Homebrew PCBs

With all the recent discussion about coating paper with RTV or 
buying silicone sheets, I decided to try some other commonly 
availible  (and cheap) coated papers.

While doing my grocery shopping, I found a roll of Reynolds 
Parchment Paper. It's commonly used in baking to prevent sticking. I 
figured for $2.75 for a 30 sq ft roll, it was worth trying.

I was pleasantly surprised. It went through my old laserjet IIP+ 
withput a problem. Ther was decent adhesion the the RPP by the 
toner. Much better than using label backings. And a few runs through 
my GLC laminator transferred the toner to a properly prepped board. 
I waited until the board had cooled and hestiantly peeled the the 
RPP. I was amazed it came off very easily. No water needed.

After etching, the board was a good or better than any 
photopaper/inkjet paper I had tried. Best of all no water needed to 
remove the paper!

This is definately the paper to use. It's inexpensive, easy to use 
and is works.

No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal 
company. :)

Definitely try the Reynolds Parchment Paper.


Mycrofft2152

"No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal 
company. :)"

LMAO!  :P

Can you explain the lamination process a little more for the
neuron-dysfunctional people?  :)  I'm just jumping in the TT thread so 'I
know nutting' - Sgt Schultz.  I'm looking for a way to stop using the
expensive photo-sensitive PCBs and was hoping this was the real deal.

Is that the type of laminator with the ID badge or certificate pouches?  You
use the laminator as a substitute for a clothes iron?

Do you have a pic of the box?  We don't have Reynold's 'parchment' paper
here in Quebec (darn French stickers), it's probably labelled differently or
translated poorly.

Robert
:)







-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : mai 25 2005 22:56
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


With all the recent discussion about coating paper with RTV or 
buying silicone sheets, I decided to try some other commonly 
availible  (and cheap) coated papers.

While doing my grocery shopping, I found a roll of Reynolds 
Parchment Paper. It's commonly used in baking to prevent sticking. I 
figured for $2.75 for a 30 sq ft roll, it was worth trying.

I was pleasantly surprised. It went through my old laserjet IIP+ 
withput a problem. Ther was decent adhesion the the RPP by the 
toner. Much better than using label backings. And a few runs through 
my GLC laminator transferred the toner to a properly prepped board. 
I waited until the board had cooled and hestiantly peeled the the 
RPP. I was amazed it came off very easily. No water needed.

After etching, the board was a good or better than any 
photopaper/inkjet paper I had tried. Best of all no water needed to 
remove the paper!

This is definately the paper to use. It's inexpensive, easy to use 
and is works.

No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal 
company. :)

Definitely try the Reynolds Parchment Paper.


Mycrofft2152









Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

http://www.reynoldskitchens.com/reynoldskitchens/kitchenconnection/products/
parchment_paper/index.asp

Never mind.

"Reynolds® Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated vegetable
parchment paper."

Darn, never seen this stuff here.  We got the waxy paper stuff, not
silicone.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Robert Hedan
Envoyé : mai 25 2005 23:39
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


"No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal 
company. :)"

LMAO!  :P

Can you explain the lamination process a little more for the
neuron-dysfunctional people?  :)  I'm just jumping in the TT thread so 'I
know nutting' - Sgt Schultz.  I'm looking for a way to stop using the
expensive photo-sensitive PCBs and was hoping this was the real deal.

Is that the type of laminator with the ID badge or certificate pouches?  You
use the laminator as a substitute for a clothes iron?

Do you have a pic of the box?  We don't have Reynold's 'parchment' paper
here in Quebec (darn French stickers), it's probably labelled differently or
translated poorly.

Robert
:)







-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152 Envoyé : mai 25 2005 22:56 À :
Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT!
Reynolds Parchment Paper


With all the recent discussion about coating paper with RTV or 
buying silicone sheets, I decided to try some other commonly 
availible  (and cheap) coated papers.

While doing my grocery shopping, I found a roll of Reynolds 
Parchment Paper. It's commonly used in baking to prevent sticking. I 
figured for $2.75 for a 30 sq ft roll, it was worth trying.

I was pleasantly surprised. It went through my old laserjet IIP+ 
withput a problem. Ther was decent adhesion the the RPP by the 
toner. Much better than using label backings. And a few runs through 
my GLC laminator transferred the toner to a properly prepped board. 
I waited until the board had cooled and hestiantly peeled the the 
RPP. I was amazed it came off very easily. No water needed.

After etching, the board was a good or better than any 
photopaper/inkjet paper I had tried. Best of all no water needed to 
remove the paper!

This is definately the paper to use. It's inexpensive, easy to use 
and is works.

No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal 
company. :)

Definitely try the Reynolds Parchment Paper.


Mycrofft2152









Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 






Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

>"Reynolds® Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated vegetable
parchment paper."
>
>Darn, never seen this stuff here.  We got the waxy paper stuff, not
silicone.

Any fellow Australian members know if this (or similar) is available
here?
I know we have various grease proof papers available through
supermarkets but 
I am thinking that this type will not be available there.

I know there is a little specialist Deli type place (Providore) in my
town 
that carries all sorts of weird things. I am going to check that out and
see what I 
can find. I know we also have a specialist kitchenware shop whom I might
be 
able to give a description/picture to in order to find out if it's
available.

Cheers,

Andrew S.
'Still surfin ' the net at 28k8'

I've searched Google for <GLC Laminators> and it seems to mean something
18-years-and-up in Polish if I interpret a lot of the descriptions right.
:D

Did you mean GBC Laminators like these:
http://www.heasterlawson.com/laminators.html

If those are it, is there one model you recommend over the others?  Or is
paper width the only important feature between these?

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : mai 25 2005 22:56
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


With all the recent discussion about coating paper with RTV or 
buying silicone sheets, I decided to try some other commonly 
availible  (and cheap) coated papers.

While doing my grocery shopping, I found a roll of Reynolds 
Parchment Paper. It's commonly used in baking to prevent sticking. I 
figured for $2.75 for a 30 sq ft roll, it was worth trying.

I was pleasantly surprised. It went through my old laserjet IIP+ 
withput a problem. Ther was decent adhesion the the RPP by the 
toner. Much better than using label backings. And a few runs through 
my GLC laminator transferred the toner to a properly prepped board. 
I waited until the board had cooled and hestiantly peeled the the 
RPP. I was amazed it came off very easily. No water needed.

After etching, the board was a good or better than any 
photopaper/inkjet paper I had tried. Best of all no water needed to 
remove the paper!

This is definately the paper to use. It's inexpensive, easy to use 
and is works.

No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal 
company. :)

Definitely try the Reynolds Parchment Paper.


Mycrofft2152









Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

I've only got an InkJet printer so I'm looking for an adequate laser
printer.  Is this model up to the task of decent trace quality with
1200x1200 dpi?

http://www.cost.com/micro411/hplaserjet2100.html

Can I use that for SMD laster, or am I limited to thru-hole with this
resolution?

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : mai 25 2005 22:56
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


With all the recent discussion about coating paper with RTV or 
buying silicone sheets, I decided to try some other commonly 
availible  (and cheap) coated papers.

While doing my grocery shopping, I found a roll of Reynolds 
Parchment Paper. It's commonly used in baking to prevent sticking. I 
figured for $2.75 for a 30 sq ft roll, it was worth trying.

I was pleasantly surprised. It went through my old laserjet IIP+ 
withput a problem. Ther was decent adhesion the the RPP by the 
toner. Much better than using label backings. And a few runs through 
my GLC laminator transferred the toner to a properly prepped board. 
I waited until the board had cooled and hestiantly peeled the the 
RPP. I was amazed it came off very easily. No water needed.

After etching, the board was a good or better than any 
photopaper/inkjet paper I had tried. Best of all no water needed to 
remove the paper!

This is definately the paper to use. It's inexpensive, easy to use 
and is works.

No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal 
company. :)

Definitely try the Reynolds Parchment Paper.


Mycrofft2152









Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Reynolds� Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated vegetable parchment paper. It is excellent for TT and making PCB's, cooking en papillote 
(a superior PCB material),  making candy (photo resist), Top Overlay or covering foods for the microwave. Homebrew PCB Engineers, cooks and bakers  have been using it for years. Now you can too! 

ok Back to work Boys !  lol


  http://www.reynoldskitchens.com/reynoldskitchens/kitchenconnection/products/parchment_paper/index.asp



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andrew wrote:
>>"Reynolds\ufffd Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated vegetable
> 
> parchment paper."
> 
>>Darn, never seen this stuff here.  We got the waxy paper stuff, not
> 
> silicone.
> 
> Any fellow Australian members know if this (or similar) is available
> here? I know we have various grease proof papers available through
> supermarkets but I am thinking that this type will not be available there.
> 
> I know there is a little specialist Deli type place (Providore) in my
> town that carries all sorts of weird things. I am going to check that out and
> see what I can find. I know we also have a specialist kitchenware shop whom I might
> be able to give a description/picture to in order to find out if it's
> available.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew S.
> 'Still surfin ' the net at 28k8'

Arts'n crafts shops have all kinds of weird paper, and a few interesting
chemicals for coatings. Sign-makers shops have various glossy papers too.

On Thu, 26 May 2005 07:42:04 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> I've only got an InkJet printer so I'm looking for an adequate laser
> printer.  Is this model up to the task of decent trace quality with
> 1200x1200 dpi?
> http://www.cost.com/micro411/hplaserjet2100.html
> Can I use that for SMD laster, or am I limited to thru-hole with this
> resolution?
> Robert
>
>


600dpi does all that is available now. 300dpi limits you a bit, 1200  
should be good.

ST

On Thu, 26 May 2005 05:46:00 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> "Reynolds\ufffd Parchment Paper ..... silicone-coated...

That says it all.

ST

The Reynolds Parchemnt Paper may also be called Butcher's paper or 
Baker's paper. Originallly these were wax coated paperrs, but in 
today's environment, silicones are generally used. Lower cost and 
more eco friendly.

I am using a GBC laminator. (not GLC, it was very late last night). 
I bought one of the 4" wide ones at Staples Office supply for under 
$50. My boards come from the free EAGLE CAD package which limits the 
size to 3" x 4". Perfect for my use.  I swapped the gears in it per 
the Pulsar instructions to slow it down a bit. Though with the RPP, 
I don't think I had to. Staples was discontinuing a 9" home version 
for $40 the last time I looked.

There are a lot of good sites with step by step instructions on 
Toner Transfer.The basic concept is the toner used in a laser 
printer is a meltable plastic. The image created with the toner is 
transferred to a paper sheet and then remelted or fused. This paper 
can then be used to re-transfer the image to another substrate by 
ironing. Crafters have used this for years to transfer photocopied 
design to fabric and wood. For pcb making, you need to transfer 100% 
of the toner, which acts as the resist during etching. It's also 
good for component legends on the top. Most papers require a water 
wash and scrub step to wash off the paper and leave the toner.After 
etching the toner is removed.There is a new(?) step being added. For 
those of you who were alive before inkjet printers, one way to get 
color, especially metallic, was to use a heat sealable foil, 
commonly called Laser Foil. It was a mylar tape with a metallized 
coating that would adhere only to the toner.Great for gold seals 
etc. For pcb's the Laser foil provides both color and an extra 
smooth and durable coating to the toner resist.

The correct combination of paper/ toner/ laseer printer is critical 
for success. There is info in the database on different combinations 
that have worked and not worked. Check it out.

Hope this helps,


Mycroft2152

I own the H200 and it works out pretty well for me. That model heats the 
rollers instead of heating the document before going through cold rollers. 
I use it at maximum heat.

At 12:33 AM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
>I've searched Google for <GLC Laminators> and it seems to mean something
>18-years-and-up in Polish if I interpret a lot of the descriptions right.
>:D
>
>Did you mean GBC Laminators like these:
>http://www.heasterlawson.com/laminators.html
>
>If those are it, is there one model you recommend over the others?  Or is
>paper width the only important feature between these?
>
>Robert
>:)
>
>
>
>-----Message d'origine-----
>De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
>la part de mycroft2152
>Envoyé : mai 25 2005 22:56
>À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper
>
>
>With all the recent discussion about coating paper with RTV or
>buying silicone sheets, I decided to try some other commonly
>availible  (and cheap) coated papers.
>
>While doing my grocery shopping, I found a roll of Reynolds
>Parchment Paper. It's commonly used in baking to prevent sticking. I
>figured for $2.75 for a 30 sq ft roll, it was worth trying.
>
>I was pleasantly surprised. It went through my old laserjet IIP+
>withput a problem. Ther was decent adhesion the the RPP by the
>toner. Much better than using label backings. And a few runs through
>my GLC laminator transferred the toner to a properly prepped board.
>I waited until the board had cooled and hestiantly peeled the the
>RPP. I was amazed it came off very easily. No water needed.
>
>After etching, the board was a good or better than any
>photopaper/inkjet paper I had tried. Best of all no water needed to
>remove the paper!
>
>This is definately the paper to use. It's inexpensive, easy to use
>and is works.
>
>No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal
>company. :)
>
>Definitely try the Reynolds Parchment Paper.
>
>
>Mycrofft2152
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Cecil Bayona
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com

'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you 
with experience.'

I use silver color Laser Foil to label the component side, it's really not 
silver color, but more an aluminum color but it works for it's intended 
purpose. I bought several rolls at Digi-Key, they were discontinuing it and 
it was $3.49 for a roll that is aproximatly 300 feet. I bought several in 
silver and several in green.

Has anyone used it to make a solder mask?

Where is the database that you mentioned? Is it at the Pulsar site?

At 07:42 AM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
>The Reynolds Parchemnt Paper may also be called Butcher's paper or
>Baker's paper. Originallly these were wax coated paperrs, but in
>today's environment, silicones are generally used. Lower cost and
>more eco friendly.
>
>I am using a GBC laminator. (not GLC, it was very late last night).
>I bought one of the 4" wide ones at Staples Office supply for under
>$50. My boards come from the free EAGLE CAD package which limits the
>size to 3" x 4". Perfect for my use.  I swapped the gears in it per
>the Pulsar instructions to slow it down a bit. Though with the RPP,
>I don't think I had to. Staples was discontinuing a 9" home version
>for $40 the last time I looked.
>
>There are a lot of good sites with step by step instructions on
>Toner Transfer.The basic concept is the toner used in a laser
>printer is a meltable plastic. The image created with the toner is
>transferred to a paper sheet and then remelted or fused. This paper
>can then be used to re-transfer the image to another substrate by
>ironing. Crafters have used this for years to transfer photocopied
>design to fabric and wood. For pcb making, you need to transfer 100%
>of the toner, which acts as the resist during etching. It's also
>good for component legends on the top. Most papers require a water
>wash and scrub step to wash off the paper and leave the toner.After
>etching the toner is removed.There is a new(?) step being added. For
>those of you who were alive before inkjet printers, one way to get
>color, especially metallic, was to use a heat sealable foil,
>commonly called Laser Foil. It was a mylar tape with a metallized
>coating that would adhere only to the toner.Great for gold seals
>etc. For pcb's the Laser foil provides both color and an extra
>smooth and durable coating to the toner resist.
>
>The correct combination of paper/ toner/ laseer printer is critical
>for success. There is info in the database on different combinations
>that have worked and not worked. Check it out.
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>
>Mycroft2152
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Cecil Bayona
KD5NWA
www.qrpradio.com

'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you 
with experience.'

The database with the paper/toner comparisons is here at this site. 
Check over on the left side of the page for a listing of all the 
databases.

The laser foil is non adhesive it requires the toner to work. I 
don't know how toner works for solder resist. It has some metal 
particals mixed in for electrostatic reasons. But using the laser 
foil would change the color from black.

Probably worth a try.

Myc


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@c...> wrote:
> I use silver color Laser Foil to label the component side, it's 
really not 
> silver color, but more an aluminum color but it works for it's 
intended 
> purpose. I bought several rolls at Digi-Key, they were 
discontinuing it and 
> it was $3.49 for a roll that is aproximatly 300 feet. I bought 
several in 
> silver and several in green.
> 
> Has anyone used it to make a solder mask?
> 
> Where is the database that you mentioned? Is it at the Pulsar site?
> 
> At 07:42 AM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
> >The Reynolds Parchemnt Paper may also be called Butcher's paper or
> >Baker's paper. Originallly these were wax coated paperrs, but in
> >today's environment, silicones are generally used. Lower cost and
> >more eco friendly.
> >
> >I am using a GBC laminator. (not GLC, it was very late last 
night).
> >I bought one of the 4" wide ones at Staples Office supply for 
under
> >$50. My boards come from the free EAGLE CAD package which limits 
the
> >size to 3" x 4". Perfect for my use.  I swapped the gears in it 
per
> >the Pulsar instructions to slow it down a bit. Though with the 
RPP,
> >I don't think I had to. Staples was discontinuing a 9" home 
version
> >for $40 the last time I looked.
> >
> >There are a lot of good sites with step by step instructions on
> >Toner Transfer.The basic concept is the toner used in a laser
> >printer is a meltable plastic. The image created with the toner is
> >transferred to a paper sheet and then remelted or fused. This 
paper
> >can then be used to re-transfer the image to another substrate by
> >ironing. Crafters have used this for years to transfer photocopied
> >design to fabric and wood. For pcb making, you need to transfer 
100%
> >of the toner, which acts as the resist during etching. It's also
> >good for component legends on the top. Most papers require a water
> >wash and scrub step to wash off the paper and leave the 
toner.After
> >etching the toner is removed.There is a new(?) step being added. 
For
> >those of you who were alive before inkjet printers, one way to get
> >color, especially metallic, was to use a heat sealable foil,
> >commonly called Laser Foil. It was a mylar tape with a metallized
> >coating that would adhere only to the toner.Great for gold seals
> >etc. For pcb's the Laser foil provides both color and an extra
> >smooth and durable coating to the toner resist.
> >
> >The correct combination of paper/ toner/ laseer printer is 
critical
> >for success. There is info in the database on different 
combinations
> >that have worked and not worked. Check it out.
> >
> >Hope this helps,
> >
> >
> >Mycroft2152
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and 
files:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Cecil Bayona
> KD5NWA
> www.qrpradio.com
> 
> 'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then 
beat you 
> with experience.'

The Closest thing I know of is Glad Bake:
www.glad.com.au/products.asp?id=2
But I have found it to thin to feed through my Laser printers

regards
James

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <swinn05@b...> wrote:
> 
> >"Reynolds® Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated 
vegetable

> parchment paper."
> >
> >Darn, never seen this stuff here.  We got the waxy paper stuff, not
> silicone.
> 
> Any fellow Australian members know if this (or similar) is available
> here?

James,

I attach a small piece of the RPP to a regular sheet of paper with a 
label. I started this way with the more expensive films to save 
money.

Myc 


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James RM" <tvi@o...> wrote:
> The Closest thing I know of is Glad Bake:
> www.glad.com.au/products.asp?id=2
> But I have found it to thin to feed through my Laser printers
> 
> regards
> James
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <swinn05@b...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > >"Reynolds® Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated 
> vegetable
> > parchment paper."
> > >
> > >Darn, never seen this stuff here.  We got the waxy paper stuff, 
not
> > silicone.
> > 
> > Any fellow Australian members know if this (or similar) is 
available
> > here?

Has anyone figured out how to align the 2 sides for single-pass transfer for
2-layer PCBs?

Silicone is non-stick, I'm not sure how to keep the 2 sheets aligned through
the laminator.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : mai 25 2005 22:56
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


With all the recent discussion about coating paper with RTV or 
buying silicone sheets, I decided to try some other commonly 
availible  (and cheap) coated papers.

While doing my grocery shopping, I found a roll of Reynolds 
Parchment Paper. It's commonly used in baking to prevent sticking. I 
figured for $2.75 for a 30 sq ft roll, it was worth trying.

I was pleasantly surprised. It went through my old laserjet IIP+ 
withput a problem. Ther was decent adhesion the the RPP by the 
toner. Much better than using label backings. And a few runs through 
my GLC laminator transferred the toner to a properly prepped board. 
I waited until the board had cooled and hestiantly peeled the the 
RPP. I was amazed it came off very easily. No water needed.

After etching, the board was a good or better than any 
photopaper/inkjet paper I had tried. Best of all no water needed to 
remove the paper!

This is definately the paper to use. It's inexpensive, easy to use 
and is works.

No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal 
company. :)

Definitely try the Reynolds Parchment Paper.


Mycrofft2152









Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:26:57 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Has anyone figured out how to align the 2 sides for single-pass transfer  
> for
> 2-layer PCBs?
> Silicone is non-stick, I'm not sure how to keep the 2 sheets aligned  
> through
> the laminator.
> Robert


luckily, if you coat the pages with high-temp silicone yourself it is  
everything but non-stick, you can't slide a page coated in that way  
against a smooth surface. (Kind of like the rubber mats for old people to  
put in the bathtub so they don't slip).


But, my method of choice uses a sheet of heavy paper (thin cardboard) that  
is folded in the center.

Your printouts must have a 3cm+ excess paper on one edge (same edge).

Align your printouts against a light source, no pcb inserted or anyting.  
hold together with right hand on the center of the printouts.
Now open the folded cardboard with left hand, and put the printouts in it  
with the excess paper in the fold. hold the things together, from the  
outside of the cardboard, over the excess paper. now open the printouts up  
and slide PCB in (take care to get the component legend on the non-copper  
side if you do one side copper and one side legend, don't ask...). now  
hold together over the PCB (from outide the cardboard) and feed into fuser  
with folded edge first.

I usually give it a second run without the cardboard, for the added  
thickness makes the heating take longer (I turn the thing over for the  
second run).

It works well.

What i wonder sometimes is if it would be easier to sand one edge of the  
board to a centered sharp edge and simply fold the paper over..

ST

Hey Stefan,

Lighten up a little bit and stop kicking a dead horse, you made your 
point. Not everyone wants to or has the room for the guts to an old 
laser printer attached to a chicken barbeque motor on their 
workbench.

True its a valid way to go, but a PITA to build. Some of us would 
rather just buy a laminator that works. To each his own.

As far a double sided printing, the folded paper works fine. 
Silicone anti slip is just extra work. If you must tie the silicone 
coating into the process then put a strip along the edge of the RPP 
to prevent movement!

Let's keep this a open discussion of the many ways to improve 
homebrew pcb's rather than forcing one method on us all.

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:26:57 +0200, Robert Hedan  
> <robert.hedan@v...> wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone figured out how to align the 2 sides for single-pass 
transfer  
> > for
> > 2-layer PCBs?
> > Silicone is non-stick, I'm not sure how to keep the 2 sheets 
aligned  
> > through
> > the laminator.
> > Robert
> 
> 
> luckily, if you coat the pages with high-temp silicone yourself it 
is  
> everything but non-stick, you can't slide a page coated in that 
way  
> against a smooth surface. (Kind of like the rubber mats for old 
people to  
> put in the bathtub so they don't slip).
> 
> 
> But, my method of choice uses a sheet of heavy paper (thin 
cardboard) that  
> is folded in the center.
> 
> Your printouts must have a 3cm+ excess paper on one edge (same 
edge).
> 
> Align your printouts against a light source, no pcb inserted or 
anyting.  
> hold together with right hand on the center of the printouts.
> Now open the folded cardboard with left hand, and put the 
printouts in it  
> with the excess paper in the fold. hold the things together, from 
the  
> outside of the cardboard, over the excess paper. now open the 
printouts up  
> and slide PCB in (take care to get the component legend on the non-
copper  
> side if you do one side copper and one side legend, don't ask...). 
now  
> hold together over the PCB (from outide the cardboard) and feed 
into fuser  
> with folded edge first.
> 
> I usually give it a second run without the cardboard, for the 
added  
> thickness makes the heating take longer (I turn the thing over for 
the  
> second run).
> 
> It works well.
> 
> What i wonder sometimes is if it would be easier to sand one edge 
of the  

> board to a centered sharp edge and simply fold the paper over..
> 
> ST

"What i wonder sometimes is if it would be easier to sand one edge of the  
board to a centered sharp edge and simply fold the paper over.."

ST



BINGO!  :)  Kind of, it gets the creative juices flowing.

No need to work alignment on the board, too complicated, work the alignment
while folding the  paper and slip in the board like you 1st suggested.

Or print the 2 patterns individually, align them up to light like you
mentionned, staple  around sides and trailing edge, squish the staples
making sure the paper remains aligned and then pass it through the
laminator?  You can always cut off the staples before a 2nd pass.

Or what about those tooth-wheels I've seen in sewing (don't ask either ok)?
I don't have one handy, but would they make semi-perforations that would
maintain alignment?  No metal object, simple and cheap application?  You
don't need a lot of strength, just enough to prevent lateral movement.  If
those are not quite right, I have a wheel-applicator to install screening on
my windows, maybe filing teeth into that would be better?

Another idea, align 2 pieces of paper, fold leading edge more than once to
hold alignment, feed that in like your idea of the cardboard leader.

Robert
:)
"So many ideas, and yet I have no idea really"





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I don't think Stefan pushed his product too hard (although I'm still
wondering if I should press charges for spamming   :D   ).

And I like reading when people write their thinking process.  Sometimes it's
just a little comment that sparks an idea.

The problem for me with printing on a single sheet and then folding is that
my software (QCAD) is not that flexible.  I can print one pattern, or a
mosaic of the same pattern, but I can't print one pattern and then another a
short distance after it.

That's why I'm looking for a way of aligning 2 individual pieces of paper.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : mai 26 2005 17:24
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


Hey Stefan,

Lighten up a little bit and stop kicking a dead horse, you made your 
point. Not everyone wants to or has the room for the guts to an old 
laser printer attached to a chicken barbeque motor on their 
workbench.

True its a valid way to go, but a PITA to build. Some of us would 
rather just buy a laminator that works. To each his own.

As far a double sided printing, the folded paper works fine. 
Silicone anti slip is just extra work. If you must tie the silicone 
coating into the process then put a strip along the edge of the RPP 
to prevent movement!

Let's keep this a open discussion of the many ways to improve 
homebrew pcb's rather than forcing one method on us all.

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:26:57 +0200, Robert Hedan
> <robert.hedan@v...> wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone figured out how to align the 2 sides for single-pass
transfer  
> > for
> > 2-layer PCBs?
> > Silicone is non-stick, I'm not sure how to keep the 2 sheets
aligned  
> > through
> > the laminator.
> > Robert
> 
> 
> luckily, if you coat the pages with high-temp silicone yourself it
is  
> everything but non-stick, you can't slide a page coated in that
way  
> against a smooth surface. (Kind of like the rubber mats for old
people to  
> put in the bathtub so they don't slip).
> 
> 
> But, my method of choice uses a sheet of heavy paper (thin
cardboard) that  
> is folded in the center.
> 
> Your printouts must have a 3cm+ excess paper on one edge (same
edge).
> 
> Align your printouts against a light source, no pcb inserted or
anyting.  
> hold together with right hand on the center of the printouts. Now open 
> the folded cardboard with left hand, and put the
printouts in it  
> with the excess paper in the fold. hold the things together, from
the  
> outside of the cardboard, over the excess paper. now open the
printouts up  
> and slide PCB in (take care to get the component legend on the non-
copper  
> side if you do one side copper and one side legend, don't ask...).
now  
> hold together over the PCB (from outide the cardboard) and feed
into fuser  
> with folded edge first.
> 
> I usually give it a second run without the cardboard, for the
added  
> thickness makes the heating take longer (I turn the thing over for
the  
> second run).
> 
> It works well.
> 
> What i wonder sometimes is if it would be easier to sand one edge
of the  
> board to a centered sharp edge and simply fold the paper over..
> 
> ST





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Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:26:57 +0200, Robert Hedan  
> <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
> 
>> luckily, if you coat the pages with high-temp silicone yourself it is  
> everything but non-stick, you can't slide a page coated in that way  
> against a smooth surface. (Kind of like the rubber mats for old people to  
> put in the bathtub so they don't slip).
> 
> 


   Just got some of the parchment to try, feels great.  Inside of roll is 
slightly more textured than the outside, inside being what's normally going to 
get cooked on the way the roll dispenses.  $2.24 with the Kroger card discount, 
the unopened $14 high temp silicone is going back if this works well at all. 
Still working on direct printing this weekend, but have to have something else 
as a good backup anyway.  I will be doing a couple boards tonight, so will of 
course report on how it goes in a while.

   Since I do a lot of shipping, if it works well I'll be willing to send it 
out.  If it's great I'll just tack $1 on to make it worth going to the store, 
and send it at that $1 over cost.  Should be less than $10 the slow way to 
almost anywhere including the cost, it's only $2.24 on sale or $2.99 when not.

   Apparently though it is 'the stuff' for high class non-stick baking though, 
you should be able to find it or something similar just about anywhere at low cost.



   And for alignment, if they can glue teflon down, there's a way to get 2 
sheets together.  May take a bit of trying but no doubt it'll work somehow.  You 
can always do purely mechanical.  Align, punch X shaped cuts, and fold through. 
  Enough of those will hold just about anything in alignment good enough for a pass.

   Need to finish my relayout of my current board to give it a try, but I may 
just have to find something else to make a quickie spare board of to see it work.

Alan

On Thu, 26 May 2005 23:24:04 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

> Hey Stefan,
> Lighten up a little bit and stop kicking a dead horse, you made your
> point. Not everyone wants to or has the room for the guts to an old
> laser printer attached to a chicken barbeque motor on their
> workbench.
> True its a valid way to go, but a PITA to build. Some of us would
> rather just buy a laminator that works. To each his own.
> As far a double sided printing, the folded paper works fine.
> Silicone anti slip is just extra work. If you must tie the silicone
> coating into the process then put a strip along the edge of the RPP
> to prevent movement!
> Let's keep this a open discussion of the many ways to improve
> homebrew pcb's rather than forcing one method on us all.
> Myc


I don't know if you noticed that this is a mailing list EVERYONE can  
describe HIS METHOD.
Sorry that i dared to describe mine, i thought someone might be interested.

My wrong, i won't do it again. Of course my way is false and yours is the  
only one valid, so i  will shut up.

ST

On Thu, 26 May 2005 23:36:18 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

>
> BINGO!    Kind of, it gets the creative juices flowing.
> No need to work alignment on the board, too complicated, work the  
> alignment
> while folding the  paper and slip in the board like you 1st suggested.
> Or print the 2 patterns individually, align them up to light like you
> mentionned, staple  around sides and trailing edge, squish the staples
> making sure the paper remains aligned and then pass it through the
> laminator?  You can always cut off the staples before a 2nd pass.
> Or what about those tooth-wheels I've seen in sewing (don't ask either  
> ok)?
> I don't have one handy, but would they make semi-perforations that would
> maintain alignment?  No metal object, simple and cheap application?  You
> don't need a lot of strength, just enough to prevent lateral movement.   
> If
> those are not quite right, I have a wheel-applicator to install  
> screening on
> my windows, maybe filing teeth into that would be better?
> Another idea, align 2 pieces of paper, fold leading edge more than once  
> to
> hold alignment, feed that in like your idea of the cardboard leader.
> Robert
>
> "So many ideas, and yet I have no idea really"


I have tried most of those in the past (with inkjet paper), and it just  
didn't work out.
Without the cardboard "carrier" they would always slip and loose alignment.
Maybe it can be done with silicone paper (which is sticky), but the folded  
cardboard works for me...

ST

On Thu, 26 May 2005 23:43:03 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

>
> The problem for me with printing on a single sheet and then folding is  
> that
> my software (QCAD) is not that flexible.  I can print one pattern, or a
> mosaic of the same pattern, but I can't print one pattern and then  
> another a
> short distance after it.
> That's why I'm looking for a way of aligning 2 individual pieces of  
> paper.
> Robert


My software is the same (not qcad, but lack of function).
The stupid thing has "panelizing" feature, meaning it can multiply a PCB  
so you can make several on one board, but it can't like print top and  
bottom side by side.

Solution: export to bitmap at printer resolution and fit together with a  
image editing software.

It is not necessarily easier to have it on one sheet, at all, i have  
found, i usually cut them apart anyway for alignment

ST

On Fri, 27 May 2005 00:10:21 +0200, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

>
>    Just got some of the parchment to try, feels great.  Inside of roll is
> slightly more textured than the outside, inside being what's normally  
> going to
> get cooked on the way the roll dispenses.  $2.24 with the Kroger card  
> discount,
> the unopened $14 high temp silicone is going back if this works well at  
> all.
> Still working on direct printing this weekend, but have to have  
> something else
> as a good backup anyway.  I will be doing a couple boards tonight, so  
> will of
> course report on how it goes in a while.
>   Since I do a lot of shipping, if it works well I'll be willing to send  
> it
> out.  If it's great I'll just tack $1 on to make it worth going to the  
> store,
> and send it at that $1 over cost.  Should be less than $10 the slow way  
> to
> almost anywhere including the cost, it's only $2.24 on sale or $2.99  
> when not.
>   Apparently though it is 'the stuff' for high class non-stick baking  
> though,
> you should be able to find it or something similar just about anywhere  
> at low cost.


I wonder if it is slick on the business side? Do 2 pieces slide against  
each other?
tried all kitchen papers i had back then and none would exit the printer  
with the pattern intact, the surface was just too non-stick.
So that's why i'm a bit reluctant to believe it all...
I haven't tried with the new printer, but i wouldn't expect difference  
(will do).
Not sure if any i tried was silicone coat tho, must go and check, and i'll  
look closely next time in a shop.

If it really works great, every time, all the time, and i can't find any  
your offer to send it is great...
(tho i'm not sure it would be cheaper than silicone, but it'd be less  
work..)

ST

time to learn about gerber format.

I create gerbers for the top and bottom layers, appropriately
mirrored.  Then, using Pentalogix Viewmate (free download), open the
top gerber and move it (via displacement method - dx only), then
import the bottom gerber.  Print it and you've got what you want.

However, I've found that folding is harder than just aligning the two
copies and using double sided tape to stick them together.  Slide the
PCB blank in, align it.  Trim the paper to about 1" on each side and
slide the assembly into the modified GBC H200 (for about 5000 passes
to get the temperature up to the fusing point).

I don't bother making single sided boards anymore. Its so easy and the
bottom makes a great ground plane for the simpler boards.

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2005 23:43:03 +0200, Robert Hedan  
> <robert.hedan@v...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > The problem for me with printing on a single sheet and then
folding is  
> > that
> > my software (QCAD) is not that flexible.  I can print one pattern,
or a
> > mosaic of the same pattern, but I can't print one pattern and then  
> > another a
> > short distance after it.
> > That's why I'm looking for a way of aligning 2 individual pieces of  
> > paper.
> > Robert
> 
> 
> My software is the same (not qcad, but lack of function).
> The stupid thing has "panelizing" feature, meaning it can multiply a
PCB  
> so you can make several on one board, but it can't like print top and  
> bottom side by side.
> 
> Solution: export to bitmap at printer resolution and fit together
with a  

> image editing software.
> 
> It is not necessarily easier to have it on one sheet, at all, i have  
> found, i usually cut them apart anyway for alignment
> 
> ST

First test results:


Konica/Minolta PagePro 1350W laser printer
GBC laminator H300
Chef's Select parchement paper


Printing to ordinary paper:
- no missing pixels.
- black is ok for documents.

Printing to parchment paper:
- a few missing pixels, bad for thin traces.
- black is not as dense as on regular paper.

Laminating:
- 1st pass 50% pattern adhesion.
- 2nd pass 40% adhesion.
- missing more than just a few pixels, trace quality unacceptable.


I am getting a HP LaserJet 2100 tomorrow, a HP LaserJet 4V 11"x17" in a few
days and maybe a HP LaserJet 4000.  Will post results asap.

Will also search for other brands of parchment paper.  It's possible that
the quality varies between manufacturers.

Robert
:)





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Robert Hedan wrote:

> First test results:
> 
> 
> Printing to parchment paper:
> - a few missing pixels, bad for thin traces.
> - black is not as dense as on regular paper.
> 
> Laminating:
> - 1st pass 50% pattern adhesion.
> - 2nd pass 40% adhesion.
> - missing more than just a few pixels, trace quality unacceptable.
> 


   Similar here with 6L and ironing.  I did rush everything and little prep just 
to get an idea of how it'd work.  Note that where it did get things to stick 
well, the transfer was very good so does have promise.  Truly non-stick, it's 
easy for the page to come up and then move with a small piece.

   I think it's pretty clear simply getting enough heat to the toner is the 
problem.  Silicone is a good insulator, and where mine transferred well was a 
pattern under the heating element of the iron.

   Heating the board to X temperature and then doing a flat press may work 
better, putting the heat there and straight on the toner.  Or just preheating 
the board enough so the laminator doesn't have so much work to do etc.

Alan

Quoting Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>:

> Konica/Minolta PagePro 1350W laser printer
> Chef's Select parchement paper

> Printing to ordinary paper:
> - no missing pixels.
> - black is ok for documents.
 
> Printing to parchment paper:
> - a few missing pixels, bad for thin traces.
> - black is not as dense as on regular paper.

I have the Konika/Minolta 2300DL color printer.  I found with anything but
standard paper I must adjust the paper type setting to get full adhesion.
Printing on label stock with regular paper settings would cause entire
areas of toner to come off between drum and fuser, where they would get
restuck somewhere else and make a mess.
Telling it I am giving it labels makes all the difference.  I suspect the
same would help your parchment paper.
-Dan Barlow

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/

Forgot to mention one important thing, this was on the silkscreen side of
the board, not the copper side.  I wanted to see if the laminator was able
to at least do that.  I have to redo the test now with a piece of 1-sided
copper-clad.

It's possible that the bare surface might require some prepping, like 600
grit paper or another light abrasive.  The surface is REALLY glossy and a
helping hand might be all it needed.

I now have 2 more brands of paper:
- Reynold's, as originally tested.
- Multi-Bake, by PERKINS Cascade Group.

Getting a HP 2100 in a few hours, so I'll complete my tests then.

Robert
:)



Robert Hedan wrote:

> First test results:
> 
> 
> Printing to parchment paper:
> - a few missing pixels, bad for thin traces.
> - black is not as dense as on regular paper.
> 
> Laminating:
> - 1st pass 50% pattern adhesion.
> - 2nd pass 40% adhesion.
> - missing more than just a few pixels, trace quality unacceptable.
> 


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I didn't have a 'smearing' problem, it was missing pixels.  I checked the
results again, my eyes were killing me when I was testing.  :)  And I'm
missing more than just several pixels on the parchment paper, I'm missing
quite a lot, but the adhesion to the paper itself is very good.

I tried various media settings, but all with same results; plain paper,
transparency, envelope, postcard and thick paper.  I paid $99CAD on
liquidation at Future Shop so I didn't really expect high quality results.
This laser will turn into my ordinary work printer 'cause my Canon MP730 is
guzzling ink like my '81 Fleetwood.

Robert
:)

--------------------------

I have the Konika/Minolta 2300DL color printer.  I found with anything but
standard paper I must adjust the paper type setting to get full adhesion.
Printing on label stock with regular paper settings would cause entire areas
of toner to come off between drum and fuser, where they would get restuck
somewhere else and make a mess. Telling it I am giving it labels makes all
the difference.  I suspect the same would help your parchment paper. 

-Dan Barlow

-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/



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Robert Hedan wrote:
> Forgot to mention one important thing, this was on the silkscreen side of
> the board, not the copper side.  I wanted to see if the laminator was able
> to at least do that.  I have to redo the test now with a piece of 1-sided
> copper-clad.
> 
> It's possible that the bare surface might require some prepping, like 600
> grit paper or another light abrasive.  The surface is REALLY glossy and a
> helping hand might be all it needed.
> 
> I now have 2 more brands of paper:
> - Reynold's, as originally tested.
> - Multi-Bake, by PERKINS Cascade Group.
> 
> Getting a HP 2100 in a few hours, so I'll complete my tests then.
> 
> Robert
> :)
> 


   While I'm still going to get a cheap laminator, and like the Reynolds on 
basic testing, all the little extras and gotchas make me really want direct 
printing.


   After disassembly and a lot more looking, the initial feed, drum/transfer, 
and pressure rollers may all be in line with the cartridge installed despite how 
the service manual diagram looks, if not it's close and shouldn't take much for 
a mod.  Bet the .025" blanks I have coming could handle any necessary bend.  The 
exit roller isn't in plane, but you could really just let the board drop after 
the fuser, and just hack out the exit area.  Only other thing is the fuser is 
tilted slightly over the pressure roller, expecting the paper edge to drop 
slightly and then get rolled back up by the pressure roller as it enters.  If 
the board can feed reasonably straight from entry, drum, to pressure then it'll 
be easy enough to adjust the fuser angle.

   If nothing else works, I will totally hack out a fuser section.  Since it 
prints to metal, the input and drum sections should print, and then feed it 
straight to a laminator's rollers.  Would rather use the built in fuser, but it 
is not roller based instead having a stationary strip and a 'rolling' teflon 
sleeve.  May cause smearing if that sleeve won't roll properly over the thick 
stock since it'll keep it away from the pressure roller at the edges.  A true 
heated roller would work there if it won't.

   Will take some major cutting to cut the paper entry section to let a board 
come in straight though, it's got near vertical feed and probably goes through 
60 deg bend to the printing plane.  Just plastic so not impossible just will 
take some sawing.  Hmm, actually though a single saw blade pass at the right 
place, depth, and angle might do it for a board entry slot, so maybe just a good 
table saw with fine blade would be enough.

Alan

What about drawing the line you want cut, placing a steel straight-edge
along it and running an old soldering iron?

You can make multiple passes and use various tips to get the look you want.

Robert
:)



   Will take some major cutting to cut the paper entry section to let a
board 
come in straight though, it's got near vertical feed and probably goes
through 
60 deg bend to the printing plane.  Just plastic so not impossible just will

take some sawing.  Hmm, actually though a single saw blade pass at the right

place, depth, and angle might do it for a board entry slot, so maybe just a
good 
table saw with fine blade would be enough.

Alan



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--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152@y...>
wrote:
> The Reynolds Parchemnt Paper may also be called Butcher's paper or 
> Baker's paper. Originallly these were wax coated paperrs, but in 
> today's environment, silicones are generally used. Lower cost and 
> more eco friendly.

Yes, baker's sheets or baker's paper. Look for the word "silicone".

Not butcher paper, that is usually the same as freezer paper, which is
a plastic coated paper. And the plastic may melt in your fuser.

Steve Greenfield

Huh? He didn't even mention using a hacked laser printer fuser in that
message.

And I don't see how it would be wrong if he had mentioned it. It ain't
like he's selling them, someone asks where to get a laminator and he
suggests what he's done as a possibility.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152@y...>
wrote:
> Hey Stefan,
> 
> Lighten up a little bit and stop kicking a dead horse, you made your 
> point. Not everyone wants to or has the room for the guts to an old 
> laser printer attached to a chicken barbeque motor on their 
> workbench.
...snip...
> Let's keep this a open discussion of the many ways to improve 
> homebrew pcb's rather than forcing one method on us all.
> 
> Myc
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
...

> > 
> > luckily, if you coat the pages with high-temp silicone yourself it 
> is  
> > everything but non-stick, you can't slide a page coated in that 
> way  
> > against a smooth surface. (Kind of like the rubber mats for old 
> people to  
> > put in the bathtub so they don't slip).
> > 
> > 
> > But, my method of choice uses a sheet of heavy paper (thin 
> cardboard) that  
> > is folded in the center.
> > 
> > Your printouts must have a 3cm+ excess paper on one edge (same 
> edge).
> > 
> > Align your printouts against a light source, no pcb inserted or 
> anyting.  
> > hold together with right hand on the center of the printouts.
> > Now open the folded cardboard with left hand, and put the 
> printouts in it  
> > with the excess paper in the fold. hold the things together, from 
> the  
> > outside of the cardboard, over the excess paper. now open the 
> printouts up  
> > and slide PCB in (take care to get the component legend on the non-
> copper  
> > side if you do one side copper and one side legend, don't ask...). 
> now  
> > hold together over the PCB (from outide the cardboard) and feed 
> into fuser  
> > with folded edge first.
> > 
> > I usually give it a second run without the cardboard, for the 
> added  
> > thickness makes the heating take longer (I turn the thing over for 
> the  
> > second run).
> > 
> > It works well.
> > 
> > What i wonder sometimes is if it would be easier to sand one edge 
> of the  
> > board to a centered sharp edge and simply fold the paper over..
> > 
> > ST

More data, got the HP 2100 today.  I thought a glimpse at 10x magnification
would be interesting.  I can go much further if you wish, just ask, but we
get a fair idea of quality differences already at this level.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG

http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
-%20Chef%20Select.JPG

I lack a decent USB cam capture software.  I have no zoom, the picture on
the display is MUCH smaller than what I see manually in the microscope.

I have to try the other papers asap.

Robert
:)




Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Oh poo, the links are screwed up.  You have to copy and reconstitute them
elsewhere, and then paste into the Internet Explorer bar.

The 2 files are in the Toner Transfer folder of the File Section on the
Yahoo group.

Trying something different just for fun:

http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
-%20Chef%20Select.JPG

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG

Robert
:)



More data, got the HP 2100 today.  I thought a glimpse at 10x magnification
would be interesting.  I can go much further if you wish, just ask, but we
get a fair idea of quality differences already at this level.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG

http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
-%20Chef%20Select.JPG

I lack a decent USB cam capture software.  I have no zoom, the picture on
the display is MUCH smaller than what I see manually in the microscope.

I have to try the other papers asap.

Robert
:)







Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

On Sat, 28 May 2005 09:30:44 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> More data, got the HP 2100 today.  I thought a glimpse at 10x  
> magnification
> would be interesting.  I can go much further if you wish, just ask, but  
> we
> get a fair idea of quality differences already at this level.
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
> ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
> 0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
> http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
> 4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
> -%20Chef%20Select.JPG
> I lack a decent USB cam capture software.  I have no zoom, the picture on
> the display is MUCH smaller than what I see manually in the microscope.
> I have to try the other papers asap.
> Robert
>


When you have a decent print, try transferring, as soon as you have a  
decent transfer, etch.
Do not spend too long trying to perfect one step, for you might change  
things that are adverse to later steps.
You can always make small changes and perfections later, but first the  
general idea must work.

ST

Yeah, but if the transfer looks like crap, the transfer isn't going to
magically fill in gaps in the pattern.

Right now all I'm doing is printing and examining up close using differnet
lasers and papers.  Once I get the best combo, then I'll transfer and go on
from there.

Robert
:)



When you have a decent print, try transferring, as soon as you have a  
decent transfer, etch.
Do not spend too long trying to perfect one step, for you might change  
things that are adverse to later steps.
You can always make small changes and perfections later, but first the  
general idea must work.

ST



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

On Sat, 28 May 2005 13:53:45 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Yeah, but if the transfer looks like crap, the transfer isn't going to
> magically fill in gaps in the pattern.
> Right now all I'm doing is printing and examining up close using  
> differnet
> lasers and papers.  Once I get the best combo, then I'll transfer and go  
> on
> from there.
> Robert


sure, what i wanted to say is it might not be worth the effort perfecting  
one step if you run into trouble with the later steps.
For example, if the paper would for some reason not transfer well, there  
would be no point in getting it to print well, etc..


ST

Robert Hedan wrote:
> Yeah, but if the transfer looks like crap, the transfer isn't going to
> magically fill in gaps in the pattern.
> 

   Which is still relatively meaningless if that happens to be your worst 
transferring toner..

Robert,

When your links are this long it is really helpful to push them through
tinyurl.com and then post the result from that to the list.

Ed

> Oh poo, the links are screwed up.  You have to copy and reconstitute
them
> elsewhere, and then paste into the Internet Explorer bar.
>
> The 2 files are in the Toner Transfer folder of the File Section on the
Yahoo group.
>
> Trying something different just for fun:
>
> http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
>
> More data, got the HP 2100 today.  I thought a glimpse at 10x
> magnification
> would be interesting.  I can go much further if you wish, just ask, but
we
> get a fair idea of quality differences already at this level.
>
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
> http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
> I lack a decent USB cam capture software.  I have no zoom, the picture
on
> the display is MUCH smaller than what I see manually in the microscope.
>
> I have to try the other papers asap.
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

If you use tinyurl, also post the long version, nobody knows how long
tinyurl will last etc.
(also, many people like to know where they are going).

What i found helps a lot is using <> to enclose URLs, then they are not
broken.

Also, i use opera broser for mail, and i can simply highlight a URL (over  
several
lines), right-click and select go to url, and it will be ok so if someone
is bothered by cut-up urls get opera (www.opera.com, free).

Don't worry about cut URLs too much, if somebody really wants to see it he
will be able to no matter what.

the urls don't work any more, by the way.

ST

On Sat, 28 May 2005 16:56:12 +0200, Ed Okerson <ed@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> When your links are this long it is really helpful to push them through
> tinyurl.com and then post the result from that to the list.
> Ed

Did anyone get the links to work? Even after pasting it together it tells 
me the document is missing.

Can someone that go it to work re-post it?

If you enter the following in the reply <  > then you paste the link from 
your browser in the middle , the link will stay in one piece for most email 
programs. ie;

< 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6770926431&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1  
 >

At 02:36 AM 5/28/2005, you wrote:
>Oh poo, the links are screwed up.  You have to copy and reconstitute them
>elsewhere, and then paste into the Internet Explorer bar.
>
>The 2 files are in the Toner Transfer folder of the File Section on the
>Yahoo group.
>
>Trying something different just for fun:
>
>http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
>4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
>-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
>ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
>0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
>Robert
>:)
>
>
>
>More data, got the HP 2100 today.  I thought a glimpse at 10x magnification
>would be interesting.  I can go much further if you wish, just ask, but we
>get a fair idea of quality differences already at this level.
>
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
>ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
>0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
>http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
>4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
>-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
>I lack a decent USB cam capture software.  I have no zoom, the picture on
>the display is MUCH smaller than what I see manually in the microscope.
>
>I have to try the other papers asap.
>
>Robert
>:)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 5/27/2005

Cecil Bayona
KD5NWA

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:21:21 +0200, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@...> wrote:

> Did anyone get the links to work? Even after pasting it together it tells
> me the document is missing.
> Can someone that go it to work re-post it?
> If you enter the following in the reply <  > then you paste the link from
> your browser in the middle , the link will stay in one piece for most  
> email
> programs. ie;
> <
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6770926431&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
>  >


initially, they did work, but today i got a file not found.


ST

D'uh, that would be me.  I deleted the files and re-uploaded them, and
forgetting the Yahoo assigned names would change.

They are back in the Files Section under Toner Transfer.

Robert
:)




initially, they did work, but today i got a file not found.


ST



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@v...>
wrote:
> Oh poo, the links are screwed up.  You have to copy and reconstitute
them
> elsewhere, and then paste into the Internet Explorer bar.
> 
> The 2 files are in the Toner Transfer folder of the File Section on the
> Yahoo group.


First a peeve of mine: spaces in file names. Leave spaces out. If you
really feel the need, use an underscore. When used in filenames on the
web, a space turns into %20 which lengthens it even more. I favor just
using a capital(sp?) letter for the first letter of each word and not
using underscores, makes the file names shorter.

To get the file link sent to the list, easiest is to use the checkbox
"send notice to the list".

As listowner I get notifications of uploads with nice short URLs, the
same that would get sent to the list if you use that checkbox. Spaces
can still make it a bit unmanageable:

Please note that I've taken the spaces out of the filename so this
link won't work now:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG>

Putting <> on either side helps keep it together, or at least even
though it breaks it will work from the group site.

BTW, I can tell you are scanning at way past your scanners optical
resolution, my guess is about 3 or 4 times the optical resolution. It
is a waste of time and filespace to scan at anything above the optical
resolution, above that your scanner software is just resampling.

The other way is to just provide a link to the folder. Yahoogroups
-will- give you a simple URL to just the folder.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Toner_Transfer/>

These links will work with the filenames as I've taken the spaces out.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Toner_Transfer/HP2100-ChefSelect.JPG>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Toner_Transfer/Konica1350W-ChefSelect.JPG>

To create those links I just used the URL to that file folder, then
put the image name on the end.

Steve Greenfield

"BTW, I can tell you are scanning at way past your scanners optical
resolution, my guess is about 3 or 4 times the optical resolution. It is a
waste of time and filespace to scan at anything above the optical
resolution, above that your scanner software is just resampling."

I am?  I'm using a microscope with an optical camera.  The microscope is on
the lowest setting, It can go up to something like 1,600 or so.  there's no
resampling there, it's all optical, no digital.

Yup, roger on the shorter file names and brackets, I hate it when they screw
up.

Robert
:)



--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> 

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@v...>
wrote:
> "BTW, I can tell you are scanning at way past your scanners optical
> resolution, my guess is about 3 or 4 times the optical resolution.
It is a
> waste of time and filespace to scan at anything above the optical
> resolution, above that your scanner software is just resampling."
> 
> I am?  I'm using a microscope with an optical camera.  The
microscope is on
> the lowest setting, It can go up to something like 1,600 or so. 
there's no
> resampling there, it's all optical, no digital.

It looks pixellated. That's what I'm going on. What do you mean by
"optical camera"? Digital camera? What is it's native resolution?

> Yup, roger on the shorter file names and brackets, I hate it when
they screw
> up.

It's a pain. I've just been doing it a long time so I know some of the
ins and outs of Yahoogroups.

Steve Greenfield

Nope, no pixellation, just magnification under a microscope instead of
software zooming.  Optical means using lenses like in older cameras (think
of a telescope), digital is image processing like on current electronic
cameras (this process fills in blanks).

The image may seem a little off 'cause I just plopped the paper on the
platform.  You can see the right side is slightly out of focus 'cause it is
not at the same distance as the left (slight wave to the paper).   I could
have sandwiched it between glass plates, but I'm lazy.

I have a camera mounted on a 3rd eyepiece on the top of the microscope and
it films the view that I see through the 2 front-mounted eyepieces.  I take
snap shots of the views I want directly from the PC.  The camera is probably
only 600dpi, but it does not do any modification to the image.

I can even show you what a flea had for supper with this thing.  Search for
microscopes on EBay, 3 eyepieces - 10x-1600x, good deals for cheap people
like me.

Robert
:D



It looks pixellated. That's what I'm going on. What do you mean by "optical
camera"? Digital camera? What is it's native resolution?

Steve Greenfield





Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

And now for the really stupid question:

Do you print on the inner surface of the roll?

I tried that and I'm getting decent printing, but the transfer is a total
zero.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : mai 25 2005 22:56
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


With all the recent discussion about coating paper with RTV or 
buying silicone sheets, I decided to try some other commonly 
availible  (and cheap) coated papers.

While doing my grocery shopping, I found a roll of Reynolds 
Parchment Paper. It's commonly used in baking to prevent sticking. I 
figured for $2.75 for a 30 sq ft roll, it was worth trying.

I was pleasantly surprised. It went through my old laserjet IIP+ 
withput a problem. Ther was decent adhesion the the RPP by the 
toner. Much better than using label backings. And a few runs through 
my GLC laminator transferred the toner to a properly prepped board. 
I waited until the board had cooled and hestiantly peeled the the 
RPP. I was amazed it came off very easily. No water needed.

After etching, the board was a good or better than any 
photopaper/inkjet paper I had tried. Best of all no water needed to 
remove the paper!

This is definately the paper to use. It's inexpensive, easy to use 
and is works.

No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal 
company. :)

Definitely try the Reynolds Parchment Paper.


Mycrofft2152









Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

On Sun, 29 May 2005 07:52:38 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> And now for the really stupid question:
> Do you print on the inner surface of the roll?
> I tried that and I'm getting decent printing, but the transfer is a total
> zero.
> Robert
>
>


Robert, you are seeing much the same thing i saw back then when trying  
baking paper.
The coating is just too slippery to hold the toner. The back allows  
printing because it is not coated.

It seems, baking paper works only with certain printers and or for certain  
people.

If i were you, i'd try silicone coating with high-temp silicone. The  
difference is the surface is kind of sticky.


ST

Well, I got excellent results printing onto PlayBoy magazines.  The lines
were extremely crisp.  The problem occurred during passing through the
laminator, the toner would barely stick if at all.  The silicone papers did
give partial results, but nothing to jump up and down about.

I've tried the $30 el-cheapo WalMart laminator, save your money.  It doesn't
even make a dent, doesn't seem hot enough.  The GBC 300 gave me some
results, but showed signs of serious stress.  The PCB would stick and had to
be helped along, with groaning and cracking noises; not reassuring.

One tutorial on the group mentionned passing the PCB 8 times through the
laminator, that's not really acceptable for me.  I'd like to do some minor
volume and would like to cut that down.  I am wondering if preheating the
prepped PCBs in the small toaster ovens would shorten the process somewhat.
Anyone try that yet?

I'm seriously considering finding a scrap copier and using the hot drum in
there for laminating.  Ideally, a laser printer that I could open and try
the straight through direct printing would be ideal, but I scavenged my
LaserJet II a few months ago for the motors.  WAAAAAH!!!!  I killed the
roller, and I didn't take notes what went where, and broke some critical
flex cables by accident.  d'uh...

I've read through the files on the group and considering options at this
point.  I'll try printing on the outer side of the silicone paper and see
what that gives.

Can you tell me more about this high temp silicone you talk about?  How do
we use that?

I'm not going to be fabricating PCBs on a large scale, but I do want to be
able to handle something in the order of under 100 sheets of 8 1/2" x 11"
single-sided.  I'm seriously starting to consider investing in a Saber or
similar machine:
http://www.online-inc.com/Product%20Pages/Sabre%20CloseUp.htm


Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoyé : mai 29 2005 02:23
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


Robert, you are seeing much the same thing i saw back then when trying  
baking paper.
The coating is just too slippery to hold the toner. The back allows  
printing because it is not coated.

It seems, baking paper works only with certain printers and or for certain  
people.

If i were you, i'd try silicone coating with high-temp silicone. The  
difference is the surface is kind of sticky.


ST



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

I think the laminators can be converted for thicker boards and slower  
speed, but i don't think they do one-pass easily.
Try to get a fuser, IMO it is the most sturdy and easy to convert  
solution, and it easily makes one-pass possible.
Using it inside a printer is not useful IMO, it moves too fast for the  
thick PCBs. Take the fuser unit out, connect a simple temperature  
controller, and a geared motor. Usually the fuser assembly comes out as a  
neat unit.

I would not suggest PCB milling. it is slow, dusty, noisy, bad resolution,  
expensive.

The silicone is normal high temperature silicone chaulk, around 7 to 10eur  
for 300ml (many, many pages...).
Also get a steel squeegee (20cm wide so it covers almost the entire page  
width). Then you coat normal copier paper with that.
You can also use inkjet paper and remove the paper by rubbing under water,  
after fusing to the PCB, then you needn't coat anything but it is more  
work to get the paper off.

ST



On Sun, 29 May 2005 09:41:13 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Well, I got excellent results printing onto PlayBoy magazines.  The lines
> were extremely crisp.  The problem occurred during passing through the
> laminator, the toner would barely stick if at all.  The silicone papers  
> did
> give partial results, but nothing to jump up and down about.
>
> I've tried the $30 el-cheapo WalMart laminator, save your money.  It  
> doesn't
> even make a dent, doesn't seem hot enough.  The GBC 300 gave me some
> results, but showed signs of serious stress.  The PCB would stick and  
> had to
> be helped along, with groaning and cracking noises; not reassuring.
>
> One tutorial on the group mentionned passing the PCB 8 times through the
> laminator, that's not really acceptable for me.  I'd like to do some  
> minor
> volume and would like to cut that down.  I am wondering if preheating the
> prepped PCBs in the small toaster ovens would shorten the process  
> somewhat.
> Anyone try that yet?
>
> I'm seriously considering finding a scrap copier and using the hot drum  
> in
> there for laminating.  Ideally, a laser printer that I could open and try
> the straight through direct printing would be ideal, but I scavenged my
> LaserJet II a few months ago for the motors.  WAAAAAH!!!!  I killed the
> roller, and I didn't take notes what went where, and broke some critical
> flex cables by accident.  d'uh...
>
> I've read through the files on the group and considering options at this
> point.  I'll try printing on the outer side of the silicone paper and see
> what that gives.
>
> Can you tell me more about this high temp silicone you talk about?  How  
> do
> we use that?
>
> I'm not going to be fabricating PCBs on a large scale, but I do want to  
> be
> able to handle something in the order of under 100 sheets of 8 1/2" x 11"
> single-sided.  I'm seriously starting to consider investing in a Saber or
> similar machine:
> http://www.online-inc.com/Product%20Pages/Sabre%20CloseUp.htm
>
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com  
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
> la part de Stefan Trethan
> Envoy\ufffd : mai 29 2005 02:23
> \ufffd : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment  
> Paper
>
>
> Robert, you are seeing much the same thing i saw back then when trying
> baking paper.
> The coating is just too slippery to hold the toner. The back allows
> printing because it is not coated.
>
> It seems, baking paper works only with certain printers and or for  
> certain
> people.
>
> If i were you, i'd try silicone coating with high-temp silicone. The
> difference is the surface is kind of sticky.
>
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

to modify laminator is a thing must been done.

laminator seems setting at temperature just
above 100C. Far from good result for TT.
Fuser in laser printer, has suitable temperature.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Hedan" <robert.hedan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 3:41 AM
Subject: RE : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment
Paper


Well, I got excellent results printing onto PlayBoy magazines.  The lines
were extremely crisp.  The problem occurred during passing through the
laminator, the toner would barely stick if at all.  The silicone papers did
give partial results, but nothing to jump up and down about.

I've tried the $30 el-cheapo WalMart laminator, save your money.  It doesn't
even make a dent, doesn't seem hot enough.  The GBC 300 gave me some
results, but showed signs of serious stress.  The PCB would stick and had to
be helped along, with groaning and cracking noises; not reassuring.

One tutorial on the group mentionned passing the PCB 8 times through the
laminator, that's not really acceptable for me.  I'd like to do some minor
volume and would like to cut that down.  I am wondering if preheating the
prepped PCBs in the small toaster ovens would shorten the process somewhat.
Anyone try that yet?

I'm seriously considering finding a scrap copier and using the hot drum in
there for laminating.  Ideally, a laser printer that I could open and try
the straight through direct printing would be ideal, but I scavenged my
LaserJet II a few months ago for the motors.  WAAAAAH!!!!  I killed the
roller, and I didn't take notes what went where, and broke some critical
flex cables by accident.  d'uh...

I've read through the files on the group and considering options at this
point.  I'll try printing on the outer side of the silicone paper and see
what that gives.

Can you tell me more about this high temp silicone you talk about?  How do
we use that?

I'm not going to be fabricating PCBs on a large scale, but I do want to be
able to handle something in the order of under 100 sheets of 8 1/2" x 11"
single-sided.  I'm seriously starting to consider investing in a Saber or
similar machine:
http://www.online-inc.com/Product%20Pages/Sabre%20CloseUp.htm


Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoy\ufffd : mai 29 2005 02:23
\ufffd : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


Robert, you are seeing much the same thing i saw back then when trying
baking paper.
The coating is just too slippery to hold the toner. The back allows
printing because it is not coated.

It seems, baking paper works only with certain printers and or for certain
people.

If i were you, i'd try silicone coating with high-temp silicone. The
difference is the surface is kind of sticky.


ST



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
Yahoo! Groups Links










Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
Yahoo! Groups Links








__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Exactly how hot do we want to expose the transfer paper?  What temperature
do we need to affect the toner?

I've been thinking of these flat electric grills at Canadian Tire:
<http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/images/Appliances/GriddlesSkillets/0430
830_450_CC_35207.jpg>

Darn, they don't have the large flat one any more.  But then again, this
folding unit has double heating elements.  I wonder if it can easily be
modded for double-sided toner transfer?

Great, OUT OF STOCK.

<http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_
id=845524443277209&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374303517498&FOLDER%3C%3Ebrows
ePath=2534374303517599&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=1408474396669981&FOLDER%3C%3Ef
older_id=1408474396669981&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1117
379961124>

And it was the compact model too.  I'm going to check out the local stores
and see if they have any on liquidation.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de microsoftwarecontrol
Envoyé : mai 29 2005 11:15
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper



to modify laminator is a thing must been done.

laminator seems setting at temperature just
above 100C. Far from good result for TT.
Fuser in laser printer, has suitable temperature.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

We want something like 160C.

Remember presses have shown problems with unevenness in the past, i would  
not like to go there without having positive reports first.


ST



On Sun, 29 May 2005 17:21:35 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Exactly how hot do we want to expose the transfer paper?  What  
> temperature
> do we need to affect the toner?
> I've been thinking of these flat electric grills at Canadian Tire:
> <http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/images/Appliances/GriddlesSkillets/0430
> 830_450_CC_35207.jpg>
> Darn, they don't have the large flat one any more.  But then again, this
> folding unit has double heating elements.  I wonder if it can easily be
> modded for double-sided toner transfer?
> Great, OUT OF STOCK.
> <http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_
> id=845524443277209&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374303517498&FOLDER%3C%3Ebrows
> ePath=2534374303517599&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=1408474396669981&FOLDER%3C%3Ef
> older_id=1408474396669981&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1117
> 379961124>
> And it was the compact model too.  I'm going to check out the local  
> stores
> and see if they have any on liquidation.
> Robert
>
>

Ok, so we want to make sure the temperature is spread evenly.

What if we change approach?  Instead of putting the heat onto the transfer,
why not put the transfer within the heat?  :)

Take 2 metals plates, clamp the PCB and transfer paper between both, and
slip the assembly into a convection oven at the desired temperature for X
minutes?

Robert
:)






We want something like 160C.

Remember presses have shown problems with unevenness in the past, i would  
not like to go there without having positive reports first.


ST



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

On Sun, 29 May 2005 17:48:48 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Ok, so we want to make sure the temperature is spread evenly.
> What if we change approach?  Instead of putting the heat onto the  
> transfer,
> why not put the transfer within the heat?
> Take 2 metals plates, clamp the PCB and transfer paper between both, and
> slip the assembly into a convection oven at the desired temperature for X
> minutes?
> Robert
>
>


I think someone has tried it, look in the archives.

you need pressure, and heat, both in the right amount and right places,  
and right timing.

I'm not saying a press won't work or a oven won't work, what i'm saying is  
i can guarantee that a fuser or laminator will work very well.
Of course you are encouraged to experiment, only this way we learn of new  
methods.


ST

You mean you are using optical -zoom- not digital zoom. Every digital
camera is also "optical" in that they all use lenses.

It still appears pixellated. I see groups of 3 pixels on a side that
appear to be very much the same in brightness.

DPI is meaningless when it comes to a camera. Can you tell me what the
CCD size is in pixels?

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@v...>
wrote:
> Nope, no pixellation, just magnification under a microscope instead of
> software zooming.  Optical means using lenses like in older cameras
(think

> of a telescope), digital is image processing like on current electronic
> cameras (this process fills in blanks).
> 

> The camera is probably
> only 600dpi, but it does not do any modification to the image.

Hi Robert,

I read yourpost about doing a minor production run of 100 8.5" x 11" 
pcbs.

There are definitely scaling up problems. Here are a few for your 
considerations:

Environmental --- disposal of the hazardous wastes produced.
                  disposal of the copper contanminated water.

Manufacturing -- sq footage needed to produce the pcbs
                 Manually drilling 500 holes per pcb, means 50,000 
holes! If you have never done this. be prepared. I would seriously 
consider a CNC driller.

Time -- it still takes time to take each board through the steps. 
Are you plannng on component markings or solder masks. Don't forget 
cutting and testing the boards.

All of these are acheivable for the home brewer. Any of the 
techeniques can be made to work, and work well for single pcbs and 
very small runs. But at those volumes the logical way is to send it 
to a board house and let them do it. The overall quality and 
appearance of the pcb will be much better.

I'm not saying don't try it. Home brewing pcbs is a lot a fun and a 
challenge, and there is a sense of pride in seeing the final result, 
but look at the bigger picture and decide for yourself.

Good Luck,

Myc

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Sun, 29 May 2005 07:52:38 +0200, Robert Hedan  
> <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
> 
> 
>>And now for the really stupid question:
>>Do you print on the inner surface of the roll?
>>I tried that and I'm getting decent printing, but the transfer is a total
>>zero.
>>Robert
>>
> 
> Robert, you are seeing much the same thing i saw back then when trying  
> baking paper.
> The coating is just too slippery to hold the toner. The back allows  
> printing because it is not coated.
> 
> It seems, baking paper works only with certain printers and or for certain  
> people.
> 
> If i were you, i'd try silicone coating with high-temp silicone. The  
> difference is the surface is kind of sticky.
> 
> 


Ok here are my results and what I see..

   First off, mainly used the outside so far since it's smoother.  Going to try 
the inside since it may be better, never can tell.

   S, this stuff is impregnated.  While there is a small texture difference, 
it's the paper not the silicone, or the silicone on that side had a rougher 
roller.  Both sides print equally well, and there's nothing in the instructions 
to say cook on one side.  You can barely even feel the difference it's so 
slight, I'm sure most of the general public wouldn't ever notice it.  The other 
still may be slightly better but the sheet I have is excellent, I'd say the 
problems are mostly not with the sheet but heating and board problems.  Makes me 
appreciate that a large part of how well my inkjet paper TT worked was the 
coating on the paper binding it together better.

   Toner is sticking fine for printing, it is the transfer that is a problem. 
Did much better when I preheated the board 2 passes with a paper to protect it 
from oxidizing from the heat and air.  Then put on the print and did 4 passes in 
or so.  Did ok but not perfect, I'd grade it about 75%.  Really about 95% of the 
toner of course, just breaks etc.

   Most of the breaks are on scratch lines etc from cleaning.  The sections that 
transferred near 100% where where I'd done the best job of prep.  I think that a 
simple system to clean the board without scratching, and then burnish it to good 
smoothness may make it an excellent method.  A cheap electric disc 
sander/polisher ($20 or so) wouldn't add much to the cost or complexity if it 
let you use $2 pre-made paper.



   The cheap GBC (Does anyone else say Game Boy Color in their head every time 
they see GBC?) laminator works ok.  But 12-15 min warm up time.  The Xerox 
(there is another brand name for same one) heats up in only 4 mins, so has much 
better heat capability.  You really need the high wattage to be able to keep 
temp when a cold PC board hits it, even then probably a few passes.  Or a good 
preheat of the board, basically what my extra passes did.  Paper and silicone 
are both not great at heat conduction.  The liquid silicone stuff for heat sinks 
is for gap filling, and usually impregnated with a better heat conductor.



   For a really different paper, it just hit me to try and laminate a print from 
my aluminum foil.  Since my printer has little problem with an AL piece, it is 
worth a try.  Should give much better heat transfer than silicone does, and 
smoother too.. :)  Track widths do 'sink' into the paper a bit, but I've got a 
board with wide tracks so it won't matter much.  The lines are a little bit 
thinner from the toner denting the thin foil into the paper, maybe will spread 
back out in transfer.  May have dueling metal foils though, wonder which the 
toner will stick to better.

   And I need to find 1/2 or 1 oz copper foil.  I could easily print with a 
paper sheet carrier to pull the foil through, and then glue the foil to the 
board then etch.


   My direct printing from laser won't quite work with no mods.  It will feed 
90% plus parts of the path by itself, but there are a few places it will hang up 
due to slight bends etc in the paper path.  Basically it has 1 plane then 
another at a slight angle, so I'm going to have to cut the side frames, get them 
in line, and bolt on some of the metal straps from the hardware store.  Still 
relatively simple mod, but a truly straight printer would be better.  Not sure 
if any are out there, I bet they almost all hit low on the rollers and expect 
some small ability to bend.

   Any printers with a truly round roller fuser would be a start, since it'll 
suck in anything aligned too high.  Anyone know for sure their printer has a 
round top and bottom roller fuser please speak up, it'll have less critical 
alignment.  Doesn't even matter to me if the path is straight, none will likely 
be straight enough so all will probably need a mod, just more or less of one.


   Time for some foil.

   Oh yeah big PS.  My old toner cart was HP.  The new one is HP.  Old one was 
definitely better for toner transfer.  Go figure, I think they changed something 
just a little.  Might possibly have been refill toner but from the page count I 
got the printer at I think it was just older original.  New one prints even 
better on page, but seems just a little bit 'thinner', and that makes a big 
difference for transfers.

Alan

Yeah, I'm going to have to do some math.  I have a 1st run of 20 demos or
so, I plan on doing those myself.  But the more I work trying to find an
alternative to photo-sensitive PCBs, the more I doubt I will ever get a
reliable and simple alternative.

Laser printer brand, laminator brand, even age of toner seems to be a
variable; getting all of those in line seems a very delicate balancing act.
Having to pass multiple times in the laminator is a big downer for me, I'm
not saving time.

I'll probably stick with printing on transparencies and using
photo-sensitive boards.  I get near professional quality every time, and the
process is so simple.  It may be a bit more expensive, but I appreciate the
quality, speed and ease of use.

We have a yearly collection of hazardous material in our town.  That's how I
plan on disposing of the crap.

I've been looking into fabricating my own CNC drilling station, but I'm just
a bit screws short of being able to do that yet.  :D   Soon...

Outsourcing is definitely the way to go once I increase volume, I have no
doubt on that.  I was just hoping to be able to push that back a bit, but
that seems unlikely given the results I've been having with toner transfer
and laminators.

Robert
:)




-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : mai 29 2005 18:46
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Minor production run?


Hi Robert,

I read yourpost about doing a minor production run of 100 8.5" x 11" 
pcbs.

There are definitely scaling up problems. Here are a few for your 
considerations:

Environmental --- disposal of the hazardous wastes produced.
                  disposal of the copper contanminated water.

Manufacturing -- sq footage needed to produce the pcbs
                 Manually drilling 500 holes per pcb, means 50,000 
holes! If you have never done this. be prepared. I would seriously 
consider a CNC driller.

Time -- it still takes time to take each board through the steps. 
Are you plannng on component markings or solder masks. Don't forget 
cutting and testing the boards.

All of these are acheivable for the home brewer. Any of the 
techeniques can be made to work, and work well for single pcbs and 
very small runs. But at those volumes the logical way is to send it 
to a board house and let them do it. The overall quality and 
appearance of the pcb will be much better.

I'm not saying don't try it. Home brewing pcbs is a lot a fun and a 
challenge, and there is a sense of pride in seeing the final result, 
but look at the bigger picture and decide for yourself.

Good Luck,

Myc









Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Robert Hedan wrote:

> I'll probably stick with printing on transparencies and using
> photo-sensitive boards.  I get near professional quality every time, and the
> process is so simple.  It may be a bit more expensive, but I appreciate the
> quality, speed and ease of use.
> 

   If you're doing mid-scale, it may not even be much more.  Get the stuff and 
sensitize your own boards, and it works out reasonably cheap.  I normally 
recommend against it for general hacking since you can easily touch up the odd 
transfer for now and then work, but with 10's and 100's around the corner it'll 
be worth the extras if one of the several things I'm trying don't pan out soon.


> We have a yearly collection of hazardous material in our town.  That's how I
> plan on disposing of the crap.
> 
> I've been looking into fabricating my own CNC drilling station, but I'm just
> a bit screws short of being able to do that yet.  :D   Soon...

   I've built one, it's realtively simple too.  $75 or so plus spare motors and 
my own built driver board.  All just a few different parts from Lowes etc.  I 
need to take better pictures and write it up, I think it's about as minimal as 
you can get and still have an almost entirely metal machine.  The good drawer 
rails and aluminum angle and threaded rod and connecting nuts.  If you know the 
right things to do you can make everything free and aligned while eliminating 
most play and centering what's there.  Mine will drill with #80 bits, most 
people say you need a real machine to do that, it just needs to have proper 
alignment.

> 
> Outsourcing is definitely the way to go once I increase volume, I have no
> doubt on that.  I was just hoping to be able to push that back a bit, but
> that seems unlikely given the results I've been having with toner transfer
> and laminators.
> 

   Yes been looking myself.  Most low cost manufacturers want a rediculously 
high premium per board for multiple board panels vs the same board size as a 
single board.  Rediculous 'you're doing a lot, we need more of your profit even 
though you're not getting any more board than someone with a single big board' 
reasoning instead of realizing that of course more small boards means you're 
selling more $5 or $10 items instead of $200 items.  If my boards hit $10 each 
they aren't worth doing.

   When I find a decent place that does a reasonable flat rate or at least a 
much more reasonable per board extra I'll post it here..

Alan

Alan King wrote:


> 
>    When I find a decent place that does a reasonable flat rate or at least a 
> much more reasonable per board extra I'll post it here..
> 


http://www.pcb4less.com/

  PROTOTYPE & PRODUCTION PRICE TABLE - UNIT PRICE
Quantity 	20 Day 	15 Day 	10 Day 	7 Day 	5 Day 	4 Day 	3 Day	2 Day
25  	$6.73  	$6.73  	$6.73  	$6.73  	$8.15  	$9.57  	$10.99  	$12.76
50  	$4.30  	$4.56  	$4.56  	$4.81  	$5.82  	$6.83  	$7.85  	$9.11
100  	$3.79  	$3.79  	$3.79  	$4.01  	$5.12  	$6.01  	$6.90  	$8.02
250  	$3.18  	$3.18  	$3.18  	$3.37  	$4.31  	$5.05  	$5.62  	$6.18
500  	$2.92  	$2.92  	$2.92  	$3.09  	$3.95  	Call 	Call 	Call
1000  	$2.57  	$2.57  	$2.57  	$2.72  	Call 	Call 	Call 	Call
2500  	$2.02  	$2.16  	$2.30  	$2.43  	Call 	Call 	Call 	Call

  Tooling Charge = $100.00


   These guys are actually ok.  20 day lead, with $3.79 + $1 per for 100 is 
fairly good, looks the most reasonable that I've found so far.

   This is 4x4 board with 2 layers no mask etc..  Actually just tried, cost 
didn't change for mask and screen on both sides, that's not too bad at all.


   Click the guest button though, even after registering it wouldn't let me log 
in for now..

Alan

I've got my eye on them also.

If you check the chart, the price is the same for 10 day lead time as well;
50% reduction in waiting.  7 day is only $20 more, it's at 5 days that it
starts getting much more expensive.

I used the same technique selecting CPUs for my new PCs; start at the
bottom, and work my way up until I hit a big price hike, then I take the CPU
just before the hike.

I have 3 SP57B steppers waiting on the shelf.  I've got an assortment of
threaded rods from 3/8" up to 1/2" with 2" long nuts.  I was planning on
fixing 2 of these long nuts onto the slides and passing the threaded rod
through.  By using 2 nuts, I get most of the play out.

I'd love to see pics on DIY CNC drilling stations.  I've got most of the
stuff figured out now, I just need to plug a few holes in my design.  One
last place I have to go see is a local ball bearing shop to get several
units of various sizes.

Then I have to address alignment; how to get it all perfect (or close to).
Even making a flat surface is not that easy when you talk 1/1000s of an
inch.  Adding a gantry and the sliding motor platform is more variables.  I
really want to make one, but I'm not making it unless I can address
alignment properly.  I might as well use my small vertical drill if my CNC
station is not aligned right.

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Alan King
Envoyé : mai 29 2005 21:01
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Minor production run?


Alan King wrote:


> 
>    When I find a decent place that does a reasonable flat rate or at 
> least a
> much more reasonable per board extra I'll post it here..
> 


http://www.pcb4less.com/

  PROTOTYPE & PRODUCTION PRICE TABLE - UNIT PRICE
Quantity 	20 Day 	15 Day 	10 Day 	7 Day 	5 Day 	4 Day 	3 Day	2
Day
25  	$6.73  	$6.73  	$6.73  	$6.73  	$8.15  	$9.57  	$10.99
$12.76
50  	$4.30  	$4.56  	$4.56  	$4.81  	$5.82  	$6.83  	$7.85  	$9.11
100  	$3.79  	$3.79  	$3.79  	$4.01  	$5.12  	$6.01  	$6.90  	$8.02
250  	$3.18  	$3.18  	$3.18  	$3.37  	$4.31  	$5.05  	$5.62  	$6.18
500  	$2.92  	$2.92  	$2.92  	$3.09  	$3.95  	Call 	Call 	Call
1000  	$2.57  	$2.57  	$2.57  	$2.72  	Call 	Call 	Call 	Call
2500  	$2.02  	$2.16  	$2.30  	$2.43  	Call 	Call 	Call 	Call

  Tooling Charge = $100.00


   These guys are actually ok.  20 day lead, with $3.79 + $1 per for 100 is 
fairly good, looks the most reasonable that I've found so far.

   This is 4x4 board with 2 layers no mask etc..  Actually just tried, cost 
didn't change for mask and screen on both sides, that's not too bad at all.


   Click the guest button though, even after registering it wouldn't let me
log 
in for now..

Alan




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BINGO!  Thanks Alan!

I've been mulling over how to get a perfectly level platform and I think I
have it.  If you look under the top of a small table saw, you'll see a sort
of criss-cross reinforcement pattern in the alloy.  Duplicating this pattern
into wood using a router (but with deeper cuts), placing a short retaining
wall around the square and then filling that with liquid plastic, I should
have a fairly sturdy and flat surface.

Gravity will take care of the hard work for me, perfectly flat surface.  I
just have to sand 1/8" along the perimeter to remove that curve liquids do
along vertical walls.

I can also use the same technique to make a perfectly flat side to the
gantry and the vertical drill slide; 2 other areas that still puzzled me.
Liquid plastic also has the advantage of strength with little weight and can
be threaded.

Shoot, there might even be a small market for this if I can make it
straight.

Robert
:)




   I've built one, it's realtively simple too.  $75 or so plus spare motors
and 
my own built driver board.  All just a few different parts from Lowes etc.
I 
need to take better pictures and write it up, I think it's about as minimal
as 
you can get and still have an almost entirely metal machine.  The good
drawer 
rails and aluminum angle and threaded rod and connecting nuts.  If you know
the 
right things to do you can make everything free and aligned while
eliminating 
most play and centering what's there.  Mine will drill with #80 bits, most 
people say you need a real machine to do that, it just needs to have proper 
alignment.

Alan




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NASA did this to get a perfectly flat floor, poured epoxy a few inches
deep onto a cement slab.

Well, technically it's going to follow the curvature of the Earth, but
I'll bet you can deal with the slight bulge. ;')

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@v...>
wrote:
> BINGO!  Thanks Alan!
> 
> I've been mulling over how to get a perfectly level platform and I
think I
> have it.  If you look under the top of a small table saw, you'll see
a sort
> of criss-cross reinforcement pattern in the alloy.  Duplicating this
pattern
> into wood using a router (but with deeper cuts), placing a short
retaining
> wall around the square and then filling that with liquid plastic, I
should
> have a fairly sturdy and flat surface.
> 
> Gravity will take care of the hard work for me, perfectly flat
surface.  I
> just have to sand 1/8" along the perimeter to remove that curve
liquids do
> along vertical walls.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
>    When I find a decent place that does a reasonable flat rate or at 
least a 
> much more reasonable per board extra I'll post it here..


I've just used CustomPCB in Kuala Lumpur for a small run of 30 single-
sided PCBs. They were a lot cheaper than my usual suppliers, quality 
was excellent and I got them in about 10 days.

http://www.custompcb.com/

Leon

leon_heller wrote:

>I've just used CustomPCB in Kuala Lumpur for a small run of 30 single-
>sided PCBs. They were a lot cheaper than my usual suppliers, quality 
>was excellent and I got them in about 10 days.
>
>http://www.custompcb.com/
>
>Leon
>  
>
Looks pretty good.  They allow panelization.  However, if you want the 
works with double sided, soldermasks x 2, and silkscreen, it starts 
adding up.  I got close to that price from Advanced Circuits 
(http://www.4pcb.com/index.htm) , but that was 2 years ago -- looks like 
they are more expensive now. 

David

Robert Hedan wrote:

> I've got my eye on them also.
> 
> If you check the chart, the price is the same for 10 day lead time as well;
> 50% reduction in waiting.  7 day is only $20 more, it's at 5 days that it
> starts getting much more expensive.
> 
> I used the same technique selecting CPUs for my new PCs; start at the
> bottom, and work my way up until I hit a big price hike, then I take the CPU
> just before the hike.
> 
> I have 3 SP57B steppers waiting on the shelf.  I've got an assortment of
> threaded rods from 3/8" up to 1/2" with 2" long nuts.  I was planning on
> fixing 2 of these long nuts onto the slides and passing the threaded rod
> through.  By using 2 nuts, I get most of the play out.
> 
> I'd love to see pics on DIY CNC drilling stations.  I've got most of the
> stuff figured out now, I just need to plug a few holes in my design.  One
> last place I have to go see is a local ball bearing shop to get several
> units of various sizes.
> 
> Then I have to address alignment; how to get it all perfect (or close to).
> Even making a flat surface is not that easy when you talk 1/1000s of an
> inch.  Adding a gantry and the sliding motor platform is more variables.  I
> really want to make one, but I'm not making it unless I can address
> alignment properly.  I might as well use my small vertical drill if my CNC
> station is not aligned right.
> 
> Robert
> :)
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
> la part de Alan King
> Envoy\ufffd : mai 29 2005 21:01
> \ufffd : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Minor production run?
> 
> 

   Yep of course, I do the same, actually saw it before I mailed just forgot to 
go back and edit it for the lead time for best value..  Thought I did, sometimes 
I think mozilla doesn't keep all the edits or something.  But got looking and 
pricing other things as well, mask etc.  May have forgot to do the edit..


   I just used plain 1/4-20, it's fine for light duty.  A driller doesn't need 
CNC heft.  Mine has tons of play if I put pressure on it etc, but as long as 
it's aligned correctly and centers itself in the play it'll still work great.  I 
don't even worry about the backlash much, easy to approach from the same side 
for a drilling program.

   And look for ball bearings on Ebay.  I got a pack of 50 precision for like 
$20.  Smaller skate sizes like that are cheap even for precision.  Might have to 
cut down your rods to fit etc, but they'd work.



   Remember, alignment, precision, absolute precision, and play are all seperate 
things.  Alignment is the only one that is critical.  End to end relative 
precision isn't that critical, you can interpolate.  Absolute precision isn't 
that critical, you'll be having to align to the board somehow anyway, fixed 
alignments rarely work well with boards.

   Vertical alignment is the only one really critical, so you don't break bits. 
  About everything else is pretty loose, anything you do will be good enough for 
the most part.  You could even make it way out of square on purpose, and still 
map it back to working great.  Drill depth isn't critical etc.  X and Y have to 
be relatively accurate for a single run, but not absolutely so, you can easily 
calculate where you should be after locating 3 points actual position.  A 
machine necessary to do good drilling is way less precision than some .0001" 
absolutely square in every dimension monster mill, some people just are using 
software that can't do simple remapping so that's how they see it.

Alan

Robert Hedan wrote:

> BINGO!  Thanks Alan!
> 
> I've been mulling over how to get a perfectly level platform and I think I
> have it.  If you look under the top of a small table saw, you'll see a sort
> of criss-cross reinforcement pattern in the alloy.  Duplicating this pattern
> into wood using a router (but with deeper cuts), placing a short retaining
> wall around the square and then filling that with liquid plastic, I should
> have a fairly sturdy and flat surface.


   But it's a bit easier to fill the space with hmm what,...  more wood! :)
Really flatness is simply not needed if your main purpose is drilling.  Just use 
a 1/2" piece of wood for a sacrificial plate and drill 1/8" or so extra.  How 
far extra you go doesn't matter much..

> 
> Gravity will take care of the hard work for me, perfectly flat surface.  I
> just have to sand 1/8" along the perimeter to remove that curve liquids do
> along vertical walls.

   Meniscus or similar is one of the words, can't recall if that covers both up 
and down or only one or is really the flat in the center, it's been a long time.

> 
> I can also use the same technique to make a perfectly flat side to the
> gantry and the vertical drill slide; 2 other areas that still puzzled me.
> Liquid plastic also has the advantage of strength with little weight and can
> be threaded.
> 
   You don't NEED 'flat', just aligned.  As long as your axes are aligned to 
each other properly, it won't matter if you are 1/16th inch off all over the 
place for 'flat', you'll still drill correctly.  You seem to be thinking from 
'everything should be perfect'.  You should always start from 'everything is 
totally screwed' and work up to 'this is the abolute minimum to get perfect 
results'.   You don't need half of what you're already talking about lol ..




> Shoot, there might even be a small market for this if I can make it
> straight.
> 
> Robert
> :)
> 


   Yeah, I have a few hundred steppers on hand.  I can also actually do the 
needed things too, have my own system and layout that can run 5 phase bipolar 
steppers and anything less.  Still hard to get too motivated, the market is 
relatively tiny.

   Use the straightness that is already in a $20 8 foot section of aluminum 
angle from Lowes, and forget about making some surface that is ultra flat, it's 
not needed.  Actually I really used a 'straightness' that is far better than 
that, I simply used two points as endpoints everywhere it was possible.  Nothing 
gets much more straight than that.  The 'straight' from the rails was only a 
starting point to use as a starting reference.  I need to write it up and take 
pictures, while always a bit time consuming to do the work it's really not that 
bad to build.

Alan

Alan King wrote:

> some people just are using
> software that can't do simple remapping so that's how they see it.

What software do you use?

Ed

Thanks Alan.

"But it's a bit easier to fill the space with hmm what,...  more wood! :)
Really flatness is simply not needed if your main purpose is drilling.  Just
use a 1/2" piece of wood for a sacrificial plate and drill 1/8" or so extra.
How far extra you go doesn't matter much.."

Basic wooden surface, now that's reassuring to read, that's what I work with
usually.  I never made a drilling station and don't have anyone in my
entourage who has.  Since our DRILL files are in thou, I expected that
precision started from the ground up.

"You don't NEED 'flat', just aligned.  As long as your axes are aligned to 
each other properly, it won't matter if you are 1/16th inch off all over the

place for 'flat', you'll still drill correctly.  You seem to be thinking
from 
'everything should be perfect'.  You should always start from 'everything is

totally screwed' and work up to 'this is the abolute minimum to get perfect 
results'.   You don't need half of what you're already talking about lol .."

I knew I could compensate for the total distance, that was figured out
already.  I thought a thou or two on the platform, two more on the gantry,
another on the drilling rail and you ended up with one big sloppy machine.

"Yeah, I have a few hundred steppers on hand.  I can also actually do the 
needed things too, have my own system and layout that can run 5 phase
bipolar 
steppers and anything less.  Still hard to get too motivated, the market is 
relatively tiny."

Motivation, yeah, that seemed to be a problem getting up today.  :D

"Use the straightness that is already in a $20 8 foot section of aluminum 
angle from Lowes, and forget about making some surface that is ultra flat,
it's 
not needed.  Actually I really used a 'straightness' that is far better than

that, I simply used two points as endpoints everywhere it was possible.
Nothing 
gets much more straight than that.  The 'straight' from the rails was only a

starting point to use as a starting reference.  I need to write it up and
take 
pictures, while always a bit time consuming to do the work it's really not
that 
bad to build."

I've read posts (somewhere) that had really made this application turn into
a woodworker's nightmare.  Maybe when I said I'd like to do mild CNC
(plastic) didn't help.  But I do need a drilling station and fast.  Your
comments are encouraging in that it is within the reach of an ordinary
do-it-yourselfer to build this.

Robert
:)





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I use QCAD for my circuit design and printing.

Robert
:)


---------------------------


What software do you use?

Ed




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Alan,

I am curious to know how you attached your stepper onto the threaded rod.

Robert
:)




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Robert Hedan wrote:

> Alan,
> 
> I am curious to know how you attached your stepper onto the threaded rod.
> 
> Robert :)
> 


   Someone on Ebay had a type of shaft couplers up for half price, I got like 
100 or so.  Basically a long collar with two set screws, if your alignment is 
good they work well enough for reasonably light duty.

   I'll try and run into the brand name it's on the bag but not in my emails, 
they're on the web and were relatively cheap even at retail.  I think the bag of 
25 was only like $20 straight from them.

   Heck let me just take a few pics of the CNC, it's right here so will only 
take a few minutes to put some up.  I've never even done anything past drilling 
on it so not sure it's up to too much more, but it's good enough to do some stuff.

Alan

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Alan King" <alan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY Drilling station


> Robert Hedan wrote:
>
>> Alan,
>>
>> I am curious to know how you attached your stepper onto the threaded rod.
>>
>> Robert :)
>>
>
>
>   Someone on Ebay had a type of shaft couplers up for half price, I got 
> like
> 100 or so.  Basically a long collar with two set screws, if your alignment 
> is
> good they work well enough for reasonably light duty.

You get couplings that take up misalignment, like Oldham couplings.

Leon

Robert Hedan wrote:

> Thanks Alan.
> 

> I knew I could compensate for the total distance, that was figured out
> already.  I thought a thou or two on the platform, two more on the gantry,
> another on the drilling rail and you ended up with one big sloppy machine.
> 

   Only precision needed is X and Y, taken care of in the rails and screw.  Z is 
critical in the alignment, so that the shaft of a drill travels precisely in 
through the hole cut by the tip.  Distance up and down is fairly non-critical. 
Board being flat is fairly non-critical.  A rail on either side of the board, 
and make sure that they are precisely aligned.  Couldn't care less what lies 
between them as long as they are aligned, the rest of the machine rides on their 
alignment, not what they rest on etc.




> 
> I've read posts (somewhere) that had really made this application turn into
> a woodworker's nightmare.  Maybe when I said I'd like to do mild CNC
> (plastic) didn't help.  But I do need a drilling station and fast.  Your
> comments are encouraging in that it is within the reach of an ordinary
> do-it-yourselfer to build this.
> 
> Robert
> :)
> 


   I think people doing it in wood are nuts :).  Or maybe just love woodworking. 
   I sort of figured why make a straight surface when you can go buy one, 
probably about as cheap as the wood too.  Plus for me drilling a hole and 
putting a screw and nut through it about 100 times easier than making wood joints.

http://home.nc.rr.com/alan69/CNC/

Board is the first hmm no second time I drilled a pattern, on a junk board. 
Only etched that board because it was the first one to have enough transfer 
pattern to etch and see.  Next board was useable.  I didn't know what I was 
doing yet eye-balling it, so the upper right holes have a few misaligned.  After 
that it did ok, all off but that's me not the machine they're all about the same 
off.  I didn't bother much either it was just a test.

Controller is my own controller, MOSFETs and PIC and not much else.  Works good 
enough, have done a better layout since it needed a bit of improvement.  New 
layout can take 10 FETs per motor and run 5 phase too.  Or just 8 or just 4, 
depends on what you need to run.

Motor is a motor mount and coupler, total of about $5 including the motor, 
coupler, and mount.  Coupler has two set screws on the other side.

Whole is the whole thing.  Really need to cap off the vertical rails, I cut them 
off and they're sharp, usually keep a box over them.  Hasn't been used much in a 
while, the board is out of the clamp.  Just clamp the board and PC board and go. 
  Does 1'x1'x2 or 3 inches, could make it more easily by mounting the side rails 
up a bit and extending the Z axis.  Only used 1 8' piece of aluminum angle, and 
the inner 2 rails from 3 packs of the KV drawer slides.  Note that they are 
really the straightness, the angle is simply for 90 degree mounting and has two 
holes in it the rail is screwed through.

Xaxis is the gantry.  Easiest to access the board from the open end, so the side 
rails become the Y.  Motor is mounted in box with cutout for shaft, other end is 
just a bearing mount.

Yrail is just the end of one of the rails.

Zaxis is two metal electrical boxes.  Easier and fills more space so more 
accurate, the rail would only go up 1 1/2".  Boxes are all kinds of not square, 
but board travel is the only thing that matters so they're just canted slightly 
vs the X rails to bring the mounting board into square.

   I could probably eliminate 90% of the play that is there, simply by canting 
things just slightly to work the parts against each other.  But never bothered, 
it basically centers itself within the play, and with everything aligned right 
there is very little force acting to push it out of line.

Alan

but do take care to align the two shafts.  Those couplers can only
help with slight misalignments.  I know this from experience...

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@d...>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alan King" <alan@n...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 4:27 PM
> Subject: Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY Drilling station
> 
> 
> > Robert Hedan wrote:
> >
> >> Alan,
> >>
> >> I am curious to know how you attached your stepper onto the
threaded rod.
> >>
> >> Robert :)
> >>
> >
> >
> >   Someone on Ebay had a type of shaft couplers up for half price,
I got 
> > like
> > 100 or so.  Basically a long collar with two set screws, if your
alignment 

> > is
> > good they work well enough for reasonably light duty.
> 
> You get couplings that take up misalignment, like Oldham couplings.
> 
> Leon

Ed Okerson wrote:

> Alan King wrote:
> 
> 
>>some people just are using
>>software that can't do simple remapping so that's how they see it.
> 
> 
> What software do you use?
> 
> Ed

   It's my own.  Very simple comms and 3D line drawing/motion control in the PIC 
side, and a simple Qbasic program on the PC side doing all the math and telling 
it where to go.

   Locate a hole's actual positon by putting a small bit just over the board, 
then get it centered, then look from 90 degrees off and get it centered from 
that direction as well.  The program knows where that hole is supposed to be 
from the file, and where is really is from where you jogged the machine.  A 
second hole gets you a line, and also the actual distance between the holes. 
Use how far apart they are supposed to be vs really are to figure the error in 
scale, and use that to move to actual coordinates.  A third hole 90 deg off from 
one of those gets you the same distance and error for the other axis.  With 
three holes you can really work out misaligned rotation as well assuming the 
print is at least basically square.

   I know how and it's just as easy trig, but I've never bothered putting that 
part in.  Align one hole, move the motor in X, and slide rotate the board to 
align the other hole.  Then they're on the same Y in the program and reality, 
you have the rotation right, so from there it's just scaling and offsets of 
drill file vs machine coordinates.

   I don't use PC programming enough since I mostly do assembly on the 
microcontroller side of things, but it's a simple program so I should really 
rewrite it in C and flesh it out.  From this working point it was easy to add 
HPGL and do Corel Draw output, once I got that working I didn't go back to the 
comms and drilling program much.


   Main thing is I went to mostly surface mount.  A few jumpers is easier than 
messing with the drilling even if it takes a bit longer.  Heck you can do 2 
sided boards and vias without any drilling, simply bring traces to the edge of 
the board on top and bottom and shear it there and jumper around the edge.  It 
can do quite a bit if you lay out your board intending to use it from the start 
and put your crossovers near an edge.  Gotta mount a wire in the hole and solder 
both sides, may as well wrap a simple jumper around.

   I need to set the CNC back up and use it more, more for other things than 
drilling.  With a router bit it can do board cutting etc.  With a grinding wheel 
and a jig to hold the object to cut it can do some pretty neat stuff.  More 
useful is a simple 2 slide dremel with grinding wheel and a motor to move it. 
Unattended straight fiberglass cutting is the best kind with the dust.  Even 
with a plastic bag around it for the mess it's still quite noisy with a dremel. 
  Clamp it down, press the button, and go watch TV for a minute or grab a beer. 
  Hell end up watching the machine much of the time anyway, but at least you can 
get a good distance from the tool and save your ears.

Alan

> Robert Hedan wrote:
>
>> Alan,
>>
>> I am curious to know how you attached your stepper onto the threaded
>> rod.
>>
>> Robert :)
>>
>
>
>    Someone on Ebay had a type of shaft couplers up for half price, I got
> like
> 100 or so.  Basically a long collar with two set screws, if your alignment
> is
> good they work well enough for reasonably light duty.
>
>    I'll try and run into the brand name it's on the bag but not in my
> emails,
> they're on the web and were relatively cheap even at retail.  I think the
> bag of
> 25 was only like $20 straight from them.

I used rubber hose, actually vacuum line from the auto parts store.  Clamp
it on the shaft and threaded rod with hose clamps.  With that setup
alignment of the motor to the rod is not that critical.

Ed

Ed Okerson wrote:


> 
> I used rubber hose, actually vacuum line from the auto parts store.  Clamp
> it on the shaft and threaded rod with hose clamps.  With that setup
> alignment of the motor to the rod is not that critical.
> 
> Ed
> 

   Yep that works well too, but takes another bearing at the motor end.  Once I 
got good enough at how to get things to align properly, I just let the motor 
shaft be the other alignment point.


   And either drill a point hole for the set screw, or tighten it really tight 
to cut its sharp edge into the metal.  Either way get the screw in tight, then 
back it out just a little on one side of the coupler and loctite it.  That will 
give it just a little bit of wiggle room while still keeping things locked together.

   Really the hose works fine and is a bit easier, but you must have the ball 
bearing.  Hard to find not rolled hose, so even a short piece will be trying to 
put an angle at the shaft to rod connection.  Takes very little of that to bind 
things when you have a nut traveling on the rod.

   Also forgot to mention that the tool is the $18 or so Handi from wall mart. 
Very smooth, I like it better than my dremel.  But dremel has quite a few newer 
models now, so maybe some are better.

   NIB magnets with silicone or plastidip around them make excellent temp hold 
downs too, put screws or other magnets into the board to hold things down. 
Clamps work too but the magnets can do the job and don't get in the way as much 
as the clamps.

Alan

Alan,

Nice design! Very practical. I like the use of the electical boxes 
as structural elements. I've been collecting parts to build one for 
a while now, but have hesitated because of the apparent tolerances 
needed. Most of the info, comes fromm the CNC website, and most CNC 
designs are 'over engineered' for pcb drilling.

Looks like you have a winning design.

Congrats.

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> Robert Hedan wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Alan.
> > 
> 
> > I knew I could compensate for the total distance, that was 
figured out
> > already.  I thought a thou or two on the platform, two more on 
the gantry,
> > another on the drilling rail and you ended up with one big 
sloppy machine.
> > 
> 
>    Only precision needed is X and Y, taken care of in the rails 
and screw.  Z is 
> critical in the alignment, so that the shaft of a drill travels 
precisely in 
> through the hole cut by the tip.  Distance up and down is fairly 
non-critical. 
> Board being flat is fairly non-critical.  A rail on either side of 
the board, 
> and make sure that they are precisely aligned.  Couldn't care less 
what lies 
> between them as long as they are aligned, the rest of the machine 
rides on their 
> alignment, not what they rest on etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > I've read posts (somewhere) that had really made this 
application turn into
> > a woodworker's nightmare.  Maybe when I said I'd like to do mild 
CNC
> > (plastic) didn't help.  But I do need a drilling station and 
fast.  Your
> > comments are encouraging in that it is within the reach of an 
ordinary
> > do-it-yourselfer to build this.
> > 
> > Robert
> > :)
> > 
> 
> 
>    I think people doing it in wood are nuts :).  Or maybe just 
love woodworking. 
>    I sort of figured why make a straight surface when you can go 
buy one, 
> probably about as cheap as the wood too.  Plus for me drilling a 
hole and 
> putting a screw and nut through it about 100 times easier than 
making wood joints.
> 
> http://home.nc.rr.com/alan69/CNC/
> 
> Board is the first hmm no second time I drilled a pattern, on a 
junk board. 
> Only etched that board because it was the first one to have enough 
transfer 
> pattern to etch and see.  Next board was useable.  I didn't know 
what I was 
> doing yet eye-balling it, so the upper right holes have a few 
misaligned.  After 
> that it did ok, all off but that's me not the machine they're all 
about the same 
> off.  I didn't bother much either it was just a test.
> 
> Controller is my own controller, MOSFETs and PIC and not much 
else.  Works good 
> enough, have done a better layout since it needed a bit of 
improvement.  New 
> layout can take 10 FETs per motor and run 5 phase too.  Or just 8 
or just 4, 
> depends on what you need to run.
> 
> Motor is a motor mount and coupler, total of about $5 including 
the motor, 
> coupler, and mount.  Coupler has two set screws on the other side.
> 
> Whole is the whole thing.  Really need to cap off the vertical 
rails, I cut them 
> off and they're sharp, usually keep a box over them.  Hasn't been 
used much in a 
> while, the board is out of the clamp.  Just clamp the board and PC 
board and go. 
>   Does 1'x1'x2 or 3 inches, could make it more easily by mounting 
the side rails 
> up a bit and extending the Z axis.  Only used 1 8' piece of 
aluminum angle, and 
> the inner 2 rails from 3 packs of the KV drawer slides.  Note that 
they are 
> really the straightness, the angle is simply for 90 degree 
mounting and has two 
> holes in it the rail is screwed through.
> 
> Xaxis is the gantry.  Easiest to access the board from the open 
end, so the side 
> rails become the Y.  Motor is mounted in box with cutout for 
shaft, other end is 
> just a bearing mount.
> 
> Yrail is just the end of one of the rails.
> 
> Zaxis is two metal electrical boxes.  Easier and fills more space 
so more 
> accurate, the rail would only go up 1 1/2".  Boxes are all kinds 
of not square, 
> but board travel is the only thing that matters so they're just 
canted slightly 
> vs the X rails to bring the mounting board into square.
> 
>    I could probably eliminate 90% of the play that is there, 
simply by canting 
> things just slightly to work the parts against each other.  But 
never bothered, 
> it basically centers itself within the play, and with everything 
aligned right 

> there is very little force acting to push it out of line.
> 
> Alan

Hi Alan,

How about a couple of extra pictures? Would help in building mine.

1. the mounting of the screw end opposite to the motor with bearings

2. Close up of the nuts on the screw shaft.

Thanks,

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> Ed Okerson wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > I used rubber hose, actually vacuum line from the auto parts 
store.  Clamp
> > it on the shaft and threaded rod with hose clamps.  With that 
setup
> > alignment of the motor to the rod is not that critical.
> > 
> > Ed
> > 
> 
>    Yep that works well too, but takes another bearing at the motor 
end.  Once I 
> got good enough at how to get things to align properly, I just let 
the motor 
> shaft be the other alignment point.
> 
> 
>    And either drill a point hole for the set screw, or tighten it 
really tight 
> to cut its sharp edge into the metal.  Either way get the screw in 
tight, then 
> back it out just a little on one side of the coupler and loctite 
it.  That will 
> give it just a little bit of wiggle room while still keeping 
things locked together.
> 
>    Really the hose works fine and is a bit easier, but you must 
have the ball 
> bearing.  Hard to find not rolled hose, so even a short piece will 
be trying to 
> put an angle at the shaft to rod connection.  Takes very little of 
that to bind 
> things when you have a nut traveling on the rod.
> 
>    Also forgot to mention that the tool is the $18 or so Handi 
from wall mart. 
> Very smooth, I like it better than my dremel.  But dremel has 
quite a few newer 
> models now, so maybe some are better.
> 
>    NIB magnets with silicone or plastidip around them make 
excellent temp hold 
> downs too, put screws or other magnets into the board to hold 
things down. 
> Clamps work too but the magnets can do the job and don't get in 
the way as much 

> as the clamps.
> 
> Alan

A much simpler mechanical arrangement is to use polar coordinates, with the 
PCB on a turntable and the drill sliding in and out. Elektor mag. had a 
design based on this technique a few years ago.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

In a message dated 5/30/2005 10:49:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
leon.heller@... writes:

You get  couplings that take up misalignment, like Oldham  couplings.



Trouble with those is, they do not "fasten" the "motor-end" of the  screw.  I 
simply machined hollow hubs with "interference-fit" bores for  screw-end and 
motor-shaft, oh, but NOT "set-screws", but CLAMP type fit.   Required a bit 
more care in machining, but result is the screw is axial with the  motor and is 
rigid, depending on motor's bearings for thrust AND radial  bearing.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JanRwl@... wrote:

>  
> In a message dated 5/30/2005 10:49:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> leon.heller@... writes:
> 
> You get  couplings that take up misalignment, like Oldham  couplings.
> 

   Um why are you guys worrying about misalignment?  You're supposed to be 
taking it out of the machine not leaving it there.  Alignment is the primary 
skill required to make anything of this sort.  Get a handle on that first and 
then don't make things misaligned from the start.
> 
> Trouble with those is, they do not "fasten" the "motor-end" of the  screw.  I 
> simply machined hollow hubs with "interference-fit" bores for  screw-end and 
> motor-shaft, oh, but NOT "set-screws", but CLAMP type fit.   Required a bit 
> more care in machining, but result is the screw is axial with the  motor and is 
> rigid, depending on motor's bearings for thrust AND radial  bearing.
> 
> 

   You already have to mount bearings for the other end.  A few minutes and few 
bucks spent making 3 more of the same type mounts or making whole new parts that 
required machining in the first place, and care in it in the second.  I think I 
would go the other way.

   Considering I hardly ever touch a set screw, I don't see any benefit to a 
clamping system either.  These couplers were cheap.  If I bothered to find my 
loctite and put in the set screws I'd likely never touch them again.

   What I've got required nothing but a drill, bits, saw, screwdriver and 
wrench, and a good square to make.  May have been some other simple, cheap tool 
or two used too but I don't recall it off hand.  That's for a basically all 
metal machine, the wood for the bottom and mounting plate are simply for 
convenience to mount things, they could easily be made metal, it just wouldn't 
make any sense to do so.  The idea of knocking that up ten notches and needing 
any type of real machine tool to do something is sort of counter to the whole 
thing..

Alan

In a message dated 5/30/2005 1:25:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
mycroft2152@... writes:  
How  about a couple of extra pictures?

Look at my 1984 CNC PCB-Drill (Pet will be replaced by PC soon!) machine  
(bottom photo, I think?), and details of a plotter I built in '99:
            



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mycroft2152 wrote:

> Hi Alan,
> 
> How about a couple of extra pictures? Would help in building mine.
> 
> 1. the mounting of the screw end opposite to the motor with bearings
> 
> 2. Close up of the nuts on the screw shaft.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Myc
> 


   Hang on a day or two and I'll write up exactly how to build one. 
Nut/follower for X is crude but worked well enough that I never brought it out 
and made a more robust one.  Wasn't intending to put much in the way of 
machining loads on it so I never did the extra design time.  The basic rails are 
heavy duty, with a little more work in the drive system it could run a router. 
Can do it now you just have to go slow.

   Was kind of keeping it to myself since the bang for the buck and design was 
high, thought about making them.  I haven't seen anything on the net that made 
nearly as much sense for mainly drilling, most sub $100 for mechanics systems 
are wood or don't just bolt together etc.  I could probably build 10 in one day 
without breaking too much of a sweat.  Of course soon as I sold the first one 
the basic design would be out there anyway, but most can't do it all and I was 
going to sell it with my driver card etc.  That's why I have 2000 MOSFETs and 
hmm 300 motors or so on hand.  Heck even now I should put my 
rotation/translation code into the PIC side to hide it and start selling.  Seems 
relatively few people have a decent enough grasp on even basic trig to do things 
like that, at least judging by the CNC programs I see out there.  I consider 
most cheap programs that I've seen severely lacking in one respect or another, 
especially that one.  The one time effort to work out the trig to correct for 
everything is very small vs everyone having to align everything themselves..  My 
program has been a minimal effort so far yet still is at least not lacking for 
working the way it should lol.  Heck I need it up and running again, I may even 
work on it some tonight.

Alan

Well, I had ATTACHED four relevant photos in response to the below, and it  
was REJECTED, as the total was over 1 meg.  SO, I will attempt to re-send  in 
TWO parts:
 
In a message dated 5/30/2005 1:25:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
mycroft2152@... writes:  
How  about a couple of extra pictures?

Look at my 1984 CNC PCB-Drill (Pet will be replaced by PC soon!) machine  
(bottom photo, I think?), and details of a plotter I built in '99:
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Monday 30 May 2005 07:48 pm, JanRwl@... wrote:
> You should now see THREE of plotter, showing motors and screws, and ONE of
> CNC PCB Drill.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Apparently this list is set to not allow attachments...

You should now see THREE of plotter, showing motors and screws, and ONE of  
CNC PCB Drill.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes; WORKING on it!!!!!!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

These two just do NOT want to be  uploaded!!!!!!!!!!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jan,

Email them to me, I'll see what I can do.

robert.hedan@...

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@...m [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de JanRwl@...
Envoyé : mai 30 2005 19:55
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: DIY Drilling station


These two just do NOT want to be  uploaded!!!!!!!!!!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links

You should be able to post the pictures to the 'Photos' section of the 
group. From all indications, attachments are just not permitted on 
posts.


Regards, Bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:

> These two just do NOT want to be  uploaded!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo does not store attachments any more. They must be uploaded to 
the files section.

If you put anattachment on an email, the only people who will see it 
are those who receive all posts. If you get a summary only, it will 
be stripped first.

Myc

PS

The old PET was my first computer!Lot of fond memories.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob_xyz" <bob_barr@h...> 
wrote:
> You should be able to post the pictures to the 'Photos' section of 
the 

> group. From all indications, attachments are just not permitted on 
> posts.
> 
> 
> Regards, Bob
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:
> > These two just do NOT want to be  uploaded!!!!!!!!!!
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/30/2005 7:32:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
robert.hedan@... writes:

Email  them to me, I'll see what I can do.




Thanks, Robert!
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

leon_heller wrote:

> 
> 
> I've just used CustomPCB in Kuala Lumpur for a small run of 30 single-
> sided PCBs. They were a lot cheaper than my usual suppliers, quality 
> was excellent and I got them in about 10 days.
> 
> http://www.custompcb.com/
> 
> Leon
> 


   Damn, just looked at that.  Actually it's in a few messages from SRS group 
last year too, just didn't notice it.  10 boards for $218 with four of mine 
easily in 8x11 makes for $5.50 a board for double sided, that is not bad at all.

   Actually heck, it will be a lot more boards than that since I am shrinking to 
2 1/4" from 4".  Probably can fit 8 on the panel somehow, that'll be dirt cheap. 
  May even spring for soldermasking etc, though I don't really need it much.

   Still going to work on my lasering for instant prototyping, but it looks like 
they beat up on production pricing..

Alan

mycroft2152 wrote:
> Hi Alan,
> 
> How about a couple of extra pictures? Would help in building mine.
> 
> 1. the mounting of the screw end opposite to the motor with bearings
> 
> 2. Close up of the nuts on the screw shaft.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Myc


   I'll stick these up in the same directory shortly.

http://home.nc.rr.com/alan69/CNC/

   Ah already put them up.  Used CNC2 so they're seperate.

   Bearing is the bearing, tape made it a pretty tight press fit into the hole 
drilled in electrical box.  But the real anchor for that threaded rod is the 
coupling and motor at the other end, this bearing is only to locate the end 
properly.

   X nut is a connector nut with groves cut to fit a cut up angle bracket.  Note 
that you could just turn the bracket up vertically so it would be flat under or 
over the nut, and use a fender washer and clamp the nut like the other axis, may 
be a little simpler.  I actually just taped things together here temporarily, 
and then used a grinding wheel on the machine itself to cut these parts. 
Machine, make thyself.  I think it is the only machine cut of any sort on here, 
it should be eliminated and could easily be.  Should be a totally drill and bolt 
together kind of endeavor.

   Y nut, the motor mount was located to put the shaft and nut just under the 
frame.  Fender washer around the nut for a soft mount and clamped with a strap, 
nothing to it.  Could be easily moved to center etc, but I can only deflect the 
other side of the frame about 1/8th or 1/4 inch with noticable force, it simply 
tends to be in line for drilling etc.

   The rails are very strong, with a little more work and rearranging of things 
this could be made into a monster system.  It was plenty accurate for drilling 
and light machining as it is, so I didn't go further.

   I looked at the split system like the one Esteban posted.  Can't remember 
exactly what it was, but there was something I wanted to do with it that was 
better with a full gantry type.  But it will work fine like that, and setup 
would be a little easier than free rails.  Looks like printer rails in the pics, 
I've got 30 or 40 printer guts laying around myself, never got to them the 
drawer slides were a bit easier and accurate enough.

   Ah, there is the drawback, your lower rails have to be twice as long as what 
you want to cut with a sliding table.  The distance it can travel is minus the 
length of the table.  Mine can do 1' x 1' while only being 18" square (for the 
cutting area part, I have a bigger table with the motor mounted out of the way, 
it could be closer).  It'd take 30" or so to cut the same with a split table. 
My machine is pretty small and portable too, thought about hanging it on the 
wall.  That was it, if you start making a larger table then 2x

Alan

Alan King wrote:


> 
>    Ah, there is the drawback, your lower rails have to be twice as long as what 
> you want to cut with a sliding table.  The distance it can travel is minus the 
> length of the table.  Mine can do 1' x 1' while only being 18" square (for the 
> cutting area part, I have a bigger table with the motor mounted out of the way, 
> it could be closer).  It'd take 30" or so to cut the same with a split table. 
> My machine is pretty small and portable too, thought about hanging it on the 
> wall.  That was it, if you start making a larger table then 2x
> 


   Actually I say this, but if you support the table from only a few inches in 
the middle, it could travel basically as far.  But then it loses the stability 
of having the table supported near the corners.

Alan