Digital BW, The Print

Jeff,

That is very interesting. I have been using H.PR 308 with a bit of reservation as I was concerned about the bright white color doing just as you report. In all honesty, I have two boxes of 17x22 and only used about a dozen sheets.  Also, I have a large supply of H. William Turner and German Etching that will take a long time to use up. Perhaps someone else on this list could do some south window tests on it. After I moved, I no longer have a clear facing south window.

I guess for now, I will stick with William Turner. A shame really as it is a lovely paper.

BTW, I have a brand new unopened 24" roll of 308 if anyone needs one.

MIke

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ljkorte 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:31 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow


  Hello,

  I've been printing with Hahnemuhle Photorag 308 for the past 
  three months and have accumulated quite a pile of test prints 
  that are scattered about.

  The prints on top of the heap or pinned to the wall have turned 
  yellow within a couple months of being printed.

  The prints behind glass or under shrink wrap appear to be 
  holding up. Still, I'm concerned about the rapid aging of this 
  otherwise great paper.

  Has anyone else noticed this?

  Regards,

  Jeff




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike,

The yellowed photorag prints have never been in any kind of 
direct light (other than normal room 100 watt). I just checked a 
box of matted prints in shrink wrap that have been dark for two 
months. They are still bright white.

Do you, or does anyone know if the optical brightener yellows 
with exposure to air? Or light? or a combination. I'd like to believe 
that the prints I've recently put under glass for a show will hold up  
for the next couple of months under normal gallery lighting.

I'm going to have to stop using the HR photorag as well because 
of this. Can anyone recommend a paper with similar white base 
and dmax? I suspect that the other Hahnemuhle papers using 
OBs will yellow as well. Too bad.

Thanks for any advice,

Jeff



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> Jeff,
> 
> That is very interesting. I have been using H.PR 308 with a bit 
of reservation as I was concerned about the bright white color 
doing just as you report. In all honesty, I have two boxes of 17x22 
and only used about a dozen sheets.  Also, I have a large supply 
of H. William Turner and German Etching that will take a long 
time to use up. Perhaps someone else on this list could do 
some south window tests on it. After I moved, I no longer have a 
clear facing south window.
> 
> I guess for now, I will stick with William Turner. A shame really 
as it is a lovely paper.
> 
> BTW, I have a brand new unopened 24" roll of 308 if anyone 
needs one.

> 
> MIke
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: ljkorte 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:31 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow
> 
> 
>   Hello,
> 
>   I've been printing with Hahnemuhle Photorag 308 for the past 
>   three months and have accumulated quite a pile of test prints 
>   that are scattered about.
> 
>   The prints on top of the heap or pinned to the wall have turned 
>   yellow within a couple months of being printed.
> 
>   The prints behind glass or under shrink wrap appear to be 
>   holding up. Still, I'm concerned about the rapid aging of this 
>   otherwise great paper.
> 
>   Has anyone else noticed this?
> 
>   Regards,
> 
>   Jeff
>

Lets try this backward and see what comes up.

Has anyone ever used ANY paper with ANY inkset that has NOT faded or
changed paper color in a sunlight test? Say 2 or 3 months in a sunny window?

If you have, What inks and papers won?

Jerry

Mike, Jeff,

If you look back in the archives I believe Paul Roark did some fade testing
of the Photo Rag and it held up well in comparison of other papers. It does
have optical brighteners and will yellow slightly with time but I would not
expect it to happen so quickly and with minimal light exposure. I have been
using quite a bit of it myself and have not seen any problems so far but I
will take another look.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow


> Jeff,
>
> That is very interesting. I have been using H.PR 308 with a bit of
reservation as I was concerned about the bright white color doing just as
you report. In all honesty, I have two boxes of 17x22 and only used about a
dozen sheets.  Also, I have a large supply of H. William Turner and German
Etching that will take a long time to use up. Perhaps someone else on this
list could do some south window tests on it. After I moved, I no longer have
a clear facing south window.
>
> I guess for now, I will stick with William Turner. A shame really as it is
a lovely paper.
>
> BTW, I have a brand new unopened 24" roll of 308 if anyone needs one.
>
> MIke
(snip)

>I think that Paul Roark found the BrightCube Eclipse is the only paper to
hold up >as well as Epson Archival Matt.

Yes, but I've not tested all that many papers.  It yellowed a bit, but
slightly less than, for example, EAM, which yellows about 3 units (on 256
scale).

Museo is the only one of the tested papers that did not yellow.  But, it
faded more in the dark tones.

I think the consensus is that all papers with brighteners yellow with light
exposure.  Once the brighteners are "burned out" the yellowing stops.
Whether the brighteners have a negative effect on image permanence is an
open question in my mind.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Jeff,

I think that Paul Roark found the BrightCube Eclipse is the only paper to hold up as well as Epson Archival Matt. You may want to check with him.

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ljkorte 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 11:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow


  Mike,

  The yellowed photorag prints have never been in any kind of 
  direct light (other than normal room 100 watt). I just checked a 
  box of matted prints in shrink wrap that have been dark for two 
  months. They are still bright white.

  Do you, or does anyone know if the optical brightener yellows 
  with exposure to air? Or light? or a combination. I'd like to believe 
  that the prints I've recently put under glass for a show will hold up  
  for the next couple of months under normal gallery lighting.

  I'm going to have to stop using the HR photorag as well because 
  of this. Can anyone recommend a paper with similar white base 
  and dmax? I suspect that the other Hahnemuhle papers using 
  OBs will yellow as well. Too bad.

  Thanks for any advice,

  Jeff



  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
  <michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
  > Jeff,
  > 
  > That is very interesting. I have been using H.PR 308 with a bit 
  of reservation as I was concerned about the bright white color 
  doing just as you report. In all honesty, I have two boxes of 17x22 
  and only used about a dozen sheets.  Also, I have a large supply 
  of H. William Turner and German Etching that will take a long 
  time to use up. Perhaps someone else on this list could do 
  some south window tests on it. After I moved, I no longer have a 
  clear facing south window.
  > 
  > I guess for now, I will stick with William Turner. A shame really 
  as it is a lovely paper.
  > 
  > BTW, I have a brand new unopened 24" roll of 308 if anyone 
  needs one.
  > 
  > MIke
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: ljkorte 
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
  >   Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:31 AM
  >   Subject: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow
  > 
  > 
  >   Hello,
  > 
  >   I've been printing with Hahnemuhle Photorag 308 for the past 
  >   three months and have accumulated quite a pile of test prints 
  >   that are scattered about.
  > 
  >   The prints on top of the heap or pinned to the wall have turned 
  >   yellow within a couple months of being printed.
  > 
  >   The prints behind glass or under shrink wrap appear to be 
  >   holding up. Still, I'm concerned about the rapid aging of this 
  >   otherwise great paper.
  > 
  >   Has anyone else noticed this?
  > 
  >   Regards,
  > 
  >   Jeff
  > 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Do you, or does anyone know if the optical brightener yellows
>with exposure to air? Or light? or a combination. I'd like to believe
>that the prints I've recently put under glass for a show will hold up
>for the next couple of months under normal gallery lighting.

If Jeff got an answer to this follow-up question of his, I missed it 
and hope someone will send it to me.

Thanks.

Sam            samcc@...

Sam,

Check the Files section under:

Files > Archival Issues

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Archival%2
0Issues/)

For a discussion on this by Robert Rex of Crane.

The OBA's should only degrade with exposure to UV.

Martin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam A. McCandless" <samcc@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow


> >Do you, or does anyone know if the optical brightener yellows
> >with exposure to air? Or light? or a combination. I'd like to believe
> >that the prints I've recently put under glass for a show will hold up
> >for the next couple of months under normal gallery lighting.
>
> If Jeff got an answer to this follow-up question of his, I missed it
> and hope someone will send it to me.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sam            samcc@...
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: "ljkorte" <jeffkorte@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow



(snip)

> Can anyone recommend a paper with similar white base
> and dmax? I suspect that the other Hahnemuhle papers using
> OBs will yellow as well. Too bad.

Jeff,

Any paper with a base as white or whiter than Photo Rag is going to have
OBA's. Including all of Hahnemuhle papers.

Eclipse Satine is a favorite of mine. A very neutral white and brighter than
Photo Rag but it also has OBA's.

Museo has no OBA's but you will probably find that both the Dmin and Dmax
are not up to the level of papers with OBA's.

Since there have been no other reports of yellowing Photo Rag, I wonder if
there is something else going on in your environment.

Martin

I just looked at two om yimages. One printed 9 months ago on H. Torchon and
the other printed a few months ago on H. Photo Rag 308. The Torchon image
was on display for 6 months in a gallery. Neither show any signs of
yellowing.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow


> Sam,
>
> Check the Files section under:
>
> Files > Archival Issues
>
>
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Archival%2
> 0Issues/)
>
> For a discussion on this by Robert Rex of Crane.
>
> The OBA's should only degrade with exposure to UV.
>
> Martin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam A. McCandless" <samcc@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow
>
>
> > >Do you, or does anyone know if the optical brightener yellows
> > >with exposure to air? Or light? or a combination. I'd like to believe
> > >that the prints I've recently put under glass for a show will hold up
> > >for the next couple of months under normal gallery lighting.
> >
> > If Jeff got an answer to this follow-up question of his, I missed it
> > and hope someone will send it to me.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Sam            samcc@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

That's great news. Perhaps being under glass averts or slows 
the yellowing.  Thanks to all who replied.

Jeff




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> I just looked at two om yimages. One printed 9 months ago on 
H. Torchon and
> the other printed a few months ago on H. Photo Rag 308. The 
Torchon image
> was on display for 6 months in a gallery. Neither show any 
signs of

> yellowing.
> 
> Mike

I'll chime in a bit here.
My thoughts are that since Michael (in FLA) is having different experiences
from Jeff, and that Jeff's (located where?) experience has been yellowing
not due to light, that the yellowing may be due to the OBA's or some
reaction between the OBA or coating and the environment.  
first question:  how are the Hahnemuhle papers packaged?  I remember
Somerset E had a yellowing problem several months back which seemed to be
caused from a reaction between the coating and the plastic bag in which it
was packaged.  I think this has now been corrected.  I also remember that
the Lyson FA (hahnemuhle re-branded) papers turned yellow when exposed to
corrugated cardboard (probably the acid in the cardboard leaching into the
FA paper.
second question: what is the environment in your studio, Jeff?  humidity,
temperature.
third: see if there is a lot number on the package.  report it to whomever
you purchased that box from.  it may be a bad batch, and see if you can get
a replacement box.  If you can, than with the replacement box try something
different: get the RH to at least 50% (temp at 65-75) and keep the paper in
the same room withe the ink and printers.

...Or just use Museo {insert very big grin here} and help pay for my salary;).

hope these thoughts help,
sincere regards
robert rex
yes, i still work for crane & co

At 01:30 PM 2/9/02 -0800, you wrote:
>    
> ----- Original Message -----
>""<>
><>
> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow
> 
> 
> 
> (snip)
> 
>> Can anyone recommend a paper with similar white base
>> and dmax? I suspect that the other Hahnemuhle papers using
>> OBs will yellow as well. Too bad.
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> Any paper with a base as white or whiter than Photo Rag is going to have
> OBA's. Including all of Hahnemuhle papers.
> 
> Eclipse Satine is a favorite of mine. A very neutral white and brighter than
> Photo Rag but it also has OBA's.
> 
> Museo has no OBA's but you will probably find that both the Dmin and Dmax
> are not up to the level of papers with OBA's.
> 
> Since there have been no other reports of yellowing Photo Rag, I wonder if
> there is something else going on in your environment.
> 
> Martin
> 
>   
>      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor   ADVERTISEMENT
>        
>  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>""
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
>  
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     
PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--

chameleon@...


IF THE "pop" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS, 
DELETE THE "pop."  
THIS IS IMPORTANT, 
OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.

No sign of yellowing here! I've only had them scattered about for 2 months. I 
do have a full show up on Photorag with several of the prints facing the 
street! Plenty of light coming in. I'll let you know how they hold up in 
about 3 more weeks. If your in the D.C. area I've heard that many of the USPS 
packages are getting xray exposure resulting in yellowing of some paper 
products. This may not show immediately.
Humidity or dampish cold paper my accelerate a yellowing. 
On a side note I window tested Hawk Mountain Osprey(a bright white paper) a 
couple years ago. The paper base yellowed in only a few days in the window. 
Now 2 years later the Osprey prints laying around indoors without direct UV 
exposure are fine and the ink tone is more stable than any other paper I've 
seen except maybe uncoated Sumerset Velvet. 
Steve M.
Seattle,Wa.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 02/09/2002 4:17:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
michael.kravit@... writes:


> Steve,
> 
> I wonder if it could be a reaction between the x-rays and anthrax spores?
> ;-)
> 
> Mike



> Since the  person printing  is still alive to tell about the yellowing, good 
> sign no Anthrax in his area. Quick, print on it and get some one of a kinds 
> going! :)
> I have just about every kind of paper Known to the inkjet world laying 
> around here. A lot of it more than 3 years.
> I have never seen a paper base yellow just lying around. In the window yes!
> I'm not too nervous about PhotoRag, but as usual with my timing I bought 
> about 600.00
> worth this week. Naturally, I started a window test today! But with all the 
> window tests I did a couple years ago,
> just about everything ends up with the same sort of changes in a month. 
> Mike, does your Florida source ship paper? I might be looking into getting 
> the 35x46 3/4 William Turner sheets.
> If Photo Rag turns out to be a loser, than William Turner is the only other 
> paper I would use. My criteria is to use only papers that look good in all 
> types of lighting with MIS FS inks. Actually Jazz, Wells River types do 
> well in all lighting   too just not as good as PHOTORAG!

> Steve M.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Rex 
<chameleon@i...> wrote:

Robert,

Thanks for the comments. I read your notes in files>archival 
issues. It's odd that my prints that have yellowed receive very little  
indirect window light and no direct sunlight (I'm guessing a very 
small amount of UV in total).

 
> first question:  how are the Hahnemuhle papers packaged? 

My paper was shipped in paperboard boxes with a single cover 
sheet on top. No plastic bag. Labeled "The Hahnemuhle 
Collection Digital Fine Art"

> second question: what is the environment in your studio, Jeff?  
humidity,
> temperature.

I'm in Minneapolis. Cold and very dry air this winter. Temp in my 
studio is about 70-75.

> third: see if there is a lot number on the package.  report it to 
whomever
> you purchased that box from.  it may be a bad batch, and see if 
you can get
> a replacement box.  If you can, than with the replacement box 
try something
> different: get the RH to at least 50% (temp at 65-75) and keep 
the paper in
> the same room withe the ink and printers.

Thanks, I plan to contact the supplier.

I'm also putting some prints in different spots around the house, 
some exposed, some under glass. It might tell me something...

One thing that may be a clue: the yellowed prints appear to have 
at least one edge (about 1/8") that has not yellowed. Maybe the 
OB is not applied "borderless"?

Jeff

Robert,

Museo is a lovely paper, nice texture, weight and packaged exquisitely...I
love it for all those reasons, but, is there a way to get better blacks
(dmax)?

Thanks
Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Rex" <chameleon@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow


> I'll chime in a bit here.
> My thoughts are that since Michael (in FLA) is having different
experiences
> from Jeff, and that Jeff's (located where?) experience has been yellowing
> not due to light, that the yellowing may be due to the OBA's or some
> reaction between the OBA or coating and the environment.
> first question:  how are the Hahnemuhle papers packaged?  I remember
> Somerset E had a yellowing problem several months back which seemed to be
> caused from a reaction between the coating and the plastic bag in which it
> was packaged.  I think this has now been corrected.  I also remember that
> the Lyson FA (hahnemuhle re-branded) papers turned yellow when exposed to
> corrugated cardboard (probably the acid in the cardboard leaching into the
> FA paper.
> second question: what is the environment in your studio, Jeff?  humidity,
> temperature.
> third: see if there is a lot number on the package.  report it to whomever
> you purchased that box from.  it may be a bad batch, and see if you can
get
> a replacement box.  If you can, than with the replacement box try
something
> different: get the RH to at least 50% (temp at 65-75) and keep the paper
in
> the same room withe the ink and printers.
>
> ...Or just use Museo {insert very big grin here} and help pay for my
salary;).
>
> hope these thoughts help,
> sincere regards
> robert rex
> yes, i still work for crane & co
>
> At 01:30 PM 2/9/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >""<>
> ><>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 9:33 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow
> >
> >
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> >> Can anyone recommend a paper with similar white base
> >> and dmax? I suspect that the other Hahnemuhle papers using
> >> OBs will yellow as well. Too bad.
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Any paper with a base as white or whiter than Photo Rag is going to have
> > OBA's. Including all of Hahnemuhle papers.
> >
> > Eclipse Satine is a favorite of mine. A very neutral white and brighter
than
> > Photo Rag but it also has OBA's.
> >
> > Museo has no OBA's but you will probably find that both the Dmin and
Dmax
> > are not up to the level of papers with OBA's.
> >
> > Since there have been no other reports of yellowing Photo Rag, I wonder
if
> > there is something else going on in your environment.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor   ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> >other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> >them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> >""
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> >resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Robert,

The Hahnemuhle papers I buy are actually the Lyson version. I buy the
37-1/2"x47-3/4" (or someting close to that) sheets. They come packaged in a
box and wrapped in plastic.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Rex" <chameleon@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow


> I'll chime in a bit here.
> My thoughts are that since Michael (in FLA) is having different
experiences
> from Jeff, and that Jeff's (located where?) experience has been yellowing
> not due to light, that the yellowing may be due to the OBA's or some
> reaction between the OBA or coating and the environment.
> first question:  how are the Hahnemuhle papers packaged?  I remember
> Somerset E had a yellowing problem several months back which seemed to be
> caused from a reaction between the coating and the plastic bag in which it
> was packaged.  I think this has now been corrected.  I also remember that
> the Lyson FA (hahnemuhle re-branded) papers turned yellow when exposed to
> corrugated cardboard (probably the acid in the cardboard leaching into the
> FA paper.
> second question: what is the environment in your studio, Jeff?  humidity,
> temperature.
> third: see if there is a lot number on the package.  report it to whomever
> you purchased that box from.  it may be a bad batch, and see if you can
get
> a replacement box.  If you can, than with the replacement box try
something
> different: get the RH to at least 50% (temp at 65-75) and keep the paper
in
> the same room withe the ink and printers.
>
> ...Or just use Museo {insert very big grin here} and help pay for my
salary;).
>
> hope these thoughts help,
> sincere regards
> robert rex
> yes, i still work for crane & co
>
> At 01:30 PM 2/9/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >""<>
> ><>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 9:33 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow
> >
> >
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> >> Can anyone recommend a paper with similar white base
> >> and dmax? I suspect that the other Hahnemuhle papers using
> >> OBs will yellow as well. Too bad.
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Any paper with a base as white or whiter than Photo Rag is going to have
> > OBA's. Including all of Hahnemuhle papers.
> >
> > Eclipse Satine is a favorite of mine. A very neutral white and brighter
than
> > Photo Rag but it also has OBA's.
> >
> > Museo has no OBA's but you will probably find that both the Dmin and
Dmax
> > are not up to the level of papers with OBA's.
> >
> > Since there have been no other reports of yellowing Photo Rag, I wonder
if
> > there is something else going on in your environment.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor   ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> >other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
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> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> >them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> >""
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> >resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--
>
> chameleon@...
>
>
> IF THE "pop" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS,
> DELETE THE "pop."
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> OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>
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>
>

Steve,

I wonder if it could be a reaction between the x-rays and anthrax spores?
;-)

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <sdmey4@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow


> No sign of yellowing here! I've only had them scattered about for 2
months. I
> do have a full show up on Photorag with several of the prints facing the
> street! Plenty of light coming in. I'll let you know how they hold up in
> about 3 more weeks. If your in the D.C. area I've heard that many of the
USPS
> packages are getting xray exposure resulting in yellowing of some paper
> products. This may not show immediately.
> Humidity or dampish cold paper my accelerate a yellowing.
> On a side note I window tested Hawk Mountain Osprey(a bright white paper)
a
> couple years ago. The paper base yellowed in only a few days in the
window.
> Now 2 years later the Osprey prints laying around indoors without direct
UV
> exposure are fine and the ink tone is more stable than any other paper
I've
> seen except maybe uncoated Sumerset Velvet.
> Steve M.
> Seattle,Wa.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
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>
>
>

OK, I'll add my 2 cents.  First OBs degrade in radiation, not just in UV
exposure.  Have you considered that you might be in an area that has a Radon gas
problem?  A long shot, I admit, but it's always a possibility.  It's more common
than people realize.

The second thing is that I believe that Photrag has the OBs in the paper base
(it comes from the raw material recycle rag source) not the coatings, so the
problem should not be incomplete, uneven coating.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC



Robert Rex wrote:

>  I'll chime in a bit here.
> My thoughts are that since Michael (in FLA) is having different experiences
> from Jeff, and that Jeff's (located where?) experience has been yellowing
> not due to light, that the yellowing may be due to the OBA's or some
> reaction between the OBA or coating and the environment.
> first question:  how are the Hahnemuhle papers packaged?  I remember
> Somerset E had a yellowing problem several months back which seemed to be
> caused from a reaction between the coating and the plastic bag in which it
> was packaged.  I think this has now been corrected.  I also remember that
> the Lyson FA (hahnemuhle re-branded) papers turned yellow when exposed to
> corrugated cardboard (probably the acid in the cardboard leaching into the
> FA paper.
> second question: what is the environment in your studio, Jeff?  humidity,
> temperature.
> third: see if there is a lot number on the package.  report it to whomever
> you purchased that box from.  it may be a bad batch, and see if you can get
> a replacement box.  If you can, than with the replacement box try something
> different: get the RH to at least 50% (temp at 65-75) and keep the paper in
> the same room withe the ink and printers.
>
> ...Or just use Museo {insert very big grin here} and help pay for my salary;).
>
> hope these thoughts help,
> sincere regards
> robert rex
> yes, i still work for crane & co
>
> At 01:30 PM 2/9/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >""<>
> ><>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 9:33 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow
> >
> >
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> >> Can anyone recommend a paper with similar white base
> >> and dmax? I suspect that the other Hahnemuhle papers using
> >> OBs will yellow as well. Too bad.
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Any paper with a base as white or whiter than Photo Rag is going to have
> > OBA's. Including all of Hahnemuhle papers.
> >
> > Eclipse Satine is a favorite of mine. A very neutral white and brighter than
>
> > Photo Rag but it also has OBA's.
> >
> > Museo has no OBA's but you will probably find that both the Dmin and Dmax
> > are not up to the level of papers with OBA's.
> >
> > Since there have been no other reports of yellowing Photo Rag, I wonder if
> > there is something else going on in your environment.
> >
> > Martin
> >
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

I believe that they will ship out of state. They will probably have the
distributor drop ship to you.  I just committed to 10 packs to get a
substancial discount. The price dropped from roughly $275 to under $250 a
pack. I am waiting for the final price. If you need some, I will give you
the sales person name. I won't be back in the office until Tuesday. We are
travelling with my son visiting Law schools here in the state.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: <sdmey4@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow


> In a message dated 02/09/2002 4:17:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> michael.kravit@... writes:
>
>
> > Steve,
> >
> > I wonder if it could be a reaction between the x-rays and anthrax
spores?
> > ;-)
> >
> > Mike
>
>
>
> > Since the  person printing  is still alive to tell about the yellowing,
good
> > sign no Anthrax in his area. Quick, print on it and get some one of a
kinds
> > going! :)
> > I have just about every kind of paper Known to the inkjet world laying
> > around here. A lot of it more than 3 years.
> > I have never seen a paper base yellow just lying around. In the window
yes!
> > I'm not too nervous about PhotoRag, but as usual with my timing I bought
> > about 600.00
> > worth this week. Naturally, I started a window test today! But with all
the
> > window tests I did a couple years ago,
> > just about everything ends up with the same sort of changes in a month.
> > Mike, does your Florida source ship paper? I might be looking into
getting
> > the 35x46 3/4 William Turner sheets.
> > If Photo Rag turns out to be a loser, than William Turner is the only
other
> > paper I would use. My criteria is to use only papers that look good in
all
> > types of lighting with MIS FS inks. Actually Jazz, Wells River types do
> > well in all lighting   too just not as good as PHOTORAG!
>
> > Steve M.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Steve and Harvey are correct. I didn't even consider the added security
measures that UPS, USPS, or FEDEX may be using these days (x-rays, and
other radioactive elements).  
Also, OBA's by their nature of an additive (whether in the raw material,
paper making process or coating process) are found throughout the sheet.
If you are finding that the yellowing is localized, then this would
indicate (IMHO) that there is something else is going on.
Steve, Mike: don't worry to much about the $600 of paper you just
bought...yet.  if your paper arrived well, and your storing your paper
well, and your store and exhibit your prints properly, then I think you
should be fine.  It wouldn't hurt to do a window test to be safe.  (and
yes, we are working on improving the dmax issue.)  I still think papers
without OBA's are more secure, but i do understand your perspective as
photographers
hope this helps
sincerely
robert rex

At 10:16 PM 2/9/02 -0500, you wrote:
>     First OBs degrade in radiation, not just in UV
>  Have you considered that you might be in an area that has a Radon gas
>   It's more common
> than people realize.
> 
> The second thing is that I believe that Photrag has the OBs in the paper
base
> (it comes from the raw material recycle rag source) not the coatings, so the
> problem should not be incomplete, uneven coating.
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Rex wrote:
> 
>>  I'll chime in a bit here.
>> My thoughts are that since Michael (in FLA) is having different experiences
>> from Jeff, and that Jeff's (located where?) experience has been yellowing
>> not due to light, that the yellowing may be due to the OBA's or some
>> reaction between the OBA or coating and the environment.
>>   I remember
>> Somerset E had a yellowing problem several months back which seemed to be
>> caused from a reaction between the coating and the plastic bag in which it
>>   I also remember that
>> the Lyson FA (hahnemuhle re-branded) papers turned yellow when exposed to
>> corrugated cardboard (probably the acid in the cardboard leaching into the
>> FA paper.
>>  humidity,
>> temperature.
>>  report it to whomever
>>  it may be a bad batch, and see if you can get
>>  If you can, than with the replacement box try something
>> different: get the RH to at least 50% (temp at 65-75) and keep the paper in
>> the same room withe the ink and printers.
>>
>> ...Or just use Museo {insert very big grin here} and help pay for my
>salary;).
>>
>> hope these thoughts help,
>> sincere regards
>> robert rex
>>& co
>>
>> At 01:30 PM 2/9/02 -0800, you wrote:
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>""<>
>>><>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 9:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Photorag 308 turning yellow
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>> Can anyone recommend a paper with similar white base
>>>> and dmax? I suspect that the other Hahnemuhle papers using
>>>> OBs will yellow as well. Too bad.
>>>
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> Any paper with a base as white or whiter than Photo Rag is going to have
>>> OBA's. Including all of Hahnemuhle papers.
>>>
>>> Eclipse Satine is a favorite of mine. A very neutral white and brighter
than
>>
>>> Photo Rag but it also has OBA's.
>>>
>>> Museo has no OBA's but you will probably find that both the Dmin and Dmax
>>> are not up to the level of papers with OBA's.
>>>
>>> Since there have been no other reports of yellowing Photo Rag, I wonder if
>>> there is something else going on in your environment.
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>   
>      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor   ADVERTISEMENT
>        
>  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>""
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
>resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
>  
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     
PLEASE NOTE:  WHEN REPLYING, ENSURE THAT EMAIL ADDRESS READS--

chameleon@...


IF THE "pop" IS PRESENT IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS, 
DELETE THE "pop."  
THIS IS IMPORTANT, 
OTHERWISE I WILL NOT RECEIVE YOUR MESSAGE.

When a user reported a yellowing of the photorag paper base on prints that 
where just lying about, I immediately placed a print in the South window 
2/10/02. 12-13 days later I see no sign of yellowing of the paper base. Its 
not much time I no, but I'm really impressed as other papers have yellowed in 
a week. For a bright white paper I think this is very good. 
On another note, I have another box of Photorag that was 35x46 that I had cut 
in half. The very top sheet did have two bright yellow patches near the end 
of the sheet like it had been in contact with something acidic. Looks like a 
tape mark or contact mark from cardboard. There is something environmentally 
sensitive about this paper, but I doubt its UV. I'am still going to use the 
paper confidently, and may try to reproduce the yellowing staining with 
contact with other acidic sources.
Steven Meyers


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I first wrote about the yellowing photorag 308 about three weeks 
ago. My test strips that are lying about the studio out of direct light 
are turning yellow. Strips buried in the stack don't show 
yellowing.

Since then it's been suggested that it could be localized 
environmental conditions. This could be. I contacted Digital Art 
Supplies and they asked that I send off some samples to 
Hahnemuhle.

I did, and when/if I hear any news from their lab I'll post to the 
group.

Best Regards,

Jeff Korte



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:


> When a user reported a yellowing of the photorag paper base 
on prints that 
> where just lying about, I immediately placed a print in the South 
window 
> 2/10/02. 12-13 days later I see no sign of yellowing of the 
paper base. Its 
> not much time I no, but I'm really impressed as other papers 
have yellowed in 
> a week. For a bright white paper I think this is very good. 
> On another note, I have another box of Photorag that was 
35x46 that I had cut 
> in half. The very top sheet did have two bright yellow patches 
near the end 
> of the sheet like it had been in contact with something acidic. 
Looks like a 
> tape mark or contact mark from cardboard. There is something 
environmentally 
> sensitive about this paper, but I doubt its UV. I'am still going to 
use the 
> paper confidently, and may try to reproduce the yellowing 
staining with 

> contact with other acidic sources.
> Steven Meyers
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

PhotoRag has optical brighteners in it...so it will eventually turn yellow
if left in light.  Just be aware that this will happen to your prints after
they are printed as well.  Not a problem if you are intending to store the
prints in the dark or in a portfolio...but I personally wouldn't use this
paper for any kind of permanent display.

Robert

On 2/25/02 7:29 AM, "ljkorte" <jeffkorte@...> wrote:

> I first wrote about the yellowing photorag 308 about three weeks
> ago. My test strips that are lying about the studio out of direct light
> are turning yellow. Strips buried in the stack don't show
> yellowing.
> 
> Since then it's been suggested that it could be localized
> environmental conditions. This could be. I contacted Digital Art
> Supplies and they asked that I send off some samples to
> Hahnemuhle.
> 
> I did, and when/if I hear any news from their lab I'll post to the
> group.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Jeff Korte
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> 
> 
>> When a user reported a yellowing of the photorag paper base
> on prints that 
>> where just lying about, I immediately placed a print in the South
> window 
>> 2/10/02. 12-13 days later I see no sign of yellowing of the
> paper base. Its 
>> not much time I no, but I'm really impressed as other papers
> have yellowed in 
>> a week. For a bright white paper I think this is very good.
>> On another note, I have another box of Photorag that was
> 35x46 that I had cut
>> in half. The very top sheet did have two bright yellow patches
> near the end 
>> of the sheet like it had been in contact with something acidic.
> Looks like a 
>> tape mark or contact mark from cardboard. There is something
> environmentally 
>> sensitive about this paper, but I doubt its UV. I'am still going to
> use the 
>> paper confidently, and may try to reproduce the yellowing
> staining with 
>> contact with other acidic sources.
>> Steven Meyers
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066