QTR-Quadtone RIP

Jon,

You are welcome.  I print most of the time from grayscale images.

Carl

On Mar 15, 2008, at 11:19 PM, Jon Cone wrote:

> Carl,
>
> Thanks for the explanation. Are you actually printing some of the time
> or all the time from RGB images rather than grayscale images?
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> No, I don't consider these profiles as a source space, but rather as
>> an intermediate workflow conversion that fine tunes any minor bumps  
>> in
>> the linearization, in addition to providing softproofing capability.
>> It is a fully color managed workflow that goes from image source  
>> space
>> (can be either gray or RGB such as Adobe 98) to QTR Create-icc to QTR
>> driver for curves application and output.  Here is a graphic example
>> in the form of a screen grab from ImageNest where a full color RGB
>> image is the starting point (I don't often do grayscale conversion
>> this way, but it illustrates the RGB QTR icc conversion nicely).  You
>> can see in the preferences window that I left open that ImageNest
>> color management is active, a QTR icc profile (RGB) is selected, and
>> the preview in the print window shows that the conversion has
>> occurred.  Clicking Print from here of course opens the QTR driver
>> where the appropriate curve is applied and the print is made.  Works
>> great for me.  Note that the preview window in ImageNest is not yet
>> giving a true softproof.  I was told that this capability is present
>> and will be implemented in a future upgrade.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/QTRRGB.jpg
>>
>> On Mar 15, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> These QTR grayscale-iccs are not exactly source spaces that one  
>>> might
>>> use (to perhaps alter contrast for example) with a linearized  
>>> system.
>>> I have a question then. Why are you converting grayscale images with
>>> these create-icc grayscale iccs prior to printing? Is this how you  
>>> are
>>> getting a linearized output or is it because you want to alter the
>>> tone scale during output? I use create-icc for softproofing only,  
>>> this
>>> is why I am asking.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jon,
>>>>
>>>> If you read the notes in the QTR download on using QTR Create-icc
>>>> profiles for a color managed workflow, I think you will have a  
>>>> better
>>>> understanding of how I am using these profiles.  ImageNest should  
>>>> be
>>>> able to properly convert an image using an RGB version of a Create-
>>>> icc
>>>> profile (but not a gray version) if ImageNest color management is
>>>> selected.  Lightroom behaves in the same manner and will not use  
>>>> gray
>>>> profiles, but does work with QTR RGB profiles.  Both Lightroom and
>>>> ImageNest use the Colorsync engine for color management.  Photoshop
>>>> is
>>>> both gray and RGB space savvy so either a gray or RGB profile will
>>>> work.  Create-icc profiles were designed to be applied to the image
>>>> before going on to the QTR driver where the final output curves are
>>>> applied.  The Create-icc profile conversion is done on the fly in
>>>> Photoshop via the print space in Print with Preview in Photoshop,
>>>> using perceptual rendering with BPC.  In ImageNest this is done by
>>>> letting ImageNest manage color and selecting a Create-icc profile
>>>> (RGB
>>>> only) from the drop down list.  ImageNest will then do the  
>>>> conversion
>>>> from source space to the selected QTR icc profile and send the  
>>>> image
>>>> on to the QTR driver where an output curve is selected and applied
>>>> before going to the printer.  One work around for using the gray
>>>> version of the QTR icc profiles is to first convert the image in
>>>> Photoshop to the QTR gray icc profile and save the file tagged with
>>>> the QTR gray icc profile.  Then in ImageNest check the Use embedded
>>>> profile box, select printer color management, and open the  
>>>> converted
>>>> image.  ImageNest will then pass on the image file without
>>>> modification to QTR for final printing.  I think this latter
>>>> procedure
>>>> is similar to what you were doing with your untagged gray file, but
>>>> the only thing ImageNest was doing to your file was applying a
>>>> default
>>>> source profile (whatever one you chose for gray space) and then
>>>> passing the file on to QTR.  There was no real color management or
>>>> file conversion involved - just a simple pipeline pass through  
>>>> after
>>>> tagging the file with a source profile.  I prefer letting ImageNest
>>>> handle color management as it avoids the hassle of doing the file
>>>> conversions in Photoshop.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>
>>>>> There is an input and an output side to color management with
>>>>> ImageNest. On the input side you can choose to select a profile or
>>>>> use
>>>>> an embedded, it has an affect on the image which ImageNest then
>>>>> RIPs.
>>>>> If you RIP into a PDF to view, you can see these changes in the  
>>>>> PDF.
>>>>> ImageNest is handing off a PDF to QTR. If you can not see the
>>>>> changes
>>>>> in the PDF, or if you see that it is not black in the PDF - but is
>>>>> so
>>>>> when it prints - then there may be some other issue involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> QTR takes this "input" PDF and prints it with its own output
>>>>> management in the form of Curves.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that what you are trying to do (maybe?) is attach an  
>>>>> OUTPUT
>>>>> profile to the image.  In that regard, yes ImageNest can not  
>>>>> affect
>>>>> the output side of things with QTR using a custom output Grayscale
>>>>> ICC
>>>>> profile. That is where you let QTR manage the output.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we are on the same page again - just having a different
>>>>> think
>>>>> about using an output grayscale ICC in place of an input grayscale
>>>>> ICC.
>>>>>
>>>>> RGB is different.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I have the latest (1.0.1) version of ImageNest.  If you are
>>>>>> setting "Printer manages color" then no color management is
>>>>>> occurring
>>>>>> because Imagenest will pass off the file tagged either with an
>>>>>> embedded source profile (e.g.. gray gamma, QTR gray, etc.) or one
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it assigns from the list of default source profile choices (RGB,
>>>>>> CMYK,
>>>>>> or gray) if the file is untagged.  It will not convert the file
>>>>>> to a
>>>>>> printer profile (QTR Create-icc profile) in this case.  If you
>>>>>> choose
>>>>>> Imagenest color management then it will convert the image to the
>>>>>> selected printing profile (this is where you choose a QTR icc
>>>>>> profile)
>>>>>> from the drop down list under the check box for ImageNest Color
>>>>>> management.  This is how color management works on the Mac when
>>>>>> printing to QTR from Photoshop using Create-icc profiles and I
>>>>>> assume
>>>>>> that ImageNest follows the same convention in applying color
>>>>>> management.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am
>>>>>>> able to
>>>>>>> print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of
>>>>>>> us or
>>>>>>> the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> feature!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use
>>>>>>> embedded
>>>>>>> ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors"
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting  
>>>>>>> ImageNest
>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>> off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@>  
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jon,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you
>>>>>>>> open a
>>>>>>>> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source
>>>>>>>> space
>>>>>>>> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
>>>>>>>> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black
>>>>>>>> box in
>>>>>>>> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and
>>>>>>>> print
>>>>>>>> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
>>>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of  
>>>>>>>>> ImageNest
>>>>>>>>> when I
>>>>>>>>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> 1.0.1?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR  
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> works very well, but if
>>>>>>>>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via
>>>>>>>>>> custom
>>>>>>>>> icc profiles they
>>>>>>>>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version  
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
>>>>>>>>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and  
>>>>>>>>>> print
>>>>>>>>>> solid
>>>>>>>>> black.  Two features I
>>>>>>>>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability  
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>>>> custom layouts for re-
>>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>