Digital BW, The Print

I just bought an X-rite 880 for $50 (free postage for US addresses, but not for me :( ) from ebay - it is on its way.  In case anybody is interested, there are four more left as of now.  Here is the link:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190301898010

unny

Interesting. From the auction:

"I picked this up at a liquidation auction in Grand Rapids Michigan.
Unit was sold to me as tested and working. It powers up and appears to
be in good working condition. It passes the self test when powering up.
Includes: * X-RITE 418 Color Reflection Densitometer   It does NOT
include the AC adapter. The AC adapter is available from another seller
here on eBay."

And he has *four* of them, just like this? Maybe it's above board, but
it sounds, umm, unusual. And the description above says it's a 418, but
the auction heading (and the picture) says 880.

Anyway, thanks for the pointer.


Andrew

On 04/29/2009 08:53 PM, unnytg wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I just bought an X-rite 880 for $50 (free postage for US addresses, but
> not for me :( ) from ebay - it is on its way. In case anybody is
> interested, there are four more left as of now. Here is the
> link:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190301898010
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190301898010>
> 
> unny
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Sharpe <asharpe@...> wrote:

> And he has *four* of them, just like this? Maybe it's above board, but
> it sounds, umm, unusual. And the description above says it's a 418, but
> the auction heading (and the picture) says 880.

A while back I was looking for a used UV Densitometer and kept running into cheap densitometers on ebay.  They were mostly 2nd party branded and had come as OEM equipment included with large commercial presses.  No documentation, no software, same disclaimer: powers up fine but unable to test (No Software!)  Never did find out what they were designed to measure and no idea of what software might be needed, or cost, just for a simple density measurement and definitely no profile making software without spending hundreds.  These may be usable but I'd do an awful lot of research first.

On Apr 30, 2009, at 7:19 AM, robert49brake wrote:

> A while back I was looking for a used UV Densitometer and kept  
> running into cheap densitometers on ebay.  They were mostly 2nd  
> party branded and had come as OEM equipment included with large  
> commercial presses.  No documentation, no software, same disclaimer:  
> powers up fine but unable to test (No Software!)  Never did find out  
> what they were designed to measure and no idea of what software  
> might be needed, or cost, just for a simple density measurement and  
> definitely no profile making software without spending hundreds.

ICC profiles cannot be built with a densitometer, at least not the  
kind the ICC defines, since color values are needed. Densitometers can  
linearize color ramps, but they can't actually tell what color they  
are... so densitometers can create channel curves, but not color  
profiles.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I found the manual for the X-rite 880 on their website, here is a short description of its functions (I quote):
The X-Rite 880 is an automated instrument that will read film control strips, paper control strips, and printer balance
strips. Simply insert strip into unit for motorized, automatic measurements.
The instrument automatically measures many types of control strips (ex., EP2, C41, RA-4, etc.), sorts the data for
measured fields such as: HD, LD, & Stain; and then displays and simultaneously transmits the data to the minilab printer.
The strip formats are broken down into three categories:
· Paper (EP2, RA-4, CP-21, AP-92, R-3, P-3, etc.).
· Film (C-41, KBM, CN-16, etc.).
· Printer Balance (White Ringed Bull's-Eyes, Black Ringed Bull's-Eyes, Cropped Bull's-Eyes, etc.).

I can post more on the unit (condition etc) once I get it; it is on its way.  I live in southern Ontario, Canada, so it will be a week or so before it arrives.  The seller has a 100% positive rating ( after selling 1340 items) in e-bay, and the unit's photo is the same as the picture in the Xrite manual, so I hope everything turns out fine!
Unny


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Apr 30, 2009, at 7:19 AM, robert49brake wrote:
> 
> > A while back I was looking for a used UV Densitometer and kept  
> > running into cheap densitometers on ebay.  They were mostly 2nd  
> > party branded and had come as OEM equipment included with large  
> > commercial presses.  No documentation, no software, same disclaimer:  
> > powers up fine but unable to test (No Software!)  Never did find out  
> > what they were designed to measure and no idea of what software  
> > might be needed, or cost, just for a simple density measurement and  
> > definitely no profile making software without spending hundreds.
> 
> ICC profiles cannot be built with a densitometer, at least not the  
> kind the ICC defines, since color values are needed. Densitometers can  
> linearize color ramps, but they can't actually tell what color they  
> are... so densitometers can create channel curves, but not color  
> profiles.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

More info on the X-rite 880:
My e-bay purchase of the X-rite 880 came home in great shape and I have got it running with data download/control via RS-232 into Cutecom under OpenBSD.  I need to calibrate it (waiting for a calibration strip, $25 from X-rite) and then it can measure paper reflection over 0 to 2.5D with +/-0.02D accuracy and +/- 0.01D repeatability and a Status A spectral response.  As is, I fed it with a 21 step gray scale printout on Canon MP-101 matte paper using Eboni-Black ink diluted with Paul Roark's generic "Open Source" dilution formula (slightly modified) for each of the four ink positions in an Epson C88+.  I am using Gutenprint 5.2 and Photoprint 0.4.0 for eventual 16bit printing and full nozzle control. To create the linearization transforms, there is also a program called ArgyllCMS that runs under BSD/Linux which can control some similar X-rite instruments and I am hoping to dig into its source code and modify that to use it for controlling and reading the x-880.  I can also read film or negative strips over 0 to 4.0D with a Status M spectral response.  All in all, I think the X-rite 880 is a great (obsolete) machine for around $25.00!  There are more of them coming up for sale on e-bay...
Anyway, I should take this thread off this group since it is drifting away from printing to programming.  If there are interested parties developing fully opensource Ink Jet Control and Open Printing using Gutenprint et.al. I would love to hear from them here on on other forums.

Unny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "unnytg" <erissery@...> wrote:

>
> I found the manual for the X-rite 880 on their website, here is a short description of its functions (I quote):
> The X-Rite 880 is an automated instrument that will read film control strips, paper control strips, and printer balance
> strips. Simply insert strip into unit for motorized, automatic measurements.
> The instrument automatically measures many types of control strips (ex., EP2, C41, RA-4, etc.), sorts the data for
> measured fields such as: HD, LD, & Stain; and then displays and simultaneously transmits the data to the minilab printer.
> The strip formats are broken down into three categories:
> � Paper (EP2, RA-4, CP-21, AP-92, R-3, P-3, etc.).
> � Film (C-41, KBM, CN-16, etc.).
> � Printer Balance (White Ringed Bull's-Eyes, Black Ringed Bull's-Eyes, Cropped Bull's-Eyes, etc.).
> 
> I can post more on the unit (condition etc) once I get it; it is on its way.  I live in southern Ontario, Canada, so it will be a week or so before it arrives.  The seller has a 100% positive rating ( after selling 1340 items) in e-bay, and the unit's photo is the same as the picture in the Xrite manual, so I hope everything turns out fine!
> Unny
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, C D Tobie <CDTobie@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Apr 30, 2009, at 7:19 AM, robert49brake wrote:
> > 
> > > A while back I was looking for a used UV Densitometer and kept  
> > > running into cheap densitometers on ebay.  They were mostly 2nd  
> > > party branded and had come as OEM equipment included with large  
> > > commercial presses.  No documentation, no software, same disclaimer:  
> > > powers up fine but unable to test (No Software!)  Never did find out  
> > > what they were designed to measure and no idea of what software  
> > > might be needed, or cost, just for a simple density measurement and  
> > > definitely no profile making software without spending hundreds.
> > 
> > ICC profiles cannot be built with a densitometer, at least not the  
> > kind the ICC defines, since color values are needed. Densitometers can  
> > linearize color ramps, but they can't actually tell what color they  
> > are... so densitometers can create channel curves, but not color  
> > profiles.
> > 
> > C. David Tobie
> > Global Product Technology Manager
> > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > CDTobie@
> > 
> > 
> >   ----------
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Datacolor
> > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

While you're working at that why don't you simply use the X-rite Toolcrib program with X-key or any comm program with file capture to place your readings into an ordinary text file and Argyl can use that data as input via indirection on the command line. Any functional instrument can be used in that manner.

I didn't know that Argyl could do B&W profiles or take density readings as d'log values. Wouldn't you need to convert the data to Lab first?

Regards,
Duane






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "unnytg" <erissery@...> wrote:
>
>
To create the linearization transforms, there is also a program called ArgyllCMS that runs under BSD/Linux which can control some similar X-rite instruments and I am hoping to dig into its source code and modify that to use it for controlling and reading the x-880.

Hi Duane,
After reading the paper gray strip, the X-880 spits out the CMY values for each region in a format that depends on your choice.  I used the REPORT format and with a little sh script, redirected it into a text file (after scrubbing the data a bit using sed).  As a test, I printed a 21 step gray strip using CS4 and a matt paper profile that Paul Roark has so kindly provided in his site for MIS Ebony inks, on Canon MP101 matte paper.  I could visually see that the 90%-100% region was not separated well, and the X-880 readings confirmed that.  I just finished this exercise, now I need to correct the profile for the deviations using the 880 output and measure the corrected output to check that all is well.  Anyway, I am getting good use out of the $25 purchase, so am happy!
I can send the 880 an "SV" command from the computer to make it return its ID string.  I am trying to get the control commands documentation from X-rite (part number 880-506); if anybody has it, it would be a great help if I could glean its contents.  Eventually, when time permits, I would like to read out the contents of the EPROM, and may be reverse engineer it enough to make it do other useful things...
I will try to upload a pdf file with a plot of the readings (mean of three trials, with the three channels plotted separately) to the files section, with a filename: "C88+ calibration curve.pdf"

Regards,
Unny
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote:

>
> While you're working at that why don't you simply use the X-rite Toolcrib program with X-key or any comm program with file capture to place your readings into an ordinary text file and Argyl can use that data as input via indirection on the command line. Any functional instrument can be used in that manner.
> 
> I didn't know that Argyl could do B&W profiles or take density readings as d'log values. Wouldn't you need to convert the data to Lab first?
> 
> Regards,
> Duane
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "unnytg" <erissery@> wrote:
> >
> >
> To create the linearization transforms, there is also a program called ArgyllCMS that runs under BSD/Linux which can control some similar X-rite instruments and I am hoping to dig into its source code and modify that to use it for controlling and reading the x-880.
>