Digital BW, The Print

I just received a 10 pack of Canson Baryta Photographique. I am looking for
a paper that will compliment Silver Rag, one that is a bit ³whiter² and
smoother. Indeed, Baryta Photographique is both of these. I quite like the
surface, and find the paper to show a bit more detail than Silver Rag. It
also has the same added dimension that I¹ve seen in other baryta coated
papers.

Has anyone else given this paper a try? I would be interested in hearing
some feedback from others before I commit to a roll.

Terry.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Terry Ritz schreef:
> I just received a 10 pack of Canson Baryta Photographique. I am looking for
> a paper that will compliment Silver Rag, one that is a bit \ufffdwhiter\ufffd and
> smoother. Indeed, Baryta Photographique is both of these. I quite like the
> surface, and find the paper to show a bit more detail than Silver Rag. It
> also has the same added dimension that I\ufffdve seen in other baryta coated
> papers.
> 
> Has anyone else given this paper a try? I would be interested in hearing
> some feedback from others before I commit to a roll.
> 
> Terry.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 

The day Arches Canson considers The Netherlands a worthwhile market for 
their digital media I will check all their papers. Any contact so far on 
Drupa, Photokina, over the last ten years, didn't work out to something 
substantial.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

On Jan 29, 2010, at 2:59 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> The day Arches Canson considers The Netherlands a worthwhile market


Perhaps they are confusing it with the hinterlands...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ernst, I'm really sorry to hear that.

Terry.

On 29/01/10 1:59 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <edinkla@...> wrote:

> The day Arches Canson considers The Netherlands a worthwhile market for
> their digital media I will check all their papers. Any contact so far on
> Drupa, Photokina, over the last ten years, didn't work out to something
> substantial.
>

> On Jan 29, 2010, at 2:59 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> 
>> The day Arches Canson considers The Netherlands a worthwhile market
> 
> 
> Perhaps they are confusing it with the hinterlands...
> 
> C. David Tobie

Anything outside Francophonie is hinterland for them, the language they 
use on the Canson Infinity site for customers from the NL isn't Flemish 
or Dutch, could be Marolles but I'm not familiar with that dialect from 
Bruxelles. That's where the Canson's headquarter for Belgium and The 
Netherlands is located.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

On Jan 29, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> Anything outside Francophonie is hinterland for them, the language  
> they
> use on the Canson Infinity site for customers from the NL isn't  
> Flemish
> or Dutch, could be Marolles but I'm not familiar with that dialect  
> from
> Bruxelles. That's where the Canson's headquarter for Belgium and The
> Netherlands is located.


Guess its not really an "infinity" site; just like a universal remote  
doesn't really control the universe...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I too would have like to read about user experiences about the Canson Infinity paper but it somehow turn into a language thing, so if you're interested in that here's some more: 

http://tinyurl.com/yazadef

Getting back to Terry's original post, I too would be interested in reading about b&w printing experience with Canson Baryta Photographique. About the only review I've seen about this paper is that of MR at Luminous-Landscape. However, MR does mostly color printing.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/tale.shtml

Cheers,
Andre

I can respond about the Canson.  I have printed on this paper, the Epson Exhibition Fibre and the Ilford.

Whitest base is the Epson, the Canson is slightly warmer and the Ilford is warmest.  Surface is similar.  Epson is smoothest, Canson similar to Epson...Ilford has a slight bit of tooth.  Other than the slight surface differences and warmth differences, the finished prints are more or less equivalent.

There are a couple things that I personally do not like about all of the F type papers.  They are all so bright that if the intention is to put under a matt for framing, there is no matt board that looks great with any of them unless the matt overlaps the image.  If you present the prints auto matted with a large paper border (not under an overmatt) they look great.

None of these papers are without some gloss differential, but in general they are all very nice papers with high dmax.

While I have spent considerable time testing and printing the Ftype papers, I keep coming back to matte papers...they just have that breathing quality..despite the lower dmax.  At the end of the day, the F type papers have a plastic sort of quality that is so mechanical looking...it is off putting to my eye.

If sharpness, brilliance and high dmax is the goal, the f types all succeed. If the goal is an lovely object, a print with depth and luminosity....I have a very subjective notion that the best matte papers are more beautiful. The matte papers also look great matted with overmatts....there is no obvious difference in the paper base color.  

I went to a lovely Roy Harrington exhibition a few months back.   Roy had printed on one of the f type papers.  To my surprise, Roy trimmed and dry mounted the whole show!  He did so because he also objected to the harsh difference in whites between the f type papers and the matt boards.  His prints looked well finished this way ...but to my way of thinking...dry mounting is a pain in the neck...I am spoiled by having a finished print once the print emerges from the printer... Dry mounting is considered less archival from a museum perspective. 

Roy's prints were actually nearly impossible to distinquish from Gelatin Silver once they were trimmed and dry mounted and under glass.  If the goal is the look of Gelatin Silver, these F type surely are successful.

However to my eye...the dmax differences between the f type and matte papers becomes less significant when put under glass.  

Those are some of my subjective opinions on the subject.  

Phil    

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andre1moreau" <andre1moreau@...> wrote:

>
> I too would have like to read about user experiences about the Canson Infinity paper but it somehow turn into a language thing, so if you're interested in that here's some more: 
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/yazadef
> 
> Getting back to Terry's original post, I too would be interested in reading about b&w printing experience with Canson Baryta Photographique. About the only review I've seen about this paper is that of MR at Luminous-Landscape. However, MR does mostly color printing.
> 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/tale.shtml
> 
> Cheers,
> Andre
>

You are ignoring what I think is the best of these fiber gloss papers,  Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta. It is completely oba free and rich tonally with very good resolution and excellent dmax. With my Z3100 it has the least gloss issues of them all so far. Two others that are  very good are The type 5 Cone paper that I'm just starting to test now and it looks very nice .., and Crane Silver Rag that was the original form of this kind of media. All are oba free natural sheets and the closest thing to analogue silver prints overall. They work with all the oem inks. If  you still have some uneven gloss issues with Epson inks, then two very light coats of Premiere Art or similar spray will take care of it.

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "KentB" <philip@...> wrote:

>
> I can respond about the Canson.  I have printed on this paper, the Epson Exhibition Fibre and the Ilford.
> 
> Whitest base is the Epson, the Canson is slightly warmer and the Ilford is warmest.  Surface is similar.  Epson is smoothest, Canson similar to Epson...Ilford has a slight bit of tooth.  Other than the slight surface differences and warmth differences, the finished prints are more or less equivalent.
> 
> There are a couple things that I personally do not like about all of the F type papers.  They are all so bright that if the intention is to put under a matt for framing, there is no matt board that looks great with any of them unless the matt overlaps the image.  If you present the prints auto matted with a large paper border (not under an overmatt) they look great.
> 
> None of these papers are without some gloss differential, but in general they are all very nice papers with high dmax.
> 
> While I have spent considerable time testing and printing the Ftype papers, I keep coming back to matte papers...they just have that breathing quality..despite the lower dmax.  At the end of the day, the F type papers have a plastic sort of quality that is so mechanical looking...it is off putting to my eye.
> 
> If sharpness, brilliance and high dmax is the goal, the f types all succeed. If the goal is an lovely object, a print with depth and luminosity....I have a very subjective notion that the best matte papers are more beautiful. The matte papers also look great matted with overmatts....there is no obvious difference in the paper base color.  
> 
> I went to a lovely Roy Harrington exhibition a few months back.   Roy had printed on one of the f type papers.  To my surprise, Roy trimmed and dry mounted the whole show!  He did so because he also objected to the harsh difference in whites between the f type papers and the matt boards.  His prints looked well finished this way ...but to my way of thinking...dry mounting is a pain in the neck...I am spoiled by having a finished print once the print emerges from the printer... Dry mounting is considered less archival from a museum perspective. 
> 
> Roy's prints were actually nearly impossible to distinquish from Gelatin Silver once they were trimmed and dry mounted and under glass.  If the goal is the look of Gelatin Silver, these F type surely are successful.
> 
> However to my eye...the dmax differences between the f type and matte papers becomes less significant when put under glass.  
> 
> Those are some of my subjective opinions on the subject.  
> 
> Phil    
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andre1moreau" <andre1moreau@> wrote:
> >
> > I too would have like to read about user experiences about the Canson Infinity paper but it somehow turn into a language thing, so if you're interested in that here's some more: 
> > 
> > http://tinyurl.com/yazadef
> > 
> > Getting back to Terry's original post, I too would be interested in reading about b&w printing experience with Canson Baryta Photographique. About the only review I've seen about this paper is that of MR at Luminous-Landscape. However, MR does mostly color printing.
> > 
> > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/tale.shtml
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Andre
> >
>

I agree completely. HPR Baryta remains at the top of the list here for a more neutral base F type paper, and the soft cotton quality makes handling far superior to the other stiff F types. For a warmer base Silver Rag, after all these new papers have come along, still outperforms, and the Cone Type 5 looks great too.
The Canson Platine I tested looked very much like IGFS, and had a bit more gloss differential than the above mentioned papers, and the Baryta Photographique was reviewed elsewhere to have similar characteristics, so I did not find any to test. If you have an HP with GO like John, or spray like the Baryta Photographique reviewer, perhaps those differences would diminish.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
> You are ignoring what I think is the best of these fiber gloss papers,  Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta. It is completely oba free and rich tonally with very good resolution and excellent dmax. With my Z3100 it has the least gloss issues of them all so far. Two others that are  very good are The type 5 Cone paper that I'm just starting to test now and it looks very nice .., and Crane Silver Rag that was the original form of this kind of media. All are oba free natural sheets and the closest thing to analogue silver prints overall. They work with all the oem inks. If  you still have some uneven gloss issues with Epson inks, then two very light coats of Premiere Art or similar spray will take care of it.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "KentB" <philip@> wrote:
> >
> > I can respond about the Canson.  I have printed on this paper, the Epson Exhibition Fibre and the Ilford.
> > 
> > Whitest base is the Epson, the Canson is slightly warmer and the Ilford is warmest.  Surface is similar.  Epson is smoothest, Canson similar to Epson...Ilford has a slight bit of tooth.  Other than the slight surface differences and warmth differences, the finished prints are more or less equivalent.
> > 
> > There are a couple things that I personally do not like about all of the F type papers.  They are all so bright that if the intention is to put under a matt for framing, there is no matt board that looks great with any of them unless the matt overlaps the image.  If you present the prints auto matted with a large paper border (not under an overmatt) they look great.
> > 
> > None of these papers are without some gloss differential, but in general they are all very nice papers with high dmax.
> > 
> > While I have spent considerable time testing and printing the Ftype papers, I keep coming back to matte papers...they just have that breathing quality..despite the lower dmax.  At the end of the day, the F type papers have a plastic sort of quality that is so mechanical looking...it is off putting to my eye.
> > 
> > If sharpness, brilliance and high dmax is the goal, the f types all succeed. If the goal is an lovely object, a print with depth and luminosity....I have a very subjective notion that the best matte papers are more beautiful. The matte papers also look great matted with overmatts....there is no obvious difference in the paper base color.  
> > 
> > I went to a lovely Roy Harrington exhibition a few months back.   Roy had printed on one of the f type papers.  To my surprise, Roy trimmed and dry mounted the whole show!  He did so because he also objected to the harsh difference in whites between the f type papers and the matt boards.  His prints looked well finished this way ...but to my way of thinking...dry mounting is a pain in the neck...I am spoiled by having a finished print once the print emerges from the printer... Dry mounting is considered less archival from a museum perspective. 
> > 
> > Roy's prints were actually nearly impossible to distinquish from Gelatin Silver once they were trimmed and dry mounted and under glass.  If the goal is the look of Gelatin Silver, these F type surely are successful.
> > 
> > However to my eye...the dmax differences between the f type and matte papers becomes less significant when put under glass.  
> > 
> > Those are some of my subjective opinions on the subject.  
> > 
> > Phil    
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andre1moreau" <andre1moreau@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I too would have like to read about user experiences about the Canson Infinity paper but it somehow turn into a language thing, so if you're interested in that here's some more: 
> > > 
> > > http://tinyurl.com/yazadef
> > > 
> > > Getting back to Terry's original post, I too would be interested in reading about b&w printing experience with Canson Baryta Photographique. About the only review I've seen about this paper is that of MR at Luminous-Landscape. However, MR does mostly color printing.
> > > 
> > > http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/tale.shtml
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > Andre
> > >
> >
>

Tyler,
Speaking of Silver Rag, are you getting excessive curl (much more then when Silver Rag first came out) on last third of a roll? I contacted Dave at Crane and he never admits or denies that something changed, but they are working on something (classic answer). Almost impossible to use. Reminds me of those snappy clip metal things that use to come with Epson printers to keep stored rolls from unrolling :)

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jan 30, 2010, at 1:32 PM, tboleyyh wrote:

> I agree completely. HPR Baryta remains at the top of the list here for a more neutral base F type paper, and the soft cotton quality makes handling far superior to the other stiff F types. For a warmer base Silver Rag, after all these new papers have come along, still outperforms, and the Cone Type 5 looks great too.
> The Canson Platine I tested looked very much like IGFS, and had a bit more gloss differential than the above mentioned papers, and the Baryta Photographique was reviewed elsewhere to have similar characteristics, so I did not find any to test. If you have an HP with GO like John, or spray like the Baryta Photographique reviewer, perhaps those differences would diminish.
> Tyler

John,

I certainly concur with your comments about HPB , but in comparing  
the Cone Type 5, as far as gloss issues I'm seeing, with my Z3200 ,a  
significant difference to the HPB.  The type 5 is not even close in  
regards to eliminating gloss issues as the HPB seems to do? Are you  
handling the type 5 differently , as far as paper settings, than the  
HPB?

Mark

I have to admit I've gone through so little of it I don't have a history. Only two jobs ever, and my own testing and samples.
But, I have noticed that the job I'm working on right now, one of those precious two, does seem to have a more persistent curl from the current roll. I seem to remember the prints relaxing out, and these have yet to change much.
Is that what you are experiencing?

Lots of matte here, some HPR Baryta, Silver Rag not so much.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:

>
> Tyler,
> Speaking of Silver Rag, are you getting excessive curl (much more then when Silver Rag first came out) on last third of a roll? I contacted Dave at Crane and he never admits or denies that something changed, but they are working on something (classic answer). Almost impossible to use. Reminds me of those snappy clip metal things that use to come with Epson printers to keep stored rolls from unrolling :)
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Jan 30, 2010, at 1:32 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> 
> > I agree completely. HPR Baryta remains at the top of the list here for a more neutral base F type paper, and the soft cotton quality makes handling far superior to the other stiff F types. For a warmer base Silver Rag, after all these new papers have come along, still outperforms, and the Cone Type 5 looks great too.
> > The Canson Platine I tested looked very much like IGFS, and had a bit more gloss differential than the above mentioned papers, and the Baryta Photographique was reviewed elsewhere to have similar characteristics, so I did not find any to test. If you have an HP with GO like John, or spray like the Baryta Photographique reviewer, perhaps those differences would diminish.
> > Tyler
>

Silver Rag prints can be sold at Home Depot after printing as PVC drain tubes. That explain it well enough?
:)

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jan 30, 2010, at 4:02 PM, tboleyyh wrote:

> I have to admit I've gone through so little of it I don't have a history. Only two jobs ever, and my own testing and samples.
> But, I have noticed that the job I'm working on right now, one of those precious two, does seem to have a more persistent curl from the current roll. I seem to remember the prints relaxing out, and these have yet to change much.
> Is that what you are experiencing?
> 
> Lots of matte here, some HPR Baryta, Silver Rag not so much.
> Tyler
>

precisely... I've described my experience with a number of papers the same. 
I'd like one of these reps to come over here and handle one of these jobs without damage. It's hard to even evaluate the proofs. I'm just not using many of those papers any more, IGFS for one. life is too short, there are other options.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:

>
> Silver Rag prints can be sold at Home Depot after printing as PVC drain tubes. That explain it well enough?
> :)
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Jan 30, 2010, at 4:02 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> 
> > I have to admit I've gone through so little of it I don't have a history. Only two jobs ever, and my own testing and samples.
> > But, I have noticed that the job I'm working on right now, one of those precious two, does seem to have a more persistent curl from the current roll. I seem to remember the prints relaxing out, and these have yet to change much.
> > Is that what you are experiencing?
> > 
> > Lots of matte here, some HPR Baryta, Silver Rag not so much.
> > Tyler
> >
>

Have you ever seen one handle one at a trade show? Like a gorilla with mittens on.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jan 30, 2010, at 4:33 PM, tboleyyh wrote:

> I'd like one of these reps to come over here and handle one of these jobs without damage.

oh so THAT'S what I need!!!!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:

>
> Have you ever seen one handle one at a trade show? Like a gorilla with mittens on.
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Jan 30, 2010, at 4:33 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> 
> > I'd like one of these reps to come over here and handle one of these jobs without damage.
>

"KentB" <philip@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
While I have spent considerable time testing and printing the Ftype papers, I keep coming back to matte papers...despite the lower dmax...If the goal is an lovely object, a print with depth and luminosity....I have a very subjective notion that the best matte papers are more beautiful. 
>>>>>>>>>>

Same experience here.  I've tried numerous Fiber Glossy papers over time (2400/K3/ABW), looking for one that would ring my bell and trigger a switch from matte.  They all had good qualities, but in every case there was something that killed the deal for me.  It especially brought home how much I dislike the glare.  I finally stopped testing, it was just a waste of time and energy (and cost) and a distraction from the really important work.  When I finally let go of it the feeling of freedom from a burden was significant.

It reminds me of my experience with film back when TMax and other "modern" B&W films were emerging.  I spent over two years testing various new films with different developers, and I always ended up coming back to Tri-X with either HC-110 or D-76 (mostly medium format 6x7, some 4x5).  Nothing could beat it's combination of qualities and at one point I realized it was futile and quit testing.  It was a huge distraction from what was really important and I felt a big burden dissolve when I finally was able to let go.

Back to the present, the best matte papers are really lovely and the latest offerings show that more of the makers are figuring out how to get the dmax up into the 1.7s.  We now have a bigger selection than ever and I'm heartened to know that the makers haven't given up trying to improve it.  Apparently matte sales are good and they're listening to us.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Clayton, et al.

What you have written here about the experience with matte papers versus 
F type glossy papers struck a chord with me.  I am currently 
experimenting, looking for the right matte or velvet like surface 
paper.  I too come out of the black and white chemical days with a bent 
for the historical processes.

I would like to ask you what matte papers you commonly or currently use 
and would care to recommend to me for black and white printing?

Regards

Mark MacKenzie
Alcalde, NM

What I find strange is that in the darkroom I never liked matte paper much... too dull and flat. I preferred Ilford MGIV Glossy, dried face up on a fiberglass screen to end up with a semi-glossy finish, then flattened in a dry mount press.

Now, in digital printing I find I prefer matte over the glossy (or semi-glossy) print - to the point where I'm looking for a different way of framing or displaying. I don't want to put a matte print under glass, it would detract. (am using Premier Art FineArt Hot Press 205). Probably should start a new thread, perhaps I'm drifting - I see we have a new title for these recent messages.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ClaytonJ" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> "KentB" <philip@> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> While I have spent considerable time testing and printing the Ftype papers, I keep coming back to matte papers...despite the lower dmax...If the goal is an lovely object, a print with depth and luminosity....I have a very subjective notion that the best matte papers are more beautiful. 
> >>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Same experience here.  I've tried numerous Fiber Glossy papers over time (2400/K3/ABW), looking for one that would ring my bell and trigger a switch from matte.  They all had good qualities, but in every case there was something that killed the deal for me.  It especially brought home how much I dislike the glare.  I finally stopped testing, it was just a waste of time and energy (and cost) and a distraction from the really important work.  When I finally let go of it the feeling of freedom from a burden was significant.
> 
> It reminds me of my experience with film back when TMax and other "modern" B&W films were emerging.  I spent over two years testing various new films with different developers, and I always ended up coming back to Tri-X with either HC-110 or D-76 (mostly medium format 6x7, some 4x5).  Nothing could beat it's combination of qualities and at one point I realized it was futile and quit testing.  It was a huge distraction from what was really important and I felt a big burden dissolve when I finally was able to let go.
> 
> Back to the present, the best matte papers are really lovely and the latest offerings show that more of the makers are figuring out how to get the dmax up into the 1.7s.  We now have a bigger selection than ever and I'm heartened to know that the makers haven't given up trying to improve it.  Apparently matte sales are good and they're listening to us.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
>

adrift from.. [Digital BW] Re: Matte FiberGloss Like Tri-X Experience

 

what about a matte that could be 'varnished', matte/gloss, (much like most
do with canvas)

and then framed without glass?

 

fran leblanc
918 902 3005
www.fleblanc.com
www.myspace.com/fleblanc-art 

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 6:55 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Matte FiberGloss Like Tri-X Experience

 

  



What I find strange is that in the darkroom I never liked matte paper
much... too dull and flat. I preferred Ilford MGIV Glossy, dried face up on
a fiberglass screen to end up with a semi-glossy finish, then flattened in a
dry mount press.

Now, in digital printing I find I prefer matte over the glossy (or
semi-glossy) print - to the point where I'm looking for a different way of
framing or displaying. I don't want to put a matte print under glass, it
would detract. (am using Premier Art FineArt Hot Press 205). Probably should
start a new thread, perhaps I'm drifting - I see we have a new title for
these recent messages.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Fran,

I do treat my prints with Premier Art PrintShield which is supposed to make water soluble paper more water resistant and also adds UV protection. It's tested and approved by Wilhelm and Epson.

I suppose that would afford some protection, perhaps not as much as glass. Maybe that's enough?

Pauul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <fran@...> wrote:

>
> adrift from.. [Digital BW] Re: Matte FiberGloss Like Tri-X Experience
> 
>  
> 
> what about a matte that could be 'varnished', matte/gloss, (much like most
> do with canvas)
> 
> and then framed without glass?
> 
>  
> 
> fran leblanc
> 918 902 3005
> www.fleblanc.com
> www.myspace.com/fleblanc-art

On Jan 31, 2010, at 9:51 AM, <fran@...> wrote:

> what about a matte that could be 'varnished', matte/gloss, (much  
> like most
> do with canvas)
>
> and then framed without glass?

Many of the characteristics that make matte media desirable are lost  
to the varnish, which makes them into a gloss media, or a gloss media  
with a semigloss finish.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Phil,

Thanks for your reply. It is greatly appreciated as I was about to look at the F type paper for testing even though it would have meant extra time and expenses.

Matte paper is my preferred choice but the call of the sirens (F-type papers) were kind of hard to resist. But now, that's an issue I'll gladly put aside.

Cheers,
Andre


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "KentB" <philip@...> wrote:

> While I have spent considerable time testing and printing the Ftype papers, I keep coming back to matte papers...they just have that breathing quality..despite the lower dmax.  At the end of the day, the F type papers have a plastic sort of quality that is so mechanical looking...it is off putting to my eye.
> 
> If sharpness, brilliance and high dmax is the goal, the f types all succeed. If the goal is an lovely object, a print with depth and luminosity....I have a very subjective notion that the best matte papers are more beautiful. The matte papers also look great matted with overmatts....there is no obvious difference in the paper base color.  
> 

> 
> Phil

and interestingly, a well varnished good matte print can bear more resemblance to what many of us like about silver, than the PK inkjet papers. In the early days of this forum, many were experimenting with various approaches and sent around a group of prints for some of us to see. The thing is, the image is "In" the coating, and then the clear coating becomes the new actual surface, with the image below. Much like the silver, baryta, gelatin, etc. construction.
PK photo ink papers, the image still sits on top, even a bit of spray seems to help.
The reason some of us respond more favorably to matte ink than matte silver is part of the same scenario, they bear more resemblance to platinum, palladium, gravure, etc, where the image is within the surface, but there is nothing between us and that surface. But with matte silver there's the somewhat dull gelatin over it...
I still try various treatments over matte prints from time to time, but have not found a practical way to go despite some promising tests.
Sunday morning musings...
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
...

> Many of the characteristics that make matte media desirable are lost  
> to the varnish, which makes them into a gloss media, or a gloss media  
> with a semigloss finish.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I neglected to say that PrintShield imparts no gloss... so as far I can tell there is nothing visible that interferes with the depth of the matte image I find appealing. The photo looks no different.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> Thanks, Fran,
> 
> I do treat my prints with Premier Art PrintShield which is supposed to make water soluble paper more water resistant and also adds UV protection. It's tested and approved by Wilhelm and Epson.
> 
> I suppose that would afford some protection, perhaps not as much as glass. Maybe that's enough?
> 
> Pauul
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <fran@> wrote:
> >
> > adrift from.. [Digital BW] Re: Matte FiberGloss Like Tri-X Experience
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > what about a matte that could be 'varnished', matte/gloss, (much like most
> > do with canvas)
> > 
> > and then framed without glass?
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > fran leblanc
> > 918 902 3005
> > www.fleblanc.com
> > www.myspace.com/fleblanc-art
>

Hello mark,

>I would like to ask you what matte papers you commonly or currently >use and would care to recommend to me for black and white printing?

First, there are a couple of things to consider:

1) Which paper one prefers depends a lot on what ink is used.  For example, with Eboni-based inks from MIS, HPR has been one of the most popular papers for years, setting the mark for Dmax, while VFA has tagged along in the shadows in popularity.  With Epson K3 inks, VFA leads the pack with highest Dmax and a gorgeous response to the inks, while HPR has lower Dmax and is not a comfortable fit - it always seems like a struggle to get satisfying tones with it.  Most K3 users I've corresponded with don't use HPR.  Many papers respond differently to the various inks.

2) While Dmax is one of the main attributes people are concerned with, others are also important.  A big one for me is the how well the ink tone harmonizes with the paper color.  Some paper/ink combinations really sing while others are just not a good match, in some way or another.  In addition, papers can have widely different contrast/density curves, with some being easier to work with than others, depending or what sort of profiling approach one uses.  

So there are numerous considerations which ultimately boil down to each person needing to try a variety of papers at first - it's very subjective.

That said, I currently am using a 2400 with K3 inks in ABW mode, so these are my favorite papers:

1) VFA (Epson Velvet Fine Art) - textured, OBAs, Dmax 1.75
My favorite, absolutely gorgeous luminous prints, easy to work with.

2) STA (Innova Soft Textured Art) - no OBAs, warmer, Dmax 1.62 
Best non-OBA paper I found, with better Dmax than most "natural" papers, most of which are under 1.60.  Beautiful response to K3 inks, luxurious appearance, with lots of depth.

3) Recently I've been experimenting with Premier Art's new Generations Alise Natural, with Dmax 1.72.  This is the highest Dmax non-OBA paper I've seen and looks really beautiful with K3 inks.  However it seems to have a bad flaking problem and bad curl.  I'm on hold to see if these problems will be fixed.  If so, it's going to be a winner.

4) Also am testing Premier Art's Smooth Hot Press 325, non-OBA. Dmax unmeasured yet, but looks just a bit less than the Alise.  This has been around awhile and is popular, I somehow overlooked it so I'm a latecomer to it.  Looks real good so far.

When I used Eboni-based inks, my favorites were
1) HPR (Hannehmuhle Photo Rag) - warm tones
2) Condor BW (Hawk Mtn) - cool tones
3) Kayenta (Moab) - cold tones
4) Aurora Art (Red River) - medium warm

Article #5, "The Great Paper Chase", at the link below describes a bunch of different papers in more detail.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Yes.I find that this is the most significant reason why I prefer matte papers. It is the surface itself that enhances on the best of them.
I suspect this is also (along with longevity and non OBA objectives) why some of us keep working with the non-coated papers and trying to bring up d'max on them as well.There are many fine art papers with flat out beautiful surface characteristics.

Duane

> C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> Many of the characteristics that make matte media desirable are lost  
> to the varnish, which makes them into a gloss media, or a gloss media  
> with a semigloss finish.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I find that William Turner 190 with a 1:3 (gloss:matte) spray is a great use
of matte paper with a slight shine; my attempt to match Agfa 118 semi matte.
The trick of course is how the spray is applied in both thickness and
method. 

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dlruckus
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 4:27 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] find I prefer matte

 

  

Yes.I find that this is the most significant reason why I prefer matte
papers. It is the surface itself that enhances on the best of them.
I suspect this is also (along with longevity and non OBA objectives) why
some of us keep working with the non-coated papers and trying to bring up
d'max on them as well.There are many fine art papers with flat out beautiful
surface characteristics.

Duane

> C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> Many of the characteristics that make matte media desirable are lost 
> to the varnish, which makes them into a gloss media, or a gloss media 
> with a semigloss finish.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I spoke too soon Mark,

Tyler sent me a black and white print done on his 9800 on the type 5 and it looked very good indeed for this type media. He sent me some samples to test with on my Z and I still haven't done it yet. What I said was referring to the Epson K3 inks and my inference to the z which was premature. I'll let you know if I see less than favorable results on the HP.



j

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Marks <mark@...> wrote:

>
> John,
> 
> I certainly concur with your comments about HPB , but in comparing  
> the Cone Type 5, as far as gloss issues I'm seeing, with my Z3200 ,a  
> significant difference to the HPB.  The type 5 is not even close in  
> regards to eliminating gloss issues as the HPB seems to do? Are you  
> handling the type 5 differently , as far as paper settings, than the  
> HPB?
> 
> Mark
>

I just picked up a used 20x24 dry mount press. I didn't have a choice, people aren't going to put up with that curl and I wouldn't either. Innova f gloss is just as bad or worse.

john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

>
> precisely... I've described my experience with a number of papers the same. 
> I'd like one of these reps to come over here and handle one of these jobs without damage. It's hard to even evaluate the proofs. I'm just not using many of those papers any more, IGFS for one. life is too short, there are other options.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@> wrote:
> >
> > Silver Rag prints can be sold at Home Depot after printing as PVC drain tubes. That explain it well enough?
> > :)
> > 
> > Mark
> > http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> > 
> > On Jan 30, 2010, at 4:02 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> > 
> > > I have to admit I've gone through so little of it I don't have a history. Only two jobs ever, and my own testing and samples.
> > > But, I have noticed that the job I'm working on right now, one of those precious two, does seem to have a more persistent curl from the current roll. I seem to remember the prints relaxing out, and these have yet to change much.
> > > Is that what you are experiencing?
> > > 
> > > Lots of matte here, some HPR Baryta, Silver Rag not so much.
> > > Tyler
> > >
> >
>

Yeah. Double-sided Fgloss would be nice if just to keep the sheets flat.

I tested the T5. Nice paper. Sharper than Silver Rag with Cone ink.

Walker


On Jan 31, 2010, at 6:37 PM, john wrote:

> I just picked up a used 20x24 dry mount press. I didn't have a  
> choice, people aren't going to put up with that curl and I wouldn't  
> either. Innova f gloss is just as bad or worse.
>
> john
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh"  
> <tyler@...> wrote:
> >
> > precisely... I've described my experience with a number of papers  
> the same.
> > I'd like one of these reps to come over here and handle one of  
> these jobs without damage. It's hard to even evaluate the proofs.  
> I'm just not using many of those papers any more, IGFS for one. life  
> is too short, there are other options.
> > Tyler
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia  
> <mark@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Silver Rag prints can be sold at Home Depot after printing as  
> PVC drain tubes. That explain it well enough?
> > > :)
> > >
> > > Mark
> > > http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> > >
> > > On Jan 30, 2010, at 4:02 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have to admit I've gone through so little of it I don't have  
> a history. Only two jobs ever, and my own testing and samples.
> > > > But, I have noticed that the job I'm working on right now, one  
> of those precious two, does seem to have a more persistent curl from  
> the current roll. I seem to remember the prints relaxing out, and  
> these have yet to change much.
> > > > Is that what you are experiencing?
> > > >
> > > > Lots of matte here, some HPR Baryta, Silver Rag not so much.
> > > > Tyler
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

it may require some experimentation, I get the impression you can vary GO with media settings on the HP? The paper really responds to after-treatment. The prints I sent you had none, but I've sprayed a few and it takes them to another level. So the HP might really make it sing, and Jon's second pass GO mps processes probably look great.
It's unusual paper, as Walker said it's quite sharp, and describes the dots so succinctly I went back and changed all my dot settings and light inks, and GCR settings to keep it smooth and not grainy in the shadows. It can take a lot of ink. The surface is so natural it walks a fine line between matte and gloss. Not sure where I'll go with it yet, I brushed some Golden varnish on a test print... wow...
My work is still on matte and that's going to continue, so anything like that I work on is for a service for others, so I have to talk them into a change from Silver Rag, they tend to resist, I still can't get people to change from HPR to Alise or Rag Photograghique...
T


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
> I spoke too soon Mark,
> 
> Tyler sent me a black and white print done on his 9800 on the type 5 and it looked very good indeed for this type media. He sent me some samples to test with on my Z and I still haven't done it yet. What I said was referring to the Epson K3 inks and my inference to the z which was premature. I'll let you know if I see less than favorable results on the HP.
> 
>

Yes you can vary the GO on the HP, with paper settings,  and I tried  
a range of settings but could not get either bronzing or differential  
to disappear like the HPR Baryta does with the correct setting.
mark

Hello Clayton,

I'm a little puzzled, perhaps there's something I'm not getting here. When I look at your Great Paper Chase, I see this Premier Art 325 paper already reviewed. Are you reviewing now for perhaps different reasons? Also, would it be possible to take a look at the same paper in the 205 weight? That's what I use, and I'm quite sure Paul Roark uses it also. I have trouble using the 325 in my Epson R1800 because of its thickness... even when loading through the rear slot. Thanks!

Paul

> 4) Also am testing Premier Art's Smooth Hot Press 325, non-OBA. Dmax unmeasured yet, but looks just a bit less than the Alise.  This has been around awhile and is popular, I somehow overlooked it so I'm a latecomer to it.  Looks real good so far.
> 
> When I used Eboni-based inks, my favorites were
> 1) HPR (Hannehmuhle Photo Rag) - warm tones
> 2) Condor BW (Hawk Mtn) - cool tones
> 3) Kayenta (Moab) - cold tones
> 4) Aurora Art (Red River) - medium warm
> 
> Article #5, "The Great Paper Chase", at the link below describes a bunch of different papers in more detail.

I use Jon Cone's Special Edition inks in my 4800 and I get gorgeous  
results using Innova FibaPrint white matte they I apply 2 coats of  
Clear Shield liquid laminate type LL with a mix of 50% matte and 50%  
20 satin.

These prints definitely do not need class.

visit www.richardkingphoto.com
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll add my voice to those who prefer matte papers.  For me, glossy is for brochures.

Tyler wrote:
>
> and interestingly, a well varnished good matte print can bear more resemblance to what many of us like about silver, than the PK inkjet papers...
> the image is "In" the coating, ...
> PK photo ink papers, the image still sits on top, even a bit of spray seems to help.


> In the early days of this forum, many were experimenting with various approaches ...

I was enthused by Hydrocote water based polyurethane for a while.  Using a "Mayer rod" to coat Arches uncoated watercolor paper, I was able to get a dmax of 2.5, but there were too many downsides.

>... 
> The reason some of us respond more favorably to matte ink than matte silver is part of the same scenario, they bear more resemblance to platinum, palladium, gravure, etc, where the image is within the surface, but there is nothing between us and that surface.

Nothing except the glazing we'd like to be able to do without but can't.  So far I have not used the optically coated glass or acrylic approach due to cost (and I don't like the residual green reflection of Tru Vue).  I'm tempted by these products, however.

> But with matte silver there's the somewhat dull gelatin over it...

I'd never thought about that before, but there is an obvious difference between the old silver print matte and what we do.  The matte silver prints had such a bad reputation I never even tried them. Now that you mention it, the matte gelatin must have acted like a lightly frosted glass over the image.  The cheap anti-reflecting glazing materials use the same approach with disappointing results.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hello Paul,

>I'm a little puzzled, perhaps there's something I'm not getting here. When I look at your Great Paper Chase, I see this Premier Art 325 paper already reviewed. Are you reviewing now for perhaps different reasons? 

Yes I am, sorry for the confusion.  The 325 is listed in the Eboni chart, the 270 is in the K3 chart.  Those have both been there for several years, done at different times.  The 325 I'm testing now, at Paul Roark's recommendation, seems to be different (several paper makers that I'm aware of have been revising their coatings over the recent years, but I haven't been a regular user of PA papers so I haven't kept up with any changes they may have made).  So I'm thinking they may have changed something.  One web site which sells it lists it as "new".  Once I get the Dmax measured on my friend's meter, and other measurements, I'll make a determination and may revise the old listings.  I don't know for sure yet.


>Also, would it be possible to take a look at the same paper in the 205 weight? 

I'm assuming the Dmax and ink/paper color measurements would be the same for all versions, only differing in thickness and number of coated sides.  They make 6 different versions (200,205-c2s,270,300,325-c2s,500), so it wouldn't be practical to test them all.  I chose the 325 because it's the thicker 2-sided version and is the one I wanted for my own use.

I hope this clarifies it.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Hello Clayton,

> Yes I am, sorry for the confusion.  The 325 is listed in the Eboni chart, the 270 is in the K3 chart.  Those have both been there for several years, done at different times.

Ah... I see. I only downloaded and printed out the Eboni chart way back when I first perused your site!

> >Also, would it be possible to take a look at the same paper in the 205 weight? 
> 
> I'm assuming the Dmax and ink/paper color measurements would be the same for all versions, only differing in thickness and number of coated sides.

One would hope there wouldn't be any difference! But this paper issue is more complex than at first glance, as I'm sure you know better than I! Who knows, there may be some variation in some characteristics from one weight to another. But at any rate, I look forward to your results.

By the way, I've submitted some prints using PA 205 and Eboni ink to Aardenburg and I look forward to those results also. But he's testing for light fade, a different kind of evaluation than what you're doing.

Thanks again,

Paul

Just out of curiosity Mark, what settings ARE you using for HPR Baryta on the Z? I've been seeing no real difference between the HP Baryta media setting and the Fine Art Pearl, less ink, setting.

john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Marks <mark@...> wrote:

>
> Yes you can vary the GO on the HP, with paper settings,  and I tried  
> a range of settings but could not get either bronzing or differential  
> to disappear like the HPR Baryta does with the correct setting.
> mark
>

Is that Clearshield LL varnish in an aerosol solvent spray can or how did you apply it?

I have never been successful with spraying on any of the canvas varnishes on paper with an hplv spray gun or roller application. 

From what I've found on the web, the Clearshield varnishes have great uv protection but show some yellowing in a short period of time but doesn't deteriorate much after the initial yellowing..., where the Premiere Art and similar sprays do not show yellow tints. Am I mistaken? 

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard King <kingrich@...> wrote:

>
> I use Jon Cone's Special Edition inks in my 4800 and I get gorgeous  
> results using Innova FibaPrint white matte they I apply 2 coats of  
> Clear Shield liquid laminate type LL with a mix of 50% matte and 50%  
> 20 satin.
> 
> These prints definitely do not need class.
> 
> visit www.richardkingphoto.com
> P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

> One would hope there wouldn't be any difference! But this paper issue is more complex than at first glance...Who knows, there may be some variation in some characteristics from one weight to another. 

Yikes! I hope not.  It's already too complicated <g>.


>By the way, I've submitted some prints using PA 205 and Eboni ink to Aardenburg and I look forward to those results also. 

Good, I'll be interested as well.


>But he's testing for light fade, a different kind of evaluation than >what you're doing.

Right.  I'm just trying to provide some info, both subjective and objective, about different papers to help people have at least some idea of what a paper is like.  There are so many choices, we can't all test all of them.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

John,

For HPR Baryta I'm using the HPR B preset from HP and then calibrated  
and profiled with that setting with about 102% GO setting.  Have a  
good match with no visible bronzing or differential.  Looks really  
great.  I installed the HFAP preset but haven't tried it yet.
Mark
On Feb 1, 2010, at 2:14 PM, john wrote:

> Just out of curiosity Mark, what settings ARE you using for HPR  
> Baryta on the Z? I've been seeing no real difference between the HP  
> Baryta media setting and the Fine Art Pearl, less ink, setting.
>
> john
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Marks  
> <mark@...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes you can vary the GO on the HP, with paper settings, and I tried
> > a range of settings but could not get either bronzing or  
> differential
> > to disappear like the HPR Baryta does with the correct setting.
> > mark
> >
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>... The 325 I'm testing now ... seems to be different ...

> I'm assuming the Dmax and ink/paper color measurements would be the same for all versions, only differing in thickness and number of coated sides. ...

The Premier Art Smooth Hot Press 325 appears to have an upgraded coating relative to the 205.  

The 205 is the Epson Premier Art Scrapbook paper.  When a company like Epson puts its name on a paper, that freezes the specs, or so I'm told by the Premier Art rep.  So, Premier Imaging can't change that paper. 

It's my opinion that the 325 is a different paper, not just a thicker version of 205/Scrapbook.  The dmax is higher and the paper base is whiter.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> From what I've found on the web, the Clearshield varnishes have great uv protection but show some yellowing in a short period of time but doesn't deteriorate much after the initial yellowing..., where the Premiere Art and similar sprays do not show yellow tints. Am I mistaken? 

I use Premier Art's PrintShield myself, on matte paper. It's not at all glossy or even a semi-glossy spray, the print shows no difference before and after. At the same time, it affords some moisture resistance and UV protection.

Paul

I have some Cone Type 5 coming. I'm hoping to use it with both K7 and K3
inks, and possibly replace Silver Rag with it. Is it truly as warm as Silver
Rag, or reasonably close?

Terry.

On 31/01/10 7:10 PM, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

> It's unusual paper, as Walker said it's quite sharp, and describes the dots so
> succinctly I went back and changed all my dot settings and light inks, and GCR
> settings to keep it smooth and not grainy in the shadows. It can take a lot of
> ink. The surface is so natural it walks a fine line between matte and gloss.
> Not sure where I'll go with it yet, I brushed some Golden varnish on a test
> print... wow...

Marks schreef:
> John,
> 
> For HPR Baryta I'm using the HPR B preset from HP and then calibrated  
> and profiled with that setting with about 102% GO setting.  Have a  
> good match with no visible bronzing or differential.  Looks really  
> great.  I installed the HFAP preset but haven't tried it yet.
> Mark

Recently the acronyms in this list start to become too confusing.

A first proposal:
Hahnem\ufffdhle: HM
Photo Rag: PR
Hewlett Packerd: HP
Baryta, Baryte, Barite: Ba

So:
Hahnem\ufffdhle Photorag Baryta: HM Pr Ba
HP Baryta Satin: HP Ba Sa
Hahnem\ufffdhle HP Smooth Fine Art: HM HP Sm Fi Art

just kidding...

Z3200, I use the HFA Photo Rag Baryta media preset so far without 
alterations.
Color Center custom profile instead of the APS that I could use as well.
Maybe a bit rich on the gloss enhancer.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Well that's amazing you didn't spray it. That is the absolute smoothest fiber gloss I've seen with K3 inks and no spray. I don't think there is anything the HP can do to beat what you sent me ( but I'll try:-). It might not even be as good who knows. The one thing I really like about Photorag Baryta with the Vivera inks is that it is totally neutral. I have an almost impossible time achieving a totally neutral hue like Cone NK7 with the Vivera inks on the matte papers. They always end up a cooler selenium, which is nice, just not dead neutral if I want the even print color throughout the tonal scale into the white paper base. Hope the Type 5 is like that Photorag Baryta rendition, probably is, because Silver Rag is neutral with these inks.

I've found I want to spray everything on these kinds of gloss fiber papers with a light uv coat to protect them, and as you say it helps integrate into the surface more  fully.

I've never tried the Golden Varnish, really you can paint it on smoothly?


john


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

>
> it may require some experimentation, I get the impression you can vary GO with media settings on the HP? The paper really responds to after-treatment. The prints I sent you had none, but I've sprayed a few and it takes them to another level.
> > 
> > Tyler sent me a black and white print done on his 9800 on the type 5 and it looked very good indeed for this type media. He sent me some samples to test with on my Z and I still haven't done it yet. What I said was referring to the Epson K3 inks and my inference to the z which was premature. I'll let you know if I see less than favorable results on the HP.
> > 
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> 
>...The one thing I really like about Photorag Baryta with the Vivera inks is that it is totally neutral....

I agree, and love the paper. THere's just a certain look with a very particular image hue, that with a slight warmer base, gives a look I've only ever seen on old Portriga... that now mysterious and legendary paper. Also, the two papers have slightly different surface qualities, so they remain viable options to each other.

...
> I've never tried the Golden Varnish, really you can paint it on smoothly?

Nope, at least I can't. Many here experimented with various coating methods years back, and a mayer rod approach as Paul mentioned seemed to be the most successful, but I think inconsistent.
It's just maddeningly intriguing to see some little part of a print that looks just right, and dream of the possibilities. Or get drunk. Or beat your head against the wall. Whatever works for the individual, you know, it's a free country. Or not.
T

I was over at Ruth Bernhard's home in San Francisco in the late 70's and she showed me how you could totally transform Portriga Rapid by just adding a touch of Benzatrizole restrainer. That moved it from being a brownish thing to another world ( after Selenium toning).  I just ran across one of those skull prints of hers the other day at someone's house and it all came back to me how perfect her print color was..... and how I stole it at that time for myself.

Sometimes it is just a matter of finding the right paper ink combination for that perfect print color. It doesn't happen often but when it does you like to stick with it if you can.

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> >...The one thing I really like about Photorag Baryta with the Vivera inks is that it is totally neutral....
> 
> I agree, and love the paper. THere's just a certain look with a very particular image hue, that with a slight warmer base, gives a look I've only ever seen on old Portriga... that now mysterious and legendary paper. Also, the two papers have slightly different surface qualities, so they remain viable options to each other.
> 
> ...
> > I've never tried the Golden Varnish, really you can paint it on smoothly?
> 
> Nope, at least I can't. Many here experimented with various coating methods years back, and a mayer rod approach as Paul mentioned seemed to be the most successful, but I think inconsistent.
> It's just maddeningly intriguing to see some little part of a print that looks just right, and dream of the possibilities. Or get drunk. Or beat your head against the wall. Whatever works for the individual, you know, it's a free country. Or not.
> T
>

Richard, did you mean "class" or was that a typo?
Craig




________________________________

From: Richard King <kingrich@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 6:44:32 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] find I prefer matte

  
I use Jon Cone's Special Edition inks in my 4800 and I get gorgeous 
results using Innova FibaPrint white matte they I apply 2 coats of 
Clear Shield liquid laminate type LL with a mix of 50% matte and 50% 
20 satin.

These prints definitely do not need class.

visit www.richardkingphot o.com
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>Sometimes it is just a matter of finding the right paper ink combination for that perfect print color. It doesn't happen often but when it does you like to stick with it if you can.

This is partly OT (being a matte paper), but Hawk Mtn's Merlin Natural reacts uniquely with K3 inks.  Unfortunately the Dmax is about 1.55, but it produces a really nice neutral tone (very handsome on the warm paper base) that I haven't been able to achieve with other papers.  I use it for images that don't require high Dmax.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

That's funny, because Michael and Marsha Burns taught me the Bromophen, Benzatrizole, Selenium combo for Portriga that with careful control seemed to hit that magic look. Later, when I had Ruth at a F.O.P workshop, she looked at a few of my prints and told me exactly what I was using... later I switched to an Ansco 130 variant, Benzatrizole, Selenium...
Now we blend inks.
Ruth was great.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
> I was over at Ruth Bernhard's home in San Francisco in the late 70's and she showed me how you could totally transform Portriga Rapid by just adding a touch of Benzatrizole restrainer. That moved it from being a brownish thing to another world ( after Selenium toning).  I just ran across one of those skull prints of hers the other day at someone's house and it all came back to me how perfect her print color was..... and how I stole it at that time for myself.
> 
> Sometimes it is just a matter of finding the right paper ink combination for that perfect print color. It doesn't happen often but when it does you like to stick with it if you can.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > >...The one thing I really like about Photorag Baryta with the Vivera inks is that it is totally neutral....
> > 
> > I agree, and love the paper. THere's just a certain look with a very particular image hue, that with a slight warmer base, gives a look I've only ever seen on old Portriga... that now mysterious and legendary paper. Also, the two papers have slightly different surface qualities, so they remain viable options to each other.
> > 
> > ...
> > > I've never tried the Golden Varnish, really you can paint it on smoothly?
> > 
> > Nope, at least I can't. Many here experimented with various coating methods years back, and a mayer rod approach as Paul mentioned seemed to be the most successful, but I think inconsistent.
> > It's just maddeningly intriguing to see some little part of a print that looks just right, and dream of the possibilities. Or get drunk. Or beat your head against the wall. Whatever works for the individual, you know, it's a free country. Or not.
> > T
> >
>