel Adams Autobiography:
>	However , as much as I loved teaching, after a year at 
>the School of Fine Arts I found myself in a struggle for 
>enough time for my own work. Receiving the Guggenheim 
>Fellowship in late 1946 tipped the balance, I could afford 
>to use the next year to photograph for myself. My problem 
>was to find another photography teacher to take my place. 
>The Newhalls, knowing my dilemma, wrote and suggested their 
>friend Minor White.
>	Minor wrote of our first meeting in "Memorable Fancies":
>
>"Ansel met me at the train yesterday. This morning in his 
>class at the California School of Fine Arts the whole 
>muddled business of exposure and development fell into 
>place. This afternoon I started teaching his Zone System. 
>Ansel did not know it, but his gift of photographic 
>craftmanship was the celebration of a birthday."
>

Guys,

I think the confusion lies in that MW published the  "Zone System Manual  -
Ansel Adams Zone System as a Basis of intuitive Photography." (1967) He
based it on his experiences teaching it at MIT and RIT. Nowhere in the book
does he take credit for inventing it with Adams.

AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8874/
         or
keyword.com lookaround

Alan Zinn wrote:
 
> I think the confusion lies in that MW published the  "Zone System Manual  -
> Ansel Adams Zone System as a Basis of intuitive Photography." (1967) He
> based it on his experiences teaching it at MIT and RIT. Nowhere in the book
> does he take credit for inventing it with Adams.
> 
> AZ

Nor did anybody on this list say he did or should take credit for it, what I
said was he was an early pioneer of it, in as much as Edward Weston and some
others were. I don't see why that's so difficult for some to accept - (do we
need to get into the semantics of the word "pioneer"?) - probably has
something to do with the perception that Adams and Weston were gods and all
others mere mortals.

Todd

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Alan Zinn wrote:
>  
> > I think the confusion lies in that MW published the  "Zone System 
Manual  -
> > Ansel Adams Zone System as a Basis of intuitive Photography." 
(1967) He
> > based it on his experiences teaching it at MIT and RIT. Nowhere in 
the book
> > does he take credit for inventing it with Adams.
> > 
> > AZ
> 
> Nor did anybody on this list say he did or should take credit for 
it, what I
> said was he was an early pioneer of it, in as much as Edward Weston 
and some
> others were. I don't see why that's so difficult for some to accept 
- (do we
> need to get into the semantics of the word "pioneer"?) - probably 
has
> something to do with the perception that Adams and Weston were gods 
and all
> others mere mortals.
> 
> Todd

hello,

ansel and weston were in thinking and approach.while ansel was a 
tech-head of his era, weston was the hippie of his..ansel wroteabout 
his exposures, weston wrote about his life..as far as artists go 
weston was far ahead of adams.he used whatever he had at hand often 
exposing film for hours eg pepper#33..he had a very sucessful, for his 
time, portrait studio in glendale which he abandoned to pursue his 
art,ansel was also a commercial shooter first,better at product 
and cold things than at portraits,then a photographer on a very nice 
grant at that time.
the confusion comes with the weston meter,which edward did not 
invent,and the zone system refered to it...the all mighty zone 5or 6 
for skin..
they both influenced each other,even as freinds,but when it came to 
party hardy,weston was the king...the vangogh of photography,ansel to 
me was a primadonna....both were superb photographers.

on 2/8/02 8:05 PM, Alan Zinn wrote:

> At 01:04 PM 2/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> Alan Zinn wrote:
>> 
>>> I think the confusion lies in that MW published the  "Zone System Manual  -
>>> Ansel Adams Zone System as a Basis of intuitive Photography." (1967) He
>>> based it on his experiences teaching it at MIT and RIT. Nowhere in the book
>>> does he take credit for inventing it with Adams.
>>> 
>>> AZ
>> 
>> Nor did anybody on this list say he did or should take credit for it, what I
>> said was he was an early pioneer of it, in as much as Edward Weston and some
>> others were. I don't see why that's so difficult for some to accept - (do we
>> need to get into the semantics of the word "pioneer"?) - probably has
>> something to do with the perception that Adams and Weston were gods and all
>> others mere mortals.
>> 
>> Todd
>> 
>> 
> 
> Geeze Todd, why get so het up - MW is sometimes, not surprisingly given the
> popularity of the book, incorrectly given credit for developing it is the
> simple point. One could maybe say he was a prominent pioneering popularizer
> of the ZS. I wonder how many books he sold and how many editions?  I got
> mine in '68.
> 
> AZ
> Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

I get "het up", because at the earliest mention of MW, Harvey suggested
Minor was too young to have been part of it, and in spite of my showing that
Minor was only 6 years AA's junior, and worked as his assistant, and his
name is often quoted second to Ansel's in the histories of the Z system,
people keep presenting "evidence" trying to distance Minor's participation
in it's development.

The best I can ascertain is that the ZS was a concept that more than a
couple were trying to work out, Ansel was at the forefront of codifying it,
and Minor was at the forefront of disseminating it. But the notion that
Ansel worked it all out by his lonesome, and secretively from his assistant,
I believe to be erroneous.

Perhaps an analogy might be Cone with PiezoBW. Jon didn't code the driver
himself, but he is certainly a pioneer in the process.

Basically it comes down to this, Minor da man, give da man his due. Until da
man get his due, I get het. ;-)

Todd

At 01:04 PM 2/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Alan Zinn wrote:
> 
>> I think the confusion lies in that MW published the  "Zone System Manual  -
>> Ansel Adams Zone System as a Basis of intuitive Photography." (1967) He
>> based it on his experiences teaching it at MIT and RIT. Nowhere in the book
>> does he take credit for inventing it with Adams.
>> 
>> AZ
>
>Nor did anybody on this list say he did or should take credit for it, what I
>said was he was an early pioneer of it, in as much as Edward Weston and some
>others were. I don't see why that's so difficult for some to accept - (do we
>need to get into the semantics of the word "pioneer"?) - probably has
>something to do with the perception that Adams and Weston were gods and all
>others mere mortals.
>
>Todd
>
>

Geeze Todd, why get so het up - MW is sometimes, not surprisingly given the
popularity of the book, incorrectly given credit for developing it is the
simple point. One could maybe say he was a prominent pioneering popularizer
of the ZS. I wonder how many books he sold and how many editions?  I got
mine in '68.

AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8874/
         or
keyword.com lookaround