Yahoo Groups archive

Homebrew PCBs

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:05 UTC

Thread

etch tank idea

etch tank idea

2008-04-25 by Adam Seychell

I was looking at an easier and more reliable way to etch PCBs. I know 
from experience that bubble etching never produces acceptable uniformity 
and often needs manual brushing to finish it off.

I though maybe the bubbles could be released on one side of the tank 
causing etchant to flow in a circular path around the tank.
The PCB is held vertically in a frame that pivots by two small shafts at 
either side. The moving fluid should continuously rotate the PCB around 
thus guaranteeing uniform concentrical etching. I'm not sure how uniform 
the etch rate would be radially.

Has anyone tried making such a contraption ?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etch tank idea

2008-04-25 by Stefan Trethan

No but i have thought about using magnetic stirrers.
One could even attach a brush to an encapsulated magnet, and
mechanically brush the pcb inside the tank.

No need to build a complicated drive system with coils either, just
stick a magnet to a disk rotating outside the glass, motor driven.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> wrote:
>
> I was looking at an easier and more reliable way to etch PCBs. I know
> from experience that bubble etching never produces acceptable uniformity
> and often needs manual brushing to finish it off.
>
> I though maybe the bubbles could be released on one side of the tank
> causing etchant to flow in a circular path around the tank.
> The PCB is held vertically in a frame that pivots by two small shafts at
> either side. The moving fluid should continuously rotate the PCB around
> thus guaranteeing uniform concentrical etching. I'm not sure how uniform
> the etch rate would be radially.
>
> Has anyone tried making such a contraption ?
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etch tank idea

2008-04-25 by Markus Zingg

Adam,

What about your spray etcher? Ok, kind of off topic compared to an etch 
"tank" in the strict sense, but I wonder
if the spray etcher you built does deliver uniform results?

Markus

Adam Seychell schrieb:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
> I was looking at an easier and more reliable way to etch PCBs. I know
> from experience that bubble etching never produces acceptable uniformity
> and often needs manual brushing to finish it off.
>
> I though maybe the bubbles could be released on one side of the tank
> causing etchant to flow in a circular path around the tank.
> The PCB is held vertically in a frame that pivots by two small shafts at
> either side. The moving fluid should continuously rotate the PCB around
> thus guaranteeing uniform concentrical etching. I'm not sure how uniform
> the etch rate would be radially.
>
> Has anyone tried making such a contraption ?
>
>

[Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet head height

2008-04-25 by Mark Lerman

To those of you who have modified inkjets - how high above the medium 
does an Epson inkjet head ride while printing? Is there an optimal 
distance or isn't it critical?

Mark

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet head height

2008-04-25 by Stefan Trethan

I think it's specified in the service manual.

I attached a small dial indicator to the head, not to get the distance
exactly right but to get it equal across the width.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 2:15 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> To those of you who have modified inkjets - how high above the medium
> does an Epson inkjet head ride while printing? Is there an optimal
> distance or isn't it critical?
>
> Mark
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etch tank idea

2008-04-25 by Mike Schoenborn

At 08:13 PM 4/25/2008 +1000, you wrote:
>
>I was looking at an easier and more reliable way to etch PCBs. I know 
>from experience that bubble etching never produces acceptable uniformity 
>and often needs manual brushing to finish it off.

I would have thought that more randomness, not less, would be desireable
since the areas to be etched are (to some extent) randomly oriented.  No?

(At this point I wanted to make an analogy to sand dunes, glacial scoring,
or orbital sanders versus belt sanders, but my caffeine level isn't up to it).

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etch tank idea

2008-04-25 by Harvey White

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:13:22 +1000, you wrote:

>
>I was looking at an easier and more reliable way to etch PCBs. I know 
>from experience that bubble etching never produces acceptable uniformity 
>and often needs manual brushing to finish it off.

Depends on where the bubbles go, I think.  The more agitation the
better the etching.  Getting them even is the trick.
>
>I though maybe the bubbles could be released on one side of the tank 
>causing etchant to flow in a circular path around the tank.
>The PCB is held vertically in a frame that pivots by two small shafts at 
>either side. The moving fluid should continuously rotate the PCB around 
>thus guaranteeing uniform concentrical etching. I'm not sure how uniform 
>the etch rate would be radially.
>

I think you might have the same difficulty.  Etching on the leading
edge will be better than the trailing edge.  Think wing vortex for my
reasoning.  

You might try etching only one side at a time.  That might give you a
bit better control.  I'd also suggest rotating the board halfway
through, or making sure that the bubble stream is the right size.

Harvey


>Has anyone tried making such a contraption ?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet head height

2008-04-25 by Mark Lerman

Stefan,

In looking at the service manual for the R380, I see a number of 
features that should make it an excellent pcb printer. The main one 
is that the head height is controlled by a motor! The feedback for 
this motor is via a photointerruptor and a disk with 4 tabs 
representing the 4 presets that are selected by the paper type 
operator input. The lowest paper PG (Printhead Gap) is 1.2 mm, while 
the cd/dvd PG is 4.2 mm, so I'm hoping to be able to print 3 mm 
pcbs!  Spoofing the sensor should be simple, hopefully to the point 
where it can be continuously adjusted to match the board thickness. 
Now, I hope the paper path will be as cooperative!

Mark

At 09:59 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>I think it's specified in the service manual.
>
>I attached a small dial indicator to the head, not to get the distance
>exactly right but to get it equal across the width.
>
>ST
>
>On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 2:15 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> > To those of you who have modified inkjets - how high above the medium
> > does an Epson inkjet head ride while printing? Is there an optimal
> > distance or isn't it critical?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etch tank idea

2008-04-25 by Adam Seychell

Markus Zingg wrote:
> Adam,
> 
> What about your spray etcher? Ok, kind of off topic compared to an etch 
> "tank" in the strict sense, but I wonder
> if the spray etcher you built does deliver uniform results?
> 
> Markus
> 

My spray etcher works great, and it gets used all the time. The reason I 
was interested in more reliable bubble etching was part of another 
project to see if its possible to fabricate a compact and complete PTH 
PCB station for fabricating 150x150mm boards. If it is possible to get 
cost and labour down to a reasonable level then I would look at 
marketing such PCB prototyping stations.

I know there is a lot of R+D work to get there, even after my years of 
tinkering around. If its not economically viable or there is no market 
then I'd end up with a smaller PTH PCB station to replace my current 
setup which takes up lots of room.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] etch tank idea

2008-04-25 by guja

Adam, there is an easy way how to make such (cheap & reliable) etching tank,
  (if you use Cu/Fe – Cl based etchant). If you are interested, i can send you pics & drawings. 
  

Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> wrote:
  My spray etcher works great, and it gets used all the time. The reason I 
was interested in more reliable bubble etching was part of another 
project to see if its possible to fabricate a compact and complete PTH 
PCB station for fabricating 150x150mm boards. If it is possible to get 
cost and labour down to a reasonable level then I would look at 
marketing such PCB prototyping stations.



       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-26 by curt_rxr

Adam wrote:
>
> 
> I was looking at an easier and more reliable way to etch PCBs. I know 
> from experience that bubble etching never produces acceptable
uniformity 
> and often needs manual brushing to finish it off.
>

I've found that a simple covered, flat, rocking tank works pretty
well.  I made mine out of acrylic and use an eccentric on a gear motor
to make the tank rock about twice a minute.   The flow of the CuCl
over the board is fairly uniform and my boards seem to etch evenly.
You need to grip your PCB by two edges and have a deep enough tank to
allow the etchant to flow over both sides of a double sided PCB.

The drawback of the scheme is that you must set up a CuCL regeneration
station to bubble air through the etchant and capture the fumes, but
this allows you to keep the fumes away from your tools so it's not
really a drawback.

Curt

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-26 by Adam Seychell

curt_rxr wrote:
> Adam wrote:
>>
>> I was looking at an easier and more reliable way to etch PCBs. I know 
>> from experience that bubble etching never produces acceptable
> uniformity 
>> and often needs manual brushing to finish it off.
>>
> 
> I've found that a simple covered, flat, rocking tank works pretty
> well.  I made mine out of acrylic and use an eccentric on a gear motor
> to make the tank rock about twice a minute.   The flow of the CuCl
> over the board is fairly uniform and my boards seem to etch evenly.
> You need to grip your PCB by two edges and have a deep enough tank to
> allow the etchant to flow over both sides of a double sided PCB.
> 

Interesting. I wonder if this concept could be made to work in a 
vertical tank. The PCB could be mounted to an plastic shaft that is 
attached to some cam assembly at moderate speed. The circular 
displacement might only be several mm , but the agitation could prove to 
be uniform and vigorous. I assume any mechanical method would add a lot 
of complexity, machining up bushes, wheels, brackets, et.


A cover plate is mandatory for bubble agitation since splashes go all 
over the place otherwise. I found the cover plate also needs to have a 
neat fit and recessed slightly so run off goes back into the bulk solution.

Adam

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-26 by Matthew Smith

Quoth Adam Seychell at 2008-04-27 07:58...
> Interesting. I wonder if this concept could be made to work in a 
> vertical tank. The PCB could be mounted to an plastic shaft that is 
> attached to some cam assembly at moderate speed. The circular 
> displacement might only be several mm , but the agitation could prove to 
> be uniform and vigorous. I assume any mechanical method would add a lot 
> of complexity, machining up bushes, wheels, brackets, et.

How about this: consider a 'normal' bubble etch tank.  Rather than 
having two clips on a board attached to something at the top of the 
tank, have one clip attached as usual.  The second clip is attached via 
a length of fishing line to an arm mounted on a motor.  By using a 
pulley system, the motor wouldn't necessarily need to be too close to 
the tank.

Microwave oven turntable motor?

Cheers

M

-- 
Matthew Smith
Smiffytech - Technology Consulting & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.smiffytech.com/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-27 by Stefan Trethan

I'd say it would probably work in a vertical tank, but moving the PCB
would add complexity to the holder.

Uniformity is rotten in my tank too, especially since some of the
holes in the bubbler hose seem to deteriorate over time leaving a few
powerful streaks of bubbles. I'm sure it takes as much time again to
complete the board as it takes to etch the first few spots bare, if
not more. That sounds awful, but with the stuff i do (usually no
smaller than 8mil) it doesn't seem to be a problem.

If there is a way to improve it, without too much fiddling about, i'd
surely impement it. I was thinking about replacing the hose with a
artificial stone type bubbler. Those seem to give better uniformity.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 4/27/08, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> wrote:

>
> Interesting. I wonder if this concept could be made to work in a
>  vertical tank. The PCB could be mounted to an plastic shaft that is
>  attached to some cam assembly at moderate speed. The circular
>  displacement might only be several mm , but the agitation could prove to
>  be uniform and vigorous. I assume any mechanical method would add a lot
>  of complexity, machining up bushes, wheels, brackets, et.
>
>
>  A cover plate is mandatory for bubble agitation since splashes go all
>  over the place otherwise. I found the cover plate also needs to have a
>  neat fit and recessed slightly so run off goes back into the bulk solution.
>
>
>  Adam
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-27 by Craig vk2zcm

I had a play with a piece of printed circuit board sitting flat copper side down on the surface of the etchant It was connected to a tiny variable speed motor which made the board orbit. While the refresh rate was fast It etched the board twice as quick around the edge and hardly etched in the centre, not successful at all. My thoughts at the time was to try a linear motion but never go around to it

 Craig VK2ZCM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stefan Trethan 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 7:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea


  I'd say it would probably work in a vertical tank, but moving the PCB
  would add complexity to the holder.

  Uniformity is rotten in my tank too, especially since some of the
  holes in the bubbler hose seem to deteriorate over time leaving a few
  powerful streaks of bubbles. I'm sure it takes as much time again to
  complete the board as it takes to etch the first few spots bare, if
  not more. That sounds awful, but with the stuff i do (usually no
  smaller than 8mil) it doesn't seem to be a problem.

  If there is a way to improve it, without too much fiddling about, i'd
  surely impement it. I was thinking about replacing the hose with a
  artificial stone type bubbler. Those seem to give better uniformity.

  ST

  On 4/27/08, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> wrote:

  >
  > Interesting. I wonder if this concept could be made to work in a
  > vertical tank. The PCB could be mounted to an plastic shaft that is
  > attached to some cam assembly at moderate speed. The circular
  > displacement might only be several mm , but the agitation could prove to
  > be uniform and vigorous. I assume any mechanical method would add a lot
  > of complexity, machining up bushes, wheels, brackets, et.
  >
  >
  > A cover plate is mandatory for bubble agitation since splashes go all
  > over the place otherwise. I found the cover plate also needs to have a
  > neat fit and recessed slightly so run off goes back into the bulk solution.
  >
  >
  > Adam
  >
  >


   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-27 by Stefan Trethan

I think if the PCB moves etchant like a paddle, creating a current, it
might work.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 4/27/08, Craig vk2zcm <vk2zcm@...> wrote:
> I had a play with a piece of printed circuit board sitting flat copper side down on the surface of the etchant It was connected to a tiny variable speed motor which made the board orbit. While the refresh rate was fast It etched the board twice as quick around the edge and hardly etched in the centre, not successful at all. My thoughts at the time was to try a linear motion but never go around to it
>
>
>   Craig VK2ZCM

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-27 by Leon

I get excellent results with manual agitation - rocking the container. Some 
years ago the ARRL Handbook had a simple PCB etching system using a 
eccentric powered by a small electric motor to provide the rocking motion, 
with a heat lamp for keeping the etchant hot.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-27 by Chris Hart

I don't worry about agitation. I simply leave everything still, and 
float the board on about a quarter to half inch of echant. The "used" 
echant is heavier than the fresh, so the etchant naturally keeps the 
fresher stuff at the surface of the board. The only drawback to this 
method is it only does one side at a time.

Leon wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I get excellent results with manual agitation - rocking the container. 
> Some
> years ago the ARRL Handbook had a simple PCB etching system using a
> eccentric powered by a small electric motor to provide the rocking 
> motion,
> with a heat lamp for keeping the etchant hot.
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
> Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
> Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
> leon355@... <mailto:leon355%40btinternet.com>
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller 
> <http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-27 by Stefan Trethan

Yes, but a horizontal system has several drawbacks.

Larger footprint.
Difficulty with doublesided boards.
large lid to seal.
Higher evaporation ratio.

I want something compact that i can leave standing in the corner all
year round, ready to make a board when i feel like it without having
to get anything out or put anything away. The vertical tank with
bubbler fills that need, but it woud be nice to get a more uniform and
faster etch, without adding any drawbacks of course.

Also, i don't make boards once a week like i used to, so i don't want
to completely re-design the tank. A quick fix would be neat, even if i
have to buy a couple of parts to make it work.

I might just try the magnetic stirrer idea. putting a thin steel rod
inside a plastic hose would be easy, and that could be driven by
magnets on the outside.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 4/27/08, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:
> I get excellent results with manual agitation - rocking the container. Some
>  years ago the ARRL Handbook had a simple PCB etching system using a
>  eccentric powered by a small electric motor to provide the rocking motion,
>  with a heat lamp for keeping the etchant hot.
>
>  Leon
>

Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-27 by pork_u_pine2000

I have purchased the standard Teflon-jacketed magnets several times
from  science equipment suppliers marketing to kids & teachers.  They
cost a bit more than they should, but they are well suited to the task
and usually last until I lose them.

I see that a recent catalog from Edmund Scientifics (rarely the
cheapest possible source) has a set of three for $9.95 (part
#E31080-00) as well as a stir bar retriever (part #31081-00) for
another $9.95.  They are listed as accessories for Laboratory Magnetic
Stirrer (#E30362-84.  I'm sure that they are available elsewhere, as well.

--Dave


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, but a horizontal system has several drawbacks.
> 
> Larger footprint.
> Difficulty with doublesided boards.
> large lid to seal.
> Higher evaporation ratio.
> 
> I want something compact that i can leave standing in the corner all
...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I might just try the magnetic stirrer idea. putting a thin steel rod
> inside a plastic hose would be easy, and that could be driven by
> magnets on the outside.
> 
> ST
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-27 by Adam Seychell

Chris Hart wrote:
> I don't worry about agitation. I simply leave everything still, and 
> float the board on about a quarter to half inch of echant. The "used" 
> echant is heavier than the fresh, so the etchant naturally keeps the 
> fresher stuff at the surface of the board. The only drawback to this 
> method is it only does one side at a time.
> 

I have tried that method several times , and has never worked well. 
First, I had problems from trapped air bubbles when laying down the PCB 
on the surface. This obviously causes problems. Bubbles can be avoided 
by pre-wetting the copper surface and then carefully releasing the PCB 
on top of the etchant.

The real problem however was when etching if ferric chloride or cupric 
chloride the flow of 'heavy salts' do not fall vertically down 
uniformly. I have consistently observed thin streaks of un-etched copper 
due to some weird behaviour of the flow dynamics in a stagnate etch tank.

Adam

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-28 by Adam Seychell

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> I'd say it would probably work in a vertical tank, but moving the PCB
> would add complexity to the holder.

I agree. The complexity and other problems (corrosion of mechanical 
pats, vibration, ease of fastening the PCB) could easily outweigh any 
advantage.

> Uniformity is rotten in my tank too, especially since some of the
> holes in the bubbler hose seem to deteriorate over time leaving a few
> powerful streaks of bubbles. I'm sure it takes as much time again to
> complete the board as it takes to etch the first few spots bare, if
> not more. That sounds awful, but with the stuff i do (usually no
> smaller than 8mil) it doesn't seem to be a problem.
> 
> If there is a way to improve it, without too much fiddling about, i'd
> surely impement it. I was thinking about replacing the hose with a
> artificial stone type bubbler. Those seem to give better uniformity.
> 

There is the question of big bubbles verses small bubbles.

* Big bubbles agitate more because they more faster and displace more 
solution as they rise.
* Small bubbles are good for aeration, because they have more surface area.

I'd probably say big bubbles work better for uniformity because of the 
increased randomness. The good news is that big bubbles can be generated 
by a home made air tube. Drilling some 1mm holes every inch or so into a 
piece of rigid PVC pipe. The ends are sealed by heating over a flame and 
clamping in a vice to fuse the ends. your rubber air hose is inserted 
tightly in the PVC tube through a slightly undersized hole.

To avoid the whole thing floating up when you supply air, just lay down 
on top of it a couple of quarts rocks or glue some old broken ceramic 
tiles to it (neutral cure silicone bonds very well to roughened PVC).

The trick is not to drill too many holes and to have the tube exactly 
horizontal so air exits at equal rates from each hole.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-28 by Mike Bauers

Are you folks aware of this site and it's detailed instructions to  
make and use a spray tank etcher ???


http://www.prototrains.com/etch1/etch1.html
http://www.prototrains.com/etch2/etch2.html

http://www.prototrains.com/

http://www.prototrains.com/etchmisc/overhead.pdf

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 27, 2008, at 4:50 AM, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> I'd say it would probably work in a vertical tank, but moving the PCB
> would add complexity to the holder.
>
> Uniformity is rotten in my tank too, especially since some of the
> holes in the bubbler hose seem to deteriorate over time leaving a few
> powerful streaks of bubbles. I'm sure it takes as much time again to
> complete the board as it takes to etch the first few spots bare, if
> not more. That sounds awful, but with the stuff i do (usually no
> smaller than 8mil) it doesn't seem to be a problem.
>
> If there is a way to improve it, without too much fiddling about, i'd
> surely impement it. I was thinking about replacing the hose with a
> artificial stone type bubbler. Those seem to give better uniformity.
>
> ST
>
>
> On 4/27/08, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> Interesting. I wonder if this concept could be made to work in a
>> vertical tank. The PCB could be mounted to an plastic shaft that is
>> attached to some cam assembly at moderate speed. The circular
>> displacement might only be several mm , but the agitation could  
>> prove to
>> be uniform and vigorous. I assume any mechanical method would add a  
>> lot
>> of complexity, machining up bushes, wheels, brackets, et.
>>
>>
>> A cover plate is mandatory for bubble agitation since splashes go all
>> over the place otherwise. I found the cover plate also needs to  
>> have a
>> neat fit and recessed slightly so run off goes back into the bulk  
>> solution.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-28 by Adam Seychell

Leon wrote:
> I get excellent results with manual agitation - rocking the container. Some 
> years ago the ARRL Handbook had a simple PCB etching system using a 
> eccentric powered by a small electric motor to provide the rocking motion, 
> with a heat lamp for keeping the etchant hot.
> 

I'd have to agree. Periodic rocking produces about the best results next 
to full blown spray etching. The only drawback is it can be fairly 
labour intensive. You need hot solution to minimise time. The rocking 
method also has least amount of equipment and cost. Nothing more than a 
plastic lunch box filed with an inch of ferric chloride, heated in a 
microwave oven.

I think what would help is building some kind of special purpose holder 
so the PCB is elevated about 10mm above the container bottom.
One method I used was get some 6mm or 10mm acrylic plastic sheet (not 
PVC) and cut three squares 30 x 30mm.  A jigsaw or hacksaw cut is made 
down the middle of each piece about half way. This creates a slot for 
pushing in a PCB. To get the slot a tight fit over the PCB, you heat the 
plastic with a hot air gun until it goes soft. Quickly force in some PCB 
material into the slot and clamp it in a vice so the slot conforms to 
the correct width as it cools down. Now you have three push-on style PCB 
spacers that will keep a double sided board elevated.

I don't think there is an ultimate etching method, but it seems vertical 
bubble tank and manual rocking/brushing are the two most popular.

Adam

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-28 by Adam Seychell

Craig vk2zcm wrote:
> I had a play with a piece of printed circuit board sitting flat copper side down on the surface of the etchant It was connected to a tiny variable speed motor which made the board orbit. While the refresh rate was fast It etched the board twice as quick around the edge and hardly etched in the centre, not successful at all. My thoughts at the time was to try a linear motion but never go around to it
> 
>  Craig VK2ZCM
> 
Thanks for sharing your experience. I guess the motorised cam wheel idea 
won't work then. I can't explain why that would happen, but I believe you.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-28 by Brian Goralczyk

I believe I can explain it.  The agitation of the etchant would spead up the process, however what is actually causing the agitation is the edges of the board being moved through it.  By the time the energy gets to the middle of the board it has dispersed.  It would seem to me, that maybe what would work better is a bar that would move back and forth through the etchant right below the surface of the board.  But that is just speculation, and I believe you would want to minimize the verticle movement of the agitating platform.  
Maybe you could place to rails above the etchant that the agitator bar would be connected to and move along.  I see a rather simple setup in my head.

 
Brian Goralczyk
Mobile 574-242-1144
Home 614-467-4323
Email: bdg0584@... 


"If we let the opinions of others keep us from doing what we know is right, than we have betrayed both ourselves as well as those we interact with"


"Expect the truth from all who you call friend. If you don't get it, they aren't your friend. If you don't give it, then you aren't their's."
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----
From: Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:33:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea


Craig vk2zcm wrote:
> I had a play with a piece of printed circuit board sitting flat copper side down on the surface of the etchant It was connected to a tiny variable speed motor which made the board orbit. While the refresh rate was fast It etched the board twice as quick around the edge and hardly etched in the centre, not successful at all. My thoughts at the time was to try a linear motion but never go around to it
> 
> Craig VK2ZCM
> 
Thanks for sharing your experience. I guess the motorised cam wheel idea 
won't work then. I can't explain why that would happen, but I believe you.

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-28 by drpain1313

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Brian Goralczyk <bdg0584@...> wrote:
>
> I believe I can explain it.  The agitation of the etchant would
> spead up the process, however what is actually causing the agitation
> is the edges of the board being moved through it.  By the time the
> energy gets to the middle of the board it has dispersed.  It would
> seem to me, that maybe what would work better is a bar that would 
> move back and forth through the etchant right below the surface of 
> the board.  But that is just speculation, and I believe you would 
> want to minimize the verticle movement of the agitating platform.  
> Maybe you could place to rails above the etchant that the agitator
> bar would be connected to and move along.  I see a rather simple 
> setup in my head.


Many years ago (10? 15?) when I used to do a lot more board building,
I had bought a low-cost etch tank that used a pump to move the etchant
over a ramp of sorts, where the pcb was placed.  It worked quite well
as I remember.  I suppose this would be called a wave etch tank.  I
tried to search for this type of tank with no luck.  Does someone
still make these?

Also, someone asked about the laminated copper foil I sell.  The
website is http://www.laserpcb.com

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Stefan Trethan

This is what i was thinking too.

In a vertical tank the bar could be a steel rod in a piece of
insulation, moved by magnets through the glass. Think windscreen
wiper.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Brian Goralczyk <bdg0584@...> wrote:
> I believe I can explain it.  The agitation of the etchant would spead up the process, however what is actually causing the agitation is the edges of the board being moved through it.  By the time the energy gets to the middle of the board it has dispersed.  It would seem to me, that maybe what would work better is a bar that would move back and forth through the etchant right below the surface of the board.  But that is just speculation, and I believe you would want to minimize the verticle movement of the agitating platform.
> Maybe you could place to rails above the etchant that the agitator bar would be connected to and move along.  I see a rather simple setup in my head.
>
>
> Brian Goralczyk
> Mobile 574-242-1144
> Home 614-467-4323
> Email: bdg0584@...
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Stefan Trethan

That's a neat idea too.
Instead of spray etching why not "rinse etch".

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 12:41 AM, drpain1313 <yahoo@...> wrote:

> Many years ago (10? 15?) when I used to do a lot more board building,
> I had bought a low-cost etch tank that used a pump to move the etchant
> over a ramp of sorts, where the pcb was placed.  It worked quite well
> as I remember.  I suppose this would be called a wave etch tank.  I
> tried to search for this type of tank with no luck.  Does someone
> still make these?
>
> Also, someone asked about the laminated copper foil I sell.  The
> website is http://www.laserpcb.com

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Leon

Has anyone tried ultrasonics? The cavitation on the copper surface should 
speed up the etching process considerably.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND and FT-857D transceivers
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Mark Lerman

Many years ago I built an automatic color print processor. The 
hardest part was getting a Laminar Flow across the surface of the 
paper so that it would develop evenly. I built a chamber with a lot 
of baffles that took the flow from a pump and spread it evenly 
through a slit at the top of a ramp where the paper was held. It 
worked great, but was only one sided. Doing this on both sides should 
be possible, but would take some experimentation.

Mark


At 06:12 AM 4/29/2008, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>That's a neat idea too.
>Instead of spray etching why not "rinse etch".
>
>ST
>
>On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 12:41 AM, drpain1313 <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> > Many years ago (10? 15?) when I used to do a lot more board building,
> > I had bought a low-cost etch tank that used a pump to move the etchant
> > over a ramp of sorts, where the pcb was placed.  It worked quite well
> > as I remember.  I suppose this would be called a wave etch tank.  I
> > tried to search for this type of tank with no luck.  Does someone
> > still make these?
> >
> > Also, someone asked about the laminated copper foil I sell.  The
> > website is http://www.laserpcb.com
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Mark Lerman

Now that I think about it, the paper was emulsion side down, and 
floated on the laminar flow. I think - getting old, hard to remember exactly.


At 07:48 AM 4/29/2008, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Many years ago I built an automatic color print processor. The
>hardest part was getting a Laminar Flow across the surface of the
>paper so that it would develop evenly. I built a chamber with a lot
>of baffles that took the flow from a pump and spread it evenly
>through a slit at the top of a ramp where the paper was held. It
>worked great, but was only one sided. Doing this on both sides should
>be possible, but would take some experimentation.
>
>Mark
>
>
>At 06:12 AM 4/29/2008, you wrote:
> >That's a neat idea too.
> >Instead of spray etching why not "rinse etch".
> >
> >ST
> >
> >On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 12:41 AM, drpain1313 <yahoo@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Many years ago (10? 15?) when I used to do a lot more board building,
> > > I had bought a low-cost etch tank that used a pump to move the etchant
> > > over a ramp of sorts, where the pcb was placed.  It worked quite well
> > > as I remember.  I suppose this would be called a wave etch tank.  I
> > > tried to search for this type of tank with no luck.  Does someone
> > > still make these?
> > >
> > > Also, someone asked about the laminated copper foil I sell.  The
> > > website is http://www.laserpcb.com
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Mark Brueggemann

> I had bought a low-cost etch tank that used a pump to move the
> etchant over a ramp of sorts, where the pcb was placed.  

Pulsar (formerly DynaArt) sold an etch tank that used two
fish tank pumps to force etchant over a molded plexiglas sheet
to create a laminar flow.  You could put the PCB copper side
up on the plexiglas for one sided etching, or use standoffs
to hold it just above the plexiglass to etch both sides.

I had one for a while but couldn't find a pump that would 
put up with the etchant (ammonium persulfate).  Whatever the
answer is, the agitator or impeller needs to be isolated 
from the drive source, and ideally it fits into a variety
of tank sizes and shapes to accomodate one's varied applications.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Mike Bauers

The Wave Master....

It went out of production some time ago.

I bought a kit version and later the assembled Mark-II version.

The kit is still un-assembled. I think I have the instruction package  
near the computer upstairs.......

The kit builds up in an included bog-standard plastic files box. It  
made me realize that the hard to source container for the Randy  
Gordon-Gilmore spray system could easily be the same container, or  
even a strong plastic wastebasket.

Would it be un-ethical to DIY a copy of the kit Wave Master??? It  
uses commercial parts like ordinary aquarium heaters that are still  
in the regular store packages. The inner tray/form is lucite or a  
similar plastic as best as I recall. The kit is sitting in the next  
room......

Best to ya'
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee Wi, USA
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:12 AM, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> That's a neat idea too.
> Instead of spray etching why not "rinse etch".
>
> ST
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 12:41 AM, drpain1313  
> <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
>> Many years ago (10? 15?) when I used to do a lot more board building,
>> I had bought a low-cost etch tank that used a pump to move the  
>> etchant
>> over a ramp of sorts, where the pcb was placed.  It worked quite well
>> as I remember.  I suppose this would be called a wave etch tank.  I
>> tried to search for this type of tank with no luck.  Does someone
>> still make these?
>>
>> Also, someone asked about the laminated copper foil I sell.  The
>> website is http://www.laserpcb.com

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Mike Bauers

Much of what you need has already been worked-out, and worked  
with.........

How about this bit of detail on a fellows working etch system ????

**********from etch1...

"I also made a tank with a higher-pressure pump, and plastic nozzles  
to spray the ferric chloride onto the sheet, with a clip to suspend  
the sheet vertically in the tank above the surface of the acid. This  
worked much better (about 4 times faster than the circulating tank!)  
and I even had to dilute the ferric chloride about 1:1 with distilled  
water to slow down the etching action. The surface finish was much  
smoother also. But, the etching was "directional" due to the acid  
running off the surface in one direction. I had to keep stopping the  
pump, and rotating the sheet 1/4 turn every so often to even out the  
directionality."...................
"There are two nozzles (equivalent to #H-83251-00 on pg. 1123 of the  
1995 Cole-Parmer laboratory products catalog) in the wall of the tank  
directly across from one another, each fed by an oscillating pump.  
These pumps (equivalent to #H-07101-01 on pg. 1113 of the Cole-Parmer  
catalog) are made for laboratory use, and have all rubber/plastic  
internal parts. Unfortunately, the pumps do not put out enough  
pressure to completely atomize the etchant, but the spray is fine  
enough for the finest etching I do. I can turn each pump on  
individually, to fine-tune the double-sided etching. All plumbing is  
vinyl tubing with plastic fittings and hose clamps."

"A shaft (titanium, to resist the acid, as even stainless steel will  
dissolve in the ferric chloride eventually) comes in the side next to  
one nozzle, so I can hold the sheet in the middle of the tank, and  
turn it continuously while etching. To hold the brass while etching,  
I drill a ~2mm hole near each corner. A four-armed titanium wire  
"spider" with hooked ends engages these holes, and applies outward  
tension to keep the sheet from bowing. The plastic hub of this spider  
presses onto the titanium shaft."

**********from etch2......
"I am using a 300W aquarium heater, built like a long test tube with  
the power cord and temperature adjustment knob coming out a plastic  
cap on the end. Although it is completely submersible, I did not want  
to take chances. I drilled a hole in the side of the tank (adjacent  
to the bypass outlet) and used silicone caulk to seal the heater in,  
with just the plastic head outside the tank. A small plastic bracket  
glued onto the inner wall of the sump supports the other end of the  
heater. It is just a 1/4" thick piece of acrylic with a hole in it."

"The new tank worked very well, but I had two failures where the  
outlet tubing slipped off the barbed fittings, even though I was  
using the nylon "snappy" hose clamps. I replaced all the outlet  
plumbing with 1/2" PVC pipe, glued. I turned up an adapter from PVC  
barstock that plugs into the pump outlet port (duplicating the stock  
adapter) and has a spud to glue into the PVC fitting."

**********

http://www.prototrains.com/etch1/etch1.html
http://www.prototrains.com/etch2/etch2.html

I think he got his titanium from Smallparts.com ...... at least they  
have it for sale.

"This article is ©1998-2007 Randy Gordon-Gilmore. No part of this  
article may be republished without permission. Private copying for  
non-profit-making purposes is permitted, as long as credit is given.  
Last updated: 26 Feb 2007."

Best to ya'
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee Wi, USA
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:27 AM, Leon wrote:
> Has anyone tried ultrasonics? The cavitation on the copper surface  
> should
> speed up the etching process considerably.
>
> Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Matthew Smith

Quoth Mark Brueggemann at 2008-04-29 22:55...

> I had one for a while but couldn't find a pump that would 
> put up with the etchant (ammonium persulfate).  Whatever the
> answer is, the agitator or impeller needs to be isolated 
> from the drive source, and ideally it fits into a variety
> of tank sizes and shapes to accomodate one's varied applications.

You want either a magnetic drive pump (polypropylene would probably be a 
suitable material) or a peristaltic pump (actually a positive 
displacement pump - a set of lobes on a rotor squeeze a plastic tube to 
push the fluid along.)

Hae a look on eBay - you'd be amazed at what's out there.  Or probably 
you wouldn't - I never cease to be amazed though, even after my wife 
bought a grand piano through there...

Cheers

M

-- 
Matthew Smith
Smiffytech - Technology Consulting & Web Application Development
Business: http://www.smiffytech.com/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Stefan Trethan

On 4/30/08, Matthew Smith <matt@...> wrote:

> You want either a magnetic drive pump (polypropylene would probably be a
>  suitable material) or a peristaltic pump (actually a positive
>  displacement pump - a set of lobes on a rotor squeeze a plastic tube to
>  push the fluid along.)

You could study medicine and become a heart surgeon, then you'd likely
have access to both types as surplus ;-)

>  Hae a look on eBay - you'd be amazed at what's out there.  Or probably
>  you wouldn't - I never cease to be amazed though, even after my wife
>  bought a grand piano through there...

Or that ;-)

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by Adam Seychell

Matthew Smith wrote:
> Quoth Mark Brueggemann at 2008-04-29 22:55...
> 
>> I had one for a while but couldn't find a pump that would 
>> put up with the etchant (ammonium persulfate).  Whatever the
>> answer is, the agitator or impeller needs to be isolated 
>> from the drive source, and ideally it fits into a variety
>> of tank sizes and shapes to accomodate one's varied applications.
> 
> You want either a magnetic drive pump (polypropylene would probably be a 
> suitable material) or a peristaltic pump (actually a positive 
> displacement pump - a set of lobes on a rotor squeeze a plastic tube to 
> push the fluid along.)
> 
> Hae a look on eBay - you'd be amazed at what's out there.  Or probably 
> you wouldn't - I never cease to be amazed though, even after my wife 
> bought a grand piano through there...
> 

Its been mentioned before but a aquarium pump suitable for saltwater 
should fit the bill. All are aquarium pumps are mag drive, but saltwater 
pumps won't use a stainless steel shaft.
One of these might make a good 'water fall' etcher being discussed here.

Adam

Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-29 by garydeal

>Much of what you need has already been worked-out, and worked  
>with.........
>
>How about this bit of detail on a fellows working etch system ????

     Yes, but, cost to build? Space required? Possible failure 
considerations? (doesn't he mention having ferric chloride spraying 
around the garage in one particular disaster?)

     It does look great, and I'd be working more on etching brass sheet 
(non-PCB) like he is, but a lot of us here are probably thinking more 
along the lines of "what's already laying around and twenty bucks for 
what's not"

     Regarding the floating & flow discussion, you guys reminded me of 
something (photography) related I read a while back - a guy suggested 
putting a vibrator in the tank. He was using it in the corner of a paper 
developer tray as his primary agitation and claimed that it, a small 
"egg" type vibrator, provided good agitation and even development. (?) 
Personally, I just rock the paper tray.

     Makes me think though, if I use the "floating" (horizontal) 
configuration in the etch tank with a vibrator moving the etchant, and 
helping to agitate and move the heavier etch products away from the 
material, that might solve one of my current cheapo-engineering problems. 
Then the question is whether it would do the same in a vertical 
configuration, as I need to accomplish two-sided etching. hmmm. =8/ 

     -Gary

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-30 by Mark Brueggemann

--- Matthew Smith <matt@...> wrote:


> You want either a magnetic drive pump (polypropylene would 
> probably be a suitable material) or a peristaltic pump 

The issue I had with the DynaArt setup was that it used a
particular size and style of pump, so selection for alternates
was limited.  The primary failure mode was the bushing bearings.
They would just disintegrate after a few uses.  Rinsing with
fresh water didn't help.  I gave up.

The idea I was going to pursue is like photographic developers
use, where a cylindrical tank is partially filled and rotated
on a set of rollers.  Experimentation would reveal if more even
etching would occur if the board was secured or loose in the tank.

Just a rotating variation of a rocking tray, I guess.  Trying to 
get away from pumps, too many issues.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-30 by Mike Bauers

You may have spend more then $20 for the guts...........

But there is no reason to go high cost for the rest. It's not  
difficult to build everything in a smaller container like a small  
wastebasket or plastic lidded filebox, and use that in something like  
a small plastic trashcan with a cover..

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 29, 2008, at 6:49 PM, garydeal wrote:

>> Much of what you need has already been worked-out, and worked
>> with.........
>>
>> How about this bit of detail on a fellows working etch system ????
>
>     Yes, but, cost to build? Space required? Possible failure
> considerations? (doesn't he mention having ferric chloride spraying
> around the garage in one particular disaster?)
>
>     It does look great, and I'd be working more on etching brass sheet
> (non-PCB) like he is, but a lot of us here are probably thinking more
> along the lines of "what's already laying around and twenty bucks for
> what's not"
>
>     Regarding the floating & flow discussion, you guys reminded me of
> something (photography) related I read a while back - a guy suggested
> putting a vibrator in the tank. He was using it in the corner of a  
> paper
> developer tray as his primary agitation and claimed that it, a small
> "egg" type vibrator, provided good agitation and even development. (?)
> Personally, I just rock the paper tray.
>
>     Makes me think though, if I use the "floating" (horizontal)
> configuration in the etch tank with a vibrator moving the etchant, and
> helping to agitate and move the heavier etch products away from the
> material, that might solve one of my current cheapo-engineering  
> problems.
> Then the question is whether it would do the same in a vertical
> configuration, as I need to accomplish two-sided etching. hmmm. =8/

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-30 by Mike Bauers

Thanks for the info........

I've got a small lathe and making new bushings from something else is  
something I can do.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 29, 2008, at 7:38 PM, Mark Brueggemann wrote:

>
> --- Matthew Smith <matt@...> wrote:
>
>
>> You want either a magnetic drive pump (polypropylene would
>> probably be a suitable material) or a peristaltic pump
>
> The issue I had with the DynaArt setup was that it used a
> particular size and style of pump, so selection for alternates
> was limited.  The primary failure mode was the bushing bearings.
> They would just disintegrate after a few uses.  Rinsing with
> fresh water didn't help.  I gave up.
>
> The idea I was going to pursue is like photographic developers
> use, where a cylindrical tank is partially filled and rotated
> on a set of rollers.  Experimentation would reveal if more even
> etching would occur if the board was secured or loose in the tank.
>
> Just a rotating variation of a rocking tray, I guess.  Trying to
> get away from pumps, too many issues.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-30 by DJ Delorie

Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> writes:
> But there is no reason to go high cost for the rest. It's not  
> difficult to build everything in a smaller container like a small  
> wastebasket or plastic lidded filebox, and use that in something like  
> a small plastic trashcan with a cover..

I have a bunch of containers that are various cut up gallon milk jugs.
If you happen to need to pour things around, the "top" part acts like
a built-in funnel.

For example, my old FeCl "tank" is a milk jug with the handle side cut
off vertically, just short of the opening.  Gives a flat rectangular
container with a pour spout.

You just have to be careful picking it up as it's quite flexible.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-30 by Adam Seychell

garydeal wrote:
> Then the question is whether it would do the same in a vertical 
> configuration, as I need to accomplish two-sided etching. hmmm. =8/ 
> 
>      -Gary
> 

It still might be possible to understand bubble etching enough to build 
a tank that etches uniformly. I'm suspecting the tank needs to be wide 
enough so the return fluid can flow downward unimpeded by rising 
bubbles. That effect won't happen in a narrow tank. It might have to be 
4" (100mm) wide.

I'm thinking the bubbles should distributed evenly across the side walls 
of the tank rather than directly under the PCB. Downward fluid flow 
would occur in the centre where the PCB is located.


|         |
|~~~~~~~~~|
|o       o|
|o   |    |
|    |   o|
|o   P   o|
|    C    |
|o   B   o|
|    |    |
|    |   o|
|o       o|
|         |
|o_     _o|
|[ ]   [ ]|
'---------'

<- 100mm ->

Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-30 by Andrew

> Adam wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> 
> I'm thinking the bubbles should distributed
> evenly across the side walls  of the tank
> rather than directly under the PCB. Downward
> fluid flow would occur in the centre where
> the PCB is located.
> 
> 
> |         |
> |~~~~~~~~~|
> |o       o|
> |o   |    |
> |    |   o|
> |o   P   o|
> |    C    |
> |o   B   o|
> |    |    |
> |    |   o|
> |o       o|
> |         |
> |o_     _o|
> |[ ]   [ ]|
> '---------'
> 
> <- 100mm ->
>

How about false walls and have the bubble flow
up the PCB and the fluid flow down the side in
a seperated channel behind the false walls

 |           |
 |~~~~~~~~~~~|
 |  |     |  |
 |  |  |  |  |
 |  | o|o |  |
 |  | o|o |  |
 |  |  |  |  |
 |  |  |  |  |
 |  |  |  |  |
 |  | o|o |  |
 |  | o|o |  |
 |  |  |  |  |
 |   _o o_   |
 |  [ ] [ ]  |
 '-----------'

Re: etch tank idea

2008-04-30 by warrenbrayshaw

I have been pondering the false walls idea for a while. I would 
experiment with driving the bubbles up the tank walls to cause the 
return flow of 'Unbubbled' etchant to flow down the surface of the 
PCB. -This should take away the etching issues caused by the 
incorrect bubble size or rate of bubbling.

The spacing between the false walls and the PCB should be kept small 
to ensure there is a decending flow at the surface of the PCB. As the 
etching by-product is heavier, having a decending flow makes sense. 

The bubble bar/hose should be a little way up in the bubble channel. 
I suspect the greater the column height of the bubbles the greater 
the etchant flow rate will be. Bubbling may need to be much stronger 
with this arrangement to induce the desired flow 

It would be good if the etch by-products could stagnate on the bottom 
of the tank and not be involved in a new etch cycle. This would 
probably be achieved by having the false walls rest on the bottom of 
the tank but have slots or a row of holes 15cm up the walls for the 
etchant to flow back into the bubble channels during etching. 

If the false walls are thick, then less etchant is required in the 
tank. 

The etchant decent rate over the PCB surface could be tested with 
water and food colouring.

Regards
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> How about false walls and have the bubble flow
> up the PCB and the fluid flow down the side in
> a seperated channel behind the false walls
> 
>  |           |
>  |~~~~~~~~~~~|
>  |  |     |  |
>  |  |  |  |  |
>  |  | o|o |  |
>  |  | o|o |  |
>  |  |  |  |  |
>  |  |  |  |  |
>  |  |  |  |  |
>  |  | o|o |  |
>  |  | o|o |  |
>  |  |  |  |  |
>  |   _o o_   |
>  |  [ ] [ ]  |
>  '-----------'
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-05-01 by Stefan Trethan

On 5/1/08, warrenbrayshaw <warrenbrayshaw@...> wrote:
> I have been pondering the false walls idea for a while. I would
>  experiment with driving the bubbles up the tank walls to cause the
>  return flow of 'Unbubbled' etchant to flow down the surface of the
>  PCB. -This should take away the etching issues caused by the
>  incorrect bubble size or rate of bubbling.
>
>  The spacing between the false walls and the PCB should be kept small
>  to ensure there is a decending flow at the surface of the PCB. As the
>  etching by-product is heavier, having a decending flow makes sense.
>
>  The bubble bar/hose should be a little way up in the bubble channel.
>  I suspect the greater the column height of the bubbles the greater
>  the etchant flow rate will be. Bubbling may need to be much stronger
>  with this arrangement to induce the desired flow
The false walls mustn't be too close to the PCB either or the flow
will be impeded. I don't think "bubble drive" will create much
pressure.

I was thinking to have the false walls guide the bubbles towards the
PCB (narrowing at the top), but that would still leave the issue with
distributing bubbles evenly over the length of the PCB. This idea
would mostly eliminate that problem.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  It would be good if the etch by-products could stagnate on the bottom
>  of the tank and not be involved in a new etch cycle. This would
>  probably be achieved by having the false walls rest on the bottom of
>  the tank but have slots or a row of holes 15cm up the walls for the
>  etchant to flow back into the bubble channels during etching.
>
>  If the false walls are thick, then less etchant is required in the
>  tank.
>
>  The etchant decent rate over the PCB surface could be tested with
>  water and food colouring.
>
>  Regards
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: etch tank idea

2008-05-01 by Adam Seychell

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On 5/1/08, warrenbrayshaw <warrenbrayshaw@...> wrote:
>> I have been pondering the false walls idea for a while. I would
>>  experiment with driving the bubbles up the tank walls to cause the
>>  return flow of 'Unbubbled' etchant to flow down the surface of the
>>  PCB. -This should take away the etching issues caused by the
>>  incorrect bubble size or rate of bubbling.
>>
>>  The spacing between the false walls and the PCB should be kept small
>>  to ensure there is a decending flow at the surface of the PCB. As the
>>  etching by-product is heavier, having a decending flow makes sense.
>>
>>  The bubble bar/hose should be a little way up in the bubble channel.
>>  I suspect the greater the column height of the bubbles the greater
>>  the etchant flow rate will be. Bubbling may need to be much stronger
>>  with this arrangement to induce the desired flow
> The false walls mustn't be too close to the PCB either or the flow
> will be impeded. I don't think "bubble drive" will create much
> pressure.
> 
> I was thinking to have the false walls guide the bubbles towards the
> PCB (narrowing at the top), but that would still leave the issue with
> distributing bubbles evenly over the length of the PCB. This idea
> would mostly eliminate that problem.
> 
> ST
> 

The false walls would need to extend the entire length of the tank so 
there is no mixing between the rising and falling fluid flow. I'd also 
think they bubble tube *must* also extend the entire length of the tank 
so flow rate is equal and consistent across it's entire length.

I don't think it would be difficult to test. I thought about testing 
various tank configurations using water and confetti to see the flow 
patterns. Weather the bubbles should be on the outside or the inside of 
the two false walls could probably only be determined by etching real 
PCB material. The PCB to false wall spacing also matters. Too far gap 
between PCB and the false wall will reduce flow rate. Too close a gap 
will also reduce flow rate.

Re: etch tank idea

2008-05-01 by Jon Elson

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Smith <matt@...> wrote:
> You want either a magnetic drive pump (polypropylene would probably
be a 
> suitable material) or a peristaltic pump (actually a positive 
> displacement pump - a set of lobes on a rotor squeeze a plastic tube to 
> push the fluid along.)
I used a magnetic drive pump on an etcher some years ago.  The etchant
slowly ate the magnet material, eventually ruining the pump.  I made a
pump out of Plexiglas that ran at a low speed, and was driven by a
long Plexiglas vertical shaft that ran down through the fluid sump to
the pump.  This was seal-less.  The impeller bearing was a piece of
Plexi bar stock in a piece of Plexi tube, with a spiral groove on the
bar to work fluid through the bearing, to prevent heat buildup.  It
actually worked quite well.  I held the pump pieces together with a
bunch of nylon screws and was astonished that the FeCl2 etchant would
turn the nylon brittle and the screws would pop their heads in a
couple minutes.
These weren't "in the soup" but just got drips and splashes on them,
but that's all it took.

I eventually got a discarded Kepro "bench top" etcher which uses two
Little Giant brand pumps.  I suspect these pumps have titanium shafts,
and the rest of the lower section (impeller, impeller housing) are
some blue plastic that seems to hold up remarkably.

Jon

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.