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OT (kinda) recording live

OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-17 by Michael Tuminello

Hi all -

I'm looking for info on options for recording a (my) rock band.  Last 
time around it was done in a studio, with bass + guitars direct, drums 
recorded in the room, and scratch vocals done quietly, with everyone 
listening on headphones while playing.  I'm concerned that recording 
this way sucked a good amount of energy out of the overall recording, 
and so I'd like to try recording in the room, micing amps, etc.  
basically I'm looking for information on the range of recording options 
from these 2 extremes (everything direct vs everything live).   
wondering what effective ways maximize the live feel while recording, 
while minimizing the bleed from recording everything in one room.

I'm also in NYC, in the event anyone knows of a not-too-pricey studio 
here that has a good setup.

Thanks -

Michael

PS:  last album is at www.cdbaby.com/prankstar if anyone is curious...

Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-19 by Randy Hiatt

I like to do this as well.... all direct but all live.  It's the live feel you want, going 
direct only helps the recording/isolation without hurting the performance with  
sterile feeling overdubs.  .....Then you do overdubs and if it works you'll know 
it.  The best take wins in my book.

rh



--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, Michael Tuminello <mt@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Hi all -
> 
> I'm looking for info on options for recording a (my) rock band.  Last 
> time around it was done in a studio, with bass + guitars direct, drums 
> recorded in the room, and scratch vocals done quietly, with everyone 
> listening on headphones while playing.  I'm concerned that recording 
> this way sucked a good amount of energy out of the overall recording, 
> and so I'd like to try recording in the room, micing amps, etc.  
> basically I'm looking for information on the range of recording options 
> from these 2 extremes (everything direct vs everything live).   
> wondering what effective ways maximize the live feel while recording, 
> while minimizing the bleed from recording everything in one room.
> 
> I'm also in NYC, in the event anyone knows of a not-too-pricey studio 
> here that has a good setup.
> 
> Thanks -
> 
> Michael
> 
> PS:  last album is at www.cdbaby.com/prankstar if anyone is curious...

Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-19 by GAmoore@aol.com

i go through this process to record a guitar based song

1. make a quick rough recording with acoustic guitar with the feel I want
2. analyze in logic and get the tempo and perhaps tempo changes, and occasional important beats that may fall at some particular place
3. get a loop or beat that will go with it, and get it at the right tempo
4. make a good recording over the loop, discarding the original scratch recording.

Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-19 by Michael Tuminello

thanks for responding.

so what process do you use?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 18, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Randy Hiatt wrote:

>
>
> I like to do this as well.... all direct but all live.  It's the live 
> feel you want, going
> direct only helps the recording/isolation without hurting the 
> performance with
> sterile feeling overdubs.  .....Then you do overdubs and if it works 
> you'll know
> it.  The best take wins in my book.
>
> rh
>

Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-19 by Michael Tuminello

thanks for the info.  I'm particularly interested in the experience of 
recording a band if anyone has any input.  looking for either effective 
ways to eliminate bleed from different instruments when recording live, 
or effective ways to generate live feel/energy when recording direct.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 18, 2005, at 11:09 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:

> i go through this process to record a guitar based song
>
>  1. make a quick rough recording with acoustic guitar with the feel I 
> want
>  2. analyze in logic and get the tempo and perhaps tempo changes, and 
> occasional important beats that may fall at some particular place
>  3. get a loop or beat that will go with it, and get it at the right 
> tempo
>  4. make a good recording over the loop, discarding the original 
> scratch recording.
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> 	• 	To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Logic_Cafe/
>  
> 	• 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Logic_Cafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> 	• 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service.
>
>

Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-19 by GAmoore@aol.com


In a message dated 1/18/05 10:38:32 PM, mt@... writes:


thanks for the info. I'm particularly interested in the experience of
recording a band if anyone has any input. looking for either effective
ways to eliminate bleed from different instruments when recording live,
or effective ways to generate live feel/energy when recording direct.


Ideally you would have a huge studio with sound baffles to divide the players, then you try to capture the vibe without the crowd and colored lights. If you play onstage its hard to keep the things separate other than close micing. Or you could do a hybrid - record the overall live mix. Then individually add tracks of each instrument and voice, and then perhaps take the original mix out or turn it down low.

Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-19 by Michael Tuminello

to what extent can you expect to separate drums with a situation like 
this (large room with baffles)?

thanks!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 19, 2005, at 3:04 AM, GAmoore@aol.com wrote:

>
>  In a message dated 1/18/05 10:38:32 PM, mt@motiontek.com writes:
>
>
>
> thanks for the info.  I'm particularly interested in the experience of
>  recording a band if anyone has any input.  looking for either 
> effective
>  ways to eliminate bleed from different instruments when recording 
> live,
>  or effective ways to generate live feel/energy when recording direct.
>
>
>
>  Ideally you would have a huge studio with sound baffles to divide the 
> players, then you try to capture the vibe without the crowd and 
> colored lights. If you play onstage its hard to keep the things 
> separate other than close micing. Or you could do a hybrid - record 
> the overall live mix. Then individually add tracks of each instrument 
> and voice, and then perhaps take the original mix out or turn it down 
> low.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> 	• 	To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Logic_Cafe/
>  
> 	• 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Logic_Cafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> 	• 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> Service.
>
>

Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-19 by Randy Hiatt

Record all players direct, guitars thru their processors, midi keys, midi drums 
as midi data, voc thru mic pre's.  If using acoustic guit/mic/pickup it has no 
problem with audio bleeds (unless vocs are going).  Everyone is in phones, 
we play/we record.  Then we add over dubs as needed, discarding any orig 
trks we think deserve it.  Edit midi and mix into audio....  I seldom throw trks 
away, I often double them as this adds a sonic quality and delay effect I prefer 
over typical delay effects.

rh



--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, Michael Tuminello <mt@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> thanks for responding.
> 
> so what process do you use?
> 
> 
> On Jan 18, 2005, at 7:20 PM, Randy Hiatt wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > I like to do this as well.... all direct but all live.  It's the live 
> > feel you want, going
> > direct only helps the recording/isolation without hurting the 
> > performance with
> > sterile feeling overdubs.  .....Then you do overdubs and if it works 
> > you'll know
> > it.  The best take wins in my book.
> >
> > rh
> >

Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-19 by Randy Hiatt

close mic the drums and add a few overheads, use a noise gate to supress 
bleed thru.

rh




--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, Michael Tuminello <mt@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> to what extent can you expect to separate drums with a situation like 
> this (large room with baffles)?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 3:04 AM, GAmoore@a... wrote:
> 
> >
> >  In a message dated 1/18/05 10:38:32 PM, mt@m... writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > thanks for the info.  I'm particularly interested in the experience of
> >  recording a band if anyone has any input.  looking for either 
> > effective
> >  ways to eliminate bleed from different instruments when recording 
> > live,
> >  or effective ways to generate live feel/energy when recording direct.
> >
> >
> >
> >  Ideally you would have a huge studio with sound baffles to divide the 
> > players, then you try to capture the vibe without the crowd and 
> > colored lights. If you play onstage its hard to keep the things 
> > separate other than close micing. Or you could do a hybrid - record 
> > the overall live mix. Then individually add tracks of each instrument 
> > and voice, and then perhaps take the original mix out or turn it down 
> > low.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > 	• 	To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Logic_Cafe/
> >  
> > 	• 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Logic_Cafe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >  
> > 	• 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
> > Service.
> >
> >

Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-20 by Michael Tuminello

thanks for the input - so what do you do about vocals?  record scratch 
tracks low enough not to bleed, but loud enough for everyone to hear, 
or play the whole thing through without vox and add them afterwards?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 19, 2005, at 6:57 PM, Randy Hiatt wrote:

>
>
> Record all players direct, guitars thru their processors, midi keys, 
> midi drums
> as midi data, voc thru mic pre's.  If using acoustic guit/mic/pickup 
> it has no
> problem with audio bleeds (unless vocs are going).  Everyone is in 
> phones,
> we play/we record.  Then we add over dubs as needed, discarding any 
> orig
> trks we think deserve it.  Edit midi and mix into audio....  I seldom 
> throw trks
> away, I often double them as this adds a sonic quality and delay 
> effect I prefer
> over typical delay effects.
>
> rh
>

Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-20 by GAmoore@aol.com


In a message dated 1/19/05 4:22:37 PM, mt@... writes:


thanks for the input - so what do you do about vocals? record scratch
tracks low enough not to bleed, but loud enough for everyone to hear,
or play the whole thing through without vox and add them afterwards?


Thats why they have isolation booths in the big studios. They sell them in the back of some of the magazines - or the poor man's approach is put the band in the garage and run a cable into the house, for the singer to sing with headphones.

Regarding the noise gate for recording the drums, it doesn't prevent bleed through, it just makes it less obvious on passages where there are instruments but no drums. However, if you set the noise gate wrong, it could easily cut off the end of cymbal rings at the end of songs and such. So I would apply a noise gate AFTER recording using Logic's noise gate.

Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-20 by dennis gunn

On Jan 20, 2005, at 3:35 PM, GAmoore@... wrote:

>
>
>
>
> thanks for the input - so what do you do about vocals?  record scratch
>  tracks low enough not to bleed, but loud enough for everyone to hear,
>  or play the whole thing through without vox and add them afterwards?
>
>
>
>  Thats why they have isolation booths in the big studios. They sell 
> them in the back of some of the magazines - or the poor man's approach 
> is put the band in the garage and run a cable into the house, for the 
> singer to sing with headphones.
>
>  Regarding the noise gate for recording the drums, it doesn't prevent 
> bleed through, it just makes it less obvious on passages where there 
> are instruments but no drums. However, if you set the noise gate 
> wrong, it could easily cut off the end of cymbal rings at the end of 
> songs and such. So I would apply a noise gate AFTER recording using 
> Logic's noise gate.

Beyond that gating drums is just kind of a sucking sound IMO.

I have recorded bands in my little room isolating everything but the 
drums and vocals and having the vocalist right in the room doing a 
scratch vocal when everyone was doing their take.  After this I did a 
working rough mix while waiting for the "real" vocal. That would go on 
later.  The thing I found while mixing was that the processing I did to 
the vocal mic made the drums sound beautiful and if I gated the vocal 
mic so that there was no bleed into it during the parts were the 
vocalist was not singing, the drums sounded quite limp and lifeless 
until the vocal came back in.

For this reason in my little studio I have an isolation booth for 
electric guitars and I may have all the players in the same room as the 
drums but I do not have anything that is loud enough to matter in the 
same room as the drums and I distant mic the drums in addition to all 
the near mics.

Of course one could say that I could just mix the close mics of the 
drums and then slap a good convolution reverb on the whole mix, but 
some how it just does not quite amount to the same thing as having a 
distant mic.

Re: [Logic_Cafe] Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-20 by GAmoore@aol.com


In a message dated 1/19/05 11:39:43 PM, dennis@... writes:

Of course one could say that I could just mix the close mics of the
drums and then slap a good convolution reverb on the whole mix, but
some how it just does not quite amount to the same thing as having a
distant mic.



You can also do the close micing thing, then play the mix through your monitors, and re-record the sound in the room back into Logic - and then do some delay compenation and turn it down in the mix.

Re: Re: Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-21 by Nick Batzdorf

From: GAmoore@...

>Regarding the noise gate for recording the drums, it doesn't prevent bleed
>through, it just makes it less obvious on passages where there are instruments
>but no drums. However, if you set the noise gate wrong, it could 
>easily cut off
>the end of cymbal rings at the end of songs and such. So I would apply a
>noise gate AFTER recording using Logic's noise gate.

Or use Strip Silence - if you even need to do that. As long as your 
mics are close enough, you should have enough isolation for control 
and enough bleed to make the drums sound like they're part of the 
same kit.

And I agree, I can't think of any reason to track with a noise gate.
-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434

Re: OT (kinda) recording live

2005-01-22 by Randy Hiatt

Do the vocs live and hot expecting to re-cut them later (if need be).  Because of the bleed 
thru I get with all of us in one rec room my vocs suffer.

rh

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, Michael Tuminello <mt@m...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> thanks for the input - so what do you do about vocals?  record scratch 
> tracks low enough not to bleed, but loud enough for everyone to hear, 
> or play the whole thing through without vox and add them afterwards?
> 
> 
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 6:57 PM, Randy Hiatt wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Record all players direct, guitars thru their processors, midi keys, 
> > midi drums
> > as midi data, voc thru mic pre's.  If using acoustic guit/mic/pickup 
> > it has no
> > problem with audio bleeds (unless vocs are going).  Everyone is in 
> > phones,
> > we play/we record.  Then we add over dubs as needed, discarding any 
> > orig
> > trks we think deserve it.  Edit midi and mix into audio....  I seldom 
> > throw trks
> > away, I often double them as this adds a sonic quality and delay 
> > effect I prefer
> > over typical delay effects.
> >
> > rh
> >

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