Digital BW, The Print

I am experimenting with the R1800 3MK approach. At this time I have 
installed the full MIS R1800 color set but have used K4 for PK. I 
want to try both 3Mk and 3Pk as well as some MK and PK dilutions. 

However I have hit a snag from the get go. After many cleaning cycles 
I have finally got a good test pattern on all nozzles. However when 
printing a color image from PS I can see distinct banding in the 
shadow areas. It is very noticeable.

I then run QTR in calibration mode and I am seeing banding 
(horizontal) on all colors (incl MK and PK) from around 50% loading 
onwards.

I have undertaken a head alignment but no improvement.

Anyone have any suggestions for getting rid of banding with MIS inks 
or is my printer a dud? I see no point in going further with this 
approach on this particular printer unless I can resolve this.

All and any input appreciated!

regards

Alistair

I usually see banding with the 1800 when only one ink is firing.  The 
main reason for the 3-MK was that the 1800 needed 3 inks to be firing 
to hide the banding.  A few people have had to go to 3 MKs to hide 
their banding problems.

Frankly, I just put my 1800 in mothballs.  I think I'm done with that 
printer and those carts.  The newer 1400 does not microband 
significantly and has better carts -- totally spongeless.  The latest 
problem with the MIS 1800 carts is that the sponge that is in the air 
inlet appears to deteriorate with Eboni-6, turning it green.  
Enough.  No more 1800 recommendations aside from the 3-MK workflow, 
and even there I'd recommend to those who do not have an 1800 to 
avoid them.  My 1400 was cheaper and does a better job.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "hp9180profile" 
<owens@...> wrote:
>
> I am experimenting with the R1800 3MK approach. At this time I have 
> installed the full MIS R1800 color set but have used K4 for PK. I 
> want to try both 3Mk and 3Pk as well as some MK and PK dilutions. 
> 
> However I have hit a snag from the get go. After many cleaning 
cycles 
> I have finally got a good test pattern on all nozzles. However when 
> printing a color image from PS I can see distinct banding in the 
> shadow areas. It is very noticeable.
> 
> I then run QTR in calibration mode and I am seeing banding 
> (horizontal) on all colors (incl MK and PK) from around 50% loading 
> onwards.
> 
> I have undertaken a head alignment but no improvement.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions for getting rid of banding with MIS 
inks 

> or is my printer a dud? I see no point in going further with this 
> approach on this particular printer unless I can resolve this.
> 
> All and any input appreciated!
> 
> regards
> 
> Alistair
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> Enough.  No more 1800 recommendations aside from the 3-MK workflow, 
> and even there I'd recommend to those who do not have an 1800 to 
> avoid them.  My 1400 was cheaper and does a better job.
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 

OK, thanks for your reply Paul.

regards

Alistair

Paul,

> The newer 1400 does not microband 
> significantly and has better carts -- totally spongeless.

Are the 1400 carts refillable by the user?

> The latest 
> problem with the MIS 1800 carts is that the sponge that is in the air 
> inlet appears to deteriorate with Eboni-6, turning it green.  

I'm using 3-MK, not Eboni-6, in the MIS carts. (the five color
positions contain OEM Epson with MIS cleaning fluid). Will I
eventually have this green problem? Have refilled these, oh, maybe 3
or 4 times, I'm just getting started.

Thanks!

Paul

"Paul Whiting" wrote:

> 
> > The newer 1400 does not microband 
> > significantly and has better carts -- totally spongeless.
> 
> Are the 1400 carts refillable by the user?

Yes, the 1400 carts are refillable.  So far (knocking on simulated 
wood) I've had no defective valves or other issues with them.  I do, 
however, dislike the auto-reset chips.  However, they work and, 
again, don't have the high defect rates of the older chips & carts.


> > The latest problem with the MIS 1800 carts is that the 
> > sponge that is in the air inlet appears to deteriorate 
> > with Eboni-6, turning it green.  
> 

> I'm using 3-MK, not Eboni-6, in the MIS carts. (the five color
> positions contain OEM Epson with MIS cleaning fluid). Will I
> eventually have this green problem? Have refilled these, oh, maybe 3
> or 4 times, I'm just getting started.

I have seen no problems with 100% Eboni in the 1800 carts.  That's 
why the 3-MK is still a recommended approach.  I also have seen no 
problems with MIS color inks in these carts. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"pr_roark" wrote:

> I have seen no problems with 100% Eboni in the 1800 carts.  That's 
> why the 3-MK is still a recommended approach.  I also have seen no 
> problems with MIS color inks in these carts.

One more clarification, please: When MIS calls their carts
"spongeless", they are not _totally_ spongeless, right? I assume you
were talking about the same spongeless carts from MIS that I'm using -
BUT there's still a sponge at the air intake? I didn't think that had
any direct contact with the ink.

Thanks again... been getting some beautiful prints, by the way, on
that Lasal paper and the .qdif/.quad file from your website. Thanks
again for that file.

Paul W.

...
> 
> One more clarification, please: When MIS calls their carts
> "spongeless", they are not _totally_ spongeless, right? ...

> BUT there's still a sponge at the air intake? I didn't think that had
> any direct contact with the ink.

The "spongeless" MIS 1800 carts do have a small sponge in the air inlet 
path.  This sponge does interact with the inks.  It works fine for most 
inks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"pr_roark" wrote:

> The "spongeless" MIS 1800 carts do have a small sponge in the air inlet 
> path.  This sponge does interact with the inks.  It works fine for most 
> inks.

Hmm, must be something in the base that MIS uses for this ink-set.

Thanks, as always,

Paul W.

Paul, I wish I'd known you felt that way three months ago. After a year of saving up for an 
1800 I am pretty disappointed.

Sarah


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
> I usually see banding with the 1800 when only one ink is firing.  The 
> main reason for the 3-MK was that the 1800 needed 3 inks to be firing 
> to hide the banding.  A few people have had to go to 3 MKs to hide 
> their banding problems.
> 
> Frankly, I just put my 1800 in mothballs.  I think I'm done with that 
> printer and those carts.  The newer 1400 does not microband 
> significantly and has better carts -- totally spongeless.  The latest 
> problem with the MIS 1800 carts is that the sponge that is in the air 
> inlet appears to deteriorate with Eboni-6, turning it green.  
> Enough.  No more 1800 recommendations aside from the 3-MK workflow, 
> and even there I'd recommend to those who do not have an 1800 to 
> avoid them.  My 1400 was cheaper and does a better job.
> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "hp9180profile" 
> <owens@> wrote:
> >
> > I am experimenting with the R1800 3MK approach. At this time I have 
> > installed the full MIS R1800 color set but have used K4 for PK. I 
> > want to try both 3Mk and 3Pk as well as some MK and PK dilutions. 
> > 
> > However I have hit a snag from the get go. After many cleaning 
> cycles 
> > I have finally got a good test pattern on all nozzles. However when 
> > printing a color image from PS I can see distinct banding in the 
> > shadow areas. It is very noticeable.
> > 
> > I then run QTR in calibration mode and I am seeing banding 
> > (horizontal) on all colors (incl MK and PK) from around 50% loading 
> > onwards.
> > 
> > I have undertaken a head alignment but no improvement.
> > 
> > Anyone have any suggestions for getting rid of banding with MIS 
> inks 
> > or is my printer a dud? I see no point in going further with this 
> > approach on this particular printer unless I can resolve this.
> > 
> > All and any input appreciated!
> > 
> > regards
> > 
> > Alistair
> >
>

Sarah,


>
> Paul, I wish I'd known you felt that way three months ago. 
> After a year of saving up for an 1800 I am pretty disappointed.

Many are using the 1800 very successfully with color and with the 3-MK 
B&W approach, as well as others.  It has always been subject to some 
microbanding, but if multiple inks are used, they hide the problem.  
The 1800 Eb6-cart issue just cropped up -- it takes a while to show 
up.  I assume a spongeless CIS would avoid that problem.  I make 
mention of problems as soon as I find them.

As with any high tech product, the best of today will be obsolete 
tomorrow. You just can't worry about it. I'm still using an "ancient" 
7500.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Renkes" 
<sagaface@...> wrote:
>
> Paul, I wish I'd known you felt that way three months ago. After a 
year of saving up for an 
> 1800 I am pretty disappointed.
> 
> Sarah


The r800 and r1800 are great printers for 3-mk. They print fast 
compared to the 1400.

Plus, the d-max is a little higher with the 3-mk compared to the 1400.

What I like about the 1400 is; the price (on sale for about $160) and 
it uses on one MK. Less to worry about. The spongeless, auto re-set 
carts are a plus.

Scott

"Sarah Renkes"  wrote:
>
> Paul, I wish I'd known you felt that way three months ago. After a
year of saving up for an 
> 1800 I am pretty disappointed.
> 
> Sarah

Sarah,

I had a little "buyer's remorse" myself, right after I got my 1800, it
seemed, the 1400 came out. But Paul and Scott both make good points.
And probably soon after the 1400 gets well-established, something
better will come along! Seems to be the case, as Paul said, it's the
nature of the rapid technological change we live in. And I was
encouraged by Scott's comments on Dmax and speed in the 1800.

The way I look at it now, might as well get comfortable with my
current setup, learn all I can, and then perhaps move along to the
next step... it may be something much better eventually.

Paul

I don't think either of you should have buyer's remorse. Something did come along, the 
1900, which I have been playing with, and my 1400 is going on ebay soon.
The right 1400 could very well drive you to near suicide with it's paper feeding. It is 
designed for thinner papers, given the inkset, something David Tobie said which put a 
light bulb over my dim brain.
You can make it work, but some people had theirs replaced, and the rest of us learned to 
constantly clean the paper advance mechanism to keep it working. So far the 1900 is 
working, but it looks like a very similar advance system to me, with no paper thickness 
adjustment like the old printers.
The fact is, even though in this economy every penny is felt, we are taking pretty cheap 
mechanisms that have a product life of a year, and a user life of maybe 5, and using them 
in ways for which they were not intended.
It's a crap shoot anyway. So as Tim Gunn says- make it work.
Your 1800 that is.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting" 
<paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

>
> "Sarah Renkes"  wrote:
> >
> > Paul, I wish I'd known you felt that way three months ago. After a
> year of saving up for an 
> > 1800 I am pretty disappointed.
> > 
> > Sarah
> 
> Sarah,
> 
> I had a little "buyer's remorse" myself, right after I got my 1800, it
> seemed, the 1400 came out. But Paul and Scott both make good points.
> And probably soon after the 1400 gets well-established, something
> better will come along! Seems to be the case, as Paul said, it's the
> nature of the rapid technological change we live in. And I was
> encouraged by Scott's comments on Dmax and speed in the 1800.
> 
> The way I look at it now, might as well get comfortable with my
> current setup, learn all I can, and then perhaps move along to the
> next step... it may be something much better eventually.
> 
> Paul
>

Remember Sarah, the guy who made that comment has an insatiable desire to
constantly push what you can do with an inkjet printer, to our tremendous
benefit.  What may not entirely satisfy Paul would probably make most of us
jump up and down with joy to be able to do!  You gotta cut these
perfectionists some slack sometimes!  (I mean this only as a complement to
Paul Roark.)

 

Also, there are sources of totally sponge-free refillable carts for the
R1800.  I have some but I'm not sure where I get them as I've had them a
while.  Others may know and post it to this thread.

 

 

 

Bob

bob@...

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Encouraging and practical comments, from all of you. Certainly what I put out for the 
r1800 is nothing to what I paid for my Canon 1Ds five years ago, which is now almost 
obsolete as well. At the time I purchased it I had the $$ and the assumption it would be 
my last camera if I took good care of it. Well, I have, but it's clearly not.  The 5D Mark II 
looks like the answer to all my current camera gripes....but so did the 1DS at the time it 
came out. Such a cash outlay is no longer possible for me, so I'll make do with the 1Ds, 
knowing that when I'm ready for another I will A) never spend as much as I did for the 1Ds 
even if I have the $$, and B) understand that just because the technology is out there 
doesn't mean I need it (want is a separate issue!).

thanks for the good words...
Sarah


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think either of you should have buyer's remorse. Something did come along, the 
> 1900, which I have been playing with, and my 1400 is going on ebay soon.
> The right 1400 could very well drive you to near suicide with it's paper feeding. It is 
> designed for thinner papers, given the inkset, something David Tobie said which put a 
> light bulb over my dim brain.
> You can make it work, but some people had theirs replaced, and the rest of us learned 
to 
> constantly clean the paper advance mechanism to keep it working. So far the 1900 is 
> working, but it looks like a very similar advance system to me, with no paper thickness 
> adjustment like the old printers.
> The fact is, even though in this economy every penny is felt, we are taking pretty cheap 
> mechanisms that have a product life of a year, and a user life of maybe 5, and using 
them 

> in ways for which they were not intended.
> It's a crap shoot anyway. So as Tim Gunn says- make it work.
> Your 1800 that is.
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Whiting" 
> <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >
> > "Sarah Renkes"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Paul, I wish I'd known you felt that way three months ago. After a
> > year of saving up for an 
> > > 1800 I am pretty disappointed.
> > > 
> > > Sarah
> > 
> > Sarah,
> > 
> > I had a little "buyer's remorse" myself, right after I got my 1800, it
> > seemed, the 1400 came out. But Paul and Scott both make good points.
> > And probably soon after the 1400 gets well-established, something
> > better will come along! Seems to be the case, as Paul said, it's the
> > nature of the rapid technological change we live in. And I was
> > encouraged by Scott's comments on Dmax and speed in the 1800.
> > 
> > The way I look at it now, might as well get comfortable with my
> > current setup, learn all I can, and then perhaps move along to the
> > next step... it may be something much better eventually.
> > 
> > Paul
> >
>

Just to clarify, the issue I have (and the reason I started this 
thread) is with the MIS R1800 inkset (5 colors, eboni, PK and GLOP) NOT 
the R1800 printer itself. With the Epson R1800 OEM inks I get 
absolutely no banding on any colors at all. With the MIS inks all 8 
channels (colors) band.

The problem is with the MIS R1800 inset on gloss paper, not the 
printer. The printer is fine. 

From the work Paul has done we also know that it works very well with 
the 3MK approach. So it does two things well - run OEM inks and 3Mk 
which is one more than Epson ever promised us it would.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "hp9180profile" 
<owens@...> wrote:
>
> Just to clarify, the issue I have (and the reason I started this 
> thread) is with the MIS R1800 inkset (5 colors, eboni, PK and GLOP) 
NOT 
> the R1800 printer itself. With the Epson R1800 OEM inks I get 
> absolutely no banding on any colors at all. With the MIS inks all 8 
> channels (colors) band.
> 
> The problem is with the MIS R1800 inset on gloss paper, not the 
> printer. The printer is fine. 
> 
> From the work Paul has done we also know that it works very well with 
> the 3MK approach. So it does two things well - run OEM inks and 3Mk 
> which is one more than Epson ever promised us it would.
>


Can you print a good nozzle check pattern? 

Does it band when printing in 3-MK mode?

My r800 prints beautifully in 3-MK mode, but the carts don't work in 
color mode.

Have you tried letting the printer (powered on) set overnight and then 
trying to print?

Cleaning cycles just make the situation worse when using after-market 
carts.

Usually the 'missing nozzle problem' is actually just trapped  air and 
not clogged nozzles.

I, like Paul Roark, am find that Eboni (Image Specialists) ink doesn't 
clogg.

I leave my 1400 powered 'on' constantly. Sometimes it'll sit for 2 
weeks without being used, and it will print a perfect nozzle check 
pattern.

Scott

"Tyler Boley" wrote:

Thanks, Tyler, that was helpful. "Make it work" is right...Actually,
my setup is working quite well. I'm very pleased with the results,
although what looks great to me may not be up to what is now possible.
As someone else said, Paul's standards may be somewhat higher than
those of some of us. (I mean that as a compliment, too! His high
standards benefit us all.) I'm quite happy with my results using 3MK
(the color cart positions I've filled with MIS cleaning fluid in the
OEM carts using the MIS OEM refill kit - very economical). And I can
refill the MIS spongeless carts with the Eboni ink very economically
as well.

Who is Tim Gunn, by the way?

Regards,

Paul W.

> I don't think either of you should have buyer's remorse. Something
did come along, the 
> 1900, which I have been playing with, and my 1400 is going on ebay soon.
> The right 1400 could very well drive you to near suicide with it's
paper feeding. It is 
> designed for thinner papers, given the inkset, something David Tobie
said which put a 
> light bulb over my dim brain.
> You can make it work, but some people had theirs replaced, and the
rest of us learned to 
> constantly clean the paper advance mechanism to keep it working. So
far the 1900 is 
> working, but it looks like a very similar advance system to me, with
no paper thickness 
> adjustment like the old printers.
> The fact is, even though in this economy every penny is felt, we are
taking pretty cheap 
> mechanisms that have a product life of a year, and a user life of
maybe 5, and using them 

> in ways for which they were not intended.
> It's a crap shoot anyway. So as Tim Gunn says- make it work.
> Your 1800 that is.
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/

I had the same issue with a refurb R1800.  Worked great with OEM inks,
banded in most channels with MIS.  

Then it started banding with the OEM inks, too and it was uncorrectable.  

Epson did replace it and my new R1800 works fine for MIS color or OEM
color.

It may also be the carts- try the OEM refill kit (be sure to buy a
clamp, to hold the carts down) with MIS ink to remove that variable.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "hp9180profile"
<owens@...> wrote:

>
> Just to clarify, the issue I have (and the reason I started this 
> thread) is with the MIS R1800 inkset (5 colors, eboni, PK and GLOP) NOT 
> the R1800 printer itself. With the Epson R1800 OEM inks I get 
> absolutely no banding on any colors at all. With the MIS inks all 8 
> channels (colors) band.
> 
> The problem is with the MIS R1800 inset on gloss paper, not the 
> printer. The printer is fine. 
> 
> From the work Paul has done we also know that it works very well with 
> the 3MK approach. So it does two things well - run OEM inks and 3Mk 
> which is one more than Epson ever promised us it would.
>

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@...> wrote:
 
 
> Can you print a good nozzle check pattern? 

Yes, I get a perfect nozzle pattern on all channels



> Does it band when printing in 3-MK mode?

I have not tried. My interest is smooth neutral prints on gloss and 
semi gloss. I was going to start with a full MIS inkset, get that 
dialled in and then starting to play with dilutions of PK or straight 
3-PK. Have not got past first base once I saw how bad the straight 
MIS inkset bands. Also, I was surprise how warm the MIS PK is 
compared to the Epson PK. I appreciate that may be because of the 
high carbon content of MIS PK but it looks like it will be tricky 
getting neutral prints out of that ink. As you may gather, I am 
rather underwhelmed with the MIS inkset!



> Have you tried letting the printer (powered on) set overnight and 
>then trying to print?

Yes, it makes no difference.



> Cleaning cycles just make the situation worse when using after-
>market carts.

I am refilling OEM cartridges, not using aftermarket.


> I, like Paul Roark, am find that Eboni (Image Specialists) ink 
>doesn't clogg.

So far none of my MIS inks are clogging, but they all band on gloss 
paper.

 
> Scott

Thanks for your comments and suggestions Scott.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" 
<rsmith02@...> wrote:


> I had the same issue with a refurb R1800.  Worked great with OEM 
>inks, banded in most channels with MIS.  

Yes, that is what is happenning with mine.


> Then it started banding with the OEM inks, too and it was 
>uncorrectable.  

Oh Gawd. 


> Epson did replace it and my new R1800 works fine for MIS color or 
>OEM color.

What papers do you use? I find the MIS inkset to look rather 
agricultural on gloss papers. Have not tried it on others. It does 
seem to have less bronzing than OEM though.


> It may also be the carts- try the OEM refill kit (be sure to buy a
> clamp, to hold the carts down) with MIS ink to remove that variable.
 
I am using refilled OEMs. 

Thanks for your comments and suggestions Roger.

regards

Alistair

> > Epson did replace it and my new R1800 works fine for MIS color or 
> >OEM color.
> 
> What papers do you use? I find the MIS inkset to look rather 
> agricultural on gloss papers. Have not tried it on others. It does 
> seem to have less bronzing than OEM though.

I don't think I've seen "agricultural" used to describe a print before : )

I think it looks great on Harman FB Al- the inks just seem to blend
into the paper.  I also like it on Epson Premium semi-gloss.  It's
fine on Silver Rag and Innova White Semi-Matte 300- they are more
card-stock looking papers.

I also really like it on Innova Smooth White 315 matte paper.

Tim Gunn is one of the host of a TV show called "Project Runway" on 
Bravo channel. "Make it work" is one of the lines he uses frequently.

Pat K.
Juneau, AK

______________________________________



>Who is Tim Gunn, by the way?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" 
<rsmith02@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I think it looks great on Harman FB Al- the inks just seem to blend
> into the paper.  I also like it on Epson Premium semi-gloss.  It's
> fine on Silver Rag and Innova White Semi-Matte 300- they are more
> card-stock looking papers.
> 
> I also really like it on Innova Smooth White 315 matte paper.
>

Thanks Roger, I have some Harman FB AL and Epson PSG so will try those 
first.

regards

Alistair