Digital BW, The Print

I have been thinking of buying a 1400 and dedicating it to printing on Lustre papers, ie 
Ilford Gold Fibre and the like.

Since I am starting from scratch if I make up an ink set, I am wondering if PKN would a 
suitable ink as a most neutral starting point for my black.  And I am wondering if PKN 
would be similarly neutral when diluted for at least 3 other positions.   I would use Glop as 
the dilution mixer to minimize the gloss differential.

  I note with interest the idea of using Eboni in all different dilutions, and so am wondering 
if Paul or others have tried diluting PKN for lustre papers.  I know it is a nice cool neutral 
as a black.

Any thoughts on an ideal Lustre B&W ink set.

---

Regarding Glop, I have used it in the mix of lighter inks with some success on a 2200.  
But I have never completely eliminated gloss differential on the pure white areas in an 
image.  I note that HP Z3100 series has a Glop channel and looking at prints from that 
machine, gloss differential is entirely gone.

 Using QTR, is  a reversed curve with the Glop channel the right idea...so that it lays down 
more glop on highlights including the paper white areas.  Has anyone experimented with 
making Glop curves.  The only issue I see with doing this is not really knowing if the ink 
channel is working, since it would be impossible to see a nozzle check.  Ideas, anyone????   

Thanks in advance.

Phil

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brouwerkent" 
<philip@...> wrote:
>
> I have been thinking of buying a 1400 and dedicating it to 
> printing on Lustre papers, ie Ilford Gold Fibre and the like.
> 
> Since I am starting from scratch if I make up an ink set, 
> I am wondering if PKN would a suitable ink as a most 
> neutral starting point for my black.

I'd avoid MIS's original "PKN."  It was fine for the older printers 
and for the K position.  It's too cyan/green for dilution, and it's 
not a modern ink in terms of the carbon load.

The UT14-C has the right mix of color, but it's colder than you'll 
want if used alone for all the dilutions.  However, as the coldest, 
darkest modern "PKN," it's the place to start for a cool PKN.

I think it's tough to make a glossy-compatible monotone that is going 
to look the way you want it to across the board.  For example, the 
UT14-C is 40% color, 60% PK.  That is what you need for a "neutral" 
highlight.  But, it's too cool for the midtones.  So, if you want 
a "neutral" that keeps to a straight line from paper white to black, 
you'll need to have different ratios of UT14-C to PK for the 
different dilutions -- probably too much work.  

The 260 UT-RC neutral and cool inks use the same blue/cyan ratio, but 
have 20% in the "neutral" and 30% in the "cool" versions.  You can 
see at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R260-BW-GS-Eps.pdf what the 
tones will be.  Even with "cool" in the midtones and "neutral" in the 
K position, the papers still print with a mild split tone.  (The UT-
RC 260 inkset is, otherwise, different from the UT14 -- different 
dilutions.)


I prefer the variable tone approach, particularly for glossy prints 
(where the 100% carbon is still too difficult to be a widely used 
approach).  With UT14 it's simple -- 40% color in the C channel, pure 
warm carbon in the M channel.  Software (curves and profiles) are 
much more flexible and easier to change than ink mixes.

A lot depends on whether you want to use the Epson driver.  I'm 
working from memory here, but I think the 1400 did not deliver a good 
dmax with just a single PK.  That's another reason why UT14 has, in 
effect, both a PK and PKN.

Below, it looks like you're a QTR user.  That helps.  QTR can deliver 
the load needed to get a very good dmax with UT14-C (the new PKN).


> I would use Glop as 
> the dilution mixer to minimize the gloss differential.

Yes, and the Epson driver usually works well with a mix of 30% the 
next darker ink and 70% glop.

>   I note with interest the idea of using Eboni in all 
> different dilutions, ...

Eboni is matte only.  PK and the color inks are the starting points 
for glossy inks.  The UT14-C is, in effect, a PKN with the correct 
mix of blue and cyan to give a relatively straight line response if 
desired.  Getting the cyan/blue (I prefer MIS R800 blue to its 
magenta) is tricky.  So, starting with this UT14-C ink is a simple 
way to know solve that problem.

 
> Any thoughts on an ideal Lustre B&W ink set.

UT14 assumed matte as an option would be desirable. Aside from that, 
it's going to be hard to beat.  Putting a more dilute ink in Y 
instead of glop might make a difference under a loupe, and glop is 
not as necessary with UT14 as it is with some other systems.  With 
QTR you can increase the number of dilutions and keep glop in there.  
Without a rip, you might run into a weak glossy dmax with only a 
single K.


> Regarding Glop, I have used it in the mix of lighter inks with
> some success on a 2200.   But I have never completely 
> eliminated gloss differential on the pure white areas in an 
> image.

>  I note that HP Z3100 series has a Glop channel and looking 
> at prints from that machine, gloss differential is entirely gone.

Although I can't say it's a perfect solution, glop does help, more so 
with some papers than others.  That's why its in UT14.

>  Using QTR, is  a reversed curve with the Glop channel the 
> right idea...so that it lays down 
> more glop on highlights including the paper white areas.  
> Has anyone experimented with  making Glop curves.  
> The only issue I see with doing this is not really knowing 
> if the ink channel is working, since it would be impossible 
> to see a nozzle check.  

I think QTR turns all channels off at the white point (255).  So, I 
think you have to start your image at 254.  I've never used QTR with 
glossy inks and glop, however.

Good luck with the project.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul

Thanks for the input.  I have a couple more questions.

1.  I have a bottle of PKN (part of a pint) that has expiration of later this year.  Is this the 
old PKN?  Is there a permanence issue here???

2.  PKN...from what I understood this is fine as the Black position, right???  I have used it 
successfully until now on a 2200...matter of fact I am currently using it as my dark black 
with Eboni on Matte paper and it works great.  But matte papers of course have a much 
lower gamut, so the split toning effect is hardly noticeable.

3.  So here is what I think would be a good starting point for my lustre set.  
Black -PKN  along with shades of Greys composed half the newer Cool Neutral ink you 
suggest as well as half 100 percent Carbon.  Am I on the right track here.  Sounds like this 
is what you suggest.  I would use MIS LK and LLK as the warm greys....which I have on 
hand.

4.  I like slightly split tone...matter of fact I consider it desireable.  Gives a visual depth as 
long as it is subtle.  So my thinking here is the PKN gives a subtle coolness to the deep 
blacks like Selenium toning.  Am I safe here, or should I buy a new black...I do not want to 
be using a black that has proven to be poor.  Is there a problem with PKN as black 
position???

5. On the Glop issue, if I manipulate my images so that the brightest highlights are 254, 
will I get sufficient glop to eliminate the Gloss differential?  Or should I dedicate a channel 
to Glop and use a reverse curve to lay a bunch of Glop on the highlights?

Thanks for you always helpful suggestions.

Phil Brouwer

Phil,

 
> 1.  I have a bottle of PKN (part of a pint) that has expiration 
> of later this year.  Is this the old PKN?

It is probably the old stuff.  I don't think MIS has ever sold the 
UT14-C as a PKN.

> Is there a permanence issue here???

No, it's just too cyan or green for the midtones, in my view.  Also, 
on the 1.5 pl printers, I think it's too heavy a load.  I've had 
(slight) clogging with the old PKs in both the 1800 and the 1400.  
The clogging has not been serious, but I pull back from any evidence 
of trouble, and I think there is such evidence with respect to the 
older PKs.  Use the K4-PK as the starting point, not MP-PK (aka old 
7600 PK).


> 2.  PKN...from what I understood this is fine as the 
> Black position, right??? 

See above.  It's based on the higher load, older PKs.  It might be 
fine, but if you see any evidence of clogging, pull it and go to 
either the UT14-C or one of the UT-RC (260) PK/PKNs.

> I have used it successfully until now on a 2200...

Which is an older printer.

I can't say for sure that there is a problem, so I don't like 
broadcasting potentially negative information that could be wrong or 
might be taken out of context as a warning that all MIS inks clog.  
But in my experiments with PKs on the 1800 and 1400, I think there is 
a reason Image Specialists backed off that high load PK for the newer 
printers.

> 3.  So here is what I think would be a good starting point 
> for my lustre set.  

> Black -PKN  along with shades of Greys composed half the 
> newer Cool Neutral ink you suggest as well as half 
> 100 percent Carbon.  Am I on the right track here. 

The RC-PKN is 20% color, which would be right what you want.  It gave 
a good, relatively cool-neutral black, but was a bit warm in the 
midtones.  Notice on page 5 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R260-
BW-GS-Eps.pdf that I used the RC-PKN for the black but RC-Cool 
midtones (30% color/carbon) and there was still a slight rise in the 
Lab B -- i.e., a subtle split tone.  That's why I went to 40% for the 
UT14-C.  (The old PKN was also a 40% color/60% carbon mix.)  40% is 
too much for most of the image, but in a variable tone inkset, where 
you want the 100% carbon jets firing also, the 40% mix worked out 
rather well.

So, depending on what you like, you may want to consider the 40% UT14-
C & LC mixes.

>  I would use MIS LK and LLK as the warm greys....which I have on 
> hand.

They'll work fine to control the coolness.  
 
> 4.  I like slightly split tone...matter of fact I consider 
> it desireable.  Gives a visual depth as 
> long as it is subtle.  

Even a 30% color/carbon gives a split tone on glossy papers.  I still 
think the 40%, blended with carbon to achieve your desired level of 
split tone, might be a better way to go.  Since you'll want to use 
both the carbon and cool inks, a 50-50 mix will give a split tone.  


> So my thinking here is the PKN gives a subtle coolness ..

"Subtle" and the old PKN ...? Hmm, where did I go wrong?

> to the deep blacks like Selenium toning.

Selenium, in my experience, tends to have a slightly elevated Lab A --
 not the cyan/green negative Lab A of the old PKN.

>  Am I safe here, or should I buy a new black...

Buy one of the new PKN versions.  RCN-PK is 20%, RCC-PK is 30%, 
(see http://www.inksupply.com/r260_blackandwhite.cfm )
and UT14-C ( http://www.inksupply.com/ut14_black_and_white.cfm ) is 
40%.

> Is there a problem with PKN as black position???

It's based on the old 7600 PKN (now called MP-PK), which may not be 
as reliable in new printers as the newer PKs based on K4-PK.

 
> 5. On the Glop issue, if I manipulate my images so that 
> the brightest highlights are 254, 
> will I get sufficient glop to eliminate the Gloss differential?
>  Or should I dedicate a channel to Glop and use a reverse 
> curve to lay a bunch of Glop on the highlights?

This is so dependent on the ink, paper, and one's subjective 
opinions, that it's hard to answer this question.  I thought glop was 
still needed with a sufficient number of papers to warrant including 
it in UT14, but it's a close call with some of the better papers.  
I'd suggest you start with a Glop channel and see if you really need 
it for the papers and ink mix you end up with.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've had 
> (slight) clogging with the old PKs in both the 1800 and the 1400.  
> The clogging has not been serious, but I pull back from any evidence 
> of trouble, and I think there is such evidence with respect to the 
> older PKs.  Use the K4-PK as the starting point, not MP-PK (aka old 
> 7600 PK).


Paul

I would think that if the PKs are tending to clog in the newer machines, does this hold true of 
Eboni as well?  Isn't Eboni the highest ink load?

Thanks for tips on the newer inks....makes sense.  But I have been on the assumption that 
1400 worked fine with Eboni and Matte paper.  Curious why the PK inks would be clogging, 
but I see your UT14 set includes Eboni.

Phil

> I would think that if the PKs are tending to clog in the 
> newer machines, 

Not all of them -- the MP-PK is the one that I'm suspicious is over 
the line.  (You can see why I'm reluctant to say too much.)

> does this hold true of Eboni as well?  

No, from my experience it's a combination of high load and binder -- 
the stuff needed to stick the pigs to the gloss papers.  Eboni and 
the other matte paper only inks can get by with very little 
(virtually no) binder on matte papers.  

> ... I have been on the assumption that 
> 1400 worked fine with Eboni and Matte paper. 

The 1400 and Eboni-6 are a very happy combination.

> Curious why the PK inks would be clogging, 
> but I see your UT14 set includes Eboni.

My conclusion is that it's a conbination of high load plus binder 
that makes an ink more prone to clogging.  Keep in mind that I want 
NO clogging at all.  So, if an old PK has a single gap in the nozzle 
check after sitting a week, and the new PK does not, and this looks 
like a pattern, then I'll simply avoid the older ink. I have a very 
low tolerance for clogs.  (Note that most of the recent problems I've 
seen reported are most likely air or foam in the head, not clogs.)

You might also note that Epson has moved the black ink to a position 
between the yellow and light and light cyan.  The Ks are probably 
best isolated from the other high load inks even on the parking pad. 

If I sense that there is a potential problem with an inkset, I don't 
want to be associated with it.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul

First an apology if I am beating this topic to death, but a couple more questions about 
choosing or creating my ideal lustre set.

My aim is Ilford Gold Fibre on 1400 using QTR.  My ideal tonality would move from Warm/ 
Neutral Shadows, Neutral Midtones and up to Cool/Neutral highlights.  

I note that on the UTRC set, there are 3 separate sets...warm, cool and neutral.  But my 
ideal set is not one temperature...I want a split.  I am also making the assumption that the 
UTRC set are greys...not the strong toner color of the earlier sets.  Since the gamma is so 
good on these lustre papers, seems like warm, cool or neutral shades are plenty strong 
without distinct color toners.

First, my assumption is that these UTRC sets each have same basic degree of color 
temperature with different dilutions....yes???

 So I am wondering if I could start with my black position one of the new PKneutral (black 
being presumably neutral), 2nd ink a warm dark grey, 3rd a neutral mid grey, and then 4th 
and 5th warm grey and cool grey toners and a glop as the 6th position.  I would rely on 
the ink overlap to create a transition and use the toners to smooth the transitions.

Does this sound like a reasonable idea?  If so, please advise how proportionally diluted 
each ink is in the UTRC set, since MIS does not show patches of these inks.    And are 
these inks diluted with glop?  Wondering from your earlier responses if I even need glop 
position if glop is in the toner positions if the lighter shades are diluted with glop.

If these are diluted with glop, then I assume I could buy a bottle of dark grey in 
warm,neutral and cool to make my own dilutions.

I am wanting to move away  from the old style  Light Cyan and Light Magenta toners 
towards a more subtle grey toner.   Seems like LC & LM are overkill on the lustre papers.

Does this approach make sense, assuming I want a subtle split tone.

Thanks for  you patience with my parade of questions.  

Phil

Phil,

>...more questions about choosing or creating my ideal lustre set.
> 
> My aim is Ilford Gold Fibre on 1400 using QTR.  
> My ideal tonality would move from Warm/Neutral Shadows, 
> Neutral Midtones and up to Cool/Neutral highlights.

See page 9 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf  This is 
rather like the approach LensWork magazine uses.

I thought you liked PKN and cool shadows.
 
> I note that on the UTRC set, there are 3 separate sets...
> warm, cool and neutral.  
> But my ideal set is not one temperature...I want a split.

Yes, you can do that by using different inks in different positions 
or having a variable tone inkset and using curves/profiles to control 
the tone.  For the R260, what I'd consider an entry level printer, I 
made the assumption most would prefer the easiest workflow.  The plug 
and play approach with no curves is easiest.  For the UT14, I assumed 
a more hands-one user who might want more control -- thus the 
variable tone.

>  I am also making the assumption that the 
> UTRC set are greys...not the strong toner color of the 
> earlier sets. 

Yes, most of the inksets I'm now recommending use gray inks that are 
easier to profile than are the strong toners.  It's hard to make a 
really bad print with these inksets.


> First, my assumption is that these UTRC sets each have 
> same basic degree of color 
> temperature with different dilutions....yes???

Yes.  There are 3 sets -- warm (100% carbon), neutral (20% color) and 
cool (30% color).  You can mix the sets.  

With the UT14 I kicked the color up to 40% because it's a variable 
tone where people will want both the cool and warm jets firing most 
of the time.  But, with both inksets available in bulk and both using 
the same toner (cyan-blue) mix, everyone has a broad range of inks 
that will all match and not have any weird color cross-overs.  As you 
can see from the charts at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf 
the mixes keep Lab A close to where the papers set it, but usually 
with just a slight rise.  In general, we don't seem to like any green 
tints in our prints.  So, Lab B is the main variable.


>  So I am wondering if I could start with my black position one 
> of the new PKneutral 

You'll note in my examples with the RC inkset I usualy used PKN.  
However, on glossy papers, this is usually slightly cool.

> 2nd ink a warm dark grey, 3rd a neutral mid grey, and then 4th 
> and 5th warm grey and cool grey toners and a glop as the 6th 
> position.  


Consider 2 profiles -- one warm and the other cool.  Then use the 
sliders to make whatever split tone you want.  Each profile would, of 
course, have the PKN and glop in it.  I assume you have a new QTR 
that has the sliders for highlights, midtones and shadows.  If not, 
download it and you'll see what I'm talking about.  I have not given 
this a try yet, but it looks like a nice way to play around with 
various split tones.  

If you want cool highlights, you better consider the UT14 cool inks 
there.  Aside from that, you're really going to just have to try it 
and see what happens.  It sounds like your warm channel -- LK and 
LLK - will be fine.  Your cool channel of RCN-PK, plus dilutions of 
the other PKNs mentioned and a glop will give you everything you need.

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Just be careful with the thickness of the paper you decide on. The 
1400 seems to take thinner paper than other printers. On 
bhphotovideocom it shows max thickness at 11.8 mi. On that site it 
also shows thickness for the papers it sells under "specifications"
~Mary
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brouwerkent" 
<philip@...> wrote:
>
> I have been thinking of buying a 1400 and dedicating it to printing 
on Lustre papers, ie 
> Ilford Gold Fibre and the like.
> 
> Since I am starting from scratch if I make up an ink set, I am 
wondering if PKN would a 
> suitable ink as a most neutral starting point for my black.  And I 
am wondering if PKN 
> would be similarly neutral when diluted for at least 3 other 
positions.   I would use Glop as 
> the dilution mixer to minimize the gloss differential.
> 
>   I note with interest the idea of using Eboni in all different 
dilutions, and so am wondering 
> if Paul or others have tried diluting PKN for lustre papers.  I 
know it is a nice cool neutral 
> as a black.
> 
> Any thoughts on an ideal Lustre B&W ink set.
> 
> ---
> 
> Regarding Glop, I have used it in the mix of lighter inks with some 
success on a 2200.  
> But I have never completely eliminated gloss differential on the 
pure white areas in an 
> image.  I note that HP Z3100 series has a Glop channel and looking 
at prints from that 
> machine, gloss differential is entirely gone.
> 
>  Using QTR, is  a reversed curve with the Glop channel the right 
idea...so that it lays down 
> more glop on highlights including the paper white areas.  Has 
anyone experimented with 
> making Glop curves.  The only issue I see with doing this is not 
really knowing if the ink 
> channel is working, since it would be impossible to see a nozzle 
check.  Ideas, anyone????   

> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Phil
>

Think of the 1400 as a glossy color printer; that's it's specialty,  
and doesn't involve thick stock. It's the pigment printers that get  
used for fine art media and for B&W, and need more thickness range.

C. D. Tobie
WW Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
DataColor.com
CDTobie@...

On Aug 24, 2008, at 3:42 PM, "m_misiaszek" <m_misiaszek@yahoo.com>  
wrote:

> Just be careful with the thickness of the paper you decide on. The
> 1400 seems to take thinner paper than other printers. On
> bhphotovideocom it shows max thickness at 11.8 mi. On that site it
> also shows thickness for the papers it sells under "specifications"
> ~Mary
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "brouwerkent"
> <philip@...> wrote:
>>
>> I have been thinking of buying a 1400 and dedicating it to printing
> on Lustre papers, ie
>> Ilford Gold Fibre and the like.
>>
>> Since I am starting from scratch if I make up an ink set, I am
> wondering if PKN would a
>> suitable ink as a most neutral starting point for my black.  And I
> am wondering if PKN
>> would be similarly neutral when diluted for at least 3 other
> positions.   I would use Glop as
>> the dilution mixer to minimize the gloss differential.
>>
>>  I note with interest the idea of using Eboni in all different
> dilutions, and so am wondering
>> if Paul or others have tried diluting PKN for lustre papers.  I
> know it is a nice cool neutral
>> as a black.
>>
>> Any thoughts on an ideal Lustre B&W ink set.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Regarding Glop, I have used it in the mix of lighter inks with some
> success on a 2200.
>> But I have never completely eliminated gloss differential on the
> pure white areas in an
>> image.  I note that HP Z3100 series has a Glop channel and looking
> at prints from that
>> machine, gloss differential is entirely gone.
>>
>> Using QTR, is  a reversed curve with the Glop channel the right
> idea...so that it lays down
>> more glop on highlights including the paper white areas.  Has
> anyone experimented with
>> making Glop curves.  The only issue I see with doing this is not
> really knowing if the ink
>> channel is working, since it would be impossible to see a nozzle
> check.  Ideas, anyone????
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>
>
>
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