Digital BW, The Print

This is more of a speculative question at this point, mainly for Paul I 
suppose, or for others with experience with the carbon 6 inkset. I have 
just setup a 2200 with the C6 inkset and I run it with QTR . Good 
results so far, to the point that  I'm tempted to move it to the 7600 
that is currently running a K4+ inkset. However, as much as I like both 
the look of the C6 prints and the purist approach behind it, I still 
need the flexibility of tone afforded by the K4+ inks for a number of 
reasons. I also found that a few images do not print as well on C6 as 
they do on K4+. For this I wonder whether the C6 can be made into a 5C+ 
with 5 carbons + LLC and LM on the 7 inks printers. This, when driven 
with a RIP would allow one to print both pure carbon (5C versus 6C 
shouldn't make a big difference I suppose) and also get truly neutral 
tones when required.
The main question in my mind is compatibility between the Carbon base 
and the LC an LM, any major issue there?
Any other possible problem?

Dario

Dario,

Even my old 7500 looks OK at display print size with only 5 carbons 
firing.  So, in an k2 printer, you'd almost certainly have the 
smoothness you need with only 5K.

I have not loaded a printer with the C6 base carbons in addition to 
MIS or Epson LC and LM.  On the other hand, in anticipation of this 
very issue, I've had a test tube mix of Epson UC M highly diluted in 
the C6, generic base for 2 months, and it looks perfect.  I favor 
Epson M over MIS M.  So, diluting UC M with the C6 base is where I 
was intending to go with this approach, and so far, I've seen no 
evidence of incompatibility.  

(Note that MIS warns that the Eboni-6 inks are not compatible with UC 
inks, but it's the commercial dilution base that is the problem.  The 
C6 base is different.)  

While my test tube experiment is not a guarantee that there will be 
no problems, I've seen strange results and very fast settling of UC M 
and other pigments in some other bases.  In short, my best guess is 
that we can buy UC M in 7600 carts and dilute it with C6 base to get 
an economical LM.  The usual dilution for LM is 30% M to 70% base.  A 
higher dilution would be smoother.

Let us know how it works if you give it a try.

Paul  
www.PaulRoark.com 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "met.graphix" 
<metgraphix@...> wrote:
>
> This is more of a speculative question at this point, mainly for 
Paul I 
> suppose, or for others with experience with the carbon 6 inkset. I 
have 
> just setup a 2200 with the C6 inkset and I run it with QTR . Good 
> results so far, to the point that  I'm tempted to move it to the 
7600 
> that is currently running a K4+ inkset. However, as much as I like 
both 
> the look of the C6 prints and the purist approach behind it, I 
still 
> need the flexibility of tone afforded by the K4+ inks for a number 
of 
> reasons. I also found that a few images do not print as well on C6 
as 
> they do on K4+. For this I wonder whether the C6 can be made into a 
5C+ 
> with 5 carbons + LLC and LM on the 7 inks printers. This, when 
driven 
> with a RIP would allow one to print both pure carbon (5C versus 6C 
> shouldn't make a big difference I suppose) and also get truly 
neutral 
> tones when required.
> The main question in my mind is compatibility between the Carbon 
base 

> and the LC an LM, any major issue there?
> Any other possible problem?
> 
> Dario
>

That's great info Paul. As far as the LLC goes, if the proportions 
are the same as the M ink I assume we would start with MIS full C and 
dilute with the C6 base to something like 15% C to 85% base?

Dario

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> Dario,
> 
> Even my old 7500 looks OK at display print size with only 5 carbons 
> firing.  So, in an k2 printer, you'd almost certainly have the 
> smoothness you need with only 5K.
> 
> I have not loaded a printer with the C6 base carbons in addition to 
> MIS or Epson LC and LM.  On the other hand, in anticipation of this 
> very issue, I've had a test tube mix of Epson UC M highly diluted 
in 
> the C6, generic base for 2 months, and it looks perfect.  I favor 
> Epson M over MIS M.  So, diluting UC M with the C6 base is where I 
> was intending to go with this approach, and so far, I've seen no 
> evidence of incompatibility.  
> 
> (Note that MIS warns that the Eboni-6 inks are not compatible with 
UC 
> inks, but it's the commercial dilution base that is the problem.  
The 
> C6 base is different.)  
> 
> While my test tube experiment is not a guarantee that there will be 
> no problems, I've seen strange results and very fast settling of UC 
M 
> and other pigments in some other bases.  In short, my best guess is 
> that we can buy UC M in 7600 carts and dilute it with C6 base to 
get 
> an economical LM.  The usual dilution for LM is 30% M to 70% base.  
A 

> higher dilution would be smoother.
> 
> Let us know how it works if you give it a try.
> 
> Paul  
> www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "met.graphix" 
<metgraphix@...> wrote:
>
> That's great info Paul. As far as the LLC goes, if the proportions 
> are the same as the M ink I assume we would start with MIS full C and 
> dilute with the C6 base to something like 15% C to 85% base?
> 
> Dario

That should work.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:

> On the other hand, in anticipation of this 
> very issue, I've had a test tube mix of Epson UC M highly diluted 
in 
> the C6, generic base for 2 months, and it looks perfect.  I favor 
> Epson M over MIS M.  So, diluting UC M with the C6 base is where I 
> was intending to go with this approach, and so far, I've seen no 
> evidence of incompatibility.  

Paul,

An obvious alternative thought is to mix the toners directly with the 
gray inks in order to obtain a neutral tone. This would then be very 
similar to Cone's neutral K6 inks. It's of course an option just to 
purchase these inks, but both in terms of cost saving but also an 
interesting journey, I'm interested to understabd if this can be a 
feasible DIY project, especially for older, large droplet printers.

As toner one can probably either use a combination of Cyan and 
Magenta or your R800 Blue. The key question is if one can expect that 
the ratio of toner vs. carbon is the same for all ink shades. If so, 
than the mixing and dilution process can be quite simple, rather 
similar to you C6 scheme. If not, than both the research and the 
dilution process become rather complex.

Any thoughts on this? 

Joost

Joost,

> An ... alternative ... is to mix the toners directly with the 
> gray inks in order to obtain a neutral tone.

We know the "glossy" MIS carbon pigments are compatible with the MIS 
color pigs.  They are blended in inksets such as the new UT-14.  The 
cyan channel of the UT-14 inkset is a 60/40 carbon/color mix.  
See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf

These inks use the base that is the same as Glop and are, of course, 
glossy compatible.

I have not tried an Eboni-MIS color blend in the generic C-6 base.  
It might well work.  (The compatibility concern of MIS was the Eboni-
6 base and the UC pigments.)  I'm probably not going to make such an 
inkset, however.


> As toner one can probably either use a combination of Cyan and 
> Magenta or your R800 Blue.

Even when the MIS R800 Blue pigment is used instead of magenta you'll 
need cyan in the mix.

> The key question is if one can expect that the ratio of 
> toner vs. carbon is the same for all ink shades.

It's not, and it may change for each paper.  That is one of the 
compromises of a blended inkset.  Dealing with the need to vary the 
toner/carbon ratio is what led me to the variable-tone approach in 
the first place.  Software (curves and profiles) allows us to control 
the ratio much more easily than having separate mixes.

Then again the ideal cyan/magenta ratio will also vary.  That led to 
the 3D inkset.  But at some point the "cost" of perfection in terms 
of work exceeds the benefits.  So, I'm back to the simpler variable-
tone approach in the UT-14 inkset.  It's simple and does a very good 
job, even if not perfect.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com