Digital BW, The Print

I want to thank you guys for your advice thus far. I started looking into  the Eizo. It seems available only online and I don't want to blindly buy something I've never seen nor tried. I also thought about the Samsung but remember using one years ago and hating how I lost so much detail in the blacks but maybe technology has changed since.

Funny, though, I noticed that no one here as mentioned Apple's cinema displays at all. Are they that bad or is it just a matter of expense? I plan on taking a CD of some of my images to the Apple store to check it out but if there is a lot of opposing to that, I'd like to know what it's about.

One last thing - how cumbersome is using a laptop with a separate monitor? It seems like the laptop screen might get in the way. How do you set it up for use? 

By the way, this is just for my home studio.

Thank you again for all your advice.

AnnMarie

On Mar 30, 2009, at 12:26 PM, AnnMarie Tornabene wrote:

> Funny, though, I noticed that no one here as mentioned Apple's  
> cinema displays at all. Are they that bad or is it just a matter of  
> expense? I plan on taking a CD of some of my images to the Apple  
> store to check it out but if there is a lot of opposing to that, I'd  
> like to know what it's about.
>
> One last thing - how cumbersome is using a laptop with a separate  
> monitor? It seems like the laptop screen might get in the way. How  
> do you set it up for use?

Well, if the laptop in question is a new MacBook Pro, and the separate  
display is an LED backlit Cinema 24, then its a very slick  
combination, and a very reasonable solution for portability with a  
bigger/better display when in the Studio.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AnneMarie,

I use an Apple Cinema 20" monitor with a Macbook pro.  I cannot comment on the relative quality of the monitor, but it is very easy to use an external monitor with a Mac.  You simply connect the monitor to the laptop and then after the screen shows the connection, close the top of the Macbook and let it go to sleep.  If you then wake it with a mouse or external keyboard, it comes up on the monitor.

It is also possible to use both but I have not seen a reason to do so with PS.

Steve

> 
> I want to thank you guys for your advice thus far. I started looking into  the Eizo. It seems available only online and I don't want to blindly buy something I've never seen nor tried. I also thought about the Samsung but remember using one years ago and hating how I lost so much detail in the blacks but maybe technology has changed since.
> 
> Funny, though, I noticed that no one here as mentioned Apple's cinema displays at all. Are they that bad or is it just a matter of expense? I plan on taking a CD of some of my images to the Apple store to check it out but if there is a lot of opposing to that, I'd like to know what it's about.
> 
> One last thing - how cumbersome is using a laptop with a separate monitor? It seems like the laptop screen might get in the way. How do you set it up for use? 
> 
> By the way, this is just for my home studio.
> 
> Thank you again for all your advice.
> 
> AnnMarie
>

On 30/03/09 10:26 AM, "AnnMarie Tornabene" <faeofavalon@...> wrote:
>
> One last thing - how cumbersome is using a laptop with a separate monitor? It
> seems like the laptop screen might get in the way. How do you set it up for
> use? 

I use a LaCie Blue IV (22") with my MacBook Pro. I place Photoshop menus on
the MacBook screen and the image I'm editing on the LaCie. You can of course
do it all on one screen, but this approach gives me a lot of versatility.
Dual monitors are also handy for a number of other things.

Terry.

Dear  AnneMarie,

I owned an Apple Cinema Display for many years, but the monitor became
unusable in its fourth year, and I replaced the monitor with an Eizo CG241W.
If you care about DDC compliant monitors, you might consider the Ezio, but
pay specific attention to their warranty statement, since their warranty is
great but stringent. Many users might argue that the calibration software
that comes with the monitor is good, but I still prefer to use a quality
third party application for that task. The Eizo monitor is fabulous...

The Apple Cinema Display performed admirably, while calibrated with
ColorEyes Software, and although I did not repurchase a new Apple LED
monitor, a new Samsung XL24, or a new Lacie 724, I decided to wait until the
latest LED monitors mature with age, along with the required calibration
software. LED monitors will become the next monitor generation quickly.

ColorEyes calibration software will support the newer LED monitors from
Samsung and Lacie, and the LED Eizo when it appears, but it was my choice to
wait for two or three years until the LED technology matures. These LED
monitors are DDC compliant, where the software calibrates the monitor¹s
onboard hardware, allowing the computer¹s video card to simply push the
pixels to the DDC compliant monitor.

The Apple display monitor will perform well, but as you know, you will
require a good calibration tool, to allow the monitor to perform better. The
Apple monitor is not DDC compliant, therefore, the calibration software will
tweak your computer¹s video card to adjust the monitor, accordingly.

One last item that many folks do not know, and should know, is that Apple
inadvertently broke the DDC compliant protocol with OSX 10.5.6, so do not
use any DDC compliant monitor with that version of OSX. It just won¹t work.
You can use a DDC compliant monitor with OSX up to 10.5.5, where a fix is
expected in 10.5.7 and, or Snow Leopard.

It should also be noted that OSX 10.5.2 and greater, while using a DDC
compliant monitor with OSX¹s screen saver, causes your DDC compliant profile
to become disconnected, but that issue is easily reconciled by using the LUT
Loader in your Mac after the screen saver is finished. These issues do not
occur while using an Apple monitor since the monitor is not DDC compliant.

The calibrated Apple monitor will perform well, and within budget, but a
calibrated DDC compliant monitor is rather stunning...

jim k



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mar 30, 2009, at 9:10 PM, jim kitchen wrote:

> The calibrated Apple monitor will perform well, and within budget,  
> but a
> calibrated DDC compliant monitor is rather stunning...

Well, if the display itself is more stunning than yes; but beyond that  
DDC is convenient, and might offer finer degrees of adjustment on a  
some controls on certain displays, thats about it; its simply an  
automated way to adjust display controls. Expect convenience, not magic.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear David,

A calibrated DDC compliant monitor is magic, compared to not, or did you
totally miss my point?

jim k



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have several calibrated DDC compliant displays here; they range from  
less "magic" than a Cinema display, to significantly more even and  
neutral than a Cinema display... whether they are calibrated via DDC  
or not. Are you simply referring to the automation when you say "magic"?

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Mar 31, 2009, at 7:51 PM, jim kitchen <jim.kitchen@...> wrote:

> Dear David,
>
> A calibrated DDC compliant monitor is magic, compared to not, or did  
> you
> totally miss my point?
>
> jim k
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNE 
> R‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Dear David,

My original term was stunning, where I added the term magic to compliment
your response. I am referring specifically to my DDC monitor's ability to
perform, and for the moment, I believe my calibrated DDC compliant monitor
adds significant value to my digital process, compared to a non DDC
compliant monitor. Unfortunately, I do not have several monitors to choose
from nor do I desire to be in that position, because incremental choices
would drive me crazy. Although, if I added several calibrated monitors to
the equation, whether the monitors were DDC compliant or not, I would
probably see which monitor I would never use, quickly.

That said, everyone has their own approach to determine what they might
consider acceptable, qualified by their own budget, purpose, and selective
calibration equipment, where I am no different, so I decided to compare
several calibrated non DDC monitors to two differently priced DDC EIZO
monitors, before I exercised my final purchase. I chose one EIZO over the
other monitors for several value added reasons, such as the monitor's
accuracy, the quality of the shadow detail, the monitor's uniformity, and a
price point I considered to be reasonable. The non DDC monitors looked
pleasant, but when I compared the final printed image to the calibrated DDC
EIZO; my choice became very clear.

Lastly, my new monitor adheres to the DDC protocol, compared to not,
allowing my calibration software to talk properly to the monitor during a
calibration event, which physically removes the quality of my video card,
and the associated video drivers from the calibration equation. I currently
have a new tool that adds value to my digital process, until this monitor
expires... :)

jim k



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jim kitchen schreef:

> Lastly, my new monitor adheres to the DDC protocol, compared to not,
> allowing my calibration software to talk properly to the monitor during a
> calibration event, which physically removes the quality of my video card,
> and the associated video drivers from the calibration equation. I currently
> have a new tool that adds value to my digital process, until this monitor
> expires... :)
> 
> jim k

Is there any theoretical difference possible in calibration quality 
between a monitor + a puck + the software guiding/backfeeding the user 
to adjust the monitor settings and the same monitor + a puck cooperating 
with the software to adjust the monitor settings automatically ? The 
same monitor specs, 8 or 10 bits in both cases The user takes the time 
to go back and forth between contrast, RGB and brightness adjustments to 
get the best result.

After that in both cases the videocard profile is created without user 
interference.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:22 AM, jim kitchen wrote:

> My original term was stunning, where I added the term magic to  
> compliment
> your response. I am referring specifically to my DDC monitor's  
> ability to
> perform, and for the moment, I believe my calibrated DDC compliant  
> monitor
> adds significant value to my digital process, compared to a non DDC
> compliant monitor. Unfortunately, I do not have several monitors to  
> choose
> from nor do I desire to be in that position, because incremental  
> choices
> would drive me crazy. Although, if I added several calibrated  
> monitors to
> the equation, whether the monitors were DDC compliant or not, I would
> probably see which monitor I would never use, quickly.

Absolutely true. I also have, oh something like 55 or 60 models of  
printers here to choose from, which is enough to drive anyone crazy,  
but there only a few that are "go to" printers for me, so that, for a  
certain type of media, size, and image type, I think of one or two of  
them as the printer I would go to. The other fifty or so models just  
gather dust, if there isn't testing to be done on them.

Oddly, I have a $7000 wide gamut Eizo, with beautiful evenness and  
smoothness and tons of DDC capabilities, sitting next to a 30 inch  
Cinema display, which has a smaller color gamut, a slightly grainy  
surface, and less evenness overall (and virtually no controls), and  
yet I "go to" the Cinema for much of my image editing; its bigger, I  
can see more pixels at once... <G>

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well then you should get rid of that Eizo, need my FEDEX number?
:)

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Apr 1, 2009, at 9:58 AM, C D Tobie wrote:

> Oddly, I have a $7000 wide gamut Eizo, with beautiful evenness and
> smoothness and tons of DDC capabilities, sitting next to a 30 inch
> Cinema display, which has a smaller color gamut, a slightly grainy
> surface, and less evenness overall (and virtually no controls), and
> yet I "go to" the Cinema for much of my image editing; its bigger, I
> can see more pixels at once... <G>
>
> C. David Tobie



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hey,
i can pick it up...  are you still in Maine?

be there in just a few hours!!


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:

>
> Well then you should get rid of that Eizo, need my FEDEX number?
> :)
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Apr 1, 2009, at 9:58 AM, C D Tobie wrote:
> 
> > Oddly, I have a $7000 wide gamut Eizo, with beautiful evenness and
> > smoothness and tons of DDC capabilities, sitting next to a 30 inch
> > Cinema display, which has a smaller color gamut, a slightly grainy
> > surface, and less evenness overall (and virtually no controls), and
> > yet I "go to" the Cinema for much of my image editing; its bigger, I
> > can see more pixels at once... <G>
> >
> > C. David Tobie
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Apr 1, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Jon Cone wrote:

> hey,
> i can pick it up...  are you still in Maine?
>
> be there in just a few hours!!

I think it may already be taken... sorry! <G>

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Or you could, for just $4999, get one of the new 30" EIZO ColorEdge CG301W
that supports the same 2500 x 1600 resolution and has the Eizo goodness
- internal hardware LUT controls + brightness stability etc.

Personally I took the cheap option and upgraded my graphics card for $100 to
allow me to leverage the CS4 hardware zoom on my existing lower res Eizo.
Works great.

Mike
2009/4/1 C D Tobie <CDTobie@...>

>
> On Apr 1, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>
> > hey,
> > i can pick it up... are you still in Maine?
> >
> > be there in just a few hours!!
>
> I think it may already be taken... sorry! <G>
>
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@... <CDTobie%40datacolor.com>
>
> ----------
>
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear David,

Now you tell us... :)

jim k

>I think it may already be taken... sorry!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Ernst,

I am sorry, but I do not understand your question, or comment...

Are you asking whether a manual calibration approach, could be as good as,
or equal to a software calibration approach?

jim k



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That is how I understood the question, and if so, the answer would be:  
no difference between the two, given that the user makes no user  
errors, and that the units of adjustment available via DDC and the  
front panel controls are the same; there are a few instances where the  
DDC controls have finer gradations.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Apr 1, 2009, at 7:31 PM, jim kitchen <jim.kitchen@...> wrote:

> Dear Ernst,
>
> I am sorry, but I do not understand your question, or comment...
>
> Are you asking whether a manual calibration approach, could be as  
> good as,
> or equal to a software calibration approach?
>
> jim k
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNE 
> R‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Cdtobie schreef:
> That is how I understood the question, and if so, the answer would be:  
> no difference between the two, given that the user makes no user  
> errors, and that the units of adjustment available via DDC and the  
> front panel controls are the same; there are a few instances where the  
> DDC controls have finer gradations.
> 
> C. D. Tobie
> Global Product Technology Mngr.
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor.com
> CDTobie@...

That is what I tried to get across :-) and the user makes no errors.

So as an example, the NEC 2690 Spectraview calibrated either way could 
deliver the same precision or the DDC control makes finer steps and the 
DDC route is for that reason more accurate?

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Yes, the display would need thumbwheels the size of frisbees to be as sensitive as the DDC.

The EIZO by example has 500k increments on its color temp button. The brightness and contrast are just as course.

Add human error to the mix or a human having a particularly bad Gestalt psychology day and...

Jon



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> Cdtobie schreef:
> > That is how I understood the question, and if so, the answer would be:  
> > no difference between the two, given that the user makes no user  
> > errors, and that the units of adjustment available via DDC and the  
> > front panel controls are the same; there are a few instances where the  
> > DDC controls have finer gradations.
> > 
> > C. D. Tobie
> > Global Product Technology Mngr.
> > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > Datacolor.com
> > CDTobie@...
> 
> That is what I tried to get across :-) and the user makes no errors.
> 
> So as an example, the NEC 2690 Spectraview calibrated either way could 
> deliver the same precision or the DDC control makes finer steps and the 
> DDC route is for that reason more accurate?
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

Jon Cone schreef:
> Yes, the display would need thumbwheels the size of frisbees to be as sensitive as the DDC.
> 
> The EIZO by example has 500k increments on its color temp button. The brightness and contrast are just as course.
> 
> Add human error to the mix or a human having a particularly bad Gestalt psychology day and...
> 
> Jon

That's a rough interface, not what I see on my monitors.
I see 0,3 % steps on the NEC 2690Wuxi here for brightness and contrast.
The RGB settings accordingly.
The HP variation of the Eye One monitor calibration gives positive 
feedback on the settings on that monitor and it does the same on a 
humble Samsung 205BW with the smaller gamut.

I'm sure even Goethe could have done the job with the controls I have here.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

On Apr 2, 2009, at 4:09 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> That is what I tried to get across :-) and the user makes no errors.

Yes, I suspected that you understood this, it was for others that I  
worded it that way! <G>
>
> So as an example, the NEC 2690 Spectraview calibrated either way could
> deliver the same precision or the DDC control makes finer steps and  
> the
> DDC route is for that reason more accurate?

There are a few top graphics displays which add yet another layer of  
complexity by having LUTs in the display. In that case, the LUTs in  
the display would have to be set to an appropriate Gamma and  
Whitepoint, for results to be similar when calibrated externally, and  
calibrated internally, which would typically be done via DDC.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 2, 2009, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:

> The EIZO by example has 500k increments on its color temp button.

One does not set the color temp by choosing values from the color temp  
button, Jon.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I thought you were suggesting that rather than use the DDC you would  
have the user press buttons for a "hardware" calibration.

Jon

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 3, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Jon Cone wrote:

> I thought you were suggesting that rather than use the DDC you would
> have the user press buttons for a "hardware" calibration.

I assume you are playing dumb on purpose Jon. Using a numerical preset  
for whitepoint is not how one adjusts whitepoint. One starts from the  
closest preset, for convenience, then tunes using RGB Gains, if  
available, or LUT adjustments if not. DDC does the same thing; it does  
not have access to magic controls not available elsewhere.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now you're playing with me...   David!

Weren't you suggesting that a human eye and the little thumb pushing button thingies (though without human error) could replace the use of hardware calibration through DDC?

I interpreted your answer to Jim to mean just that - pushing the buttons on the panel display could replace what DDC hardware calibration does. If you didn't actually mean that - it came across my DDC calibrated display to read as such, and I found that hard to believe coming from you.

thoroughly confused now,

Jon


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Apr 3, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> 
> > I thought you were suggesting that rather than use the DDC you would
> > have the user press buttons for a "hardware" calibration.
> 
> I assume you are playing dumb on purpose Jon. Using a numerical preset  
> for whitepoint is not how one adjusts whitepoint. One starts from the  
> closest preset, for convenience, then tunes using RGB Gains, if  
> available, or LUT adjustments if not. DDC does the same thing; it does  
> not have access to magic controls not available elsewhere.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

The question, long ago and far away, was a sensor and software, with  
DDC, and without.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Apr 3, 2009, at 9:13 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:

> Now you're playing with me...   David!
>
> Weren't you suggesting that a human eye and the little thumb pushing  
> button thingies (though without human error) could replace the use  
> of hardware calibration through DDC?
>
> I interpreted your answer to Jim to mean just that - pushing the  
> buttons on the panel display could replace what DDC hardware  
> calibration does. If you didn't actually mean that - it came across  
> my DDC calibrated display to read as such, and I found that hard to  
> believe coming from you.
>
> thoroughly confused now,
>
> Jon
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Apr 3, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>
>>> I thought you were suggesting that rather than use the DDC you would
>>> have the user press buttons for a "hardware" calibration.
>>
>> I assume you are playing dumb on purpose Jon. Using a numerical  
>> preset
>> for whitepoint is not how one adjusts whitepoint. One starts from the
>> closest preset, for convenience, then tunes using RGB Gains, if
>> available, or LUT adjustments if not. DDC does the same thing; it  
>> does
>> not have access to magic controls not available elsewhere.
>>
>> C. David Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Manager
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>>
>>  ----------
>>
>>
>>
>> Datacolor
>> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Cdtobie schreef:
> The question, long ago and far away, was a sensor and software, with  
> DDC, and without.

Correct David.

And the replies had the tags: deliberately confusing, mockery or absent.

It is simple: DDC is a convenient feature when available + supported but 
not essential if the sensor + monitor controls + calibration software is 
at the same quality  level.

Simply check the calibrated color quality of the monitor you like here:
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=36&mo1=224&p1=2104&ma2=36&mo2=120&p2=1287&ph=6
and you will know whether that monitor can be calibrated. They use a 
LaCie Blue Eye Pro system + the monitor controls.
The reviews tell you whether it has the right monitor controls.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

On Apr 4, 2009, at 4:03 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> Cdtobie schreef:
>> The question, long ago and far away, was a sensor and software, with
>> DDC, and without.
>
> Correct David.
>
> And the replies had the tags: deliberately confusing, mockery or  
> absent.

I do have to ask which category I'm being put into... <G>

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 4/1/09 3:00 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <edinkla@...> wrote:

Is there any theoretical difference possible in calibration quality...


Dear Ernst,

Now that I understand your question, I do not know how you do it, but you
must have a wee bit more patience than I, or better eyes that I, to tweak a
monitor manually with the tools nearby, compared to a software package that
will do this exercise for you...

The software I happen to own continuously iterates through each calibration
step, before moving to the next calibration step, setting the monitor's
white point, luminance, gamma, and black point targets until the software's
tight differential limits are reached and, or the monitor cannot physically
reach the required software limit resulting from the monitor's limited
ability or age.

I surely know that I could not do that manually, with any degree of accuracy
at all, nor would I ever believe that my eyes would allow me to see the
incremental differences, and accept the differential settings, because I
believe my eyes would adjust to the screen conditions, and room lighting
conditions; accordingly, during the calibration process.

I also know that if I tried to calibrate the monitor manually, while
comparing the calibration result to the finished print, I would probably be
calibrating the monitor up to, and including the monitor's warranty end
date, during my first attempt... :)

I admire your tenacity...

jim k



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You guys! Yes yes yes I see now. You know, actual rather than implied tags would have been useful!!! lol   I was reading the posts as if they were serious.  I didn't pick up on the humor until following your link for the display comparisons favored by "gamers"... har har and i admit now to feeling foolish. Ernst, not everyone on this listserve is up to the wry humor that you and David possess. Or I am not!  lol

Many readers who are not "in the know" technically, may not have realized that the variables required for the comparison David made are obviously impossible to meet. I actually thought you two had fallen off the deep-end until I went back to read between the lines = "same quality level". Of course - how obvious.

On the other hand, there are a lot of worse problems in the world to ponder than the quality of one's calibration standards. And humor is what we are going to be needing a lot of in the coming months. But then again, things are so serious right now - and people are really looking for sound advice before making hardware investments - so that when advising with sarcasm, it might be best to somehow literally "tag" as sarcasm. Some see sarcasm as an abuse of the intellect, rather than a thin disguise to state something that is painfully obvious (but not often to others). As "elders" we have the responsibility of clarity. 

Perhaps use a wink  ;)  or something to tag it properly. Everyone will then read it as a nod of the head towards some other more obvious knowledge. And if it's not obvious, the wink indicates that they should pursue the investigation of what they do not understand or simply ask follow ups - before they invest in a close-out Huey and some DDC compliant display from Staples or Office Depot that has a DDC merely for testing and QC by the factory.

After all, a Kia and a Bentley both have a windshield, a motor, a suspension system and four wheels which if all are at the same standard of quality will offer the same standard of ride. Imagine what you can do with the savings! You can buy an EIZO!   

;)  wink wink


Best,


Jon


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> Cdtobie schreef:
> > The question, long ago and far away, was a sensor and software, with  
> > DDC, and without.
> 
> Correct David.
> 
> And the replies had the tags: deliberately confusing, mockery or absent.
> 
> It is simple: DDC is a convenient feature when available + supported but 
> not essential if the sensor + monitor controls + calibration software is 
> at the same quality  level.
> 
> Simply check the calibrated color quality of the monitor you like here:
> http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=36&mo1=224&p1=2104&ma2=36&mo2=120&p2=1287&ph=6
> and you will know whether that monitor can be calibrated. They use a 
> LaCie Blue Eye Pro system + the monitor controls.
> The reviews tell you whether it has the right monitor controls.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

Jim,

They were joking!

They both said if the system had controls at "the same quality level" - which they don't! It was a disclaimer of sorts that was easy to miss.

They were simply abusing their intellects at yours and my expense.   

ROFL

Jon



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, jim kitchen <jim.kitchen@...> wrote:

>
> On 4/1/09 3:00 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <edinkla@...> wrote:
> 
> Is there any theoretical difference possible in calibration quality...
> 
> 
> Dear Ernst,
> 
> Now that I understand your question, I do not know how you do it, but you
> must have a wee bit more patience than I, or better eyes that I, to tweak a
> monitor manually with the tools nearby, compared to a software package that
> will do this exercise for you...
> 
> The software I happen to own continuously iterates through each calibration
> step, before moving to the next calibration step, setting the monitor's
> white point, luminance, gamma, and black point targets until the software's
> tight differential limits are reached and, or the monitor cannot physically
> reach the required software limit resulting from the monitor's limited
> ability or age.
> 
> I surely know that I could not do that manually, with any degree of accuracy
> at all, nor would I ever believe that my eyes would allow me to see the
> incremental differences, and accept the differential settings, because I
> believe my eyes would adjust to the screen conditions, and room lighting
> conditions; accordingly, during the calibration process.
> 
> I also know that if I tried to calibrate the monitor manually, while
> comparing the calibration result to the finished print, I would probably be
> calibrating the monitor up to, and including the monitor's warranty end
> date, during my first attempt... :)
> 
> I admire your tenacity...
> 
> jim k
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

You Sir, are The Riddler!

Ernst is The Joker!

lol




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Apr 4, 2009, at 4:03 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> 
> > Cdtobie schreef:
> >> The question, long ago and far away, was a sensor and software, with
> >> DDC, and without.
> >
> > Correct David.
> >
> > And the replies had the tags: deliberately confusing, mockery or  
> > absent.
> 
> I do have to ask which category I'm being put into... <G>
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Jon Cone schreef:
> You Sir, are The Riddler!
> 
> Ernst is The Joker!

Switching to fifth gear, Jon ?

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

On Apr 4, 2009, at 11:06 AM, Jon Cone wrote:

>  Some see sarcasm as an abuse of the intellect, rather than a thin  
> disguise to state something that is painfully obvious (but not often  
> to others).
>




Sarcasm is not merely synonymous for irony or facetiousness.  The word  
comes from a word which originally meant "to cut".  There is an  
element of something painful or hurtful one wishes to inflict in the  
sarcastic.

James




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Jon,

I guess I missed that humour in a grand way, didn¹t I?

I will never know, whether someone¹s humour is intentionally placed between
the lines, or not, unless they indicate their intent while using a smilely
form. That said, I guess I will not over analyze someone¹s comment, as if I
were ready to calibrate a monitor, either.

Then again, if I was in a fighting mood... :)


Here is a good list of smileys, and it seems a bit of historical background,
too...

<http://www.borislavdopudja.net/en/writings/smiley/>


jim k





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No!  :(  No unfortunately, I had to come to a complete stop.

Sadly, I just decided only three weeks ago to quit racing. Daytona was my last event and it proved difficult. My eyes can not calibrate at the speeds they used to and I cannot be a danger to others. All of the InkjetMall team with the exception of Narbonne (now in AMA Superbike) have disbanded in 2009, or returned to club racing.

But, speaking of Assen, which may just be down the street from you - and speaking of humor, have you "noticed" the logo of the sponsor of your Netherlands MotoGP? A-Style was not obvious to use here in USA as a manufacturer of condoms. It cracks me up what they did with the umlet that should have been over the A.  ;)

Jon



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> Jon Cone schreef:
> > You Sir, are The Riddler!
> > 
> > Ernst is The Joker!
> 
> Switching to fifth gear, Jon ?
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

I am sure it was all in good fun, Jim.

That list is amazing which you linked. When I was in Tokyo two years ago, I had to rent a phone because my cell would not work there. The phone came with emoticons that took up to 5 lines of text. They were small pictures really, made from alphanumerics and symbols. Amazing!


Generally speaking, email and list messages become the source of so many mis-understandings because they are written so casually - and we do not have the body language or the voice nuances to interpret everything. But it's also amazing how fast we can now communicate.

Jon



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, jim kitchen <jim.kitchen@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Jon,
> 
> I guess I missed that humour in a grand way, didn¹t I?
> 
> I will never know, whether someone¹s humour is intentionally placed between
> the lines, or not, unless they indicate their intent while using a smilely
> form. That said, I guess I will not over analyze someone¹s comment, as if I
> were ready to calibrate a monitor, either.
> 
> Then again, if I was in a fighting mood... :)
> 
> 
> Here is a good list of smileys, and it seems a bit of historical background,
> too...
> 
> <http://www.borislavdopudja.net/en/writings/smiley/>
> 
> 
> jim k
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On 4/4/09 12:15 PM, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:

I am sure it was all in good fun, Jim.

Dear Jon,

I believe you are correct, and that list should add some fun, to the end of
my emails... :)

jim k




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jim kitchen schreef:
> On 4/1/09 3:00 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <edinkla@...> wrote:
> 
> Is there any theoretical difference possible in calibration quality...
> 
> 
> Dear Ernst,
> 
> Now that I understand your question, I do not know how you do it, but you
> must have a wee bit more patience than I, or better eyes that I, to tweak a
> monitor manually with the tools nearby, compared to a software package that
> will do this exercise for you...
> 
> The software I happen to own continuously iterates through each calibration
> step, before moving to the next calibration step, setting the monitor's
> white point, luminance, gamma, and black point targets until the software's
> tight differential limits are reached and, or the monitor cannot physically
> reach the required software limit resulting from the monitor's limited
> ability or age.
> 
> I surely know that I could not do that manually, with any degree of accuracy
> at all, nor would I ever believe that my eyes would allow me to see the
> incremental differences, and accept the differential settings, because I
> believe my eyes would adjust to the screen conditions, and room lighting
> conditions; accordingly, during the calibration process.
> 
> I also know that if I tried to calibrate the monitor manually, while
> comparing the calibration result to the finished print, I would probably be
> calibrating the monitor up to, and including the monitor's warranty end
> date, during my first attempt... :)
> 
> I admire your tenacity...
> 
> jim k

Jim,

Because you admire my tenacity I will now try to explain to you what
today's "manual" monitor calibration does.

There's a puck on your monitor that measures, there's software that
shows a bar with the desired value in the middle for every step:
contrast, Kelvin number and brightness. Values that you select before
the monitor calibration begins. If the selected value is reached, the
software gives the positive signal, a green icon.
Of course adding a bell sound may be a good idea for people with bad
eyes  :-)
End of one line of sarcasm
You move on to the next step and shift the RGB values to
get the desired K value (Like David wrote after selecting a Kelvin
default of the monitor that comes close), here you
just check 6500K and the shifting number that becomes 6500K after some
tweaking, then Brightness and its green icon. You walk back to the first
as the last settings shift the firsts a bit and adjust them a little so
all three get the positive signal. Tenacity and eye strain are not the
terms I think off when the monitor is calibrated.

What you may have in mind is software like Prove It! that used the grey
field next to the black and white line grid, etc etc.  You still could
verify part of the values with the puck but it certainly asked for at
least half an hour dedicated attention. Written by Joseph Holmes and
quite sophisticated for its time. He knew very well what was required
for calibration and profiling but the equipment wasn't like it is now. I 
used that till three years ago together with a Spectrocam + the software 
of the Spectrocam that gave me the absolute numbers for for example 
viewing light correlation.

This is all about calibration, setting the monitor to a selected standard

For the monitor profile creation we all use a puck and it does the job
automagically. That isn't the part we are discussing here.

There are members on this list that can afford a NEC, Eizo, Samsung XL,
LaCie model.
There are members on this list who for very good reasons (budget) buy
monitors that are cheaper and try to find calibration/profiling
solutions that deliver equal or at least adequate quality for Photoshop
editing. And that is possible within 1 Delta E as can be seen on the
web pages I mentioned before.
To simply declare DDC's automatic interfacing of the monitor's hardware
and calibration puck as the only reliable method isn't in the interest
of many on this list. Your information on the "manual" methods like
given above isn't a service to them either.

I understand David's interests but I have not seen a flaw in the
information he gave on this subject.
BTW, I'm not using David's products. Not for printer profiling either.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |