Digital BW, The Print

I am new to this group.  I would like to ask a general question about black and white printing.  I come from a traditional silver gelatin and platinum background.  I have not been very happy with black and white inkjet printing until recently.  Currently I use Cone's Special edition inks, which are very nice, but not yet the answer.  I try to read Paul's outstanding papers on his exploration of different types of carbon inks and I am very impressed, but over my head :). 

My question is:  I have a Epson 7800 printer, currently loaded with Cone's inks, I would like to make neutral black and white prints, on mate and glossy surfaces, using pure carbon inks, and to have the best archival properties possible.  I would like to use also the new Canson Baryta paper, as well as Premier new Alcia (I guess that is the spelling). Is there any MIS/Paul's ink set I can use for the Epson 7800 without going through these elaborated mixing formulas, and if there is, where can I buy them??

Thank you very much for your help.

Edgar

"edgarangelone" <edgarangelone@...> wrote:
>...
> I have a Epson 7800 printer, currently loaded with Cone's inks, I would like to make neutral black and white prints, on mate and glossy surfaces, using pure carbon inks, and to have the best archival properties possible. 

There is no perfectly neutral 100% carbon ink, particularly for glossy paper.  Eboni MK at full concentration is the closest we have to a neutral 100% carbon ink for matte paper.  With a 1.5 picoliter printer like the 1400 or 1800/1900 it can look quite good, but still a little rougher or grainier than many want.  For glossy paper it can be sprayed to hold it down, but that is probably not something you'd want to do.  For smoother printing diluting Eboni works, but makes prints warmer.  Nonetheless, with the right matte papers they can still be within what would be considered a medium warm silver print.  There is no glossy solution for 100% carbon that is close to neutral.

So, it's a question of where and how you want to compromise.

My compromise has included using the HP Viveral PK ink, which is the best blend of carbon and color I know of.  So, I can print on glossy paper with a neutral-cool tone and also tone matte prints cooler if need be.

The setup I have in my 7800 (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHp.pdf ) uses inks for which there are commercially available, pre-mixed versions -- Eboni-6 from MIS and HP Vivera PK, Gray and Light gray from HP.  I mix my one dilutions, but you don't have to.  You do, however, have to load your own carts, but that's rather easy.  MIS empty 7800 carts are easy to fill, and many prefer the funner fill types.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> "edgarangelone" <edgarangelone@> wrote:
> >...
> > I have a Epson 7800 printer, currently loaded with Cone's inks, I would like to make neutral black and white prints, on mate and glossy surfaces, using pure carbon inks, and to have the best archival properties possible. 
> 
> There is no perfectly neutral 100% carbon ink, particularly for glossy paper.  Eboni MK at full concentration is the closest we have to a neutral 100% carbon ink for matte paper.  With a 1.5 picoliter printer like the 1400 or 1800/1900 it can look quite good, but still a little rougher or grainier than many want.  For glossy paper it can be sprayed to hold it down, but that is probably not something you'd want to do.  For smoother printing diluting Eboni works, but makes prints warmer.  Nonetheless, with the right matte papers they can still be within what would be considered a medium warm silver print.  There is no glossy solution for 100% carbon that is close to neutral.
> 
> So, it's a question of where and how you want to compromise.
> 
> My compromise has included using the HP Viveral PK ink, which is the best blend of carbon and color I know of.  So, I can print on glossy paper with a neutral-cool tone and also tone matte prints cooler if need be.
> 
> The setup I have in my 7800 (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHp.pdf ) uses inks for which there are commercially available, pre-mixed versions -- Eboni-6 from MIS and HP Vivera PK, Gray and Light gray from HP.  I mix my one dilutions, but you don't have to.  You do, however, have to load your own carts, but that's rather easy.  MIS empty 7800 carts are easy to fill, and many prefer the funner fill types.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
Thank you Paul for your email.  I checked Inkjetsupplies.com but unfortunately, they do not have EB6 LK or LLK.  Could I use the UT3D inks with the HP: PK, LK, and LLK?? Is that an appropriate combination?  Thanks.

Edgar

"edgarangelone" <edgarangelone@...> wrote:
>
> 
>... I checked Inkjetsupplies.com but unfortunately, they do not have EB6 LK or LLK.

For Eboni-6 bulk inks, go to http://www.inksupply.com/eb6.cfm 

Eb6-M is the LK density.  Eb6-LM is the LLK density.

For Eboni-6 in pre-loaded 1400 carts, go to 
http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=EB6-1400-SET

The auto-reset chips on these carts slip in and out easily so that the positions of the carts is easily changed.

MIS prefers to limit sales of Eboni-6 to members of this forum so that people will understand the nature of the inks, including that they are no glossy compatible.

>  Could I use the UT3D inks with the HP: PK, LK, and LLK?? Is that an appropriate combination?  


It is very feasible to use HP PK based inks with MIS warm carbon.  I'd use the K4 LK and LLK (100% carbon), not the UT3d, which is made to be used as a complete set, with rather unique toning of the inks.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Is this MIS carbon 6 inkset in test with aardenburg imaging yet? I'd be curious to see that. From what I saw, you only have the 3 gray channel inks in test right now.

John

"john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Is this MIS carbon 6 inkset in test with aardenburg imaging yet? ...

No, only the 1800 3-MK is in the current test series.  I'll try to get an Eboni-6 sample in.  I would not expect much difference, since they are the same pigment particles and, unlike dyes, carbon pigments are not significantly affected by dilution.  See for example the test of Jon's Carbon Sepia test (AaI_20090415_SN007Lf).  The delta e is about the same (outstandingly low value) no matter what the Lab L value of the test patch.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Sent from my iPhone
Jorge Gaj

Thanks Paul.

I guess I'm a little out of touch, is the 1800-3-MK "neutralized" carbon or is it "natural" warm carbon? 

I'm not so much concerned about warm pigment prints (at this stage, anyway) as I am the neutralized and "selenium" forms of these sets which incorporate magenta and/or blue toners.

What I'm trying to decide is if the safest way to go overall is to use only sepia hue sets for prints of extended stability. Wilhelm has always confused this issue for me by lumping them all together as "black and white" which as we all know vary widely. This is something that Mark at Aardenburg imaging is showing us now in a big way.

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "john" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >
> > Is this MIS carbon 6 inkset in test with aardenburg imaging yet? ...
> 
> No, only the 1800 3-MK is in the current test series.  I'll try to get an Eboni-6 sample in.  I would not expect much difference, since they are the same pigment particles and, unlike dyes, carbon pigments are not significantly affected by dilution.  See for example the test of Jon's Carbon Sepia test (AaI_20090415_SN007Lf).  The delta e is about the same (outstandingly low value) no matter what the Lab L value of the test patch.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Hi John,

>
> ... is the 1800-3-MK "neutralized" carbon or is it "natural" 
> warm carbon? 

The 1800 3-MK is 100% carbon (as best I can tell) and what I'd call medium warm.  One of the reason's I selected it is that it's more neutral than any other carbon black I (or MIS) could find that was pure carbon.  When printed in "black only" mode, including the 3-MK version, the warmth is similar to Jon's neutral K6 inks after 20 MLux Hours of exposure.  See my summary of the recent Aardenburg-Imaging tests at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Aardenburg.pdf  Look at the last column on the right -- Lab B after 20 MLux Hours.

Even Eboni, however, when it is diluted becomes warmer.  Still, it's less warm than the others.  Some papers can hold the increase in Lab B from paper white to the max midtone Lab B to about 3 units (Premier Art's Smooth BW and Hot Press 325) and Arches has a change of barely over 2, but it starts higher.  See the graph on page 9 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHp.pdf  (Note that the graph also has some results where HP PK is mixed in.)


> I'm not so much concerned about warm pigment prints (at this stage, anyway) as I am the neutralized and "selenium" forms of these sets which incorporate magenta and/or blue toners.

I hear you loud and clear.

 
> What I'm trying to decide is if the safest way to go overall is to use only sepia hue sets for prints of extended stability.

Jon's sepia is excellent because it's 100% carbon.  Eboni should be similar.  At 20 MLux Hours, Jon's sepia has a small edge, but that may be due to random error.  We'll have to see.  Note that the Eboni actually cooled a bit.  I'm guessing this is, in part, extremely small "dust" that is burning off.  The smaller the carbon particle, the warmer it is.  That concept is also why Eboni has to be agitated more than most.  It appears to get its relative neutrality from being slightly larger than most carbon -- still extremely small even compared to the nozzles.

> Wilhelm has always confused this issue ...
> Mark at Aardenburg imaging is showing us now in a big way.

Exactly.  I concluded when I got into inks that I had to do my own fade testing, and my testing is largely consistent with Mark's.  However, Mark's are obviously going to have a lot more impact on the market than mine did.  

As a result of my testing I actually incorporated a counter fade yellow in the older generation MIS FSN.  HP and Epson are doing this with their B&W approaches, and with good results.  Ultimately, however, the colors will fade.  

HP has done an excellent job of holding the delta lab A to a minimum in its blended PK and grays, at least on the papers that have been tested.  This is why if I need more neutralisty, HP's PK is where I'm going to get it.  I tried to convince MIS to make a premium B&W set that used better color toners, but I failed.  MIS's inks looked a lot like Jon's in my fade tests.  Lab A will decrease as the magenta fades.  (Note that the light source and other variables can cause the cyan to fade faster than the magenta.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul for the feed back. We have a lot to learn but we're finding out more every year.

john