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Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-12 by doggo@att.net

I have been printing a fairly large variety of papers on my 3800 for a couple of years and have never had a single problem that was not user induced. I have been seriously considering moving to the Cone inks and refillable cartridges. Cone also offers the Vivid ink in at attempt to provide that newer gamut from the inks of the 3880. 
     The Cone website says that it is unknown whether the Vivid inks will work with the Epson drive and further that new profiles would be required, which could be created by the ColorMunki, also avalable at the Cone site.
     I'm pretty sure that I will buy the Cone color inks for the 3800, but I am greatly intrigued at the idea of the increased gamut if I buy the Vivid inks. Of course, buying the system and then immediately shelling out another $400-to whatever for profiling is a bit of a puzzler. In short, is going for the Vivid colors worth it?
     Does anybody have any experience or information about use of the Vivid inks (designed for the 3880) on a 3800? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
     Thanks In Advance
doggo

Re: [Digital BW] Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-12 by Walker Blackwell

I've use the vivid CC inks in a 9600 no problem. There is no reason in  
my mind why it wouldn't work in the 3800. You're paying 30% of the  
cost of Epson inks. In the long run it's worth an extra 400 bucks on  
profiling hardware.

Walker



On Mar 12, 2010, at 4:29 AM, doggo@... wrote:

> I have been printing a fairly large variety of papers on my 3800 for  
> a couple of years and have never had a single problem that was not  
> user induced. I have been seriously considering moving to the Cone  
> inks and refillable cartridges. Cone also offers the Vivid ink in at  
> attempt to provide that newer gamut from the inks of the 3880.
> The Cone website says that it is unknown whether the Vivid inks will  
> work with the Epson drive and further that new profiles would be  
> required, which could be created by the ColorMunki, also avalable at  
> the Cone site.
> I'm pretty sure that I will buy the Cone color inks for the 3800,  
> but I am greatly intrigued at the idea of the increased gamut if I  
> buy the Vivid inks. Of course, buying the system and then  
> immediately shelling out another $400-to whatever for profiling is a  
> bit of a puzzler. In short, is going for the Vivid colors worth it?
> Does anybody have any experience or information about use of the  
> Vivid inks (designed for the 3880) on a 3800? Any information would  
> be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks In Advance
> doggo
>
>
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by jhd622005

I read on the http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html
webpage the 3800 cannot use the newer 3880 Epson inks.
I would call the Cone office to be sure. The 3880 has a new print head and uses a different algorithim.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "doggo@..." <doggo@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>      I have been printing a fairly large variety of papers on my 3800 for a couple of years and have never had a single problem that was not user induced. I have been seriously considering moving to the Cone inks and refillable cartridges. Cone also offers the Vivid ink in at attempt to provide that newer gamut from the inks of the 3880. 
>      The Cone website says that it is unknown whether the Vivid inks will work with the Epson drive and further that new profiles would be required, which could be created by the ColorMunki, also avalable at the Cone site.
>      I'm pretty sure that I will buy the Cone color inks for the 3800, but I am greatly intrigued at the idea of the increased gamut if I buy the Vivid inks. Of course, buying the system and then immediately shelling out another $400-to whatever for profiling is a bit of a puzzler. In short, is going for the Vivid colors worth it?
>      Does anybody have any experience or information about use of the Vivid inks (designed for the 3880) on a 3800? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>      Thanks In Advance
> doggo
>

Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by rogerbarrett_hps

I don't know about using the Epson vivid inks in a 3800, but I am happily using the Conecolor vivid types with their refillable cartridges in my 3800.

I went for the vivid inks on the assumption that I was more likely to get a colour gamut that matched the standard K3 gamut. I know from doing hundreds of profiles for other people (my small business) that third party inks seldom give the same colour gamut as OEM inks. I was told by the people at Inkjet Mall that their vivid inks are OK in the 3800 so went ahead and did it.

In the event my initial assumption was confirmed. I have found that the colour gamut of the Conecolor vivid set is marginally smaller than I was achieving with the standard K3 set. This is after a bit of fiddling to optimise driver settings and with careful profiling.

The biggest difference that I found is in the Dmax with PK. I believe this is because the Epson PK has black dye added to the pigment, whereas the Conecolor is pure pigment. (I'm sure someone will put me right on this if I'm wrong.) With MK I find that Conecolor is a bit better than K3, again after optimising and profiling.

I should say that the prints I am producing with the Conecolor are visually very similar to the K3 prints, although a side-by-side comparison does show the slightly smaller gamut. The difference is not big enough to send me running back to Epson inks - except maybe the PK....

Roger

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhd622005" <jhd622005@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> I read on the http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html
> webpage the 3800 cannot use the newer 3880 Epson inks.
> I would call the Cone office to be sure. The 3880 has a new print head and uses a different algorithim.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "doggo@" <doggo@> wrote:
> >
> >      I have been printing a fairly large variety of papers on my 3800 for a couple of years and have never had a single problem that was not user induced. I have been seriously considering moving to the Cone inks and refillable cartridges. Cone also offers the Vivid ink in at attempt to provide that newer gamut from the inks of the 3880. 
> >      The Cone website says that it is unknown whether the Vivid inks will work with the Epson drive and further that new profiles would be required, which could be created by the ColorMunki, also avalable at the Cone site.
> >      I'm pretty sure that I will buy the Cone color inks for the 3800, but I am greatly intrigued at the idea of the increased gamut if I buy the Vivid inks. Of course, buying the system and then immediately shelling out another $400-to whatever for profiling is a bit of a puzzler. In short, is going for the Vivid colors worth it?
> >      Does anybody have any experience or information about use of the Vivid inks (designed for the 3880) on a 3800? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
> >      Thanks In Advance
> > doggo
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by Walker Blackwell

You are right. Vivid will not work using ABW in the 3800. Nor will  
Cone Color (K3 or Vivid K3) work with ABW. ABW is tuned very  
specifically to epson ink formulations. That said, there is no reason  
why CC Vivid ink won't actually make it through 3800 print heads. Cone  
ink does a better job at not clogging (in my opinion) than epson ink.  
If you want to do BW printing, use QuadtoneRIP. This is a more custom  
higher quality driver than ABW anyway.

Walker



On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:32 PM, jhd622005 wrote:

>
>
> I read on the http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html
> webpage the 3800 cannot use the newer 3880 Epson inks.
> I would call the Cone office to be sure. The 3880 has a new print  
> head and uses a different algorithim.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "doggo@..."  
> <doggo@...> wrote:
> >
> > I have been printing a fairly large variety of papers on my 3800  
> for a couple of years and have never had a single problem that was  
> not user induced. I have been seriously considering moving to the  
> Cone inks and refillable cartridges. Cone also offers the Vivid ink  
> in at attempt to provide that newer gamut from the inks of the 3880.
> > The Cone website says that it is unknown whether the Vivid inks  
> will work with the Epson drive and further that new profiles would  
> be required, which could be created by the ColorMunki, also avalable  
> at the Cone site.
> > I'm pretty sure that I will buy the Cone color inks for the 3800,  
> but I am greatly intrigued at the idea of the increased gamut if I  
> buy the Vivid inks. Of course, buying the system and then  
> immediately shelling out another $400-to whatever for profiling is a  
> bit of a puzzler. In short, is going for the Vivid colors worth it?
> > Does anybody have any experience or information about use of the  
> Vivid inks (designed for the 3880) on a 3800? Any information would  
> be greatly appreciated.
> > Thanks In Advance
> > doggo
> >
>
>
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@googlewave.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by piezobw

The 3800 can use the inks from the 3880 but not the carts.

ConeColor ink is encapsulated fine pigment with a very narrow band distribution of particle sizes that can easily pass through any of the Epson print heads, including those designed solely for dye inks.

The only issue is as Walker points out - color management. The ConeColor inks while designed to work with Epson ICC workflow, are not color compatible when moved from one color range printer family to another. The Epson RGB workflow is very specific. You can alter what the printer is using - but you need to employ ICC or some other workflow in order to make it work. Not so different that using monochromatic inks in a color printer...

We sell the Vivid inks into the 1400 by example. But, we provide more than 40 ICC profiles to make that possible. Without the ICCs - the customer gets weird color. With the ICCs, the 1400 become a little fine art printmaking system. WE provide the ICCs because at sub $200 printers, no one should be investing in $400 color management packages in order to print pigment.

We do have customers running K7 shades 4&5 to replace Epson Lk and LLK respectively. The density match for these is nearly exact. Some customers are using the Neutral shades 1,4,5 to help with their color management on fine art papers. All our shade 4&5 inks are gloss compatible - but the only sets which are fully gloss compatible are Selenium K7 and WarmNeutral K7 which are both triple-encapsulated pigments from shade 2-7. MPS Black is our triple encapsulated photo black. There is enough encapsulation of K7 1 to prevent it from clogging (that is what encapsulation does), but not enough to make it glossy compatible.

There is new very dense Piezography photo black which has greater dMax than MPS Black 1 - and has a very warm base undertone. But it's so warm that it can not replace Epson Photo Black without ICCs. I use this ink for my backlit process because it's fully opaque.

The short is that if we can remove the color inks from any Epson printer and run monochromatic ink sets - it falls in line that we can put any color scheme into a printer as well. The issues are not mechanical (unless low quality inks are used), but rather a color management issue pertaining to the OEM printer driver. There really is and never has been a limit to what one can imagine as a preferred ink set. The only limitations are imposed by the OEM in an effort to thwart the use of non-OEM inks. 

Best regards,

Jon Cone

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhd622005" <jhd622005@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> I read on the http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html
> webpage the 3800 cannot use the newer 3880 Epson inks.
> I would call the Cone office to be sure. The 3880 has a new print head and uses a different algorithim.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "doggo@" <doggo@> wrote:
> >
> >      I have been printing a fairly large variety of papers on my 3800 for a couple of years and have never had a single problem that was not user induced. I have been seriously considering moving to the Cone inks and refillable cartridges. Cone also offers the Vivid ink in at attempt to provide that newer gamut from the inks of the 3880. 
> >      The Cone website says that it is unknown whether the Vivid inks will work with the Epson drive and further that new profiles would be required, which could be created by the ColorMunki, also avalable at the Cone site.
> >      I'm pretty sure that I will buy the Cone color inks for the 3800, but I am greatly intrigued at the idea of the increased gamut if I buy the Vivid inks. Of course, buying the system and then immediately shelling out another $400-to whatever for profiling is a bit of a puzzler. In short, is going for the Vivid colors worth it?
> >      Does anybody have any experience or information about use of the Vivid inks (designed for the 3880) on a 3800? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
> >      Thanks In Advance
> > doggo
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by Mark Savoia

Jon, where is this new very dense black? Is it on your website someplace? What if compared to Piezotone blacks? dMax better, worst? Can it not be used by us because you stated it is opaque?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:46 AM, piezobw wrote:

> There is new very dense Piezography photo black which has greater dMax than MPS Black 1

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by Walker Blackwell

I would also note that for anyone using a rip (say colorburst) and not  
using Epson's default screening (Epson's default screening will add  
color ink overlay into the netrual to compensate for the brown/green K  
ink that Epson sells) you can buy 4 selenium inks from Jon Cone to  
replace your PK MK LK LLK. Then, when you build your custom CMYK  
profile, the setup will use more pure K ink when printing neutrals in  
color images. This cuts matamerism way down and generally gives you a  
superior profile for printing neutral images with small areas of full  
color (one of the hardest printing procedures, and something today's  
profilers still can't handle very well with mixed Ks like Epson). The  
3800/3880 (with it's 6 droplet sizes) are uniquelly up to this task.  
Also, this method will give you a more stable (neutral) starting point  
for building QuadtoneRIP profiles for your color inks.

This really only works best with the newest head tech starting on the  
3800/4880/3880/9880

I tried this on the 9600 back in the day, but it was touch and go. I  
think Epson developed the brown K ink originally because they were  
limited in nozzles. The only way to get a line/dot-free BW print was  
to mix brown/green K ink with other colors to up the amount of nozzles  
needed to make a neutral print with "high enough" physical resolution.  
I could get a semi-satisfactory neutral K print from the 9600 using  
2880dpi and Smooth Diffusion dither form Studioprint. But this was  
about it. They probably still do this to make it harder for others to  
replicate their ink overlays, but that is just my cynicism bubbling up.

Walker

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by Terry Ritz

Very interesting.

Walker, could this approach be undertaken using ICC profiling tools, say a
Colormunki?

Terry.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 13/03/10 11:14 AM, "Walker Blackwell" <forums@...> wrote:

> I would also note that for anyone using a rip (say colorburst) and not
> using Epson's default screening (Epson's default screening will add
> color ink overlay into the netrual to compensate for the brown/green K
> ink that Epson sells) you can buy 4 selenium inks from Jon Cone to
> replace your PK MK LK LLK. Then, when you build your custom CMYK
> profile, the setup will use more pure K ink when printing neutrals in
> color images. This cuts matamerism way down and generally gives you a
> superior profile for printing neutral images with small areas of full
> color (one of the hardest printing procedures, and something today's
> profilers still can't handle very well with mixed Ks like Epson). The
> 3800/3880 (with it's 6 droplet sizes) are uniquelly up to this task.
> Also, this method will give you a more stable (neutral) starting point
> for building QuadtoneRIP profiles for your color inks.
> 
> This really only works best with the newest head tech starting on the
> 3800/4880/3880/9880
> 
> I tried this on the 9600 back in the day, but it was touch and go. I
> think Epson developed the brown K ink originally because they were
> limited in nozzles. The only way to get a line/dot-free BW print was
> to mix brown/green K ink with other colors to up the amount of nozzles
> needed to make a neutral print with "high enough" physical resolution.
> I could get a semi-satisfactory neutral K print from the 9600 using
> 2880dpi and Smooth Diffusion dither form Studioprint. But this was
> about it. They probably still do this to make it harder for others to
> replicate their ink overlays, but that is just my cynicism bubbling up.
> 
> Walker
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by Terry Ritz

Walter, how do you find gloss differential & bronzing? The 3800 colour
samples I received about a year ago seemed to have a lot of gloss
differential.

Terry.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 12/03/10 11:35 AM, "Walker Blackwell" <forums@...> wrote:

> I've use the vivid CC inks in a 9600 no problem. There is no reason in
> my mind why it wouldn't work in the 3800. You're paying 30% of the
> cost of Epson inks. In the long run it's worth an extra 400 bucks on
> profiling hardware.
> 
> Walker

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by Terry Ritz

Sorry, I re-read your post more carefully. A standard ICC profile for the
3800 will dither colour ink into K since it expects a brown/green Epson K.

Still, using Jon's Selenium for PK, MK, LK and LLK would make it an easier
job to create QTR profiles in a 17", dual purpose printer scenario.

Jon, would a gloss overcoat be required in this scenario?

Terry.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 13/03/10 11:53 AM, "Terry Ritz" <t.ritz@...> wrote:

> Very interesting.
> 
> Walker, could this approach be undertaken using ICC profiling tools, say a
> Colormunki?
> 
> Terry.
> 
> 
> On 13/03/10 11:14 AM, "Walker Blackwell" <forums@...> wrote:
> 
>> I would also note that for anyone using a rip (say colorburst) and not
>> using Epson's default screening (Epson's default screening will add
>> color ink overlay into the netrual to compensate for the brown/green K
>> ink that Epson sells) you can buy 4 selenium inks from Jon Cone to
>> replace your PK MK LK LLK. Then, when you build your custom CMYK
>> profile, the setup will use more pure K ink when printing neutrals in
>> color images. This cuts matamerism way down and generally gives you a
>> superior profile for printing neutral images with small areas of full
>> color (one of the hardest printing procedures, and something today's
>> profilers still can't handle very well with mixed Ks like Epson). The
>> 3800/3880 (with it's 6 droplet sizes) are uniquelly up to this task.
>> Also, this method will give you a more stable (neutral) starting point
>> for building QuadtoneRIP profiles for your color inks.
>> 
>> This really only works best with the newest head tech starting on the
>> 3800/4880/3880/9880
>> 
>> I tried this on the 9600 back in the day, but it was touch and go. I
>> think Epson developed the brown K ink originally because they were
>> limited in nozzles. The only way to get a line/dot-free BW print was
>> to mix brown/green K ink with other colors to up the amount of nozzles
>> needed to make a neutral print with "high enough" physical resolution.
>> I could get a semi-satisfactory neutral K print from the 9600 using
>> 2880dpi and Smooth Diffusion dither form Studioprint. But this was
>> about it. They probably still do this to make it harder for others to
>> replicate their ink overlays, but that is just my cynicism bubbling up.
>> 
>> Walker
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-13 by Walker Blackwell

I can also confirm what Roger states after profiling well over 80  
papers with both CCK3 and CCvK3. While the CC K3 has slightly less  
gamut than Epson k3 (and less dmax with PK) the vivid M (and C for  
that matter) make up the difference. In general, fine art  
photographers aren't printing at the edges of their gamut anyway.  
Especially us BW folks.

Walker


On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:25 AM, rogerbarrett_hps wrote:

>
>
> I don't know about using the Epson vivid inks in a 3800, but I am  
> happily using the Conecolor vivid types with their refillable  
> cartridges in my 3800.
>
> I went for the vivid inks on the assumption that I was more likely  
> to get a colour gamut that matched the standard K3 gamut. I know  
> from doing hundreds of profiles for other people (my small business)  
> that third party inks seldom give the same colour gamut as OEM inks.  
> I was told by the people at Inkjet Mall that their vivid inks are OK  
> in the 3800 so went ahead and did it.
>
> In the event my initial assumption was confirmed. I have found that  
> the colour gamut of the Conecolor vivid set is marginally smaller  
> than I was achieving with the standard K3 set. This is after a bit  
> of fiddling to optimise driver settings and with careful profiling.
>
> The biggest difference that I found is in the Dmax with PK. I  
> believe this is because the Epson PK has black dye added to the  
> pigment, whereas the Conecolor is pure pigment. (I'm sure someone  
> will put me right on this if I'm wrong.) With MK I find that  
> Conecolor is a bit better than K3, again after optimising and  
> profiling.
>
> I should say that the prints I am producing with the Conecolor are  
> visually very similar to the K3 prints, although a side-by-side  
> comparison does show the slightly smaller gamut. The difference is  
> not big enough to send me running back to Epson inks - except maybe  
> the PK....
>
> Roger
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-14 by piezobw

I like to use the overcoat because it erases all gloss differential between the image and the paper - and that adds realism to the print for being a photograph as we once recalled. I don't like how ABW looks on a sheet. It sits on it. I prefer there be no difference between ink and paper if its going to be glossy. That's how a darkroom print looks and that's how I designed use of Peizography Gloss Optimizer - as a total sheet overcoat. The ABWs I saw on silver rag at SPE looked a bit inkjetty to me. Just an opinion.

But, if you're asking whether my shades 4&5 need GO to appear glossy. No they do not.

Jon



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Sorry, I re-read your post more carefully. A standard ICC profile for the
> 3800 will dither colour ink into K since it expects a brown/green Epson K.
> 
> Still, using Jon's Selenium for PK, MK, LK and LLK would make it an easier
> job to create QTR profiles in a 17", dual purpose printer scenario.
> 
> Jon, would a gloss overcoat be required in this scenario?
> 
> Terry.
> 
> 
> On 13/03/10 11:53 AM, "Terry Ritz" <t.ritz@...> wrote:
> 
> > Very interesting.
> > 
> > Walker, could this approach be undertaken using ICC profiling tools, say a
> > Colormunki?
> > 
> > Terry.
> > 
> > 
> > On 13/03/10 11:14 AM, "Walker Blackwell" <forums@...> wrote:
> > 
> >> I would also note that for anyone using a rip (say colorburst) and not
> >> using Epson's default screening (Epson's default screening will add
> >> color ink overlay into the netrual to compensate for the brown/green K
> >> ink that Epson sells) you can buy 4 selenium inks from Jon Cone to
> >> replace your PK MK LK LLK. Then, when you build your custom CMYK
> >> profile, the setup will use more pure K ink when printing neutrals in
> >> color images. This cuts matamerism way down and generally gives you a
> >> superior profile for printing neutral images with small areas of full
> >> color (one of the hardest printing procedures, and something today's
> >> profilers still can't handle very well with mixed Ks like Epson). The
> >> 3800/3880 (with it's 6 droplet sizes) are uniquelly up to this task.
> >> Also, this method will give you a more stable (neutral) starting point
> >> for building QuadtoneRIP profiles for your color inks.
> >> 
> >> This really only works best with the newest head tech starting on the
> >> 3800/4880/3880/9880
> >> 
> >> I tried this on the 9600 back in the day, but it was touch and go. I
> >> think Epson developed the brown K ink originally because they were
> >> limited in nozzles. The only way to get a line/dot-free BW print was
> >> to mix brown/green K ink with other colors to up the amount of nozzles
> >> needed to make a neutral print with "high enough" physical resolution.
> >> I could get a semi-satisfactory neutral K print from the 9600 using
> >> 2880dpi and Smooth Diffusion dither form Studioprint. But this was
> >> about it. They probably still do this to make it harder for others to
> >> replicate their ink overlays, but that is just my cynicism bubbling up.
> >> 
> >> Walker
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ------------------------------------
>

Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-14 by piezobw

Yes. Epson PK has dye. And yes it makes a great photo black as a result.  :)

Jon



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "rogerbarrett_hps" <roger@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about using the Epson vivid inks in a 3800, but I am happily using the Conecolor vivid types with their refillable cartridges in my 3800.
> 
> I went for the vivid inks on the assumption that I was more likely to get a colour gamut that matched the standard K3 gamut. I know from doing hundreds of profiles for other people (my small business) that third party inks seldom give the same colour gamut as OEM inks. I was told by the people at Inkjet Mall that their vivid inks are OK in the 3800 so went ahead and did it.
> 
> In the event my initial assumption was confirmed. I have found that the colour gamut of the Conecolor vivid set is marginally smaller than I was achieving with the standard K3 set. This is after a bit of fiddling to optimise driver settings and with careful profiling.
> 
> The biggest difference that I found is in the Dmax with PK. I believe this is because the Epson PK has black dye added to the pigment, whereas the Conecolor is pure pigment. (I'm sure someone will put me right on this if I'm wrong.) With MK I find that Conecolor is a bit better than K3, again after optimising and profiling.
> 
> I should say that the prints I am producing with the Conecolor are visually very similar to the K3 prints, although a side-by-side comparison does show the slightly smaller gamut. The difference is not big enough to send me running back to Epson inks - except maybe the PK....
> 
> Roger
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhd622005" <jhd622005@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > I read on the http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html
> > webpage the 3800 cannot use the newer 3880 Epson inks.
> > I would call the Cone office to be sure. The 3880 has a new print head and uses a different algorithim.
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "doggo@" <doggo@> wrote:
> > >
> > >      I have been printing a fairly large variety of papers on my 3800 for a couple of years and have never had a single problem that was not user induced. I have been seriously considering moving to the Cone inks and refillable cartridges. Cone also offers the Vivid ink in at attempt to provide that newer gamut from the inks of the 3880. 
> > >      The Cone website says that it is unknown whether the Vivid inks will work with the Epson drive and further that new profiles would be required, which could be created by the ColorMunki, also avalable at the Cone site.
> > >      I'm pretty sure that I will buy the Cone color inks for the 3800, but I am greatly intrigued at the idea of the increased gamut if I buy the Vivid inks. Of course, buying the system and then immediately shelling out another $400-to whatever for profiling is a bit of a puzzler. In short, is going for the Vivid colors worth it?
> > >      Does anybody have any experience or information about use of the Vivid inks (designed for the 3880) on a 3800? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
> > >      Thanks In Advance
> > > doggo
> > >
> >
>

[Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-14 by piezobw

It's in my own studio. It's not really a matte black formulation and I have not tried printing matte with it. I am really into glossy Piezography printing lately.

If you would like, I can send you 8oz to play around with. 

Jon


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Jon, where is this new very dense black? Is it on your website someplace? What if compared to Piezotone blacks? dMax better, worst? Can it not be used by us because you stated it is opaque?
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:46 AM, piezobw wrote:
> 
> > There is new very dense Piezography photo black which has greater dMax than MPS Black 1
>

[Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-14 by piezobw

Yes, but no gain really.

I think Walker's suggestions in using Piezography inks with ConeColor inks is improving on things and the way to go, than the other way around.

Jon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Sonners <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Jon,
> 
> Can ConeColor PK be substituted for MPS gloss compatible shade 1? Or  
> can ConeColor MK be substituted for K7 sepia shade 1?  Just thought  
> I'd ask.
> 
> Mark
> On Mar 13, 2010, at 7:46 AM, piezobw wrote:
> 
> > The 3800 can use the inks from the 3880 but not the carts.
> >
> > ConeColor ink is encapsulated fine pigment with a very narrow band  
> > distribution of particle sizes that can easily pass through any of  
> > the Epson print heads, including those designed solely for dye inks.
> >
> > The only issue is as Walker points out - color management. The  
> > ConeColor inks while designed to work with Epson ICC workflow, are  
> > not color compatible when moved from one color range printer family  
> > to another. The Epson RGB workflow is very specific. You can alter  
> > what the printer is using - but you need to employ ICC or some  
> > other workflow in order to make it work. Not so different that  
> > using monochromatic inks in a color printer...
> >
> > We sell the Vivid inks into the 1400 by example. But, we provide  
> > more than 40 ICC profiles to make that possible. Without the ICCs -  
> > the customer gets weird color. With the ICCs, the 1400 become a  
> > little fine art printmaking system. WE provide the ICCs because at  
> > sub $200 printers, no one should be investing in $400 color  
> > management packages in order to print pigment.
> >
> > We do have customers running K7 shades 4&5 to replace Epson Lk and  
> > LLK respectively. The density match for these is nearly exact. Some  
> > customers are using the Neutral shades 1,4,5 to help with their  
> > color management on fine art papers. All our shade 4&5 inks are  
> > gloss compatible - but the only sets which are fully gloss  
> > compatible are Selenium K7 and WarmNeutral K7 which are both triple- 
> > encapsulated pigments from shade 2-7. MPS Black is our triple  
> > encapsulated photo black. There is enough encapsulation of K7 1 to  
> > prevent it from clogging (that is what encapsulation does), but not  
> > enough to make it glossy compatible.
> >
> > There is new very dense Piezography photo black which has greater  
> > dMax than MPS Black 1 - and has a very warm base undertone. But  
> > it's so warm that it can not replace Epson Photo Black without  
> > ICCs. I use this ink for my backlit process because it's fully opaque.
> >
> > The short is that if we can remove the color inks from any Epson  
> > printer and run monochromatic ink sets - it falls in line that we  
> > can put any color scheme into a printer as well. The issues are not  
> > mechanical (unless low quality inks are used), but rather a color  
> > management issue pertaining to the OEM printer driver. There really  
> > is and never has been a limit to what one can imagine as a  
> > preferred ink set. The only limitations are imposed by the OEM in  
> > an effort to thwart the use of non-OEM inks.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Jon Cone
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhd622005"  
> > <jhd622005@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I read on the http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/ 
> > index.html
> > > webpage the 3800 cannot use the newer 3880 Epson inks.
> > > I would call the Cone office to be sure. The 3880 has a new print  
> > head and uses a different algorithim.
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "doggo@"  
> > <doggo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I have been printing a fairly large variety of papers on my  
> > 3800 for a couple of years and have never had a single problem that  
> > was not user induced. I have been seriously considering moving to  
> > the Cone inks and refillable cartridges. Cone also offers the Vivid  
> > ink in at attempt to provide that newer gamut from the inks of the  
> > 3880.
> > > > The Cone website says that it is unknown whether the Vivid inks  
> > will work with the Epson drive and further that new profiles would  
> > be required, which could be created by the ColorMunki, also  
> > avalable at the Cone site.
> > > > I'm pretty sure that I will buy the Cone color inks for the  
> > 3800, but I am greatly intrigued at the idea of the increased gamut  
> > if I buy the Vivid inks. Of course, buying the system and then  
> > immediately shelling out another $400-to whatever for profiling is  
> > a bit of a puzzler. In short, is going for the Vivid colors worth it?
> > > > Does anybody have any experience or information about use of  
> > the Vivid inks (designed for the 3880) on a 3800? Any information  
> > would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > Thanks In Advance
> > > > doggo
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-14 by piezobw

Mark,

I just dug up my Suntest notes on the three inks: Epson Photo Black, Piezography MPS Photo Black, and my new Photo Black (still un-named).

After 100 Megalux 

Epson PK  start:  7.5 -0.1 -1.3  end:   9.4 -0.1 -1.7
MPS PK    start: 12.6 -0.3 -2.4  end:  12.1 -0.6 -2.8
new PK    start:  8.9 -0.8 -3.5  end:   6.6 -0.7 -3.0

I believe (right now at least), that we are the only ink manufacturer encapsulating dye molecules. We need less dye than Epson PK. We use more pigment than Epson PK. It makes quite a difference.

Email me off list for which printer you wish to test it in.

Jon




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Jon, where is this new very dense black? Is it on your website someplace? What if compared to Piezotone blacks? dMax better, worst? Can it not be used by us because you stated it is opaque?
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:46 AM, piezobw wrote:
> 
> > There is new very dense Piezography photo black which has greater dMax than MPS Black 1
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Cone Color Inks for Epson 3800-K3 or Vivid

2010-03-14 by Mark Sonners

Jon,

Can ConeColor PK be substituted for MPS gloss compatible shade 1? Or  
can ConeColor MK be substituted for K7 sepia shade 1?  Just thought  
I'd ask.

Mark
On Mar 13, 2010, at 7:46 AM, piezobw wrote:

> The 3800 can use the inks from the 3880 but not the carts.
>
> ConeColor ink is encapsulated fine pigment with a very narrow band  
> distribution of particle sizes that can easily pass through any of  
> the Epson print heads, including those designed solely for dye inks.
>
> The only issue is as Walker points out - color management. The  
> ConeColor inks while designed to work with Epson ICC workflow, are  
> not color compatible when moved from one color range printer family  
> to another. The Epson RGB workflow is very specific. You can alter  
> what the printer is using - but you need to employ ICC or some  
> other workflow in order to make it work. Not so different that  
> using monochromatic inks in a color printer...
>
> We sell the Vivid inks into the 1400 by example. But, we provide  
> more than 40 ICC profiles to make that possible. Without the ICCs -  
> the customer gets weird color. With the ICCs, the 1400 become a  
> little fine art printmaking system. WE provide the ICCs because at  
> sub $200 printers, no one should be investing in $400 color  
> management packages in order to print pigment.
>
> We do have customers running K7 shades 4&5 to replace Epson Lk and  
> LLK respectively. The density match for these is nearly exact. Some  
> customers are using the Neutral shades 1,4,5 to help with their  
> color management on fine art papers. All our shade 4&5 inks are  
> gloss compatible - but the only sets which are fully gloss  
> compatible are Selenium K7 and WarmNeutral K7 which are both triple- 
> encapsulated pigments from shade 2-7. MPS Black is our triple  
> encapsulated photo black. There is enough encapsulation of K7 1 to  
> prevent it from clogging (that is what encapsulation does), but not  
> enough to make it glossy compatible.
>
> There is new very dense Piezography photo black which has greater  
> dMax than MPS Black 1 - and has a very warm base undertone. But  
> it's so warm that it can not replace Epson Photo Black without  
> ICCs. I use this ink for my backlit process because it's fully opaque.
>
> The short is that if we can remove the color inks from any Epson  
> printer and run monochromatic ink sets - it falls in line that we  
> can put any color scheme into a printer as well. The issues are not  
> mechanical (unless low quality inks are used), but rather a color  
> management issue pertaining to the OEM printer driver. There really  
> is and never has been a limit to what one can imagine as a  
> preferred ink set. The only limitations are imposed by the OEM in  
> an effort to thwart the use of non-OEM inks.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jon Cone
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhd622005"  
> <jhd622005@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I read on the http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/ 
> index.html
> > webpage the 3800 cannot use the newer 3880 Epson inks.
> > I would call the Cone office to be sure. The 3880 has a new print  
> head and uses a different algorithim.
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "doggo@"  
> <doggo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have been printing a fairly large variety of papers on my  
> 3800 for a couple of years and have never had a single problem that  
> was not user induced. I have been seriously considering moving to  
> the Cone inks and refillable cartridges. Cone also offers the Vivid  
> ink in at attempt to provide that newer gamut from the inks of the  
> 3880.
> > > The Cone website says that it is unknown whether the Vivid inks  
> will work with the Epson drive and further that new profiles would  
> be required, which could be created by the ColorMunki, also  
> avalable at the Cone site.
> > > I'm pretty sure that I will buy the Cone color inks for the  
> 3800, but I am greatly intrigued at the idea of the increased gamut  
> if I buy the Vivid inks. Of course, buying the system and then  
> immediately shelling out another $400-to whatever for profiling is  
> a bit of a puzzler. In short, is going for the Vivid colors worth it?
> > > Does anybody have any experience or information about use of  
> the Vivid inks (designed for the 3880) on a 3800? Any information  
> would be greatly appreciated.
> > > Thanks In Advance
> > > doggo
> > >
> >
>
>
> 



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