Homebrew PCBs

Hello...

I'm start journey to make inkjet head for printing pcb's. As far I know 
all direct print inkjet have problem's with ink and head itself is 
problematic. So I was just trying to make one pixel piezo head capable 
to jet etch resist for making traces and after that to print real solder 
resist mask.

As far I know the head itself is made from 3 components. The chamber 
with variable volume, the input port capilar and the nozle.

I was try to make capilar just with zigzag milling the pcb just 0.1mm 
deep and after that gluing transparent foil ontop. The capilar is 15cm 
long and seems that is ok. The chamber is made inside same piece just 
the depth is set to 0.5mm and is covered with piezo buzzer glued on top.
For the nozzle I just try if I can do that small hole and I can. The 
hole of 0.08mm can be done without some special tool.

See photos.

Slavko.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Interesting!

I imagine using this with an XY table could make up for the lack of resolution. With a conventional inkjet printer, since the location of the head and nozzles are fixed, resolution must make up for lack of placement control of the head.

Drop size might be an issue. However, I imagine you could shoot just about anything out of your single jet.

Is there a UV cure conductive ink, perhaps?

You may require a constant ink feed. I have some pages to flesh out:
<http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/bulkinksystem/HydraulicConstantPressureExample02Web.jpg>

<http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/bulkinksystem/ExtensiveThoughtsOnCIS.html>

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:

>
> Hello...
> 
> I'm start journey to make inkjet head for printing pcb's. As far I know 
> all direct print inkjet have problem's with ink and head itself is 
> problematic. So I was just trying to make one pixel piezo head capable 
> to jet etch resist for making traces and after that to print real solder 
> resist mask.
> 
> As far I know the head itself is made from 3 components. The chamber 
> with variable volume, the input port capilar and the nozle.
> 
> I was try to make capilar just with zigzag milling the pcb just 0.1mm 
> deep and after that gluing transparent foil ontop. The capilar is 15cm 
> long and seems that is ok. The chamber is made inside same piece just 
> the depth is set to 0.5mm and is covered with piezo buzzer glued on top.
> For the nozzle I just try if I can do that small hole and I can. The 
> hole of 0.08mm can be done without some special tool.
> 
> See photos.
> 
> Slavko.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

alienrelics pravi:
> Interesting!
>
> I imagine using this with an XY table could make up for the lack of resolution. With a conventional inkjet printer, since the location of the head and nozzles are fixed, resolution must make up for lack of placement control of the head.
>
> Drop size might be an issue. However, I imagine you could shoot just about anything out of your single jet.
>
> Is there a UV cure conductive ink, perhaps?
>
> You may require a constant ink feed. I have some pages to flesh out:
> <http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/bulkinksystem/HydraulicConstantPressureExample02Web.jpg>
>
> <http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/bulkinksystem/ExtensiveThoughtsOnCIS.html>
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
>   
I will try that with my CNC. The resolution is just right for that. But 
the speed can be to low. But if head pass the test with CNC then I can 
make another fast XY machine.
About drop size I have no clue what I can expect. I can make nozzle very 
thin but I think for the solder resist I need the biger nozle as I need 
thick layer. And If think work I can build another 7 nozles and have 8 
nozles as in old dot matrix day's.

Stil need a lot of experiment here. I just think how to observe drop or 
to capture it? Is it drop? Is it stream? Maybe some strobo light 
sinchronised with firing pulses?
My interest right now is to make printer able to print stop mask layer 
on pcb (green stuf). After that I go finer. And if works then this can 
be just great for flip "n" print idea...

Slavko.

now I gona to check that links....

Slavko Kocjancic wrote: 
> 
> I'm start journey to make inkjet head for printing pcb's. As far I
> know all direct print inkjet have problem's with ink and head itself
> is problematic. So I was just trying to make one pixel piezo head
> capable to jet etch resist for making traces and after that to print
> real solder resist mask.

Hi, 

There is something like that available
http://www.microfab.com/equipment/devices.html

I have seen your name in CNC related threads, so if is in your interest,
I remember one long thread of CNC related ideas from one guy which
wanted to use an injector from a modern car diesel engine to build a CNC
solder paste application machine. Interesting at first but stopped at
the idea. I disassembled several diesel machines and repaired them,
mostly big engines, is really fun for me, but all with classical
injection system, newer car engines have constant pressure diesel pump
and an electronically controlled injector with built-in valve. It may
work as the devices above, never play with one but they should have the
pressure valve and the very thin exit hole, so they need to be hacked.

But you may consider an old HP head. Is simpler to build, and you can
find cheap CISS systems on eBay for relevant ones. If you search for
direct inkjet compositions they are mostly if not all for thermal heads.
It can evaporate the solvent making higher solids on surface less on the
inkjet, reducing viscosity and surface tension problems. Time ago when i
was searching for this i found one company which had a custom built
epoxy printer and the photo showed an HP45 head in there. Didn't wrote
down the url and can't find it anymore. And the
guy-who-uses-this-group-to-make-money is selling this heads, you may
find an old HP printer and extract some fun from it. 

Simao

Simao Cardoso pravi:
> Slavko Kocjancic wrote: 
>   
>> I'm start journey to make inkjet head for printing pcb's. As far I
>> know all direct print inkjet have problem's with ink and head itself
>> is problematic. So I was just trying to make one pixel piezo head
>> capable to jet etch resist for making traces and after that to print
>> real solder resist mask.
>>     
>
> Hi, 
>
> There is something like that available
> http://www.microfab.com/equipment/devices.html
>   
Seems good point. But its probably too expensive as price is not listed. 
(If price is not listed on web then near all the time that is done to 
not scare people)
Even 100Eur is high price for me.
> I have seen your name in CNC related threads, so if is in your interest,
>   
Yes I'm on cnczone.com too. :D   A lot of hobbyes but near nill money 
makers.
> I remember one long thread of CNC related ideas from one guy which
> wanted to use an injector from a modern car diesel engine to build a CNC
> solder paste application machine. Interesting at first but stopped at
> the idea. I disassembled several diesel machines and repaired them,
> mostly big engines, is really fun for me, but all with classical
> injection system, newer car engines have constant pressure diesel pump
> and an electronically controlled injector with built-in valve. It may
> work as the devices above, never play with one but they should have the
> pressure valve and the very thin exit hole, so they need to be hacked.
>   

I think in that way to. (presure maintained with pump and electronic 
valve to open it) But as I know the injector has more exit holes not 
only one.
> But you may consider an old HP head. Is simpler to build, and you can
> find cheap CISS systems on eBay for relevant ones. If you search for
> direct inkjet compositions they are mostly if not all for thermal heads.
>   
There is the problem as I want to use real solder mask. and this stuf is 
thick like honey. the epson head can't blow that stuf out of the nozzle.
> It can evaporate the solvent making higher solids on surface less on the
> inkjet, reducing viscosity and surface tension problems. Time ago when i
> was searching for this i found one company which had a custom built
> epoxy printer and the photo showed an HP45 head in there. Didn't wrote
>   
If that's true then I realy like to find that link.
> down the url and can't find it anymore. And the
> guy-who-uses-this-group-to-make-money is selling this heads, you may
> find an old HP printer and extract some fun from it. 
>
> Simao
>
>
>   
Slavko.

>There is something like that available
><http://www.microfab.com/equipment/devices.html>http://www.microfab.com/equipment/devices.html

any price there?
Cristian 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have had thoughts of doing something similar in the past.
You might want to take a look at this site.

http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/mps/FCS/FCS_drop.htm

I think it is about the simplest design I have seen for a 
droplet ejector that might be feasible for a serious hobbyist 
to build. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:

>
> Hello...
> 
> I'm start journey to make inkjet head for printing pcb's. As far I know 
> all direct print inkjet have problem's with ink and head itself is 
> problematic. So I was just trying to make one pixel piezo head capable 
> to jet etch resist for making traces and after that to print real solder 
> resist mask.
> 
> As far I know the head itself is made from 3 components. The chamber 
> with variable volume, the input port capilar and the nozle.
> 
> I was try to make capilar just with zigzag milling the pcb just 0.1mm 
> deep and after that gluing transparent foil ontop. The capilar is 15cm 
> long and seems that is ok. The chamber is made inside same piece just 
> the depth is set to 0.5mm and is covered with piezo buzzer glued on top.
> For the nozzle I just try if I can do that small hole and I can. The 
> hole of 0.08mm can be done without some special tool.
> 
> See photos.
> 
> Slavko.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Wow - Nice link. It seems like that would do it! Now if you used a 
copper  solution to put down traces instead of resist, you would 
really have something! Now that I'm about done with DLP, I could 
easily get interested in this    project! All of the systems we are 
using in this group waste a lot of copper, and an additive system 
rather than a subtractive (etching or cnc routing) would be great. I 
know that a lot of work is being done on this, but the ability to 
drop a singe dot where you want it would let us do a lot of experimental work.

Mark


At 08:48 AM 5/28/2010, you wrote:

>I have had thoughts of doing something similar in the past.
>You might want to take a look at this site.
>
>http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/mps/FCS/FCS_drop.htm
>
>I think it is about the simplest design I have seen for a
>droplet ejector that might be feasible for a serious hobbyist
>to build.
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello...
> >
> > I'm start journey to make inkjet head for printing pcb's. As far I know
> > all direct print inkjet have problem's with ink and head itself is
> > problematic. So I was just trying to make one pixel piezo head capable
> > to jet etch resist for making traces and after that to print real solder
> > resist mask.
> >
> > As far I know the head itself is made from 3 components. The chamber
> > with variable volume, the input port capilar and the nozle.
> >
> > I was try to make capilar just with zigzag milling the pcb just 0.1mm
> > deep and after that gluing transparent foil ontop. The capilar is 15cm
> > long and seems that is ok. The chamber is made inside same piece just
> > the depth is set to 0.5mm and is covered with piezo buzzer glued on top.
> > For the nozzle I just try if I can do that small hole and I can. The
> > hole of 0.08mm can be done without some special tool.
> >
> > See photos.
> >
> > Slavko.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

At 08:48 AM 5/28/2010, you wrote:
>> I have had thoughts of doing something similar in the past.
>> You might want to take a look at this site.
>>
>> http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/mps/FCS/FCS_drop.htm
>>
>> I think it is about the simplest design I have seen for a
>> droplet ejector that might be feasible for a serious hobbyist
>> to build.
>>
>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:
>>     
Seems very nice but how piezo is attached is very unclear.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:
>
> At 08:48 AM 5/28/2010, you wrote:
> >> I have had thoughts of doing something similar in the past.
> >> You might want to take a look at this site.
> >>
> >> http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/mps/FCS/FCS_drop.htm
> >>
> >> I think it is about the simplest design I have seen for a
> >> droplet ejector that might be feasible for a serious hobbyist
> >> to build.
> >>
> >> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@> wrote:
> >>     
> Seems very nice but how piezo is attached is very unclear.
>

From the site 

"A piezoelectric element adhesively attached to the reservoir tube "

javaguy11111 pravi:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:
>   
>> At 08:48 AM 5/28/2010, you wrote:
>>     
>>>> I have had thoughts of doing something similar in the past.
>>>> You might want to take a look at this site.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/mps/FCS/FCS_drop.htm
>>>>
>>>> I think it is about the simplest design I have seen for a
>>>> droplet ejector that might be feasible for a serious hobbyist
>>>> to build.
>>>>
>>>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@> wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>> Seems very nice but how piezo is attached is very unclear.
>>
>>     
>
> >From the site 
>
> "A piezoelectric element adhesively attached to the reservoir tube "
>
>
>
>   
I can read :D
But from picture/text I can't know how is realy done. Does piezo have 
hole? Is that glas tube splited at pieco? Just not clear enought to be 
sure how to deal with it.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:
>
> javaguy11111 pravi:
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@> wrote:
> >   
> >> At 08:48 AM 5/28/2010, you wrote:
> >>     
> >>>> I have had thoughts of doing something similar in the past.
> >>>> You might want to take a look at this site.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/mps/FCS/FCS_drop.htm
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it is about the simplest design I have seen for a
> >>>> droplet ejector that might be feasible for a serious hobbyist
> >>>> to build.
> >>>>
> >>>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@> wrote:
> >>>>     
> >>>>         
> >> Seems very nice but how piezo is attached is very unclear.
> >>
> >>     
> >
> > >From the site 
> >
> > "A piezoelectric element adhesively attached to the reservoir tube "
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> I can read :D
> But from picture/text I can't know how is realy done. Does piezo have 
> hole? Is that glas tube splited at pieco? Just not clear enought to be 
> sure how to deal with it.
>


It looks like the piezo has a hole. I am assuming that the attachment is using epoxy.

Doing a search on "ejector design Steven Zoltan" gives several hits on additional designs. A bit more research would need to be done to understand how the impulse from the piezo element gets transferred to the glass and then to the fluid. Some time modeling with an FEA program would help in understanding the exact mechanics of process and optimize the design.

javaguy11111 pravi:
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:
>   
>> javaguy11111 pravi:
>>     
>>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@> wrote:
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> At 08:48 AM 5/28/2010, you wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>>> I have had thoughts of doing something similar in the past.
>>>>>> You might want to take a look at this site.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/mps/FCS/FCS_drop.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it is about the simplest design I have seen for a
>>>>>> droplet ejector that might be feasible for a serious hobbyist
>>>>>> to build.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@> wrote:
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>> Seems very nice but how piezo is attached is very unclear.
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> >From the site 
>>>
>>> "A piezoelectric element adhesively attached to the reservoir tube "
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>> I can read :D
>> But from picture/text I can't know how is realy done. Does piezo have 
>> hole? Is that glas tube splited at pieco? Just not clear enought to be 
>> sure how to deal with it.
>>
>>     
>
>
> It looks like the piezo has a hole. I am assuming that the attachment is using epoxy.
>
> Doing a search on "ejector design Steven Zoltan" gives several hits on additional designs. A bit more research would need to be done to understand how the impulse from the piezo element gets transferred to the glass and then to the fluid. Some time modeling with an FEA program would help in understanding the exact mechanics of process and optimize the design.
>
>
>   
I'm already found that. Part's of some eboks and patents.
The piezo has hole and squeze the glas pipe. Nothing else! Just squezing 
glas pipete.
But of coures we can't find piezo with just right hole.... All that is 
custom made and $$$ of course...

Slavko.

Slavko Kocjancic wrote:

> Seems good point. But its probably too expensive as price is not
> listed. 

The point was to show a concept.

> 
> I think in that way to. (presure maintained with pump and electronic 
> valve to open it) But as I know the injector has more exit holes not 
> only one.

Was kind of dumb from me referring a diesel injector, gasoline ones are
way simpler. There is who said the fuel injector works but worth what
worth
http://fabathome.org/wiki/index.php/Tools:_Fuel_Injector

Other thing you may consider are those printing markers used in
production of cables, tubes , metallic rods (and almost everything else)
used for side marking of lengths, dates, part number, etc. Some are
inkjet type, they have larger and fewer dots, could be capable of more
viscous liquids. 

> There is the problem as I want to use real solder mask. and this stuf
> is thick like honey. 

Proper inks are difficult to source. But pump+tubes+single-dot-head is
too complex.

Sim�o

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Simao Cardoso <simaocardoso@...> wrote:
>
> Other thing you may consider are those printing markers used in
> production of cables, tubes , metallic rods (and almost everything else)
> used for side marking of lengths, dates, part number, etc. Some are
> inkjet type, they have larger and fewer dots, could be capable of more
> viscous liquids. 

At least some of them just use HP45 cartridge/head combos.

I have my doubts as to using solder mask as-is in an inkjet cartridge of any kind.

Steve Greenfield

alienrelics wrote:

> 
> At least some of them just use HP45 cartridge/head combos.
> I have my doubts as to using solder mask as-is in an inkjet cartridge
> of any kind.

And i don't argue with that. Inkjet soldermask technology seem more
related to fluid uv ink. I think even those require pumps, filters ,
heaters and agitators. The only thing i ever found acceptably simple was
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7429102.html
Something similar to common epoxy with a solvent. Viscosity under 5cp.
In a common type of printer. Still no easy knowledge or anything i would
try. Or at least i don't find myself smart enough for it. Maybe one day
will be a easy source for an usable ink. That or my twenty-something
youth believe in change.

Sim�o