Digital BW, The Print

I have a couple of questions that are clearly off-topic for the list, although I'm pretty sure some of you have exposure / expertise in this area, or could at least offer a legitimate guess. As a result, please feel free to contact me off-list if that's more appropriate.

I am wondering how well a ColorMunki would work in conjunction with the Argyll CMS for creating high quality, colour prints.

The ColorMunki seems to get mixed reviews, although I suspect that the current software release is producing reasonably good colour profiles now. In any event, the instrument itself seems pretty solid. One could start with the ColorMunki and its bundled software, and then move to the Argyll CMS to take things to the next level. That at least, is my theory.

How long is the learning curve for the approach noted above (ColorMunki / Argyll)? I've been around QTR, b/w curve creation, and color profile creation via SpyderPrint for years, but I've never worked with a colour RIP.

It was suggested that substituting Cone Selenium for Epson K, LK and LLK could be advantageous in the neutral areas of a colour print (coupled with Cone Colour inks). I'm already using Cone Selenium for my b/w work, so this approach would also bring economies of scale. Would a ColorMunki / Argyll toolset position me to do this? 

Thanks all.

Terry.

There is an ArgyllCMS mailing list that may serve you better with this 
question:

http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms



-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions

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Thank you Ernst. I just posted my questions over there.

I'd still love to hear from anyone who has used either Argyll CMS and/or the
ColorMunki. 

Terry.

On 27/03/10 4:05 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <edinkla@...> wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> There is an ArgyllCMS mailing list that may serve you better with this
> question:
> 
> http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms
> 
>

Terry Ritz schreef:
> Thank you Ernst. I just posted my questions over there.
> 
> I'd still love to hear from anyone who has used either Argyll CMS and/or the
> ColorMunki. 
> 
> Terry.

No experience yet but some weeks ago I made the ArgyllCMS download and 
enlisted.
With the new Eye 1 basic that I have it should be easier to let it work. 
I will continue to use the HP Z model integrated profile creation but 
for varnished canvas etc an external solution is easier/better. The 
SpectroCam that I also have isn't supported as well in ArgyllCMS.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

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Terry, I've been using Argyll for a couple of years now.It works very well for me. I only use it for color ink profiling however although I do add a significant number of varied, near neutral samples to the test pattern. At first, I had to use it by feeding it measurements from a text file via indirection as I didn't have the type of spectro that it supports  (Was using a large lab type spherical spectro for getting data). I now use it with a dtp20(pulse).

You should know that none of the available profile software will necessarily do a very good job unless the ink set you are using is close to the oem inks. They all need a reasonably well linearized printer to work best. In my case, I found I needed a rip to accomplish that because I was using an inkset too much different from Epson's to do well. I use Linux and the Gutenprint software under Gimp to set up and linearize the printer and inks for profiling and printing of color. For B&W I use QTR as it's softproofing capability, when used properly, allows for it's "create icc" program to give profiles that show what tints you will get from an inkset for any particular paper.

My advice, for whatever it might be worth (or not) would be for you to ask lots of questions about how to use QTR in it's user forum, as Ernst suggested.

Regards,
Duane




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:

>
> Thank you Ernst. I just posted my questions over there.

> 
> I'd still love to hear from anyone who has used either Argyll CMS and/or the
> ColorMunki. 
> 
> Terry.
> 
> On 27/03/10 4:05 AM, "Ernst Dinkla" <edinkla@...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > There is an ArgyllCMS mailing list that may serve you better with this
> > question:
> > 
> > http://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms
> > 
> >
>

On 29/03/10 12:29 PM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote:

> You should know that none of the available profile software will necessarily
> do a very good job unless the ink set you are using is close to the oem inks.
> They all need a reasonably well linearized printer to work best.

That's really good to know.

> In my case, I 
> found I needed a rip to accomplish that because I was using an inkset too much
> different from Epson's to do well. I use Linux and the Gutenprint software
> under Gimp to set up and linearize the printer and inks for profiling and
> printing of color.

So, it sounds like Gutenprint under Gimp provides RIP functionality. Do I
have that correct? If so, will I gain much going this route if I'm simply
printing with OEM inks (e.g. K3)?

> For B&W I use QTR as it's softproofing capability, when
> used properly, allows for it's "create icc" program to give profiles that show
> what tints you will get from an inkset for any particular paper.

Yes, Create ICC is a great tool.

> My advice, for whatever it might be worth (or not) would be for you to ask
> lots of questions about how to use QTR in it's user forum, as Ernst suggested.

Yes, the ArgyllCMS mailing list looks pretty active (I assume that's the
forum you're referring to).

Thanks Duane.

Terry.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:
> 
> So, it sounds like Gutenprint under Gimp provides RIP functionality. Do I
> have that correct? 
> 
Yes.It has an array of tools that offer full control over the printer and ink set for a large number of different printers.

>If so, will I gain much going this route if I'm simply
> printing with OEM inks (e.g. K3)?
>
No. I don't think you would need a rip if all you are doing is printing color using the oem solution. You will though if you start down the road of changing relationships between black/grays and RGB mixes as grays from those established by the manufacturer.
> 
> Yes, the ArgyllCMS mailing list looks pretty active (I assume that's the
> forum you're referring to).
>
That is an excellent forum for learning the ins and outs of Argyl as well as digging deeply into the various types of profiles and connections and their uses. There are folks posting there that know far more than I likely will ever have time to learn. I actually was referring though to the QTR forum which you apparently already know about.
My understanding, possibly in error, is that you want to control the actual tint of your chosen inks, ie: the peizo B&W ones, beyond what you can get with different paper choices alone and I believe that you mentioned wanting to do so with a minimum of color inks introduced into the mix.
If so, you can get that by using the QTR software itself without the need for Argyl or Gutenprint at all. It's facilities aren't restricted to oem inks or their matches and as a rip itself it offers more direct control than the oem drivers do as I understand it. IMO it would allow a much shorter learning curve and time to success than the other route offers.
If, however, you want to substitute the peizo inks for the normal grays in a full oem set and still produce color prints from the result as well, you will have to go the profiling software and a RIP way as has been mentioned before here and in the Argyl forum.

Regards,
Duane
>

On 30/03/10 8:30 PM, "dlruckus" <dlruckus@...> wrote:

>> 
> I actually was referring though to the QTR forum which you
> apparently already know about.
> My understanding, possibly in error, is that you want to control the actual
> tint of your chosen inks, ie: the peizo B&W ones, beyond what you can get with
> different paper choices alone and I believe that you mentioned wanting to do
> so with a minimum of color inks introduced into the mix.
> If so, you can get that by using the QTR software itself without the need for
> Argyl or Gutenprint at all. It's facilities aren't restricted to oem inks or
> their matches and as a rip itself it offers more direct control than the oem
> drivers do as I understand it. IMO it would allow a much shorter learning
> curve and time to success than the other route offers.
> If, however, you want to substitute the peizo inks for the normal grays in a
> full oem set and still produce color prints from the result as well, you will
> have to go the profiling software and a RIP way as has been mentioned before
> here and in the Argyl forum.

That latter is what I'm asking about, an ink configuration where neutral
grays are substituted for Epson's OEM grays. I believe that the densities
are close, so I suspect there is benefit in this setup even while using the
Epson drives and a custom colour profile. However, I understand that a RIP
is required to gain control over how the grays are generated, and to ensure
that they remain colour free. It's encouraging to know that Gutenprint
offers a way to get there.

QTR is an outstanding tool, and I appreciate all that Roy does for our
community. When I started out I was using only K and LK in a 2200. I moved
to Cone inks a few years ago, and now use QTR for profiling / linearity. My
tools for toning are ink selection and paper choice.

Thank you for all the information, Duane.

Terry.

Terry Ritz schreef:

> That latter is what I'm asking about, an ink configuration where neutral
> grays are substituted for Epson's OEM grays. I believe that the densities
> are close, so I suspect there is benefit in this setup even while using the
> Epson drives and a custom colour profile. However, I understand that a RIP
> is required to gain control over how the grays are generated, and to ensure
> that they remain colour free. It's encouraging to know that Gutenprint
> offers a way to get there.
> 
> QTR is an outstanding tool, and I appreciate all that Roy does for our
> community. When I started out I was using only K and LK in a 2200. I moved
> to Cone inks a few years ago, and now use QTR for profiling / linearity. My
> tools for toning are ink selection and paper choice.
> 
> Thank you for all the information, Duane.
> 
> Terry.

Terry,

I'm not sure but I guess you want to keep normal color printing on your 
printer while it can be switched more easily to custom B&W printing too. 
For your custom color inkset this may be interesting: PhotoPrint is a 
GUI on the Gutenprint base. I have it running on an XP Windows machine 
here. There's a Linux GUI too. Unlike normal RGB drivers it seems to 
give control on the GCR and more fundamental media preset variables. 
Some not so interesting features aboard too. I installed to see whether 
it would allow a custom B&W inkset on HP models. There are however more 
features for Epson printers aboard. There's a video on the website that 
explains the functions. The writer is an ArgyllCMS expert I think

http://www.blackfiveimaging.co.uk/index.php?article=02Software/01PhotoPrint.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

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