Doepfer

Hi list,

Dividing an octave in 12 equal steps is fine, but what I would like 
even more is a quantizing module that can divide an octave in 'n' 
steps

n = 1: 1 step of 1200 cents
n = 2: 2 steps of 600 cents
n = 3: 3 x 400 cents etc. etc., maybe up to n = 25

note: a transpose-option (like in the a-156) should transpose in 'n-
ed' steps as well. Unusual sounds gauranteed!

Good idea or am I missing something? Has somebody allready built 
a module that can do this?

greetings

Anton

hello anton,

i tried this with reaktor a few months/years ago,
and there is one problem with it.
the whole show sounds just "out of tune" when
the octave is divided in a range that doesn't fit
to the semitone scale. dividing an octave by 7 for
example will only give you wrong notes, but it won't give
you new sounds, just old sounds which are out of tune.
ok, maybe somebody wants that, but i can't imagine why.

only my 2 cents

best wishes

ingo


--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Coops" <dubshot@x...> 
wrote:

>
> Hi list,
> 
> Dividing an octave in 12 equal steps is fine, but what I would like 
> even more is a quantizing module that can divide an octave in 'n' 
> steps
> 
> n = 1: 1 step of 1200 cents
> n = 2: 2 steps of 600 cents
> n = 3: 3 x 400 cents etc. etc., maybe up to n = 25
> 
> note: a transpose-option (like in the a-156) should transpose in 'n-
> ed' steps as well. Unusual sounds gauranteed!
> 
> Good idea or am I missing something? Has somebody allready built 
> a module that can do this?
> 
> greetings
> 
> Anton
>

hello florian,

thats a very good point.
maybe i was too straight with my reaktor-approach,
i haven't tried it with fm. thanks for the hint.

best wishes

ingo



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Florian Anwander 
<Florian.Anwander@c...> wrote:
>
> Hi Ingo
> 
> > to the semitone scale. dividing an octave by 7 for
> > example will only give you wrong notes, but it won't give
> > you new sounds, just old sounds which are out of tune.
> > ok, maybe somebody wants that, but i can't imagine why.
> E.g. for controlled FM: tune the carrrier VCO with the original CV, 
and 

> a the modulator VCO with the stepped CV.
> 
> 
> Does very nice things.
> 
> Florian
>

Hi Ingo

> to the semitone scale. dividing an octave by 7 for
> example will only give you wrong notes, but it won't give
> you new sounds, just old sounds which are out of tune.
> ok, maybe somebody wants that, but i can't imagine why.
E.g. for controlled FM: tune the carrrier VCO with the original CV, and 
a the modulator VCO with the stepped CV.


Does very nice things.

Florian

I'm sorry Ingo.

Anton is going into microtonality here.
I personally think this kind of a quantizer would be cool.
Out of tune does not exist, not fitting with a certain tonality would
be a better description.

Ernst.

On 11/3/05, selfoscillate <synaptic_music@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  hello anton,
>
>  i tried this with reaktor a few months/years ago,
>  and there is one problem with it.
>  the whole show sounds just "out of tune" when
>  the octave is divided in a range that doesn't fit
>  to the semitone scale. dividing an octave by 7 for
>  example will only give you wrong notes, but it won't give
>  you new sounds, just old sounds which are out of tune.
>  ok, maybe somebody wants that, but i can't imagine why.
>
>  only my 2 cents
>
>  best wishes
>
>  ingo
>
>
>  --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Coops" <dubshot@x...>
>  wrote:
>  >
>  > Hi list,
>  >
>  > Dividing an octave in 12 equal steps is fine, but what I would like
>  > even more is a quantizing module that can divide an octave in 'n'
>  > steps
>  >
>  > n = 1: 1 step of 1200 cents
>  > n = 2: 2 steps of 600 cents
>  > n = 3: 3 x 400 cents etc. etc., maybe up to n = 25
>  >
>  > note: a transpose-option (like in the a-156) should transpose in 'n-
>  > ed' steps as well. Unusual sounds gauranteed!
>  >
>  > Good idea or am I missing something? Has somebody allready built
>  > a module that can do this?
>  >
>  > greetings
>  >
>  > Anton
>  >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Hi Ingo,

Out of tune-ness does not only come from the scale you use, but 
also from the timbre that you use in a given scale (and of course the 
combinations of notes you play). It can take some time before you 
find a good combination, but there are some tricks.  

So in the module I suggest, for *each* value of 'n', or for each 
scale, you have *specific* combinations of notes and timbres that 
sound good or don't sound good.

One advantage of the approach I suggested would be that you can 
more easily modulate in equally divided scales than in other unusual 
or experimental scales. It's also basic, a bit like the freqency divider, 
so that should increase the possibilities for mis-use :-)

Anton

On 3 Nov 2005, at 16:11, selfoscillate wrote:

> 
> hello anton,
> 
> i tried this with reaktor a few months/years ago,
> and there is one problem with it.
> the whole show sounds just "out of tune" when
> the octave is divided in a range that doesn't fit
> to the semitone scale. dividing an octave by 7 for
> example will only give you wrong notes, but it won't give
> you new sounds, just old sounds which are out of tune.
> ok, maybe somebody wants that, but i can't imagine why.
> 
> only my 2 cents
> 
> best wishes
> 
> ingo
> 
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Coops" <dubshot@x...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi list,
> > 
> > Dividing an octave in 12 equal steps is fine, but what I would like 
> > even more is a quantizing module that can divide an octave in 'n' 
> > steps
> > 
> > n = 1: 1 step of 1200 cents
> > n = 2: 2 steps of 600 cents
> > n = 3: 3 x 400 cents etc. etc., maybe up to n = 25
> > 
> > note: a transpose-option (like in the a-156) should transpose in 'n-
> > ed' steps as well. Unusual sounds gauranteed!
> > 
> > Good idea or am I missing something? Has somebody allready built 
> > a module that can do this?
> > 
> > greetings
> > 
> > Anton
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>

hello anton, ernst, florian,

all good points. thanks for making me understand.

best wishes

ingo




--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Coops" <dubshot@x...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi Ingo,
> 
> Out of tune-ness does not only come from the scale you use, but 
> also from the timbre that you use in a given scale (and of course 
the 
> combinations of notes you play). It can take some time before you 
> find a good combination, but there are some tricks.  
> 
> So in the module I suggest, for *each* value of 'n', or for each 
> scale, you have *specific* combinations of notes and timbres that 
> sound good or don't sound good.
> 
> One advantage of the approach I suggested would be that you can 
> more easily modulate in equally divided scales than in other 
unusual 
> or experimental scales. It's also basic, a bit like the freqency 
divider, 
> so that should increase the possibilities for mis-use :-)
> 
> Anton
> 
> On 3 Nov 2005, at 16:11, selfoscillate wrote:
> 
> > 
> > hello anton,
> > 
> > i tried this with reaktor a few months/years ago,
> > and there is one problem with it.
> > the whole show sounds just "out of tune" when
> > the octave is divided in a range that doesn't fit
> > to the semitone scale. dividing an octave by 7 for
> > example will only give you wrong notes, but it won't give
> > you new sounds, just old sounds which are out of tune.
> > ok, maybe somebody wants that, but i can't imagine why.
> > 
> > only my 2 cents
> > 
> > best wishes
> > 
> > ingo
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Coops" <dubshot@x> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi list,
> > > 
> > > Dividing an octave in 12 equal steps is fine, but what I would 
like 
> > > even more is a quantizing module that can divide an octave 
in 'n' 
> > > steps
> > > 
> > > n = 1: 1 step of 1200 cents
> > > n = 2: 2 steps of 600 cents
> > > n = 3: 3 x 400 cents etc. etc., maybe up to n = 25
> > > 
> > > note: a transpose-option (like in the a-156) should transpose 
in 'n-
> > > ed' steps as well. Unusual sounds gauranteed!
> > > 
> > > Good idea or am I missing something? Has somebody allready 
built 

> > > a module that can do this?
> > > 
> > > greetings
> > > 
> > > Anton
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> >
>

Hello,

Perhaps you should explore Microtonal music.  Yahoo search even  
turned up a site for computer programs that will do it.
For now check this out...

http://www.microtonal.freeservers.com/

sfrules

Hi sfrules,

If you would like to know more about the use of scales and tunings 
in electronic music you could start by checking out what William 
Sethares has to say about this

http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/ttss.html

About software: if you want to experiment with tunings etc. you could 
use samplers, synthesizers, and even my old vintage keys module 
will do. Also there are some fine specialised programs like scala

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/

But I don't want software because it gives me RSI!! :-))  I would like 
to experiment with tunings using VC, but afaik such modules are not 
on the market yet, but I'm not 100% sure. 

Anton

On 4 Nov 2005, at 7:59, sfrules wrote:

> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Perhaps you should explore Microtonal music.  Yahoo search even  
> turned up a site for computer programs that will do it.
> For now check this out...
> 
> http://www.microtonal.freeservers.com/
> 
> sfrules
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>

Hail, Anton!

(This post is gonna be a hodge-podge.  Begging forgiveness in  
advance.  You're not the only one with verbal diarrhea, Morbs.)

I read your post and was remembering a link someone had posted to a  
microtonal site in the last year or so.   I waited for them to help  
you.  Nothing.

It seems you were the one in the first place!

Your post is awesome!  I thirst for knowledge.  Maybe the right word  
is lust.
I've read John Backus' book THE ACOUSTICAL FOUNDATIONS OF MUSIC
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393090965/ 
qid=1131198835/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-8390523-9984722? 
v=glance&s=books&n=507846
and found it fascinating.  (If you haven't read it, you will too!)   
Now I find I must absorb Sethares' book!

Knowing you may also have trod in these other footsteps as well, may  
I recommend
Wendy Carlos' CD's, BEAUTY IN THE BEAST   and   TALES OF HEAVEN & HELL.
She uses microtonal to advantage.

I suppose it's obvious to you and everyone else that merely  
attenuating keyboard voltage will give you octaves of any number of  
steps you wish.  I recall reading somewhere that there are two other  
mathematical divisions of an octave that create consonance -  
something like 29 and 36 steps.  Do you know what those actual  
divisions may be?   Thanking in advance.

If you've been around a while - and I think you have - you may recall  
my supplication for a selective quantizer.  Without going into  
detail, I'll just attach the jpg in the middle of this post.


  ----------


Permit me to say that your quantizer suggestion goes even further and  
would make an exciting module.  I don't know many Roger would sell -  
we'd probably have to get a second mortgage on our first-born to buy  
one.

Let me wrap this up with a bizarre, but true tale.
I poked deeply into Sethares' site and found a sound bite for Chapter  
8 A BELL, A ROCK, A CRYSTAL: DUET FOR MORPHINE AND CYMBAL.

Let me set the stage.  I understand consonance and dissonance.  I  
knew what to expect.
My home stereo connection is kaput.  I had to play it on my computer  
with the volume cranked up.  I have a head cold.  My hearing is  
f*cked up.  Everything sounds like it is resonating in a pipe the  
wrong size.

So I started the bite.  Then our home phone started to ring with its  
chintzy beeping of Grieg's Hall of the Mountain King.

All I can say is, Lay off the cattle prod, Morby!

sfrules



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We have a saying here in The Netherlands..
'Now that the bear is let out'

In this case the microtonal bear....

Try this: http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/english/index.html

Hey sfrules 

Thanks for the support :-)

> Now I find I must absorb Sethares' book!

Be sure to get the second edition from 2005, it's improved.
 
> Knowing you may also have trod in these other footsteps as well, may  
> I recommend
> Wendy Carlos' CD's, BEAUTY IN THE BEAST   and   TALES OF HEAVEN & HELL.
> She uses microtonal to advantage.

Thanks, I will keep those in mind. She is also quoted by Sethares.

> I suppose it's obvious to you and everyone else that merely  
> attenuating keyboard voltage will give you octaves of any number of  
> steps you wish.  

True, but this method is not allways what you want, especially the 
user-friendliness, but also the possibilities. As far as I know it's 
impossible e.g. to use the a-156 quantiser (12-tet) to divide an 
octave in 5 equal steps. It seems you can only shrink the intervals, 
but not increase them. But perhaps I'm missing a clever trick here? 

Also the future Doepfer cv-keyboard might be handy.

I recall reading somewhere that there are two other  
> mathematical divisions of an octave that create consonance -  
> something like 29 and 36 steps.  Do you know what those actual  
> divisions may be?   Thanking in advance.

I wouldn't know what you mean, as consonance is not just a matter 
of division of the octave. But my guess is that you mean 19 instead 
of 29. 

> If you've been around a while - and I think you have - you may recall  
> my supplication for a selective quantizer.  Without going into  
> detail, I'll just attach the jpg in the middle of this post.

oops, it's gone I think?

Greetings

Anton

'Lo!

Found this on another group.
I'm sure if you haven't already been there, that
it's what you're looking for!

---> John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

sfrules