Apple Logic Pro /LogicExpress Discussion

I'm planning on buying Logic Pro 9 with a couple of MOTU interfaces. If I wanted to track a live band and used a bunch of mic preamps, is it possible to do that using the mixing console functions in Logic without any latency?

I'm planning on buying Logic Pro 9 with a couple of MOTU interfaces. If I wanted to track a live band and used a bunch of mic preamps, is it possible to do that using the mixing console functions in Logic without any latency?

Tracking is fine - if you have the interface. However, laptops have 
slow RPM drives, so you might want to use a fast external disk.

But "mixing functions" are another story. If you are recording you can 
mix later. You're not mixing live and recording at the same time are 
you?

Thanks for trying to answer my question. I'm planning on getting a Mac Pro. So, the RPM drive won't be an issue for me.  What I'm really curious about is getting a single down and dirty headphone monitor mix happening for the band in Logic. I'd like to try and get away without using a traditional mixing console for monitoring purposes. Is that possible? 

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, GAmoore@... wrote:

>
> Tracking is fine - if you have the interface. However, laptops have 
> slow RPM drives, so you might want to use a fast external disk.
> 
> But "mixing functions" are another story. If you are recording you can 
> mix later. You're not mixing live and recording at the same time are 
> you?
>

Thanks for trying to answer my question. I'm planning on getting a Mac Pro. So, the RPM drive won't be an issue for me.  What I'm really curious about is getting a single down and dirty headphone monitor mix happening for the band in Logic. I'd like to try and get away without using a traditional mixing console for monitoring purposes. Is that possible? 

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, GAmoore@... wrote:

>
> Tracking is fine - if you have the interface. However, laptops have 
> slow RPM drives, so you might want to use a fast external disk.
> 
> But "mixing functions" are another story. If you are recording you can 
> mix later. You're not mixing live and recording at the same time are 
> you?
>

Hello Brian,
I am using a MOTU 24 I/O and the included CueMix Console software  
would allow you to select a combination of the inputs and route them  
to one of the outputs as a cue or headphone mix. ( I guess thats why  
they call it CueMix Console?) without any noticeable latency. The  
channels can also be controlled from a control surface, and I have  
hooked mine up with a Mackie Control successfully.

I normally track through the MOTU with a desk to control monitor  
mixes, so don't use the software much, but it is versatile and  
reliable for that purpose, even allows one of the inputs to be  
selected as a talkback channel to the cue mix, with a choice of  
latching or non-latching talkback button!

I don't know if the software works the same way with other audio  
interfaces, but I would guess it does, so I expect you could use it as  
you describe, but you would be a very brave man to use it as a mixer  
for a live performance at the same time!
-- 
Best Wishes

Steve Coates




On 21 Mar 2010, at 23:26, Brian wrote:

>
> Thanks for trying to answer my question. I'm planning on getting a  
> Mac Pro. So, the RPM drive won't be an issue for me. What I'm really  
> curious about is getting a single down and dirty headphone monitor  
> mix happening for the band in Logic. I'd like to try and get away  
> without using a traditional mixing console for monitoring purposes.  
> Is that possible?
>
> --- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, GAmoore@... wrote:
> >
> > Tracking is fine - if you have the interface. However, laptops have
> > slow RPM drives, so you might want to use a fast external disk.
> >
> > But "mixing functions" are another story. If you are recording you  
> can
> > mix later. You're not mixing live and recording at the same time are
> > you?
> >
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Short answer is yes.

Not knowing exactly what you wanna do at the live site  here is a comments.. Ok what you could do
Record them live. Go home and mix using just the screen, headphones etc and then master down to a cd for the team etc.

Doing so live would be a little more difficult  but if you get the levels right at onset then apart from any additional processing you wanna do to clean it up afterwards sure.  A "rough and ready" mix is possible.

You can make a template with a few of the std plugins etc  already in so that you can even do some groundwork in advance so all you need to do is concentrate on capturing the audio live.  The plugins could be preset with a few defaults to get things started such as High pass EQ settings etc on some obvious tracks etc.

If you are intent on buying Motu gear a Motu Traveler  might be a god option because of the  options built in and the power options.  You can daisy chain that to other hardware should you need such as additional mic or line preamps etc.  
I have a traveler and apart fro an initial (annoying) hardware glitch that was replaced under warranty I find it brilliant and very mobile.  Been faultless since it was replaced.
monitoring via headphones through the Motu is fine..  Only issue for me is it only has a single headphone socket..    If you need additional headphones a headphone splitter/amp unit is always good. Behringer and Presonus make some nice ones.

One warning if you plan on doing such recording regularly (actually I suggest any time but) get a smallish portable ish UPS to manage power glitches and unplanned outages.. You don't wanna loose any data  due to unplanned power glitches and power spikes etc.  You don't know what the stability will be like at venues and power glitches can really mess things up big time..

Just a few ideas but others may make other suggestions..

Steve


On 22/03/2010, at 12:26 PM, Brian wrote:

> 
> Thanks for trying to answer my question. I'm planning on getting a Mac Pro. So, the RPM drive won't be an issue for me. What I'm really curious about is getting a single down and dirty headphone monitor mix happening for the band in Logic. I'd like to try and get away without using a traditional mixing console for monitoring purposes. Is that possible? 
> 
> --- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, GAmoore@... wrote:
> >
> > Tracking is fine - if you have the interface. However, laptops have 
> > slow RPM drives, so you might want to use a fast external disk.
> > 
> > But "mixing functions" are another story. If you are recording you can 
> > mix later. You're not mixing live and recording at the same time are 
> > you?
> >
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, probably out of school but I couldn't not mention the Metric Halo units.  I've just got a 2d upgrade to an 8 pre 2882 and the on board processing (read zero latency, zero cpu usage, before and after sends) is mindblowing, particularly for monitoring.  I've done a 24 channel recording with 2 of these and a cheap Behringer ADA8000 for another 8 ins and it's solid as can be.  I'm not trying to sell MH and they are pretty expensive but if you haven't quite made your mind up on the interfaces they're really worth a look, if only for the AD/DA.  Made my life a lot easier, but for all I know the MOTU's are just as capable. 


Re: A Question
Posted by: "Brian" brianmc7@verizon.net   brianmc7@...
Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:26 pm (PDT)



Thanks for trying to answer my question. I'm planning on getting a Mac Pro. So, the RPM drive won't be an issue for me. What I'm really curious about is getting a single down and dirty headphone monitor mix happening for the band in Logic. I'd like to try and get away without using a traditional mixing console for monitoring purposes. Is that possible?

Brian,

   I usually use the Motu "Cue Mix" for monitoring with zero latency.   But I think even in Logic 9 if on a channel strip you click the "I" button next to the solo/mute/etc then you will be monitoring the input.

    With cue mix, after wrapping your brain around the signal flow, and set up.  It's pretty easy.  Just control-click (or is it option-click) on the "listen button" in Cue Mix.    

     One thing that I do use that you/others may not, is that I have a digital mixer hooked up as well.   And all my input channels go to a stereo pair on the mixer, and the cue tracks and click go to another stereo pair.  

      But I don't think this will be a problem for you, recording without latency.

      One trick I learned is that it's helpful when you record while monitoring the input.  the track/s can be late within the session, too far to the right as a result.  So what I do, is when I record a vocal, I will clap my hands along with the click track.  Then when I am mixing/editing, it is VERY easy to line up the track with where it ought to be.    This lateness seems to vary based on session, and general CPU load.     So even though you don't hear any latency, the computer prints what would have been latency to the track, if that makes any sense.  

       Pete

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <brianmc7@...> wrote:

>
> I'm planning on buying Logic Pro 9 with a couple of MOTU interfaces. If I wanted to track a live band and used a bunch of mic preamps, is it possible to do that using the mixing console functions in Logic without any latency?
>

>       One trick I learned is that it's helpful when you record while
> monitoring the input.  the track/s can be late within the session,
> too far to the right as a result.  So what I do, is when I record a
> vocal, I will clap my hands along with the click track.  Then when I
> am mixing/editing, it is VERY easy to line up the track with where
> it ought to be.    This lateness seems to vary based on session, and
> general CPU load.     So even though you don't hear any latency, the
> computer prints what would have been latency to the track, if that
> makes any sense.
>
>        Pete

Not really, although I'd like it to! How does clapping to the click track
help? Do you mean that you record another track with live clapping lined
up to the click track and then move the vocal track into line as you move
the clapping into line?

I've given up recording directly into Logic as I can't get over the
latency problem and my singer is giving up on me! We are using the BR1600
instead which involves a lot of messing around but doesn't have latency
issues


Andy

Yes that makes sense. I am working with a songwriter far away, and when 
she sings new lyrics, over a backing track I ask her to clap the first 
few beats so I can line up her vocal with the song in Logic. I have not 
noticed huge latency issues in recording audio in logic directly but 
midi through a USB Keyboard - directly plugged into the Mac Pro has too 
much latency. I usually go in and move everything to the left about 30 
ticks or whatever. To get a good feel to record midi, I found its 
better to use a real keyboard which makes sounds immediately, then you 
can hear yourself playing along fine - and then go and adjust all the 
notes to the left the latency factor. However, I was reading somewhere 
that these "highly accurate" midi systems are more marketing than true, 
and actually there is a fair amount of jitter - so I dont know.

If you are on blogs, forums, or bulletin boards related to music, 
please feel free to mention the Logic_Cafe at Yahoogroups or put a link 
to our page - so we can get the word out and increase membership. I 
think we are about 850 members but it would be nice to double that 
eventually. For example I am on gearslutz, and I put it in my signature 
so every post I make has a link to the Logic_Cafe.

Here is the link :
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Logic_Cafe/

Hello all,
I think I have become confused by the discussion of latency, and  
wonder whether we have different concepts of it?

If you are recording using soft synths (virtual instruments) there is  
definitely a delay between pressing a key on your keyboard, and  
hearing the synth generate a sound. This delay is proportionate to the  
buffer setting on your audio interface, and with my MOTU, if I take  
the buffer setting below 128, or get the latency below 5mS, then this  
has minimal impact on my playing. (That might be a comment on my  
playing, but lets put that to one side for a moment!) However even  
with a large buffer setting on recording or replay, the recorded MIDI  
from the keyboard is NOT delayed, and on replay, should be in time  
with your playing?

Similarly with audio, if you monitor your audio from the output of  
Logic, there will be a noticeable delay, (which I believe is due to  
delay via buffers on the way into Logic, any processing delay caused  
by compression, EQ, gating etc, and another buffer on the way out?)  
but if you track listening to the Logic click, your audio should be in  
sync with existing tracks on playback, regardless of the audio  
interface buffer settings?

True zero latency monitoring seems to be only possible via external  
hardware (mixing desk, hardware synth etc) and almost zero latency  
monitoring via dedicated software like MOTU's CueMix, and some systems  
built into audio interfaces directly?
My understanding is Logic compensates for the buffers whilst recording  
MIDI and Audio, so both Audio and MIDI input should remain pretty much  
in time on replay regardless of how much latency is in the system  
whilst recording?

Am I right?
-- 
Best Wishes

Steve Coates




On 29 Mar 2010, at 16:59, GAmoore@... wrote:

> Yes that makes sense. I am working with a songwriter far away, and  
> when
> she sings new lyrics, over a backing track I ask her to clap the first
> few beats so I can line up her vocal with the song in Logic. I have  
> not
> noticed huge latency issues in recording audio in logic directly but
> midi through a USB Keyboard - directly plugged into the Mac Pro has  
> too
> much latency. I usually go in and move everything to the left about 30
> ticks or whatever. To get a good feel to record midi, I found its
> better to use a real keyboard which makes sounds immediately, then you
> can hear yourself playing along fine - and then go and adjust all the
> notes to the left the latency factor. However, I was reading somewhere
> that these "highly accurate" midi systems are more marketing than  
> true,
> and actually there is a fair amount of jitter - so I dont know.
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 29 Mar 2010, at 16:59, GAmoore@... wrote:

> . I have not
> noticed huge latency issues in recording audio in logic directly but
> midi through a USB Keyboard - directly plugged into the Mac Pro has  
> too
> much latency. I usually go in and move everything to the left about 30
> ticks or whatever.
>
Am I just imagining that the speed of the recorded audio seems to vary  
compared to the track the singer is singing along to? When I try to  
record a vocal, the rest of the tracks seem to be playing perfectly in  
time, as they always do. Unless latency somehow varies in amount  
during the course of the recording, all I have to do is to nudge the  
vocal to the correct starting position and it should all fit in  
perfectly, shouldn't it?

And yet, when I play the audio back with just a click track the audio  
seems to be slightly off the beat throughout.


> To get a good feel to record midi, I found its
> better to use a real keyboard which makes sounds immediately, then you
> can hear yourself playing along fine - and then go and adjust all the
> notes to the left the latency factor. However, I was reading somewhere
> that these "highly accurate" midi systems are more marketing than  
> true,
> and actually there is a fair amount of jitter - so I dont know.
>
I have an M Audio keyboard with a USB adapter into my MacPro and I am  
not aware of any latency issues, as such. In fact I don't possess a  
real instrument so most of my input is done with this keyboard. Every  
so often during the course of recording a song I stick a mastering  
channel strip at the end of the Mixer, to get an idea of how the song  
is going. If I forget to take that off again before recording another  
track, then you do definitely find that the resulting recording is all  
over the place. But other than that, you shouldn't really have the  
problem you are describing (well, unless I am totally missing the  
point, which as a novice I might be).

It is very easy to blame the recording when the input is at fault. I'm  
a pretty good keyboard player but, like many of us, counting isn't my  
strongest point and without a click track or rhythm behind me no  
amount of counting aloud is going to stop me wavering off the beat.

But if you have the piano roll showing when you record midi, and chose  
a level of magnification so that the roll moves in a way that you can  
see each new note and the bars, then you will soon see whether or not  
you are playing on the beat, behind it, or in front of it.

PLEASE - if I have got the wrong end of the stick here (since I seem  
to be finding exactly the opposite of someone I look upon as an  
expert) then do correct me. I wouldn't want to mislead anyone.

Andy

>
>

On 30/03/2010, at 9:37 AM, Andy Brook wrote:

> 
> On 29 Mar 2010, at 16:59, GAmoore@... wrote:
> 
>> . I have not
>> noticed huge latency issues in recording audio in logic directly but
>> midi through a USB Keyboard - directly plugged into the Mac Pro has  
>> too
>> much latency. I usually go in and move everything to the left about 30
>> ticks or whatever.
>> 
> Am I just imagining that the speed of the recorded audio seems to vary  
> compared to the track the singer is singing along to? When I try to  
> record a vocal, the rest of the tracks seem to be playing perfectly in  
> time, as they always do. Unless latency somehow varies in amount  
> during the course of the recording, all I have to do is to nudge the  
> vocal to the correct starting position and it should all fit in  
> perfectly, shouldn't it?
> 
> And yet, when I play the audio back with just a click track the audio  
> seems to be slightly off the beat throughout.
> 

<snipped>

A couple of evenings ago I recorded a singer do 4 vocal tracks.. It was an a cappella recording.    He sang all 4 parts.
The 4 tracks were obviously all in harmony with each other.

He first laid down the melody track - which I made sure started at the beginning of the region  - and then we used that as the cue for him to sing the other parts "against".
I noticed that some were a nadge out of sync or  a nadge behind the beat but as he was only using the melody as the cue I didn't have to worry too much.  The sync issue may have simply been him not quite being on the spot when listening to the cue. i.e. he was waiting to hear the cue before singing his note if you like  .. A perception or insecurity thing by him  maybe??  Dunno.   The sync issue was only minor and barely audible but  annoying for me because I was looking for it.

So I just went in using the Logic 9 flex edit features and realigned all the singing on the beat and to each other etc. using the Melody as the  "master" to work from.
Only took me a few minutes (maybe 1/4 hour)

I didn't notice a recording speed issue just a sync problem with the cue track/beat.

Steve

There is an easy way to test what you are fearing about the audio. Just 
play back your song through the monitors, and then record with a mic so 
it picks up the speaker output. Then play the tracks - the old and new 
together later. Are they spot on? Is there some flanging or comb 
filtering? You should be able to hear the latency. You can also look at 
the wave forms. It would be best to start with a "four on the floor" 
kick drum intro - then look at the bounced audio and the newly recorded 
room mic audio. You can see where the transients hit and see if the 
latency is uniform or now, and how much it is. Once computed, hopefully 
you can just nudge the audio on future recordings by that same amount 
without looking.


Regarding MIDI, I am using an m-audio kb, plugged directly into the 
back of a mac pro. I do have a bunch of other USB devices going through 
a 1:4 box - the computer keyboard, dongles, etc. But I hear terrible 
latency each and every time. I have my latency set in Logic to 512 
samples which should be pretty small. But I hear it and it messes me 
up. But if I play something that produces its own sounds then I can get 
into it. I can deal with a delay but not terrible performances with no 
feel.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Brook <bbgrove@...>
To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Mar 29, 2010 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: A Question


On 29 Mar 2010, at 16:59, GAmoore@... wrote:

> . I have not
> noticed huge latency issues in recording audio in logic directly but
> midi through a USB Keyboard - directly plugged into the Mac Pro has
> too
> much latency. I usually go in and move everything to the left about 30
> ticks or whatever.
>
Am I just imagining that the speed of the recorded audio seems to vary
compared to the track the singer is singing along to? When I try to
record a vocal, the rest of the tracks seem to be playing perfectly in
time, as they always do. Unless latency somehow varies in amount
during the course of the recording, all I have to do is to nudge the
vocal to the correct starting position and it should all fit in
perfectly, shouldn't it?

And yet, when I play the audio back with just a click track the audio
seems to be slightly off the beat throughout.


> To get a good feel to record midi, I found its
> better to use a real keyboard which makes sounds immediately, then you
> can hear yourself playing along fine - and then go and adjust all the
> notes to the left the latency factor. However, I was reading somewhere
> that these "highly accurate" midi systems are more marketing than
> true,
> and actually there is a fair amount of jitter - so I dont know.
>
I have an M Audio keyboard with a USB adapter into my MacPro and I am
not aware of any latency issues, as such. In fact I don't possess a
real instrument so most of my input is done with this keyboard. Every
so often during the course of recording a song I stick a mastering
channel strip at the end of the Mixer, to get an idea of how the song
is going. If I forget to take that off again before recording another
track, then you do definitely find that the resulting recording is all
over the place. But other than that, you shouldn't really have the
problem you are describing (well, unless I am totally missing the
point, which as a novice I might be).

It is very easy to blame the recording when the input is at fault. I'm
a pretty good keyboard player but, like many of us, counting isn't my
strongest point and without a click track or rhythm behind me no
amount of counting aloud is going to stop me wavering off the beat.

But if you have the piano roll showing when you record midi, and chose
a level of magnification so that the roll moves in a way that you can
see each new note and the bars, then you will soon see whether or not
you are playing on the beat, behind it, or in front of it.

PLEASE - if I have got the wrong end of the stick here (since I seem
to be finding exactly the opposite of someone I look upon as an
expert) then do correct me. I wouldn't want to mislead anyone.

Andy

>
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

>
> A couple of evenings ago I recorded a singer do 4 vocal tracks.. It  
> was an a cappella recording. He sang all 4 parts.
> The 4 tracks were obviously all in harmony with each other.
>
> He first laid down the melody track - which I made sure started at  
> the beginning of the region - and then we used that as the cue for  
> him to sing the other parts "against".
> I noticed that some were a nadge out of sync or a nadge behind the  
> beat but as he was only using the melody as the cue I didn't have to  
> worry too much. The sync issue may have simply been him not quite  
> being on the spot when listening to the cue. i.e. he was waiting to  
> hear the cue before singing his note if you like .. A perception or  
> insecurity thing by him maybe?? Dunno. The sync issue was only minor  
> and barely audible but annoying for me because I was looking for it.
>
That would be exactly what was happening - if you listen for the beat  
you will sing or play behind it. Thats why there are conductors. The  
singer I work with absolutely hates to be conducted, but it really  
does help.... if you can beat time, of course

Andy B

IT no different than playing in a live band. You hear the beats and 
your mind anticipates them. This is especially true for a guitarist. 
You have to start hitting a chord dozens of milliseconds before the 
beat so the crunch hits on cue.

Andy,

Gregory pretty much clarified what I was trying to say.

Start the recorder, with some kind of time reference (click, drums, etc) a few bars early and clap along before the vocal part enters.    Make note of which counts were particularly "nailed" along with the metronome and line up those transients to the grid in Logic after the recording.  

Interesting that some people nudge MIDI regions back to the left.   I don't do that, I just quantize by percent (60-90%).  

Pete

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, bbgrove@... wrote:

>
> 
> >       One trick I learned is that it's helpful when you record while
> > monitoring the input.  the track/s can be late within the session,
> > too far to the right as a result.  So what I do, is when I record a
> > vocal, I will clap my hands along with the click track.  Then when I
> > am mixing/editing, it is VERY easy to line up the track with where
> > it ought to be.    This lateness seems to vary based on session, and
> > general CPU load.     So even though you don't hear any latency, the
> > computer prints what would have been latency to the track, if that
> > makes any sense.
> >
> >        Pete
> 
> Not really, although I'd like it to! How does clapping to the click track
> help? Do you mean that you record another track with live clapping lined
> up to the click track and then move the vocal track into line as you move
> the clapping into line?
> 
> I've given up recording directly into Logic as I can't get over the
> latency problem and my singer is giving up on me! We are using the BR1600
> instead which involves a lot of messing around but doesn't have latency
> issues
> 
> 
> Andy
>

Yeah thats a good additional point - is that some beats you flub and 
some you hit right on - so take a mental note of which ones you hit. 
What I like to do is to hit the notes in a pattern of four in a square 
so I can see which beat automatically rather than counting or thinking.

All midi has delays. Its designed to not be electrically coupled so 
there is an optical interface of some sort. Say that its 20 
milliseconds (1/500 of a second). Maybe my math is wrong here, but say 
you have a tempo of 120 bpm, then thats two beats per second. If logic 
is 960 ticks per quarter note, thats 1920 ticks that occur in that 
second. So each tick is 1/1920 or .52 millseconds each. So 20 ms / .52 
= 40 ticks. In other words, even if you play right on the beat, the 
midi delay (if we assume 20ms) is 40 ticks. This is why its a good idea 
to slide the matrix notes to the left 40 ticks - just to bring them to 
where they should have been. Then use the quantize to adjust the feel 
of the playing.

Greg

Perhaps something to add. Quoting from http://www.digitalprosound.com/2001/01_jan/features/midi2001-3.htm 

"He found the latency in the USB interfaces to be between seven and eight milliseconds, about three times that of the classic interfaces. This is not in itself an insurmountable problem, because musicians adjust to small latencies in sound sources quite well—a bass player and a lead guitarist standing seven feet away from each other usually have no trouble staying together."

This would suggest non USB latency to be less than 3 msec and USB midi latency to be less than 9. However as a player you compensate. Note the speed of sound is approximately 1000 feet per second. So, an acoustic guitarist hears what he is playing about 2 msec direct and possibly 10-20 msec reflected (in a small room) after what he plays.Two players standing 10 feet apart have a 10msec latency between them.

Regarding singer latency, I may be wrong here but it rather sounds like you may getting the input and output signals mixed up. Logic adjusts for audio latency when recording.  Is the record channel fader down?  If you wish to here this just bring the fader up on on a record channel while you are recording. For a full explanation of Logic Audio Latency Compensation see http://www.logic-users-group.com/index.php?q=record_latency.html  

Good luck,
Gil 

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, GAmoore@... wrote:

>
> Yeah thats a good additional point - is that some beats you flub and 
> some you hit right on - so take a mental note of which ones you hit. 
> What I like to do is to hit the notes in a pattern of four in a square 
> so I can see which beat automatically rather than counting or thinking.
> 
> All midi has delays. Its designed to not be electrically coupled so 
> there is an optical interface of some sort. Say that its 20 
> milliseconds (1/500 of a second). Maybe my math is wrong here, but say 
> you have a tempo of 120 bpm, then thats two beats per second. If logic 
> is 960 ticks per quarter note, thats 1920 ticks that occur in that 
> second. So each tick is 1/1920 or .52 millseconds each. So 20 ms / .52 
> = 40 ticks. In other words, even if you play right on the beat, the 
> midi delay (if we assume 20ms) is 40 ticks. This is why its a good idea 
> to slide the matrix notes to the left 40 ticks - just to bring them to 
> where they should have been. Then use the quantize to adjust the feel 
> of the playing.
> 
> Greg
>

> Andy,
>
> Gregory pretty much clarified what I was trying to say.
>
> Start the recorder, with some kind of time reference (click, drums, etc) a
> few bars early and clap along before the vocal part enters.    Make note
> of which counts were particularly "nailed" along with the metronome and
> line up those transients to the grid in Logic after the recording.

I'll try that then. It must just be either my perception of the recording
speeding up and slowing down, or the singer doing so. It will make a big
difference to get that sorted out.


> Interesting that some people nudge MIDI regions back to the left.   I
> don't do that, I just quantize by percent (60-90%).

Depends what you are recording in midi, but someone said it can sound
lifeless, and quantising is one way of sucking the life out of a midi
recording :-)

Andy B

If you go to the audio preferences in Logic, you can set the latency in 
samples and it gives the corresponding millisecond delay. 1024 buffer 
size gives 46 ms delay latency for audio recording. I am not sure if 
that is just into the computer, or roundtrip but if you are recording 
yourself you always mute the audio track on Logic and find some way to 
feedback the original signal to your headphones to mix it in with what 
you are hearing in logic (the beats and backing tracks - not what you 
are recording). So if its roundtrip that would be 92 ms. I think you 
can hear delays as short as 10 ms. And I find that 20 ms delays mess me 
up in playing a midi keyboard where it feels slow.

I would say that anything above the 128 setting affects you playing seriously but it's still possible but not great to get by with 256, 512 and above forget it.
What also matters is that some people play by ear and adapt to the latency which in computer terms is bad because after the compensation you will sound like you were drunk while recording. On the other hand if you play "without ears" you can get by with rather large buffersettings.
Personally I still have a G5 (come on Apple, how hard can it be to renew the lineup after 13 months) and I can't wait to get a new setup where I can get down to 64 or maybe even 32, I play way too much by ear for my own good.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: GAmoore@... 
  To: Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 8:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: A Question


    
  If you go to the audio preferences in Logic, you can set the latency in 
  samples and it gives the corresponding millisecond delay. 1024 buffer 
  size gives 46 ms delay latency for audio recording. I am not sure if 
  that is just into the computer, or roundtrip but if you are recording 
  yourself you always mute the audio track on Logic and find some way to 
  feedback the original signal to your headphones to mix it in with what 
  you are hearing in logic (the beats and backing tracks - not what you 
  are recording). So if its roundtrip that would be 92 ms. I think you 
  can hear delays as short as 10 ms. And I find that 20 ms delays mess me 
  up in playing a midi keyboard where it feels slow.



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 30 Mar 2010, at 19:34, GAmoore@... wrote:

> . I am not sure if
> that is just into the computer, or roundtrip but if you are recording
> yourself you always mute the audio track on Logic and find some way to
> feedback the original signal to your headphones to mix it in with what
> you are hearing in logic (the beats and backing tracks - not what you
> are recording).
>
That is definitely where I am going wrong. And that also makes perfect  
sense as to why the singer seems to be slowing down all the time, as  
she is hearing herself slightly delayed.

Andy B

I still keep an old Lexicon reverb just for tracking. I have logic 
going into a mixer, and then the mic going directly into the a/d but I 
take another output from the preamp into the mixer too and route it 
thorugh the reverb. then the singer listens to headphones attached to 
the mixer - getting a blend of logic and himself/herself. there is 
absolutely no delay for the singer to hear himself that way.

Roll on USB3 and gear with USB 3 interfaces.
USB3 is out there and is about 10 times faster than USB2 so that might also help Just a nadge as too much stuff on USB2 can slow the whole bus down and so add latency due to USB "traffic jambs"

Just another thing to consider.


On 31/03/2010, at 5:58 AM, gil_gillian wrote:

> Perhaps something to add. Quoting from http://www.digitalprosound.com/2001/01_jan/features/midi2001-3.htm 
> 
> "He found the latency in the USB interfaces to be between seven and eight milliseconds, about three times that of the classic interfaces. This is not in itself an insurmountable problem, because musicians adjust to small latencies in sound sources quite well�a bass player and a lead guitarist standing seven feet away from each other usually have no trouble staying together."
> 
> This would suggest non USB latency to be less than 3 msec and USB midi latency to be less than 9. However as a player you compensate. Note the speed of sound is approximately 1000 feet per second. So, an acoustic guitarist hears what he is playing about 2 msec direct and possibly 10-20 msec reflected (in a small room) after what he plays.Two players standing 10 feet apart have a 10msec latency between them.
> 
> Regarding singer latency, I may be wrong here but it rather sounds like you may getting the input and output signals mixed up. Logic adjusts for audio latency when recording. Is the record channel fader down? If you wish to here this just bring the fader up on on a record channel while you are recording. For a full explanation of Logic Audio Latency Compensation see http://www.logic-users-group.com/index.php?q=record_latency.html 
> 
> Good luck,
> Gil 
> 
> --- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, GAmoore@... wrote:
> >
> > Yeah thats a good additional point - is that some beats you flub and 
> > some you hit right on - so take a mental note of which ones you hit. 
> > What I like to do is to hit the notes in a pattern of four in a square 
> > so I can see which beat automatically rather than counting or thinking.
> > 
> > All midi has delays. Its designed to not be electrically coupled so 
> > there is an optical interface of some sort. Say that its 20 
> > milliseconds (1/500 of a second). Maybe my math is wrong here, but say 
> > you have a tempo of 120 bpm, then thats two beats per second. If logic 
> > is 960 ticks per quarter note, thats 1920 ticks that occur in that 
> > second. So each tick is 1/1920 or .52 millseconds each. So 20 ms / .52 
> > = 40 ticks. In other words, even if you play right on the beat, the 
> > midi delay (if we assume 20ms) is 40 ticks. This is why its a good idea 
> > to slide the matrix notes to the left 40 ticks - just to bring them to 
> > where they should have been. Then use the quantize to adjust the feel 
> > of the playing.
> > 
> > Greg
> >
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ha ha although it will just mean I can screw things up 10 x faster.. ha ha ha..

S.

On 31/03/2010, at 10:34 AM, Steve Currington wrote:

> Roll on USB3 and gear with USB 3 interfaces.
> USB3 is out there and is about 10 times faster than USB2 so that might also help Just a nadge as too much stuff on USB2 can slow the whole bus down and so add latency due to USB "traffic jambs"
> 
> Just another thing to consider.
> 
> 
> On 31/03/2010, at 5:58 AM, gil_gillian wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps something to add. Quoting from http://www.digitalprosound.com/2001/01_jan/features/midi2001-3.htm 
>> 
>> "He found the latency in the USB interfaces to be between seven and eight milliseconds, about three times that of the classic interfaces. This is not in itself an insurmountable problem, because musicians adjust to small latencies in sound sources quite well˜a bass player and a lead guitarist standing seven feet away from each other usually have no trouble staying together."
>> 
>> This would suggest non USB latency to be less than 3 msec and USB midi latency to be less than 9. However as a player you compensate. Note the speed of sound is approximately 1000 feet per second. So, an acoustic guitarist hears what he is playing about 2 msec direct and possibly 10-20 msec reflected (in a small room) after what he plays.Two players standing 10 feet apart have a 10msec latency between them.
>> 
>> Regarding singer latency, I may be wrong here but it rather sounds like you may getting the input and output signals mixed up. Logic adjusts for audio latency when recording. Is the record channel fader down? If you wish to here this just bring the fader up on on a record channel while you are recording. For a full explanation of Logic Audio Latency Compensation see http://www.logic-users-group.com/index.php?q=record_latency.html 
>> 
>> Good luck,
>> Gil 
>> 
>> --- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, GAmoore@... wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yeah thats a good additional point - is that some beats you flub and 
>>> some you hit right on - so take a mental note of which ones you hit. 
>>> What I like to do is to hit the notes in a pattern of four in a square 
>>> so I can see which beat automatically rather than counting or thinking.
>>> 
>>> All midi has delays. Its designed to not be electrically coupled so 
>>> there is an optical interface of some sort. Say that its 20 
>>> milliseconds (1/500 of a second). Maybe my math is wrong here, but say 
>>> you have a tempo of 120 bpm, then thats two beats per second. If logic 
>>> is 960 ticks per quarter note, thats 1920 ticks that occur in that 
>>> second. So each tick is 1/1920 or .52 millseconds each. So 20 ms / .52 
>>> = 40 ticks. In other words, even if you play right on the beat, the 
>>> midi delay (if we assume 20ms) is 40 ticks. This is why its a good idea 
>>> to slide the matrix notes to the left 40 ticks - just to bring them to 
>>> where they should have been. Then use the quantize to adjust the feel 
>>> of the playing.
>>> 
>>> Greg
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:37:58 +1300, Steve Currington wrote:

Here is hoping that USB3 has more of the advantages that Firewire had 
over USB2 (latency and sheer data throughput).
I also hope that USB3 has better controls for cheapskate companies 
putting out devices with the same ID (which an inordinate quantity of 
cheap enclosures do) so when you put two external drives on the bus 
things go haywire.

W.

> ha ha although it will just mean I can screw things up 10 x faster.. 
> ha ha ha..
> 
> S.
> On 31/03/2010, at 10:34 AM, Steve Currington wrote:
> 
>> Roll on USB3 and gear with USB 3 interfaces.
>> USB3 is out there and is about 10 times faster than USB2 so that 
>> might also help Just a nadge as too much stuff on USB2 can slow the 
>> whole bus down and so add latency due to USB "traffic jambs"
>> 
>> Just another thing to consider.
>> 
>> 
>> On 31/03/2010, at 5:58 AM, gil_gillian wrote:
>> 
>>> Perhaps something to add. Quoting from 
>>> http://www.digitalprosound.com/2001/01_jan/features/midi2001-3.htm 
>>> 
>>> "He found the latency in the USB interfaces to be between seven and 
>>> eight milliseconds, about three times that of the classic 
>>> interfaces. This is not in itself an insurmountable problem, 
>>> because musicians adjust to small latencies in sound sources quite 
>>> well˜a bass player and a lead guitarist standing seven feet away 
>>> from each other usually have no trouble staying together."
>>> 
>>> This would suggest non USB latency to be less than 3 msec and USB 
>>> midi latency to be less than 9. However as a player you compensate. 
>>> Note the speed of sound is approximately 1000 feet per second. So, 
>>> an acoustic guitarist hears what he is playing about 2 msec direct 
>>> and possibly 10-20 msec reflected (in a small room) after what he 
>>> plays.Two players standing 10 feet apart have a 10msec latency 
>>> between them.
>>> 
>>> Regarding singer latency, I may be wrong here but it rather sounds 
>>> like you may getting the input and output signals mixed up. Logic 
>>> adjusts for audio latency when recording. Is the record channel 
>>> fader down? If you wish to here this just bring the fader up on on 
>>> a record channel while you are recording. For a full explanation of 
>>> Logic Audio Latency Compensation see 
>>> http://www.logic-users-group.com/index.php?q=record_latency.html 
>>> 
>>> Good luck,
>>> Gil 
>>> 
>>> --- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, GAmoore@... wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah thats a good additional point - is that some beats you flub and 
>>>> some you hit right on - so take a mental note of which ones you hit. 
>>>> What I like to do is to hit the notes in a pattern of four in a square 
>>>> so I can see which beat automatically rather than counting or thinking.
>>>> 
>>>> All midi has delays. Its designed to not be electrically coupled so 
>>>> there is an optical interface of some sort. Say that its 20 
>>>> milliseconds (1/500 of a second). Maybe my math is wrong here, but say 
>>>> you have a tempo of 120 bpm, then thats two beats per second. If logic 
>>>> is 960 ticks per quarter note, thats 1920 ticks that occur in that 
>>>> second. So each tick is 1/1920 or .52 millseconds each. So 20 ms / .52 
>>>> = 40 ticks. In other words, even if you play right on the beat, the 
>>>> midi delay (if we assume 20ms) is 40 ticks. This is why its a good idea 
>>>> to slide the matrix notes to the left 40 ticks - just to bring them to 
>>>> where they should have been. Then use the quantize to adjust the feel 
>>>> of the playing.
>>>> 
>>>> Greg
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------
>> 
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>