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“Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

“Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-23 by jc805sb

I am etching general pcb's and also etching pcb's 
for MEMS devices.  The MEMS uses copper pads as small as 
possible so I am attempting to get down to 0.125mm (0.005")
and am trying the laminator+toner transfer with treated
paper and "GreenTRF" process.  Others do this for SMT
according to online sources so I am hopeful it will work.


In researching alternatives (especially flexi materials)
 I ran across a white paper at Dupont.  
This paper references a resin which reduces
undercut.  Anyone hear about this before?


Tech Talk 
Fine Lines in High Yield  (Part CXLI) 
Ferric Chloride Etching of Copper 
Karl H. Dietz  (for CircuiTree Magazine,  April, 2008) 


http://www2.dupont.com/Imaging_Materials/en_US/tech_info/techtalk.html



Quote:


Ferric chloride has the reputation of giving a more favorable etch factor (less lateral etch) 
than cupric chloride. I don't have data to this effect, and engineers whom I talked to and who 
had experience with both processes in PWB fabrication did not have solid results to corrobo- 
rate this, in part because equipment parameters also affect the etch factor and processes in 
different equipment sets are difficult to compare. It is not obvious what component in the 
ferric chloride etchant might act as a banking agent to protect the etched side wall of a 
copper feature from further lateral etching. "Dragon's Blood", a red naturally occurring resin 
has been used successfully to protect side walls from more lateral etching.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-23 by David Griffith

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009, jc805sb wrote:
> In researching alternatives (especially flexi materials)
> I ran across a white paper at Dupont.
> This paper references a resin which reduces
> undercut.  Anyone hear about this before?

I'm familiar with Dragon's Blood, but not in this context.  The only uses 
I've been aware of are incense and perfumery.  It seems rather expensive 
for this application.  That being said, it's easy to obtain large 
quantities, if you're thinking of a baseball-sized lump of resin.  It 
produces a sweet and fruity scent when burned.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi@...

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-23 by javaguy11111

Are you trying to mount MEMs devices on a pcb or using a pcb for making MEMs devices?


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> I am etching general pcb's and also etching pcb's 
> for MEMS devices.  The MEMS uses copper pads as small as 
> possible so I am attempting to get down to 0.125mm (0.005")
> and am trying the laminator+toner transfer with treated
> paper and "GreenTRF" process.  Others do this for SMT
> according to online sources so I am hopeful it will work.
>

Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-23 by jc805sb

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@...> wrote:
>
>  Are you trying to mount MEMs devices on a pcb or using a pcb for making MEMs devices?
> 

I am etching copper patterns which operate as the MEMS
(the field calls it MEMS although there's nothing mechanical).
I have pictures on my blog here,
http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280

The pictures show pretty poor etch results which 
I am trying to improve using the best SMT techniques first.
Pad size/spacing is 1mm x 1mm with 0.125mm gap, or smaller!

Other researchers in the field have made similar MEMS
on flexi boards.  I can list some interesting articles
if interested.  These boards move liquid droplets across
surfaces (even vertical surfaces).  Though this requires
maybe >+1000V.

Something tangentially interesting, some researchers used
an "aborted etch" method with multiple dips in etch and
multiple mask steps, to make copper traces of different 
heights.  Not useful for standard PCB however they were
able to use it as MEMS for nanoparticle separation.
They used ferric chloride as the etchant and found it 
to be a linear etch, so the copper "steps" could be 
precisely made.   These steps were 10um to 50um or 
something.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I am etching general pcb's and also etching pcb's 
> > for MEMS devices.  The MEMS uses copper pads as small as 
> > possible so I am attempting to get down to 0.125mm (0.005")
> > and am trying the laminator+toner transfer with treated
> > paper and "GreenTRF" process.  Others do this for SMT
> > according to online sources so I am hopeful it will work.
> >
>

Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-23 by javaguy11111

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@> wrote:
> >
> >  Are you trying to mount MEMs devices on a pcb or using a pcb for making MEMs devices?
> > 
> 
> I am etching copper patterns which operate as the MEMS
> (the field calls it MEMS although there's nothing mechanical).
> I have pictures on my blog here,
> http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280
> 
> The pictures show pretty poor etch results which 
> I am trying to improve using the best SMT techniques first.
> Pad size/spacing is 1mm x 1mm with 0.125mm gap, or smaller!
> 
> Other researchers in the field have made similar MEMS
> on flexi boards.  I can list some interesting articles
> if interested.  These boards move liquid droplets across
> surfaces (even vertical surfaces).  Though this requires
> maybe >+1000V.
> 
> Something tangentially interesting, some researchers used
> an "aborted etch" method with multiple dips in etch and
> multiple mask steps, to make copper traces of different 
> heights.  Not useful for standard PCB however they were
> able to use it as MEMS for nanoparticle separation.
> They used ferric chloride as the etchant and found it 
> to be a linear etch, so the copper "steps" could be 
> precisely made.   These steps were 10um to 50um or 
> something.
> 
> 

I have some hopes of doing some homebrew MEMs experimentation. I am just getting back into board building and starting to do some work with photoresist. Once I get my technique refined, I will probably jump into a little MEMs experimentation.

I did try a little electrowetting experimentation a year of so ago when I first heard about it. Nothing too sophisticated, just tried to verify the concept. Unfortunately it did not really work for me.

I have often thought of starting a homebrew MEMs/microfluidics group similar to this group, but I really would not have the time to maintain it.

Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-23 by Daniel Howard Bryant

In the summer of 2003 I witnessed a very similar technology at a joint ISA-ESA-IEEE conference in Arkansas. The presentation was about how to carry liquids(a droplet) into a disposable IC that was going to be designed to analyze blood...they called it a DOC (doctor on a chip). 

If my memory serves me correctly, not only did you have to have the spacing between the parallel traces exact and use high voltage, but the key was the frequency of the high voltage. The liquid droplets were like the insulators in a capacitor, the drive circuitry had an inductor in it, and at the resonant frequency the impedance of the liquid droplet was minimum, but IIRC this resonant frequency was superimposed on top of a HVDC pontential. 
Basically the parallel traces were like the rails of a rail gun and the liquid droplet was like the projectile, and the demonstrator was able to move the liquid droplet around the PCB in between the parallel traces. Then the demonstrator went to show a huge grid design that would properly mix drugs using this technology, so you could have a DOC and POC (pharmacist on a chip).

The key point that the demonstrator made was that the moving action of the liquid droplet was not due to lorentz force or EM, but it was due to an electrostatic force. 

Cheers,
Daniel







--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Are you trying to mount MEMs devices on a pcb or using a pcb for making MEMs devices?
> > > 
> > 
> > I am etching copper patterns which operate as the MEMS
> > (the field calls it MEMS although there's nothing mechanical).
> > I have pictures on my blog here,
> > http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280
> > 
> > The pictures show pretty poor etch results which 
> > I am trying to improve using the best SMT techniques first.
> > Pad size/spacing is 1mm x 1mm with 0.125mm gap, or smaller!
> > 
> > Other researchers in the field have made similar MEMS
> > on flexi boards.  I can list some interesting articles
> > if interested.  These boards move liquid droplets across
> > surfaces (even vertical surfaces).  Though this requires
> > maybe >+1000V.
> > 
> > Something tangentially interesting, some researchers used
> > an "aborted etch" method with multiple dips in etch and
> > multiple mask steps, to make copper traces of different 
> > heights.  Not useful for standard PCB however they were
> > able to use it as MEMS for nanoparticle separation.
> > They used ferric chloride as the etchant and found it 
> > to be a linear etch, so the copper "steps" could be 
> > precisely made.   These steps were 10um to 50um or 
> > something.
> > 
> > 
> 
> I have some hopes of doing some homebrew MEMs experimentation. I am just getting back into board building and starting to do some work with photoresist. Once I get my technique refined, I will probably jump into a little MEMs experimentation.
> 
> I did try a little electrowetting experimentation a year of so ago when I first heard about it. Nothing too sophisticated, just tried to verify the concept. Unfortunately it did not really work for me.
> 
> I have often thought of starting a homebrew MEMs/microfluidics group similar to this group, but I really would not have the time to maintain it.
>

Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-24 by a3v03v0

I would guess that you are aware of these, but in case you are not.

Pulsar's paper is coated with starch and will not pull properly attached
toner from a PCB.  The starch dissolves allowing the paper to float away
from the PCB.

Pulsar has a foil the will help bridge pinholes in the toner.  It does
not bridge missing toner.

The pulsar site also has/had a page on etching the pcb using a sponge. 
The mechanical action greatly reduces the etching time.  It uses Ferric
Chloride so a vent hood is a must.

Daniel Johnson

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" javaguy11111@
wrote:
> >
> >  Are you trying to mount MEMs devices on a pcb or using a pcb for
making MEMs devices?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >
>
> I am etching copper patterns which operate as the MEMS
> (the field calls it MEMS although there's nothing mechanical).
> I have pictures on my blog here,
> http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280
>
> The pictures show pretty poor etch results which
> I am trying to improve using the best SMT techniques first.
> Pad size/spacing is 1mm x 1mm with 0.125mm gap, or smaller!
>
> Other researchers in the field have made similar MEMS
> on flexi boards.  I can list some interesting articles
> if interested.  These boards move liquid droplets across
> surfaces (even vertical surfaces).  Though this requires
> maybe >+1000V.
>
> Something tangentially interesting, some researchers used
> an "aborted etch" method with multiple dips in etch and
> multiple mask steps, to make copper traces of different
> heights.  Not useful for standard PCB however they were
> able to use it as MEMS for nanoparticle separation.
> They used ferric chloride as the etchant and found it
> to be a linear etch, so the copper "steps" could be
> precisely made.   These steps were 10um to 50um or
> something.
>
>
>
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I am etching general pcb's and also etching pcb's
> > > for MEMS devices.  The MEMS uses copper pads as small as
> > > possible so I am attempting to get down to 0.125mm (0.005")
> > > and am trying the laminator+toner transfer with treated
> > > paper and "GreenTRF" process.  Others do this for SMT
> > > according to online sources so I am hopeful it will work.
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: “Dragon’s Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-24 by Russell Shaw

a3v03v0 wrote:
> I would guess that you are aware of these, but in case you are not.
> 
> Pulsar's paper is coated with starch and will not pull properly attached
> toner from a PCB.  The starch dissolves allowing the paper to float away
> from the PCB.
> 
> Pulsar has a foil the will help bridge pinholes in the toner.  It does
> not bridge missing toner.
> 
> The pulsar site also has/had a page on etching the pcb using a sponge. 
> The mechanical action greatly reduces the etching time.  It uses Ferric
> Chloride so a vent hood is a must.

You could add starch to your own paper.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q="spray+starch"&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

http://frugalliving.about.com/od/colthing/r/Spray_Starch.htm

Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-24 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@> wrote:
> >
> >  Are you trying to mount MEMs devices on a pcb or using a pcb for making MEMs devices?
> > 
> 
> I am etching copper patterns which operate as the MEMS
> (the field calls it MEMS although there's nothing mechanical).
> I have pictures on my blog here,
> http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280
> 
> The pictures show pretty poor etch results which 
> I am trying to improve using the best SMT techniques first.
> Pad size/spacing is 1mm x 1mm with 0.125mm gap, or smaller!

I tried to leave this comment on your blog, it said it was too "spammy":

Nice!

What method are you using to make the PCBs?

Are there any issues from the current flow or from copper going into solution?

Steve Greenfield

Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-25 by jc805sb

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "a3v03v0" <a3v03v0@...> wrote:
>
> I would guess that you are aware of these, but in case you are not.
> 
> Pulsar's paper is coated with starch and will not pull properly attached
> toner from a PCB.  The starch dissolves allowing the paper to float away
> from the PCB.
> 
> Pulsar has a foil the will help bridge pinholes in the toner.  It does
> not bridge missing toner.
> 
> The pulsar site also has/had a page on etching the pcb using a sponge. 
> The mechanical action greatly reduces the etching time.  It uses Ferric
> Chloride so a vent hood is a must.
> 
> Daniel Johnson

Yes thanks - I got all the Pulsar stuff recently and have
finished etching 2 boards using the starch paper and the
Green laminating paper.  Also I got the pulsar-recommended
laminator which is amazing, I should have tried it sooner.

The results so far look much better esp. using the 
Green plastic, the resulting copper is very solid, no 
pock marks.  Though the edges are quite jagged.

I am using HCl + H2O2 etchant and have so far not tried
the sponge method.  My etch times are definitely too slow
considering these are very small boards.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" javaguy11111@
> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Are you trying to mount MEMs devices on a pcb or using a pcb for
> making MEMs devices?
> > >
> >
> > I am etching copper patterns which operate as the MEMS
> > (the field calls it MEMS although there's nothing mechanical).
> > I have pictures on my blog here,
> > http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280
> >
> > The pictures show pretty poor etch results which
> > I am trying to improve using the best SMT techniques first.
> > Pad size/spacing is 1mm x 1mm with 0.125mm gap, or smaller!
> >
> > Other researchers in the field have made similar MEMS
> > on flexi boards.  I can list some interesting articles
> > if interested.  These boards move liquid droplets across
> > surfaces (even vertical surfaces).  Though this requires
> > maybe >+1000V.
> >
> > Something tangentially interesting, some researchers used
> > an "aborted etch" method with multiple dips in etch and
> > multiple mask steps, to make copper traces of different
> > heights.  Not useful for standard PCB however they were
> > able to use it as MEMS for nanoparticle separation.
> > They used ferric chloride as the etchant and found it
> > to be a linear etch, so the copper "steps" could be
> > precisely made.   These steps were 10um to 50um or
> > something.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am etching general pcb's and also etching pcb's
> > > > for MEMS devices.  The MEMS uses copper pads as small as
> > > > possible so I am attempting to get down to 0.125mm (0.005")
> > > > and am trying the laminator+toner transfer with treated
> > > > paper and "GreenTRF" process.  Others do this for SMT
> > > > according to online sources so I am hopeful it will work.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-25 by jc805sb

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jc805sb" <jc805sb@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Are you trying to mount MEMs devices on a pcb or using a pcb for making MEMs devices?
> > > 
> > 
> > I am etching copper patterns which operate as the MEMS
> > (the field calls it MEMS although there's nothing mechanical).
> > I have pictures on my blog here,
> > http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/280
> > 
> > The pictures show pretty poor etch results which 
> > I am trying to improve using the best SMT techniques first.
> > Pad size/spacing is 1mm x 1mm with 0.125mm gap, or smaller!
> 
> I tried to leave this comment on your blog, it said it was too "spammy":
> 
> Nice!
> 
> What method are you using to make the PCBs?
> 
> Are there any issues from the current flow or from copper going into solution?
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

For the board in those pictures, it is made with a Laserjet 
3330 to xerox business paper, then toner transfer with iron,
then soak paper in water to remove, then etch in HCl + H2O2
etchant.  The result was lacking because the toner is porous,
and the fibers in the paper did not completely remove from
the toner, and some of the toner remained on the paper.
Additional step: To make the narrow junction ("spark gap"), 
the toner is cut through to the copper with a razor blade 
prior to etching, in the grid pattern.  These cuts create
a gap measured at 20-50 micron I believe.

Now I am trying Pulsar's equipment, which does yield very
clean traces.  (Print to laserjet on pulsar paper, then
toner transfer with laminator, then soak paper, then 
laminate green foil, then etch.)  Same step here, make
manual pads with razor blade prior to etching.


The picture does not show this well, though there is a plastic
film on top of the contacts, and the film is made hydrophobic.
These are necessary steps otherwise the droplet will stick
with surface tension.  Instructions:  get a thin plastic film
(i.e. saran wrap), spray with Rain-X, let dry.  Paint surface
of PCB with mineral oil, shake away oil.  Lay plastic film
on top, Rain-X side up.   Dispense droplet onto top of film 
from a tiny coffee straw, that will make a small droplet.   
Now zap electrodes with +1000V and see what happens.
By the way at high voltages like +1000V it is not so necessary
to etch a custom board.  I have moved droplets on pre-fabbed
SMT protoboards "Surfboard" brand from Digikey, using this
plastic film method, though it is not necessarily predictable.

The drawback is that lack of quality control in fabrication
leads to sparks across the spark gap, which ruins the effect
and possibly damages the board.
The current is <100uA because there is no conduction path,
it is like capacitor charging.  So it is possible to build
a simple HVPS to use (which I just posted schematic + layout
to as well).

This is a bit off topic now, I will post subsequent results
to my blog with pics.   Though I am still focusing on 
getting the etch quality much more predictable.


BTW the new generation of cell phones use "liquid lens"
technology, which is the same effect as this droplet, the 
voltage (~50-65v stepped up from cell phone battery) causes
the drop to deform thus focal length changes and a 
non-mechanical "lens focus" can be made.  The major difference
is the PCB contact pattern, which instead of causing the droplet
to move in the plane, causes the droplet to grow taller or 
shorter.  Maybe you want to try it, create some interesting 
effects with laser pointers or something.

Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-25 by sailingto

> Yes thanks - I got all the Pulsar stuff recently and have
> finished etching 2 boards using the starch paper and the
> Green laminating paper.  Also I got the pulsar-recommended
> laminator which is amazing, I should have tried it sooner.
> 
> The results so far look much better esp. using the 
> Green plastic, the resulting copper is very solid, no 
> pock marks.  Though the edges are quite jagged.

I have been wanting to try the Pulsar paper, especially the green foil step, maybe I'll just have to place an order for the green foil - $1.50/sheet of the starch paper just seems a tad expensive. Thanks for the info on how well the green foil paper works.

On the Pulsar laminator, isn't that the same GBC Personal laminator that Mybinding is selling on ebay for $25 shipped?  The photos look the same and both have the 2 temperature switch. I think they are the same. 

The one I ordered works so good I ordered a 2nd for a spare at $25 shipped - darn good price.

73 de Ken H>

Pulsar laminator, Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-26 by jc805sb

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingto@...> wrote:
>
> > Yes thanks - I got all the Pulsar stuff recently and have
> > finished etching 2 boards using the starch paper and the
> > Green laminating paper.  Also I got the pulsar-recommended
> > laminator which is amazing, I should have tried it sooner.
> > 
> > The results so far look much better esp. using the 
> > Green plastic, the resulting copper is very solid, no 
> > pock marks.  Though the edges are quite jagged.
> 
> I have been wanting to try the Pulsar paper, especially the green foil step, maybe I'll just have to place an order for the green foil - $1.50/sheet of the starch paper just seems a tad expensive. Thanks for the info on how well the green foil paper works.
> 
> On the Pulsar laminator, isn't that the same GBC Personal laminator that Mybinding is selling on ebay for $25 shipped?  The photos look the same and both have the 2 temperature switch. I think they are the same. 
> 
> The one I ordered works so good I ordered a 2nd for a spare at $25 shipped - darn good price.
> 


I bought the pulsar laminator from Digikey.  The description
on his site said there were different models under the same
name.  For $45 or whatever, I went with digikey.  It has
the following buttons:  3mil/5mil, power, release.  It
has the following lights:  Power, Ready.  It seems to have
some issues swallowing 1/16" copper clad FR4 wider than 6",
it requires some pushing and there is a loud pop when it comes
out the back.   Pulsar says to use 1/32" copper clad.
Running the PCB thru 1 time, the toner did not stick well.  
Running it through 5 times rapidly in succession, got 
100% transfer.

The one on ebay you mention: looks the same.  Same color
("blue").  Same buttons.  Same size (9").  At $25 it is
half the cost (with free ship too).


For $25 that is almost cheaper than a clothes iron.  Not sure
what a $79 clothes iron does differently than the $12.99 one, 
though walmart had several.


I might try the temporary tattoo idea using this laminator.  
Though that's a different project, LOL.

Pulsar laminator, Re: “Dragon's Blood” resin reduces undercut?

2009-06-26 by sailingto

> I might try the temporary tattoo idea using this laminator.  
> Though that's a different project, LOL.
>

Tell us about this temporary tattoo idea - is there a way to make those I don't know about?  I've got a couple of granddaughters who would LOVE those things...  especially custom made ones.

73 de Ken H>

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