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Patches and discussion for Ensoniq VFX family

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Thread

SYSEX problems

SYSEX problems

2003-07-03 by weidmanconsulting

I have been having difficulties uploading SYSEX files to my VFX (ROM 
v1.7 KPC v2.03).  I am using a SYSEX tool called MidiOX for the 
transfers on my Win98 laptop.  I frequently receive "MIDI SYS-EX 
RECIEVE" errors on the VFX.

I have SYSEX files from the files area of this group's site.  If I 
try to upload a single sound file it works - most of the time.  On 
occasion I get the SYSEX error, especially if I send one sound and 
then initiate the transfer of a second sound.

When I try to upload a full set of 60 sounds I get the SYSEX receive 
error every time.  I end up with the first internal bank having the 
first few sounds messed up (garbage), and the remainder of the banks 
with the sounds they had before the transfer.

I also reinitialized the VFX and dumped the 60 internal programs to 
my PC and saved the SYSEX file.  I then modified a few sounds on the 
VFX and tried to upload the SYSEX file I had just saved and still 
received the same error.

Any thoughts on what's causing my problems?

Thanks,

Will

Re: [Ensoniq-VFX-SD] SYSEX problems

2003-07-03 by Mick Roeg

Dude
  Quit playing with toys and get the SOUND LIBRARIAN.
It uploads real good. I've never had a problem and I
had to edit for weeks till I got my VFX tweeked the
way I wanted it.

http://www.thedx7.co.uk/index.html

for the Sound Lib. It's a DX7 site but the librarian
works on lots of keyboards.
Then go here:

http://neopatch.hypermart.net/

to find some real cool patches. All instructions are
in the help files and it really really works!  Roegster

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Re: [Ensoniq-VFX-SD] SYSEX problems

2003-07-03 by Roi de la plage

Yes, try another SysEx dumper. FreeLoader from Alesis
is ultra-simple but does its job !

If the dump does not work with FreeLoader also, check
out the SysEx file or change your MIDI cable.
I believe that many members could send you a "clean"
SysEx file for testing.

Fred

 --- Mick Roeg <roegster@...> a \ufffdcrit\ufffd: > Dude
>   Quit playing with toys and get the SOUND
> LIBRARIAN.
> It uploads real good. I've never had a problem and I
> had to edit for weeks till I got my VFX tweeked the
> way I wanted it.
> 
> http://www.thedx7.co.uk/index.html
> 
> for the Sound Lib. It's a DX7 site but the librarian
> works on lots of keyboards.
> Then go here:
> 
> http://neopatch.hypermart.net/
> 
> to find some real cool patches. All instructions are
> in the help files and it really really works! 
> Roegster
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>  

=====
--
Si la pierre tombe sur l'oeuf, malheur a l'oeuf,
Si l'oeuf tombe sur la pierre, malheur a l'oeuf.
   Frederic (roidelaplage@...)

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et en fran\ufffdais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

Re: SYSEX problems

2003-07-03 by weidmanconsulting

I had tried SoundLib in the past, but the program was unable to 
detect my USB MIDI interface.  All of the other programs I have 
tried do recognize it, so I gave up on SoundLib.

I will try the Alesis product and see if the results are different.  
Since I tried SYSEX files both from the files area of this forum as 
well as new ones generated by my VFX, it doesn't seem like the data 
formatting is the issue.  I had asked in a previous post if there 
were any SYSEX compatibility issues between dumps from the various 
flavors of VFX (thinking that a VFX-SD dump to my VFX wouldn't 
work), but learned that there were not issues with this.

The USB interface is new (Yamaha) and it seems to work fine with 
sequencers etc. that I have tried with my VFX.

--- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com, Roi de la plage 
<roidelaplage@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Yes, try another SysEx dumper. FreeLoader from Alesis
> is ultra-simple but does its job !
> 
> If the dump does not work with FreeLoader also, check
> out the SysEx file or change your MIDI cable.
> I believe that many members could send you a "clean"
> SysEx file for testing.
> 
> Fred
> 
>  --- Mick Roeg <roegster@y...> a écrit : > Dude
> >   Quit playing with toys and get the SOUND
> > LIBRARIAN.
> > It uploads real good. I've never had a problem and I
> > had to edit for weeks till I got my VFX tweeked the
> > way I wanted it.
> > 
> > http://www.thedx7.co.uk/index.html
> > 
> > for the Sound Lib. It's a DX7 site but the librarian
> > works on lots of keyboards.
> > Then go here:
> > 
> > http://neopatch.hypermart.net/
> > 
> > to find some real cool patches. All instructions are
> > in the help files and it really really works! 
> > Roegster
> > 
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> >  
> 
> =====
> --
> Si la pierre tombe sur l'oeuf, malheur a l'oeuf,
> Si l'oeuf tombe sur la pierre, malheur a l'oeuf.
>    Frederic (roidelaplage@y...)
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et en français !
> Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

Re: SYSEX problems

2003-07-04 by supergidi

Have you ever tested Emagic SoundDiver? I use it with my VFX-SD and 
it works really good. Emagic offers an older version for free 
download as far as I know.
Gisi

--- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com, "weidmanconsulting" 
<weidmanconsulting@y...> wrote:
> I had tried SoundLib in the past, but the program was unable to 
> detect my USB MIDI interface.  All of the other programs I have 
> tried do recognize it, so I gave up on SoundLib.
> 
> I will try the Alesis product and see if the results are 
different.  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Since I tried SYSEX files both from the files area of this forum as 
> well as new ones generated by my VFX, it doesn't seem like the data 
> formatting is the issue.  I had asked in a previous post if there 
> were any SYSEX compatibility issues between dumps from the various 
> flavors of VFX (thinking that a VFX-SD dump to my VFX wouldn't 
> work), but learned that there were not issues with this.
> 
> The USB interface is new (Yamaha) and it seems to work fine with 
> sequencers etc. that I have tried with my VFX.
> 
> --- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com, Roi de la plage 
> <roidelaplage@y...> wrote:
> > Yes, try another SysEx dumper. FreeLoader from Alesis
> > is ultra-simple but does its job !
> > 
> > If the dump does not work with FreeLoader also, check
> > out the SysEx file or change your MIDI cable.
> > I believe that many members could send you a "clean"
> > SysEx file for testing.
> > 
> > Fred
> > 
> >  --- Mick Roeg <roegster@y...> a écrit : > Dude
> > >   Quit playing with toys and get the SOUND
> > > LIBRARIAN.
> > > It uploads real good. I've never had a problem and I
> > > had to edit for weeks till I got my VFX tweeked the
> > > way I wanted it.
> > > 
> > > http://www.thedx7.co.uk/index.html
> > > 
> > > for the Sound Lib. It's a DX7 site but the librarian
> > > works on lots of keyboards.
> > > Then go here:
> > > 
> > > http://neopatch.hypermart.net/
> > > 
> > > to find some real cool patches. All instructions are
> > > in the help files and it really really works! 
> > > Roegster
> > > 
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> > >  
> > 
> > =====
> > --
> > Si la pierre tombe sur l'oeuf, malheur a l'oeuf,
> > Si l'oeuf tombe sur la pierre, malheur a l'oeuf.
> >    Frederic (roidelaplage@y...)
> > 
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et en français !
> > Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

Re: SYSEX problems

2003-07-08 by weidmanconsulting

My SYSEX woes continue.  I tried the Alesis tool recommended, with 
the same errors resulting.  (The Emagic ones I was able to find were 
Macintosh-based, and I don't have a Mac.)  I also dragged my VFX 
over near enough to my home office desktop PC to hook it up to the 
soundcard MIDI/Joystick port.  Soundlib does work on that PC and I 
was able to successfully transfer a bank with that combination.  
Unfortunately, I cannot use my office PC long-term for this task.

So, in summary, I can't get Soundlib working on my laptop because it 
doesn't recognize any MIDI device drivers running there.  Every 
other tool I use on my laptop recognizes my Yamaha USB MIDI 
interface, but fails to send and receive the SYSEX correctly.

Does anyone have a Win 98 PC & Soundlib working with a USB MIDI 
interface of any sort???

Also, isnt' SYSEX just a byte stream with a little protocol around 
it?  Why would so many tools fail to send SYSEX dumps to my VFX 
correctly?  (Or is the VFX that particular about SYSEX formatting?)

Thanks again,

Will



--- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com, "supergidi" <supergisi@g...> 
wrote:
> Have you ever tested Emagic SoundDiver? I use it with my VFX-SD 
and 
> it works really good. Emagic offers an older version for free 
> download as far as I know.
> Gisi
> 
> --- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com, "weidmanconsulting" 
> <weidmanconsulting@y...> wrote:
> > I had tried SoundLib in the past, but the program was unable to 
> > detect my USB MIDI interface.  All of the other programs I have 
> > tried do recognize it, so I gave up on SoundLib.
> > 
> > I will try the Alesis product and see if the results are 
> different.  
> > Since I tried SYSEX files both from the files area of this forum 
as 
> > well as new ones generated by my VFX, it doesn't seem like the 
data 
> > formatting is the issue.  I had asked in a previous post if 
there 
> > were any SYSEX compatibility issues between dumps from the 
various 
> > flavors of VFX (thinking that a VFX-SD dump to my VFX wouldn't 
> > work), but learned that there were not issues with this.
> > 
> > The USB interface is new (Yamaha) and it seems to work fine with 
> > sequencers etc. that I have tried with my VFX.
> > 
> > --- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com, Roi de la plage 
> > <roidelaplage@y...> wrote:
> > > Yes, try another SysEx dumper. FreeLoader from Alesis
> > > is ultra-simple but does its job !
> > > 
> > > If the dump does not work with FreeLoader also, check
> > > out the SysEx file or change your MIDI cable.
> > > I believe that many members could send you a "clean"
> > > SysEx file for testing.
> > > 
> > > Fred
> > > 
> > >  --- Mick Roeg <roegster@y...> a écrit : > Dude
> > > >   Quit playing with toys and get the SOUND
> > > > LIBRARIAN.
> > > > It uploads real good. I've never had a problem and I
> > > > had to edit for weeks till I got my VFX tweeked the
> > > > way I wanted it.
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.thedx7.co.uk/index.html
> > > > 
> > > > for the Sound Lib. It's a DX7 site but the librarian
> > > > works on lots of keyboards.
> > > > Then go here:
> > > > 
> > > > http://neopatch.hypermart.net/
> > > > 
> > > > to find some real cool patches. All instructions are
> > > > in the help files and it really really works! 
> > > > Roegster
> > > > 
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > > > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> > > >  
> > > 
> > > =====
> > > --
> > > Si la pierre tombe sur l'oeuf, malheur a l'oeuf,
> > > Si l'oeuf tombe sur la pierre, malheur a l'oeuf.
> > >    Frederic (roidelaplage@y...)
> > > 
> > > ___________________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et en 
français !
> > > Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

Re: [Ensoniq-VFX-SD] Re: SYSEX problems

2003-07-09 by Roi de la plage

Strange problem.
For info, I used to transfer SysEx from a MidiMan USB
2x2 using FreeLoader (Alesis) to a VFX-SDII without
any problems, back and forth.

Your SysEx is OK.
Your VFX is well-configured to receive the SysEx.

The problem seems to be from the MIDI interface
configuration somehow...

Fred

 --- weidmanconsulting <weidmanconsulting@...> a
\ufffdcrit\ufffd: > My SYSEX woes continue.  I tried the Alesis
tool
> recommended, with 
> the same errors resulting.  (The Emagic ones I was
> able to find were 
> Macintosh-based, and I don't have a Mac.)  I also
> dragged my VFX 
> over near enough to my home office desktop PC to
> hook it up to the 
> soundcard MIDI/Joystick port.  Soundlib does work on
> that PC and I 
> was able to successfully transfer a bank with that
> combination.  
> Unfortunately, I cannot use my office PC long-term
> for this task.
> 
> So, in summary, I can't get Soundlib working on my
> laptop because it 
> doesn't recognize any MIDI device drivers running
> there.  Every 
> other tool I use on my laptop recognizes my Yamaha
> USB MIDI 
> interface, but fails to send and receive the SYSEX
> correctly.
> 
> Does anyone have a Win 98 PC & Soundlib working with
> a USB MIDI 
> interface of any sort???
> 
> Also, isnt' SYSEX just a byte stream with a little
> protocol around 
> it?  Why would so many tools fail to send SYSEX
> dumps to my VFX 
> correctly?  (Or is the VFX that particular about
> SYSEX formatting?)
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Will
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com, "supergidi"
> <supergisi@g...> 
> wrote:
> > Have you ever tested Emagic SoundDiver? I use it
> with my VFX-SD 
> and 
> > it works really good. Emagic offers an older
> version for free 
> > download as far as I know.
> > Gisi
> > 
> > --- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com,
> "weidmanconsulting" 
> > <weidmanconsulting@y...> wrote:
> > > I had tried SoundLib in the past, but the
> program was unable to 
> > > detect my USB MIDI interface.  All of the other
> programs I have 
> > > tried do recognize it, so I gave up on SoundLib.
> > > 
> > > I will try the Alesis product and see if the
> results are 
> > different.  
> > > Since I tried SYSEX files both from the files
> area of this forum 
> as 
> > > well as new ones generated by my VFX, it doesn't
> seem like the 
> data 
> > > formatting is the issue.  I had asked in a
> previous post if 
> there 
> > > were any SYSEX compatibility issues between
> dumps from the 
> various 
> > > flavors of VFX (thinking that a VFX-SD dump to
> my VFX wouldn't 
> > > work), but learned that there were not issues
> with this.
> > > 
> > > The USB interface is new (Yamaha) and it seems
> to work fine with 
> > > sequencers etc. that I have tried with my VFX.
> > > 
> > > --- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com, Roi de la
> plage 
> > > <roidelaplage@y...> wrote:
> > > > Yes, try another SysEx dumper. FreeLoader from
> Alesis
> > > > is ultra-simple but does its job !
> > > > 
> > > > If the dump does not work with FreeLoader
> also, check
> > > > out the SysEx file or change your MIDI cable.
> > > > I believe that many members could send you a
> "clean"
> > > > SysEx file for testing.
> > > > 
> > > > Fred
> > > > 
> > > >  --- Mick Roeg <roegster@y...> a \ufffdcrit\ufffd: >
> Dude
> > > > >   Quit playing with toys and get the SOUND
> > > > > LIBRARIAN.
> > > > > It uploads real good. I've never had a
> problem and I
> > > > > had to edit for weeks till I got my VFX
> tweeked the
> > > > > way I wanted it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.thedx7.co.uk/index.html
> > > > > 
> > > > > for the Sound Lib. It's a DX7 site but the
> librarian
> > > > > works on lots of keyboards.
> > > > > Then go here:
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://neopatch.hypermart.net/
> > > > > 
> > > > > to find some real cool patches. All
> instructions are
> > > > > in the help files and it really really
> works! 
> > > > > Roegster
> > > > > 
> > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > > > > http://sbc.yahoo.com
> > > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > =====
> > > > --
> > > > Si la pierre tombe sur l'oeuf, malheur a
> l'oeuf,
> > > > Si l'oeuf tombe sur la pierre, malheur a
> l'oeuf.
> > > >    Frederic (roidelaplage@y...)
> > > > 
> > > >
>
___________________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @...
> gratuite et en 
> fran\ufffdais !
> > > > Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com
> 
>  

=====
--
Si la pierre tombe sur l'oeuf, malheur a l'oeuf,
Si l'oeuf tombe sur la pierre, malheur a l'oeuf.
   Frederic (roidelaplage@...)

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et en fran\ufffdais !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

Re: SYSEX problems

2003-07-09 by Frank Lihotz

Many of the older utilities that we use are compatible
with the "Roland MPU" type of interface only.  If you
have a SoundBlaster or compatible sound card in your
laptop, get the MIDI interface adaptor/cable
(available at most computer stores - In fact Cakewalk
used to bundle the adaptor/cable with a CD demo of
Cakewalk for around $20).  I'm having the same type of
problems with a Laptop, and its not that new.  It's a
CTX 166 that I retired from busines useage.  I've
found that some synth Libs and utilities work fine and
others can't talk to the MIDI adaptor.  I'm having the
same difficulties with Soundlib.  I'm ready to dig out
an old 386 or 486 and get it working for all of the
vintage synths I have around here.

FRL

=====
**************************************************************
* Frank Lihotz, President                                    *
* Digital Music Consultants, Inc. - flihotz@...
* "Automated Solutions to Audio, Video & Musical Problems"   *
**************************************************************

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Re: SYSEX problems

2003-07-09 by Steve Wahl

On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 07:32:25AM -0000, Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have a Win 98 PC & Soundlib working with a USB MIDI 
> interface of any sort???

[ Not I, so I'll not comment.  I do use a MOTU PC MIDI FLYER (but then
again it's been a while since I actually used it) that is connected to
the parallel port.  If you can't get USB to work, you might try to
find one of these (assuming your laptop has a parallel port).  Then
again, I think they had some problems with win98 as well... ]

> Also, isnt' SYSEX just a byte stream with a little protocol around 
> it?  Why would so many tools fail to send SYSEX dumps to my VFX 
> correctly?  (Or is the VFX that particular about SYSEX formatting?)

This is a "Yes, but..."  kind of answer.  In some ways, the SYSEX
messages are a huge wart on the side of the MIDI protocol.  All the
other messages are short (most are like 3 bytes, if I recall
correctly).  So, talking driver software level here, getting a good
memory management scheme for the transmit and recieve buffers can be a
bit hairy.  

(Just FYI, I haven't done any MIDI programming under Windows or Mac,
but I have toyed with it a bit on the Amiga and under Linux; and I
spent part of my professional life developing drivers for multi-port
serial cards, which is what a MIDI interface is at its heart, although
it has much different timing expectations.)

Have you made sure you have the most up-to-date drivers for your MIDI
interface?  That does seem like the common piece to all your troubles.
Perhaps they don't correctly handle sysex messages longer than a
certain length.  If I recall correctly, you can send single sounds but
not whole banks?  

I can't remember what sysex messages you're trying to send.  I once
knew the vanilla VFX SYSEX messages quite well (not any VFX-SD
extensions, however).  The VFX is not very picky at all about its
sysex messages.  Some other synths (eg roland) have some timing
requirements where you can only send messages of a certain length, and
you must pause a bit before sending the next message -- and bulk dumps
must be split into multiple smaller messages, so these pauses are
necessary for a full dump.  The VFX, on the other hand, does a full
dump of 60 programs in one sysex message, and you can transmit it
without any pauses.

I think it's your MIDI interface (or its driver) that's at fault here.

--> Steve

Re: SYSEX problems

2003-07-10 by Nathan I Smutz

Hi Will,

Here's an idea.
When you go into:
Controll Panel
        Multimedia
                MIDI tab
Does your USB interface appear in the list of MIDI devices?
If so, go to the [Advanced] tab and doulble click your USB interface and
see if "Use MIDI features on this device" is enabled.

Make a joyful noise,
Nathan
------------------------------------------------------------

For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the
dry?
-Jesus

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
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Re: SYSEX problems

2003-07-10 by weidmanconsulting

More tests have convinced me that the interface is indeed the 
problem.  I downloaded the Win2k/XP driver for the Yamaha USB 
interface and installed it on the same PC that worked successfully 
with the Soundcard/MIDI port and Soundlib.  I reconfigured Soundlib 
to use the USB interface and sure enough, the USB interface does not 
work with Soundlib.  I get the same results as I did with my Win98 
laptop...the first few patches load OK then I get garbage.

I guess I will come up with an alternative plan.

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.

Will

--- In Ensoniq-VFX-SD@yahoogroups.com, Steve Wahl <steve@p...> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 07:32:25AM -0000, Ensoniq-VFX-
SD@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> > 
> > Does anyone have a Win 98 PC & Soundlib working with a USB MIDI 
> > interface of any sort???
> 
> [ Not I, so I'll not comment.  I do use a MOTU PC MIDI FLYER (but 
then
> again it's been a while since I actually used it) that is 
connected to
> the parallel port.  If you can't get USB to work, you might try to
> find one of these (assuming your laptop has a parallel port).  Then
> again, I think they had some problems with win98 as well... ]
> 
> > Also, isnt' SYSEX just a byte stream with a little protocol 
around 
> > it?  Why would so many tools fail to send SYSEX dumps to my VFX 
> > correctly?  (Or is the VFX that particular about SYSEX 
formatting?)
> 
> This is a "Yes, but..."  kind of answer.  In some ways, the SYSEX
> messages are a huge wart on the side of the MIDI protocol.  All the
> other messages are short (most are like 3 bytes, if I recall
> correctly).  So, talking driver software level here, getting a good
> memory management scheme for the transmit and recieve buffers can 
be a
> bit hairy.  
> 
> (Just FYI, I haven't done any MIDI programming under Windows or 
Mac,
> but I have toyed with it a bit on the Amiga and under Linux; and I
> spent part of my professional life developing drivers for multi-
port
> serial cards, which is what a MIDI interface is at its heart, 
although
> it has much different timing expectations.)
> 
> Have you made sure you have the most up-to-date drivers for your 
MIDI
> interface?  That does seem like the common piece to all your 
troubles.
> Perhaps they don't correctly handle sysex messages longer than a
> certain length.  If I recall correctly, you can send single sounds 
but
> not whole banks?  
> 
> I can't remember what sysex messages you're trying to send.  I once
> knew the vanilla VFX SYSEX messages quite well (not any VFX-SD
> extensions, however).  The VFX is not very picky at all about its
> sysex messages.  Some other synths (eg roland) have some timing
> requirements where you can only send messages of a certain length, 
and
> you must pause a bit before sending the next message -- and bulk 
dumps
> must be split into multiple smaller messages, so these pauses are
> necessary for a full dump.  The VFX, on the other hand, does a full
> dump of 60 programs in one sysex message, and you can transmit it
> without any pauses.
> 
> I think it's your MIDI interface (or its driver) that's at fault 
here.
> 
> --> Steve

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.