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Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-12 by Alessio Sangalli

Hi, I moved recently to USA and I am building up my hobby "lab" from
scratch.

I already got a laminator (I hate to use the iron, the results are so
uncertain), the etching tank, H2O2 and muriatic acid, and the like.

I'm using Tom's page as a reference:
http://www.fullnet.com/~tomg/gooteepc.htm

I've read that a very good paper for toner transfer is the one found at
staples, SKU 471861 or 471865, called "photo basic" "gloss". I have
found one with the same name but a different SKU (648181):

http://www.staples.com/office/supplies/StaplesProductDisplay?storeId=10001&jspStoreDir=Staples&productId=274671&cmSearchKeyword=photo+basic+glossy&fromUrl=home&cmArea=SEARCH&catalogId=10051&langId=-1

It should be the same, right?


Then, Tom says the JetPrint "Multi-Project" paper is perfect for the
silk screen side. I have not found this paper at Wal*Mart or Staples.
Any idea which paper is good for this application?


Thank you
Alessio

Re: Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-12 by flightofharmony

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I moved recently to USA and I am building up my hobby "lab" from
> scratch.
> 
> I already got a laminator (I hate to use the iron, the results are so
> uncertain), the etching tank, H2O2 and muriatic acid, and the like.
> 
> I'm using Tom's page as a reference:
> http://www.fullnet.com/~tomg/gooteepc.htm
> 
> I've read that a very good paper for toner transfer is the one found at
> staples, SKU 471861 or 471865, called "photo basic" "gloss". I have
> found one with the same name but a different SKU (648181):
> 
> http://www.staples.com/office/supplies/StaplesProductDisplay?storeId=10001&jspStoreDir=Staples&productId=274671&cmSearchKeyword=photo+basic+glossy&fromUrl=home&cmArea=SEARCH&catalogId=10051&langId=-1
> 
> It should be the same, right?
> 
> 
> Then, Tom says the JetPrint "Multi-Project" paper is perfect for the
> silk screen side. I have not found this paper at Wal*Mart or Staples.
> Any idea which paper is good for this application?
> 
> 
> Thank you
> Alessio
>

The Staples paper is OK, but not great - It takes a LOT of work to get all the paper off. One that works much better is HP Presentation paper Q2546A - http://www.staples.com/office/supplies/StaplesProductDisplay?storeId=10001&jspStoreDir=Staples&productId=156882&cmSearchKeyword=q2546a&fromUrl=home&cmArea=SEARCH&catalogId=10051&langId=-1

This requires less pressure and heat than the Glossy Photo paper - I assume this is because of the lower thermal mass? - and comes off very cleanly.
A neat trick to help remove the paper: instead of soaking in water, soak the PCB+paper in ordinary white vinegar. The longer you leave it, the easier it is to remove, but about 10 minutes in room-temperature vinegar works great. Then a quick wipe with your thumb or a paper towel dipped in the vinegar and all the glue/coating comes right off.

~flight

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-12 by Alessio Sangalli

flightofharmony wrote:

> The Staples paper is OK, but not great - It takes a LOT of work to
> get all the paper off. One that works much better is HP Presentation
> paper Q2546A -
> http://www.staples.com/office/supplies/StaplesProductDisplay?storeId=10001&jspStoreDir=Staples&productId=156882&cmSearchKeyword=q2546a&fromUrl=home&cmArea=SEARCH&catalogId=10051&langId=-1

it seems it's even cheaper.

This works for both the PCB transfer and the silk screen?


bye
Alessio

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-12 by Morris Odell

>   Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen
>    Posted by: "Alessio Sangalli" alesan@... alessio_sangalli
>    Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:09 am ((PDT))
>
> Hi, I moved recently to USA and I am building up my hobby "lab" from
> scratch.
>
> I've read that a very good paper for toner transfer is the one found at
> staples, SKU 471861 or 471865, called "photo basic" "gloss". I have
> found one with the same name but a different SKU (648181):
>
> http://www.staples.com/office/supplies/StaplesProductDisplay?storeId=10001&jspStoreDir=Staples&productId=274671&cmSearchKeyword=photo+basic+glossy&fromUrl=home&cmArea=SEARCH&catalogId=10051&langId=-1
>
> It should be the same, right?
>
>
> Then, Tom says the JetPrint "Multi-Project" paper is perfect for the
> silk screen side. I have not found this paper at Wal*Mart or Staples.
> Any idea which paper is good for this application?

I don't know about what's available in the US, but down here in Australia 
Epson Photo Paper No S041140 is just perfect! If you can find something with 
a similar number in the US I'd go for it.

Morris

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-13 by Mike Oyama

>
> I don't know about what's available in the US, but down here in Australia
> Epson Photo Paper No S041140 is just perfect! If you can find something
> with
> a similar number in the US I'd go for it.
>
> Morris
>













Excellent tip. I'll give this a shot.

There are tons of online suppliers that will ship it here to the US.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Epson+Photo+Paper+No+S041140&oe=utf-8&cid=5113721969963852486&sa=button#ps-sellers

Some with really good prices and seller ratings too.

Thanks very much!


>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-13 by Piers Goodhew

It seems to me that you get best results with an *inkjet* gloss paper  
that doesn't melt in yr laser: they have a very thin plastic coating  
(to prevent the ink seeping into the paper) and this does the same  
thing with the toner - stops it "soaking" into the paper (and bonding  
too well with the fibres). Obviously finding one that doesn't melt can  
be hours of fun.

I'm currently working for an epson distributor, but I haven't got to  
the S041140 yet, just trying whatever's really dusty on the shelves.

PG
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 13/04/2009, at 10:22 AM, Mike Oyama wrote:

>
>
> >
> > I don't know about what's available in the US, but down here in  
> Australia
> > Epson Photo Paper No S041140 is just perfect! If you can find  
> something
> > with
> > a similar number in the US I'd go for it.
> >
> > Morris
> >
>
> Excellent tip. I'll give this a shot.
>
> There are tons of online suppliers that will ship it here to the US.
>
> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Epson+Photo+Paper+No+S041140&oe=utf-8&cid=5113721969963852486&sa=button#ps-sellers
>
> Some with really good prices and seller ratings too.
>
> Thanks very much!
>
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-13 by Roland F. Harriston

All of the inkjet "gloss" papers that I have seen were coated with a 
polished clay layer.
A "plastic" layer would not absorb the wetness of inkjet ink, clay does 
an still renders
a "glossy" appearance. "Plastic" (nearly all polymers) would melt and 
distort under the
heat of an iron or a laminator.  And, I don't think that any sensible 
photocopy operator
would want to run an unknown "plastic" material through a copy machine. 
There is
heat required to "fuse" the toner material.

Additionally, "plastic" (polymers)" are difficult to dissolve in water.

Roland F. Harriston, PD
(Pedantic Douche)
*********************


On 4/12/2009 10:55 PM, Piers Goodhew wrote:
> It seems to me that you get best results with an *inkjet* gloss paper
> that doesn't melt in yr laser: they have a very thin plastic coating
> (to prevent the ink seeping into the paper) and this does the same
> thing with the toner - stops it "soaking" into the paper (and bonding
> too well with the fibres). Obviously finding one that doesn't melt can
> be hours of fun.
>
> I'm currently working for an epson distributor, but I haven't got to
> the S041140 yet, just trying whatever's really dusty on the shelves.
>
> PG
>
> On 13/04/2009, at 10:22 AM, Mike Oyama wrote:
>
>    
>>      
>>> I don't know about what's available in the US, but down here in
>>>        
>> Australia
>>      
>>> Epson Photo Paper No S041140 is just perfect! If you can find
>>>        
>> something
>>      
>>> with
>>> a similar number in the US I'd go for it.
>>>
>>> Morris
>>>
>>>        
>> Excellent tip. I'll give this a shot.
>>
>> There are tons of online suppliers that will ship it here to the US.
>>
>> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Epson+Photo+Paper+No+S041140&oe=utf-8&cid=5113721969963852486&sa=button#ps-sellers
>>
>> Some with really good prices and seller ratings too.
>>
>> Thanks very much!
>>
>>      
>>>        
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>      
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-13 by Piers Goodhew

Hey, I was going to call you that ;-)

I haven't got the electron microscope out, but I believe the layer of  
plastic is topped with some sizing. It's certainly sticky on top, and  
certainly not water soluble which is why you have to reasonably  
vigourously toothbrush the whole affair once you've soaked the paper  
off (it's pretty brittle once you've got the paper away).

It could be molybdenum, it cold be ectoplasm, but there's *something*  
coating the best paper I've used, and it's insoluble, thin, and toner  
cannot pass through it onto the wood fibres.

PG
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 14/04/2009, at 1:25 AM, Roland F. Harriston wrote:

> All of the inkjet "gloss" papers that I have seen were coated with a
> polished clay layer.
> A "plastic" layer would not absorb the wetness of inkjet ink, clay  
> does
> an still renders
> a "glossy" appearance. "Plastic" (nearly all polymers) would melt and
> distort under the
> heat of an iron or a laminator. And, I don't think that any sensible
> photocopy operator
> would want to run an unknown "plastic" material through a copy  
> machine.
> There is
> heat required to "fuse" the toner material.
>
> Additionally, "plastic" (polymers)" are difficult to dissolve in  
> water.
>
> Roland F. Harriston, PD
> (Pedantic Douche)
> *********************
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-14 by Roland F. Harriston

The need to "scrub" is a function of the fusing process of laser 
printing where the toner,
tiny polymer pellets, are fused to the paper base by way of heating. 
This adhesion
is usually pretty firm, and in order to separate the toner (polymer) 
from the paper, some
abrasion is required, although I have used some papers where the paper 
base separates
from the toner quite easily with little or no scrubbing.

There are probably some papers used in ink jet printing that are as you 
describe, but I think
that they would be the premium grade "professional" types that might not 
be suitable for
laser transfer PCB fabrication.

I have seen some papers of this type that are sold in large, long rolls.

Roland F. Harriston, PD
******************





On 4/13/2009 3:51 PM, Piers Goodhew wrote:
>
>
> Hey, I was going to call you that ;-)
>
> I haven't got the electron microscope out, but I believe the layer of
> plastic is topped with some sizing. It's certainly sticky on top, and
> certainly not water soluble which is why you have to reasonably
> vigourously toothbrush the whole affair once you've soaked the paper
> off (it's pretty brittle once you've got the paper away).
>
> It could be molybdenum, it cold be ectoplasm, but there's *something*
> coating the best paper I've used, and it's insoluble, thin, and toner
> cannot pass through it onto the wood fibres.
>
> PG
>
> On 14/04/2009, at 1:25 AM, Roland F. Harriston wrote:
>
> > All of the inkjet "gloss" papers that I have seen were coated with a
> > polished clay layer.
> > A "plastic" layer would not absorb the wetness of inkjet ink, clay
> > does
> > an still renders
> > a "glossy" appearance. "Plastic" (nearly all polymers) would melt and
> > distort under the
> > heat of an iron or a laminator. And, I don't think that any sensible
> > photocopy operator
> > would want to run an unknown "plastic" material through a copy
> > machine.
> > There is
> > heat required to "fuse" the toner material.
> >
> > Additionally, "plastic" (polymers)" are difficult to dissolve in
> > water.
> >
> > Roland F. Harriston, PD
> > (Pedantic Douche)
> > *********************
> >
>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.285 / Virus Database: 270.11.54/2056 - Release Date: 04/13/09 05:51:00
>
>    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-15 by michael tenore

Hi! 
I saw the comment abot the HP Presentaion paper. So I went to staples yesterday and bought a package!
I  took a board design and printed it on this paper and I am very happy with the results! It was easy to iron on in only about three or four minutes,and a soak of ten minutes in water and the paper was fairly easy to remove.I will try the Vinegar on my next ry in a day or two!
I will make a test pattern to see how thin a trace I can make with it.I got a decent line down to 15 mils so far.Using a iron..

Thanks for the info

Mike T




________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: flightofharmony <flight@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 7:10:10 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I moved recently to USA and I am building up my hobby "lab" from
> scratch.
> 
> I already got a laminator (I hate to use the iron, the results are so
> uncertain), the etching tank, H2O2 and muriatic acid, and the like.
> 
> I'm using Tom's page as a reference:
> http://www.fullnet. com/~tomg/ gooteepc. htm
> 
> I've read that a very good paper for toner transfer is the one found at
> staples, SKU 471861 or 471865, called "photo basic" "gloss". I have
> found one with the same name but a different SKU (648181):
> 
> http://www.staples. com/office/ supplies/ StaplesProductDi splay?storeId= 10001&jspStoreDi r=Staples& productId= 274671&cmSearchK eyword=photo+ basic+glossy& fromUrl=home& cmArea=SEARCH& catalogId= 10051&langId= -1
> 
> It should be the same, right?
> 
> 
> Then, Tom says the JetPrint "Multi-Project" paper is perfect for the
> silk screen side. I have not found this paper at Wal*Mart or Staples.
> Any idea which paper is good for this application?
> 
> 
> Thank you
> Alessio
>

The Staples paper is OK, but not great - It takes a LOT of work to get all the paper off. One that works much better is HP Presentation paper Q2546A - http://www.staples. com/office/ supplies/ StaplesProductDi splay?storeId= 10001&jspStoreDi r=Staples& productId= 156882&cmSearchK eyword=q2546a& fromUrl=home& cmArea=SEARCH& catalogId= 10051&langId= -1

This requires less pressure and heat than the Glossy Photo paper - I assume this is because of the lower thermal mass? - and comes off very cleanly.
A neat trick to help remove the paper: instead of soaking in water, soak the PCB+paper in ordinary white vinegar. The longer you leave it, the easier it is to remove, but about 10 minutes in room-temperature vinegar works great. Then a quick wipe with your thumb or a paper towel dipped in the vinegar and all the glue/coating comes right off.

~flight




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Which paper for toner transfer, traces and silk screen

2009-04-15 by Alessio Sangalli

michael tenore wrote:

> the Vinegar on my next ry in a day or two! I will make a test pattern
> to see how thin a trace I can make with it.I got a decent line down
> to 15 mils so far.Using a iron..

Hi, isn't there a "reference" master to test the accuracy of the system?

For example, my friend Vincenzo has something that he uses to calibrate
his UV equipment:

http://www.vincenzov.net/tutorial/stampati/bromografo.htm
in particular:
http://www.vincenzov.net/tutorial/stampati/test.pdf

bye
as

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