Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-24 by lemar
Any further activity on this subject? I'm modifying an HP Laserjet 4+ and am trying to work out the timing issues. Just wondering what others are doing. LeMar
Thread
Direct Laser Printing
Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-25 by Tim S
I too would be interested in this. I have a pile of old Laserjet II, III and 4 printers that I could dedicate to this purpose. Right now I've taken a LJII and stripped it down to just the fuser and drive stepper. I'm getting the stepper to run from a microprocessor, I have it running from an arduino, but am going to use a small AVR, probably a ATiny2313. I am planning on controlling the fuser lamp with a micro also, to give me adjustable temperature. Hopefully this will be better than the iron method, my results with that are mixed at best. But my ultimate goal would be to print directly onto the board to cut out the paper printing step. If anyone has any experience, it would be helpful to know what worked and what didn't. Tim --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lemar" <doyle51241@...> wrote:
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> > Any further activity on this subject? > I'm modifying an HP Laserjet 4+ and am trying to work out the timing issues. Just wondering what others are doing. > > LeMar >
Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-25 by curt_rxr
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lemar" <doyle51241@...> wrote: > > Any further activity on this subject? > I'm modifying an HP Laserjet 4+ and am trying to work out the timing issues. Just wondering what others are doing. > > LeMar > Hi LeMar, I've tried direct printing and never had much luck getting good adherence i.e. the traces need lots of touch up. The simpler solution is to find a Xerox ( or Tek ) thermal wax printer. You can feed single sheets of thin PCB stock directly into an unmodified printer. The wax stands up to Adam's CuCL etching bath and you don't have to fool around with laminators, just print and etch! The printers been around for about ten years so they are cheap on the surplus market. The original post on this idea was from an engineering professor in Oregon I believe. An archive search might reveal more details. I've also experimented with EDM which gives great results with fine traces but is VERY SLOW. Make that Sllllooooooooowwwww!!! Curt
Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-25 by lemar
Apparently you have worked out the timing issues for the HP controller that wants to see paper moving at certain times. I'm curious what you've come up with. LeMar --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tim S" <fla.choreman@...> wrote:
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> > I too would be interested in this. I have a pile of old Laserjet II, III and 4 printers that I could dedicate to this purpose. Right now I've taken a LJII and stripped it down to just the fuser and drive stepper. I'm getting the stepper to run from a microprocessor, I have it running from an arduino, but am going to use a small AVR, probably a ATiny2313. I am planning on controlling the fuser lamp with a micro also, to give me adjustable temperature. Hopefully this will be better than the iron method, my results with that are mixed at best. > > But my ultimate goal would be to print directly onto the board to cut out the paper printing step. > > If anyone has any experience, it would be helpful to know what worked and what didn't. > > > Tim > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lemar" <doyle51241@> wrote: > > > > Any further activity on this subject? > > I'm modifying an HP Laserjet 4+ and am trying to work out the timing issues. Just wondering what others are doing. > > > > LeMar > > >
Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-26 by Andrewdavid.mathison
Hi, I hope I am not butting in here too much, apologies if that is the case. I used to be a Laser printer expert (for big ones weighing several tons!) but the principles are the same basically for all printers of this type. To get the tone from the drum, you have to have the opposite charge on the paper than the drum has. The drum has to be positive for some designs and negative for others....it depends on the manufacturer..... Some have the print character on the drum as an "absence" of charge (rest of drum charged positively or negatively), some have all of the drum except where the characters are as being an "absence" of charge, its almost impossible to say which printer has which without the repair manuals from the manufacturer...... Here is a link which explains one method charge wise:- http://www.chaminade.org/MIS/Articles/HowLaserPrintersWork.htm You may need to increase the "transfer" charge voltage to get enough toner directly on the board. Having a board with a metal coating (normal PCB) makes life very difficult for you. I personally think (never tested it!) that an inkjet printer would be a better start for direct printing.......also paper is pliable (and if correctly acclimatised will take a charge quite happily)and will "fit" better against the drum, the PCB is hard, maybe not quite flat and may simply not get near enough to "pick up" the toner correctly..... Getting laser printers to print on paper is sometimes quite a difficult process......let alone on metal!! Greetings from Andy Mathison [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-26 by Tim S
Hi LeMar, I only have the fuser and power supplys left in the LJ II. I stripped everything else off, I just wanted to be able to fuse the toner transfer artwork onto the copperclad instead of ironing it on. I just drive the SI-7300a stepper driver with a ATtiny2313 running a simple C program. That's as far as I have gotten thus far. Next, I plan to build a temperature controller for the fuser, based on the AC power supply from the LJ II. I will use a microprocessor to sense the temperature and turn the triac on and off to maintain a selected temperature in the fuser. Hopefully, this will allow me to fuse the artwork onto the copper by passing it through the LJ fuser. If there is interest, I will post my methods. I am interested in the direct printing, this is just an experiment to see if I can make this concept work for the .062 boards with toner transfer paper. If the fuser won't fuse the toner onto the copper, direct print won't work with these printers. Tim --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lemar" <doyle51241@...> wrote:
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> > > > Apparently you have worked out the timing issues for the HP controller that wants to see paper moving at certain times. I'm curious what you've come up with. > LeMar > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tim S" <fla.choreman@> wrote: > > > > I too would be interested in this. I have a pile of old Laserjet II, III and 4 printers that I could dedicate to this purpose. Right now I've taken a LJII and stripped it down to just the fuser and drive stepper. I'm getting the stepper to run from a microprocessor, I have it running from an arduino, but am going to use a small AVR, probably a ATiny2313. I am planning on controlling the fuser lamp with a micro also, to give me adjustable temperature. Hopefully this will be better than the iron method, my results with that are mixed at best. > > > > But my ultimate goal would be to print directly onto the board to cut out the paper printing step. > > > > If anyone has any experience, it would be helpful to know what worked and what didn't. > > > > > > Tim > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lemar" <doyle51241@> wrote: > > > > > > Any further activity on this subject? > > > I'm modifying an HP Laserjet 4+ and am trying to work out the timing issues. Just wondering what others are doing. > > > > > > LeMar > > > > > >
RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-26 by Boman33
Tim, Before worrying about the fuser, can you accurately transfer the toner to the PCB? I expect that to be the big problem to overcome. Bertho ==========================================================
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From: Tim S Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:46 Hi LeMar, I only have the fuser and power supplys left in the LJ II. I stripped everything else off, I just wanted to be able to fuse the toner transfer artwork onto the copperclad instead of ironing it on. I just drive the SI-7300a stepper driver with a ATtiny2313 running a simple C program. That's as far as I have gotten thus far. Next, I plan to build a temperature controller for the fuser, based on the AC power supply from the LJ II. I will use a microprocessor to sense the temperature and turn the triac on and off to maintain a selected temperature in the fuser. Hopefully, this will allow me to fuse the artwork onto the copper by passing it through the LJ fuser. If there is interest, I will post my methods. I am interested in the direct printing, this is just an experiment to see if I can make this concept work for the .062 boards with toner transfer paper. If the fuser won't fuse the toner onto the copper, direct print won't work with these printers. Tim
RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-26 by Mark Lerman
Toner transfers directly to pcb stock very easily, and very fine traces can be achieved. The problems are more mechanical than electrostatic. I, and several other people on this list have done this over and over, using a variety of printers and mods. It's also much easier to implement than either toner transfer or inkjet printing. Mark At 12:55 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote:
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>Tim, >Before worrying about the fuser, can you accurately transfer the toner to >the PCB? >I expect that to be the big problem to overcome. >Bertho >========================================================== >From: Tim S Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:46 >Hi LeMar, >I only have the fuser and power supplys left in the LJ II. I stripped >everything else off, I just wanted to be able to fuse the toner transfer >artwork onto the copperclad instead of ironing it on. I just drive the >SI-7300a stepper driver with a ATtiny2313 running a simple C program. That's >as far as I have gotten thus far. Next, I plan to build a temperature >controller for the fuser, based on the AC power supply from the LJ II. I >will use a microprocessor to sense the temperature and turn the triac on and >off to maintain a selected temperature in the fuser. Hopefully, this will >allow me to fuse the artwork onto the copper by passing it through the LJ >fuser. If there is interest, I will post my methods. > >I am interested in the direct printing, this is just an experiment to see if >I can make this concept work for the .062 boards with toner transfer paper. >If the fuser won't fuse the toner onto the copper, direct print won't work >with these printers. >Tim > > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-26 by lemar
Mark: The Laserjet 4+ that I'm modifying looks like it could be a good candidate for this project as it appears fairly robust. My problem at this point is that the controller wants to see paper moving (or not moving) at the right time or it stops the process and gives a paper jam message. I think if I can get the timing right the rest may be easier. Comments? LeMar
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> > Toner transfers directly to pcb stock very easily, and very fine > traces can be achieved. The problems are more mechanical than > electrostatic. I, and several other people on this list have done > this over and over, using a variety of printers and mods. It's also > much easier to implement than either toner transfer or inkjet printing. > > Mark > > > At 12:55 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote: > >Tim, > >Before worrying about the fuser, can you accurately transfer the toner to > >the PCB? > >I expect that to be the big problem to overcome. > >Bertho > >========================================================== > >From: Tim S Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:46 > >Hi LeMar, > >I only have the fuser and power supplys left in the LJ II. I stripped > >everything else off, I just wanted to be able to fuse the toner transfer > >artwork onto the copperclad instead of ironing it on. I just drive the > >SI-7300a stepper driver with a ATtiny2313 running a simple C program. That's > >as far as I have gotten thus far. Next, I plan to build a temperature > >controller for the fuser, based on the AC power supply from the LJ II. I > >will use a microprocessor to sense the temperature and turn the triac on and > >off to maintain a selected temperature in the fuser. Hopefully, this will > >allow me to fuse the artwork onto the copper by passing it through the LJ > >fuser. If there is interest, I will post my methods. > > > >I am interested in the direct printing, this is just an experiment to see if > >I can make this concept work for the .062 boards with toner transfer paper. > >If the fuser won't fuse the toner onto the copper, direct print won't work > >with these printers. > >Tim > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-26 by Mark Lerman
Lemar, What I do is connect the printer sensors to a $29 USD Dataq data logger and measure the timing that the printer expects. I can then emulate it with a little microcontroller. There are other ways, depending on the printer, that use the sensors (mostly) as is. The logger lets you see exactly what the printer needs to see, so it really simplifies experimentation. Mark At 05:50 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote:
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>Mark: >The Laserjet 4+ that I'm modifying looks like it could be a good >candidate for this project as it appears fairly robust. My problem >at this point is that the controller wants to see paper moving (or >not moving) at the right time or it stops the process and gives a >paper jam message. >I think if I can get the timing right the rest may be easier. Comments? > >LeMar > > > > > > Toner transfers directly to pcb stock very easily, and very fine > > traces can be achieved. The problems are more mechanical than > > electrostatic. I, and several other people on this list have done > > this over and over, using a variety of printers and mods. It's also > > much easier to implement than either toner transfer or inkjet printing. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 12:55 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote: > > >Tim, > > >Before worrying about the fuser, can you accurately transfer the toner to > > >the PCB? > > >I expect that to be the big problem to overcome. > > >Bertho > > >========================================================== > > >From: Tim S Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:46 > > >Hi LeMar, > > >I only have the fuser and power supplys left in the LJ II. I stripped > > >everything else off, I just wanted to be able to fuse the toner transfer > > >artwork onto the copperclad instead of ironing it on. I just drive the > > >SI-7300a stepper driver with a ATtiny2313 running a simple C > program. That's > > >as far as I have gotten thus far. Next, I plan to build a temperature > > >controller for the fuser, based on the AC power supply from the LJ II. I > > >will use a microprocessor to sense the temperature and turn the > triac on and > > >off to maintain a selected temperature in the fuser. Hopefully, this will > > >allow me to fuse the artwork onto the copper by passing it through the LJ > > >fuser. If there is interest, I will post my methods. > > > > > >I am interested in the direct printing, this is just an > experiment to see if > > >I can make this concept work for the .062 boards with toner > transfer paper. > > >If the fuser won't fuse the toner onto the copper, direct print won't work > > >with these printers. > > >Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, > and Photos: > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-27 by Mark Lerman
And, if I might reply to my own reply, a printing run takes a second or two, and if you don't like it you can wipe the board with a paper towel and run it through again. At 04:21 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote:
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>Toner transfers directly to pcb stock very easily, and very fine >traces can be achieved. The problems are more mechanical than >electrostatic. I, and several other people on this list have done >this over and over, using a variety of printers and mods. It's also >much easier to implement than either toner transfer or inkjet printing. > >Mark > > >At 12:55 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote: > >Tim, > >Before worrying about the fuser, can you accurately transfer the toner to > >the PCB? > >I expect that to be the big problem to overcome. > >Bertho > >========================================================== > >From: Tim S Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:46 > >Hi LeMar, > >I only have the fuser and power supplys left in the LJ II. I stripped > >everything else off, I just wanted to be able to fuse the toner transfer > >artwork onto the copperclad instead of ironing it on. I just drive the > >SI-7300a stepper driver with a ATtiny2313 running a simple C program. That's > >as far as I have gotten thus far. Next, I plan to build a temperature > >controller for the fuser, based on the AC power supply from the LJ II. I > >will use a microprocessor to sense the temperature and turn the triac on and > >off to maintain a selected temperature in the fuser. Hopefully, this will > >allow me to fuse the artwork onto the copper by passing it through the LJ > >fuser. If there is interest, I will post my methods. > > > >I am interested in the direct printing, this is just an experiment to see if > >I can make this concept work for the .062 boards with toner transfer paper. > >If the fuser won't fuse the toner onto the copper, direct print won't work > >with these printers. > >Tim > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >
Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-28 by Tim S
Mark, The exercise to convert the old LJII to a toner fuser is an intermediate step for me. I can print the artwork on photopaper and get good boards, but the ironing of the artwork onto the copperclad is the most variable and error prone part for me. So I decided to make the LJ fuser to add some consistency to the process. I know that others have done this with laminators, but I have a pile of old LJ II and III printers lying around, so that's what I'm using. If this works out, it will be a big step forward in the paper toner transfer method for me and allow me to get some boards made. That being said, I'm very interested in the direct transfer method, it obviously would be better than the paper process. It sounds like you have some experience with this process, could you share some information or links on how to implement it, if possible with the older LJ III printers? Is the 600dpi enough for 10 mil lines and spaces? I've Googled it but found little information. I just jumped into making my own PCBs with the toner transfer method and am a newb at it. So any direction you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Tim --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
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> > > And, if I might reply to my own reply, a printing run takes a second > or two, and if you don't like it you can wipe the board with a paper > towel and run it through again. > > > > At 04:21 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote: > >Toner transfers directly to pcb stock very easily, and very fine > >traces can be achieved. The problems are more mechanical than > >electrostatic. I, and several other people on this list have done > >this over and over, using a variety of printers and mods. It's also > >much easier to implement than either toner transfer or inkjet printing. > > > >Mark > > > > > >At 12:55 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote: > > >Tim, > > >Before worrying about the fuser, can you accurately transfer the toner to > > >the PCB? > > >I expect that to be the big problem to overcome. > > >Bertho > > >========================================================== > > >From: Tim S Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:46 > > >Hi LeMar, > > >I only have the fuser and power supplys left in the LJ II. I stripped > > >everything else off, I just wanted to be able to fuse the toner transfer > > >artwork onto the copperclad instead of ironing it on. I just drive the > > >SI-7300a stepper driver with a ATtiny2313 running a simple C program. That's > > >as far as I have gotten thus far. Next, I plan to build a temperature > > >controller for the fuser, based on the AC power supply from the LJ II. I > > >will use a microprocessor to sense the temperature and turn the triac on and > > >off to maintain a selected temperature in the fuser. Hopefully, this will > > >allow me to fuse the artwork onto the copper by passing it through the LJ > > >fuser. If there is interest, I will post my methods. > > > > > >I am interested in the direct printing, this is just an experiment to see if > > >I can make this concept work for the .062 boards with toner transfer paper. > > >If the fuser won't fuse the toner onto the copper, direct print won't work > > >with these printers. > > >Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Laser Printing
2010-10-28 by Mark Lerman
Tim, See the files section for this group. Pictures are at <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970>. Note however, that there are much simpler mods that others have done - search the archives of this group for DLP and Direct Laser Printing. Mark At 02:52 PM 10/28/2010, you wrote:
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>Mark, > >The exercise to convert the old LJII to a toner fuser is an >intermediate step for me. I can print the artwork on photopaper and >get good boards, but the ironing of the artwork onto the copperclad >is the most variable and error prone part for me. So I decided to >make the LJ fuser to add some consistency to the process. I know >that others have done this with laminators, but I have a pile of old >LJ II and III printers lying around, so that's what I'm using. If >this works out, it will be a big step forward in the paper toner >transfer method for me and allow me to get some boards made. > >That being said, I'm very interested in the direct transfer method, >it obviously would be better than the paper process. > >It sounds like you have some experience with this process, could you >share some information or links on how to implement it, if possible >with the older LJ III printers? Is the 600dpi enough for 10 mil >lines and spaces? I've Googled it but found little information. > >I just jumped into making my own PCBs with the toner transfer method >and am a newb at it. So any direction you can provide will be >greatly appreciated. > >Tim > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote: > > > > > > And, if I might reply to my own reply, a printing run takes a second > > or two, and if you don't like it you can wipe the board with a paper > > towel and run it through again. > > > > > > > > At 04:21 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote: > > >Toner transfers directly to pcb stock very easily, and very fine > > >traces can be achieved. The problems are more mechanical than > > >electrostatic. I, and several other people on this list have done > > >this over and over, using a variety of printers and mods. It's also > > >much easier to implement than either toner transfer or inkjet printing. > > > > > >Mark > > > > > > > > >At 12:55 PM 10/26/2010, you wrote: > > > >Tim, > > > >Before worrying about the fuser, can you accurately transfer > the toner to > > > >the PCB? > > > >I expect that to be the big problem to overcome. > > > >Bertho > > > >========================================================== > > > >From: Tim S Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:46 > > > >Hi LeMar, > > > >I only have the fuser and power supplys left in the LJ II. I stripped > > > >everything else off, I just wanted to be able to fuse the toner transfer > > > >artwork onto the copperclad instead of ironing it on. I just drive the > > > >SI-7300a stepper driver with a ATtiny2313 running a simple C > program. That's > > > >as far as I have gotten thus far. Next, I plan to build a temperature > > > >controller for the fuser, based on the AC power supply from the LJ II. I > > > >will use a microprocessor to sense the temperature and turn > the triac on and > > > >off to maintain a selected temperature in the fuser. > Hopefully, this will > > > >allow me to fuse the artwork onto the copper by passing it > through the LJ > > > >fuser. If there is interest, I will post my methods. > > > > > > > >I am interested in the direct printing, this is just an > experiment to see if > > > >I can make this concept work for the .062 boards with toner > transfer paper. > > > >If the fuser won't fuse the toner onto the copper, direct > print won't work > > > >with these printers. > > > >Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, > Files, and Photos: > > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, > and Photos: > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links > > >