QTR-Quadtone RIP

> use.
> 
> Carl
>

On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest when I
> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are you on
> 1.0.1?
>
> Jon
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and it
> works very well, but if
>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via custom
> icc profiles they
>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
> Create-icc profiles.  If you
>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print solid
> black.  Two features I
>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to save
> custom layouts for re-
>> use.
>>
>> Carl
>>

>
> Jon,
> 
> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you open a  
> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source space  
> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer  
> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black box in  
> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and print  
> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
> Carl
> 
> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest when I
> > let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are you on
> > 1.0.1?
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and it
> > works very well, but if
> >> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via custom
> > icc profiles they
> >> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
> > Create-icc profiles.  If you
> >> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print solid
> > black.  Two features I
> >> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to save
> > custom layouts for re-
> >> use.
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
>

On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:

> Carl,
>
> I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am able to
> print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of us or
> the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like this
> feature!
>
> Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use embedded
> ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors" rather
> than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting ImageNest hand
> off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you open a
>> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source space
>> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
>> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black box in
>> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and print
>> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
>> Carl
>>
>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest  
>>> when I
>>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are you  
>>> on
>>> 1.0.1?
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and it
>>> works very well, but if
>>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via custom
>>> icc profiles they
>>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
>>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
>>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print  
>>>> solid
>>> black.  Two features I
>>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to save
>>> custom layouts for re-
>>>> use.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>>>
>>

>
> Jon,
> 
> Yes, I have the latest (1.0.1) version of ImageNest.  If you are  
> setting "Printer manages color" then no color management is occurring  
> because Imagenest will pass off the file tagged either with an  
> embedded source profile (e.g.. gray gamma, QTR gray, etc.) or one that  
> it assigns from the list of default source profile choices (RGB, CMYK,  
> or gray) if the file is untagged.  It will not convert the file to a  
> printer profile (QTR Create-icc profile) in this case.  If you choose  
> Imagenest color management then it will convert the image to the  
> selected printing profile (this is where you choose a QTR icc profile)  
> from the drop down list under the check box for ImageNest Color  
> management.  This is how color management works on the Mac when  
> printing to QTR from Photoshop using Create-icc profiles and I assume  
> that ImageNest follows the same convention in applying color management.
> 
> Carl
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am able to
> > print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of us or
> > the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like this
> > feature!
> >
> > Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use embedded
> > ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors" rather
> > than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting ImageNest hand
> > off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Jon,
> >>
> >> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you open a
> >> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source space
> >> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
> >> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black box in
> >> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and print
> >> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
> >> Carl
> >>
> >> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>
> >>> Carl,
> >>>
> >>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest  
> >>> when I
> >>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are you  
> >>> on
> >>> 1.0.1?
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and it
> >>> works very well, but if
> >>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via custom
> >>> icc profiles they
> >>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
> >>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
> >>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print  
> >>>> solid
> >>> black.  Two features I
> >>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to save
> >>> custom layouts for re-
> >>>> use.
> >>>>
> >>>> Carl
> >>>>
> >>
>

On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Jon Cone wrote:

> Carl,
>
> There is an input and an output side to color management with
> ImageNest. On the input side you can choose to select a profile or use
> an embedded, it has an affect on the image which ImageNest then RIPs.
> If you RIP into a PDF to view, you can see these changes in the PDF.
> ImageNest is handing off a PDF to QTR. If you can not see the changes
> in the PDF, or if you see that it is not black in the PDF - but is so
> when it prints - then there may be some other issue involved.
>
> QTR takes this "input" PDF and prints it with its own output
> management in the form of Curves.
>
> I think that what you are trying to do (maybe?) is attach an OUTPUT
> profile to the image.  In that regard, yes ImageNest can not affect
> the output side of things with QTR using a custom output Grayscale ICC
> profile. That is where you let QTR manage the output.
>
> I think we are on the same page again - just having a different think
> about using an output grayscale ICC in place of an input grayscale  
> ICC.
>
> RGB is different.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> Yes, I have the latest (1.0.1) version of ImageNest.  If you are
>> setting "Printer manages color" then no color management is occurring
>> because Imagenest will pass off the file tagged either with an
>> embedded source profile (e.g.. gray gamma, QTR gray, etc.) or one  
>> that
>> it assigns from the list of default source profile choices (RGB,  
>> CMYK,
>> or gray) if the file is untagged.  It will not convert the file to a
>> printer profile (QTR Create-icc profile) in this case.  If you choose
>> Imagenest color management then it will convert the image to the
>> selected printing profile (this is where you choose a QTR icc  
>> profile)
>> from the drop down list under the check box for ImageNest Color
>> management.  This is how color management works on the Mac when
>> printing to QTR from Photoshop using Create-icc profiles and I assume
>> that ImageNest follows the same convention in applying color  
>> management.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am able to
>>> print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of us or
>>> the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like this
>>> feature!
>>>
>>> Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use  
>>> embedded
>>> ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors" rather
>>> than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting ImageNest  
>>> hand
>>> off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jon,
>>>>
>>>> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you open a
>>>> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source  
>>>> space
>>>> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
>>>> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black  
>>>> box in
>>>> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and print
>>>> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
>>>> Carl
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>
>>>>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest
>>>>> when I
>>>>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are you
>>>>> on
>>>>> 1.0.1?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@>  
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and  
>>>>>> it
>>>>> works very well, but if
>>>>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via  
>>>>>> custom
>>>>> icc profiles they
>>>>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
>>>>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
>>>>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print
>>>>>> solid
>>>>> black.  Two features I
>>>>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to  
>>>>>> save
>>>>> custom layouts for re-
>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>

>
> Jon,
> 
> If you read the notes in the QTR download on using QTR Create-icc  
> profiles for a color managed workflow, I think you will have a better  
> understanding of how I am using these profiles.  ImageNest should be  
> able to properly convert an image using an RGB version of a Create-icc  
> profile (but not a gray version) if ImageNest color management is  
> selected.  Lightroom behaves in the same manner and will not use gray  
> profiles, but does work with QTR RGB profiles.  Both Lightroom and  
> ImageNest use the Colorsync engine for color management.  Photoshop is  
> both gray and RGB space savvy so either a gray or RGB profile will  
> work.  Create-icc profiles were designed to be applied to the image  
> before going on to the QTR driver where the final output curves are  
> applied.  The Create-icc profile conversion is done on the fly in  
> Photoshop via the print space in Print with Preview in Photoshop,  
> using perceptual rendering with BPC.  In ImageNest this is done by  
> letting ImageNest manage color and selecting a Create-icc profile (RGB  
> only) from the drop down list.  ImageNest will then do the conversion  
> from source space to the selected QTR icc profile and send the image  
> on to the QTR driver where an output curve is selected and applied  
> before going to the printer.  One work around for using the gray  
> version of the QTR icc profiles is to first convert the image in  
> Photoshop to the QTR gray icc profile and save the file tagged with  
> the QTR gray icc profile.  Then in ImageNest check the Use embedded  
> profile box, select printer color management, and open the converted  
> image.  ImageNest will then pass on the image file without  
> modification to QTR for final printing.  I think this latter procedure  
> is similar to what you were doing with your untagged gray file, but  
> the only thing ImageNest was doing to your file was applying a default  
> source profile (whatever one you chose for gray space) and then  
> passing the file on to QTR.  There was no real color management or  
> file conversion involved - just a simple pipeline pass through after  
> tagging the file with a source profile.  I prefer letting ImageNest  
> handle color management as it avoids the hassle of doing the file  
> conversions in Photoshop.
> 
> Carl
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > There is an input and an output side to color management with
> > ImageNest. On the input side you can choose to select a profile or use
> > an embedded, it has an affect on the image which ImageNest then RIPs.
> > If you RIP into a PDF to view, you can see these changes in the PDF.
> > ImageNest is handing off a PDF to QTR. If you can not see the changes
> > in the PDF, or if you see that it is not black in the PDF - but is so
> > when it prints - then there may be some other issue involved.
> >
> > QTR takes this "input" PDF and prints it with its own output
> > management in the form of Curves.
> >
> > I think that what you are trying to do (maybe?) is attach an OUTPUT
> > profile to the image.  In that regard, yes ImageNest can not affect
> > the output side of things with QTR using a custom output Grayscale ICC
> > profile. That is where you let QTR manage the output.
> >
> > I think we are on the same page again - just having a different think
> > about using an output grayscale ICC in place of an input grayscale  
> > ICC.
> >
> > RGB is different.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Jon,
> >>
> >> Yes, I have the latest (1.0.1) version of ImageNest.  If you are
> >> setting "Printer manages color" then no color management is occurring
> >> because Imagenest will pass off the file tagged either with an
> >> embedded source profile (e.g.. gray gamma, QTR gray, etc.) or one  
> >> that
> >> it assigns from the list of default source profile choices (RGB,  
> >> CMYK,
> >> or gray) if the file is untagged.  It will not convert the file to a
> >> printer profile (QTR Create-icc profile) in this case.  If you choose
> >> Imagenest color management then it will convert the image to the
> >> selected printing profile (this is where you choose a QTR icc  
> >> profile)
> >> from the drop down list under the check box for ImageNest Color
> >> management.  This is how color management works on the Mac when
> >> printing to QTR from Photoshop using Create-icc profiles and I assume
> >> that ImageNest follows the same convention in applying color  
> >> management.
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>
> >>> Carl,
> >>>
> >>> I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am able to
> >>> print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of us or
> >>> the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like this
> >>> feature!
> >>>
> >>> Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use  
> >>> embedded
> >>> ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors" rather
> >>> than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting ImageNest  
> >>> hand
> >>> off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Jon,
> >>>>
> >>>> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you open a
> >>>> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source  
> >>>> space
> >>>> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
> >>>> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black  
> >>>> box in
> >>>> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and print
> >>>> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
> >>>> Carl
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Carl,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest
> >>>>> when I
> >>>>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are you
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> 1.0.1?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jon
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@>  
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and  
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>> works very well, but if
> >>>>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via  
> >>>>>> custom
> >>>>> icc profiles they
> >>>>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
> >>>>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
> >>>>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print
> >>>>>> solid
> >>>>> black.  Two features I
> >>>>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to  
> >>>>>> save
> >>>>> custom layouts for re-
> >>>>>> use.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Carl
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>

On Mar 15, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jon Cone wrote:

> Carl,
>
> These QTR grayscale-iccs are not exactly source spaces that one might
> use (to perhaps alter contrast for example) with a linearized system.
> I have a question then. Why are you converting grayscale images with
> these create-icc grayscale iccs prior to printing? Is this how you are
> getting a linearized output or is it because you want to alter the
> tone scale during output? I use create-icc for softproofing only, this
> is why I am asking.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> If you read the notes in the QTR download on using QTR Create-icc
>> profiles for a color managed workflow, I think you will have a better
>> understanding of how I am using these profiles.  ImageNest should be
>> able to properly convert an image using an RGB version of a Create- 
>> icc
>> profile (but not a gray version) if ImageNest color management is
>> selected.  Lightroom behaves in the same manner and will not use gray
>> profiles, but does work with QTR RGB profiles.  Both Lightroom and
>> ImageNest use the Colorsync engine for color management.  Photoshop  
>> is
>> both gray and RGB space savvy so either a gray or RGB profile will
>> work.  Create-icc profiles were designed to be applied to the image
>> before going on to the QTR driver where the final output curves are
>> applied.  The Create-icc profile conversion is done on the fly in
>> Photoshop via the print space in Print with Preview in Photoshop,
>> using perceptual rendering with BPC.  In ImageNest this is done by
>> letting ImageNest manage color and selecting a Create-icc profile  
>> (RGB
>> only) from the drop down list.  ImageNest will then do the conversion
>> from source space to the selected QTR icc profile and send the image
>> on to the QTR driver where an output curve is selected and applied
>> before going to the printer.  One work around for using the gray
>> version of the QTR icc profiles is to first convert the image in
>> Photoshop to the QTR gray icc profile and save the file tagged with
>> the QTR gray icc profile.  Then in ImageNest check the Use embedded
>> profile box, select printer color management, and open the converted
>> image.  ImageNest will then pass on the image file without
>> modification to QTR for final printing.  I think this latter  
>> procedure
>> is similar to what you were doing with your untagged gray file, but
>> the only thing ImageNest was doing to your file was applying a  
>> default
>> source profile (whatever one you chose for gray space) and then
>> passing the file on to QTR.  There was no real color management or
>> file conversion involved - just a simple pipeline pass through after
>> tagging the file with a source profile.  I prefer letting ImageNest
>> handle color management as it avoids the hassle of doing the file
>> conversions in Photoshop.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> There is an input and an output side to color management with
>>> ImageNest. On the input side you can choose to select a profile or  
>>> use
>>> an embedded, it has an affect on the image which ImageNest then  
>>> RIPs.
>>> If you RIP into a PDF to view, you can see these changes in the PDF.
>>> ImageNest is handing off a PDF to QTR. If you can not see the  
>>> changes
>>> in the PDF, or if you see that it is not black in the PDF - but is  
>>> so
>>> when it prints - then there may be some other issue involved.
>>>
>>> QTR takes this "input" PDF and prints it with its own output
>>> management in the form of Curves.
>>>
>>> I think that what you are trying to do (maybe?) is attach an OUTPUT
>>> profile to the image.  In that regard, yes ImageNest can not affect
>>> the output side of things with QTR using a custom output Grayscale  
>>> ICC
>>> profile. That is where you let QTR manage the output.
>>>
>>> I think we are on the same page again - just having a different  
>>> think
>>> about using an output grayscale ICC in place of an input grayscale
>>> ICC.
>>>
>>> RGB is different.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jon,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I have the latest (1.0.1) version of ImageNest.  If you are
>>>> setting "Printer manages color" then no color management is  
>>>> occurring
>>>> because Imagenest will pass off the file tagged either with an
>>>> embedded source profile (e.g.. gray gamma, QTR gray, etc.) or one
>>>> that
>>>> it assigns from the list of default source profile choices (RGB,
>>>> CMYK,
>>>> or gray) if the file is untagged.  It will not convert the file  
>>>> to a
>>>> printer profile (QTR Create-icc profile) in this case.  If you  
>>>> choose
>>>> Imagenest color management then it will convert the image to the
>>>> selected printing profile (this is where you choose a QTR icc
>>>> profile)
>>>> from the drop down list under the check box for ImageNest Color
>>>> management.  This is how color management works on the Mac when
>>>> printing to QTR from Photoshop using Create-icc profiles and I  
>>>> assume
>>>> that ImageNest follows the same convention in applying color
>>>> management.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am  
>>>>> able to
>>>>> print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of  
>>>>> us or
>>>>> the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like  
>>>>> this
>>>>> feature!
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use
>>>>> embedded
>>>>> ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors"  
>>>>> rather
>>>>> than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting ImageNest
>>>>> hand
>>>>> off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you  
>>>>>> open a
>>>>>> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source
>>>>>> space
>>>>>> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
>>>>>> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black
>>>>>> box in
>>>>>> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and  
>>>>>> print
>>>>>> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest
>>>>>>> when I
>>>>>>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are  
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> 1.0.1?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> works very well, but if
>>>>>>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via
>>>>>>>> custom
>>>>>>> icc profiles they
>>>>>>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
>>>>>>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
>>>>>>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print
>>>>>>>> solid
>>>>>>> black.  Two features I
>>>>>>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to
>>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>> custom layouts for re-
>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>

>
> Jon,
> 
> No, I don't consider these profiles as a source space, but rather as  
> an intermediate workflow conversion that fine tunes any minor bumps in  
> the linearization, in addition to providing softproofing capability.   
> It is a fully color managed workflow that goes from image source space  
> (can be either gray or RGB such as Adobe 98) to QTR Create-icc to QTR  
> driver for curves application and output.  Here is a graphic example  
> in the form of a screen grab from ImageNest where a full color RGB  
> image is the starting point (I don't often do grayscale conversion  
> this way, but it illustrates the RGB QTR icc conversion nicely).  You  
> can see in the preferences window that I left open that ImageNest  
> color management is active, a QTR icc profile (RGB) is selected, and  
> the preview in the print window shows that the conversion has  
> occurred.  Clicking Print from here of course opens the QTR driver  
> where the appropriate curve is applied and the print is made.  Works  
> great for me.  Note that the preview window in ImageNest is not yet  
> giving a true softproof.  I was told that this capability is present  
> and will be implemented in a future upgrade.
> 
> Carl
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/QTRRGB.jpg
> 
> On Mar 15, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > These QTR grayscale-iccs are not exactly source spaces that one might
> > use (to perhaps alter contrast for example) with a linearized system.
> > I have a question then. Why are you converting grayscale images with
> > these create-icc grayscale iccs prior to printing? Is this how you are
> > getting a linearized output or is it because you want to alter the
> > tone scale during output? I use create-icc for softproofing only, this
> > is why I am asking.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Jon,
> >>
> >> If you read the notes in the QTR download on using QTR Create-icc
> >> profiles for a color managed workflow, I think you will have a better
> >> understanding of how I am using these profiles.  ImageNest should be
> >> able to properly convert an image using an RGB version of a Create- 
> >> icc
> >> profile (but not a gray version) if ImageNest color management is
> >> selected.  Lightroom behaves in the same manner and will not use gray
> >> profiles, but does work with QTR RGB profiles.  Both Lightroom and
> >> ImageNest use the Colorsync engine for color management.  Photoshop  
> >> is
> >> both gray and RGB space savvy so either a gray or RGB profile will
> >> work.  Create-icc profiles were designed to be applied to the image
> >> before going on to the QTR driver where the final output curves are
> >> applied.  The Create-icc profile conversion is done on the fly in
> >> Photoshop via the print space in Print with Preview in Photoshop,
> >> using perceptual rendering with BPC.  In ImageNest this is done by
> >> letting ImageNest manage color and selecting a Create-icc profile  
> >> (RGB
> >> only) from the drop down list.  ImageNest will then do the conversion
> >> from source space to the selected QTR icc profile and send the image
> >> on to the QTR driver where an output curve is selected and applied
> >> before going to the printer.  One work around for using the gray
> >> version of the QTR icc profiles is to first convert the image in
> >> Photoshop to the QTR gray icc profile and save the file tagged with
> >> the QTR gray icc profile.  Then in ImageNest check the Use embedded
> >> profile box, select printer color management, and open the converted
> >> image.  ImageNest will then pass on the image file without
> >> modification to QTR for final printing.  I think this latter  
> >> procedure
> >> is similar to what you were doing with your untagged gray file, but
> >> the only thing ImageNest was doing to your file was applying a  
> >> default
> >> source profile (whatever one you chose for gray space) and then
> >> passing the file on to QTR.  There was no real color management or
> >> file conversion involved - just a simple pipeline pass through after
> >> tagging the file with a source profile.  I prefer letting ImageNest
> >> handle color management as it avoids the hassle of doing the file
> >> conversions in Photoshop.
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>
> >>> Carl,
> >>>
> >>> There is an input and an output side to color management with
> >>> ImageNest. On the input side you can choose to select a profile or  
> >>> use
> >>> an embedded, it has an affect on the image which ImageNest then  
> >>> RIPs.
> >>> If you RIP into a PDF to view, you can see these changes in the PDF.
> >>> ImageNest is handing off a PDF to QTR. If you can not see the  
> >>> changes
> >>> in the PDF, or if you see that it is not black in the PDF - but is  
> >>> so
> >>> when it prints - then there may be some other issue involved.
> >>>
> >>> QTR takes this "input" PDF and prints it with its own output
> >>> management in the form of Curves.
> >>>
> >>> I think that what you are trying to do (maybe?) is attach an OUTPUT
> >>> profile to the image.  In that regard, yes ImageNest can not affect
> >>> the output side of things with QTR using a custom output Grayscale  
> >>> ICC
> >>> profile. That is where you let QTR manage the output.
> >>>
> >>> I think we are on the same page again - just having a different  
> >>> think
> >>> about using an output grayscale ICC in place of an input grayscale
> >>> ICC.
> >>>
> >>> RGB is different.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Jon,
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, I have the latest (1.0.1) version of ImageNest.  If you are
> >>>> setting "Printer manages color" then no color management is  
> >>>> occurring
> >>>> because Imagenest will pass off the file tagged either with an
> >>>> embedded source profile (e.g.. gray gamma, QTR gray, etc.) or one
> >>>> that
> >>>> it assigns from the list of default source profile choices (RGB,
> >>>> CMYK,
> >>>> or gray) if the file is untagged.  It will not convert the file  
> >>>> to a
> >>>> printer profile (QTR Create-icc profile) in this case.  If you  
> >>>> choose
> >>>> Imagenest color management then it will convert the image to the
> >>>> selected printing profile (this is where you choose a QTR icc
> >>>> profile)
> >>>> from the drop down list under the check box for ImageNest Color
> >>>> management.  This is how color management works on the Mac when
> >>>> printing to QTR from Photoshop using Create-icc profiles and I  
> >>>> assume
> >>>> that ImageNest follows the same convention in applying color
> >>>> management.
> >>>>
> >>>> Carl
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Carl,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am  
> >>>>> able to
> >>>>> print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of  
> >>>>> us or
> >>>>> the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like  
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> feature!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use
> >>>>> embedded
> >>>>> ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors"  
> >>>>> rather
> >>>>> than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting ImageNest
> >>>>> hand
> >>>>> off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jon
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jon,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you  
> >>>>>> open a
> >>>>>> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source
> >>>>>> space
> >>>>>> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
> >>>>>> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black
> >>>>>> box in
> >>>>>> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and  
> >>>>>> print
> >>>>>> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
> >>>>>> Carl
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Carl,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest
> >>>>>>> when I
> >>>>>>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are  
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> 1.0.1?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jon
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>> works very well, but if
> >>>>>>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via
> >>>>>>>> custom
> >>>>>>> icc profiles they
> >>>>>>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
> >>>>>>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
> >>>>>>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print
> >>>>>>>> solid
> >>>>>>> black.  Two features I
> >>>>>>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to
> >>>>>>>> save
> >>>>>>> custom layouts for re-
> >>>>>>>> use.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Carl
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
>

On Mar 15, 2008, at 11:19 PM, Jon Cone wrote:

> Carl,
>
> Thanks for the explanation. Are you actually printing some of the time
> or all the time from RGB images rather than grayscale images?
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> No, I don't consider these profiles as a source space, but rather as
>> an intermediate workflow conversion that fine tunes any minor bumps  
>> in
>> the linearization, in addition to providing softproofing capability.
>> It is a fully color managed workflow that goes from image source  
>> space
>> (can be either gray or RGB such as Adobe 98) to QTR Create-icc to QTR
>> driver for curves application and output.  Here is a graphic example
>> in the form of a screen grab from ImageNest where a full color RGB
>> image is the starting point (I don't often do grayscale conversion
>> this way, but it illustrates the RGB QTR icc conversion nicely).  You
>> can see in the preferences window that I left open that ImageNest
>> color management is active, a QTR icc profile (RGB) is selected, and
>> the preview in the print window shows that the conversion has
>> occurred.  Clicking Print from here of course opens the QTR driver
>> where the appropriate curve is applied and the print is made.  Works
>> great for me.  Note that the preview window in ImageNest is not yet
>> giving a true softproof.  I was told that this capability is present
>> and will be implemented in a future upgrade.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/QTRRGB.jpg
>>
>> On Mar 15, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> These QTR grayscale-iccs are not exactly source spaces that one  
>>> might
>>> use (to perhaps alter contrast for example) with a linearized  
>>> system.
>>> I have a question then. Why are you converting grayscale images with
>>> these create-icc grayscale iccs prior to printing? Is this how you  
>>> are
>>> getting a linearized output or is it because you want to alter the
>>> tone scale during output? I use create-icc for softproofing only,  
>>> this
>>> is why I am asking.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jon,
>>>>
>>>> If you read the notes in the QTR download on using QTR Create-icc
>>>> profiles for a color managed workflow, I think you will have a  
>>>> better
>>>> understanding of how I am using these profiles.  ImageNest should  
>>>> be
>>>> able to properly convert an image using an RGB version of a Create-
>>>> icc
>>>> profile (but not a gray version) if ImageNest color management is
>>>> selected.  Lightroom behaves in the same manner and will not use  
>>>> gray
>>>> profiles, but does work with QTR RGB profiles.  Both Lightroom and
>>>> ImageNest use the Colorsync engine for color management.  Photoshop
>>>> is
>>>> both gray and RGB space savvy so either a gray or RGB profile will
>>>> work.  Create-icc profiles were designed to be applied to the image
>>>> before going on to the QTR driver where the final output curves are
>>>> applied.  The Create-icc profile conversion is done on the fly in
>>>> Photoshop via the print space in Print with Preview in Photoshop,
>>>> using perceptual rendering with BPC.  In ImageNest this is done by
>>>> letting ImageNest manage color and selecting a Create-icc profile
>>>> (RGB
>>>> only) from the drop down list.  ImageNest will then do the  
>>>> conversion
>>>> from source space to the selected QTR icc profile and send the  
>>>> image
>>>> on to the QTR driver where an output curve is selected and applied
>>>> before going to the printer.  One work around for using the gray
>>>> version of the QTR icc profiles is to first convert the image in
>>>> Photoshop to the QTR gray icc profile and save the file tagged with
>>>> the QTR gray icc profile.  Then in ImageNest check the Use embedded
>>>> profile box, select printer color management, and open the  
>>>> converted
>>>> image.  ImageNest will then pass on the image file without
>>>> modification to QTR for final printing.  I think this latter
>>>> procedure
>>>> is similar to what you were doing with your untagged gray file, but
>>>> the only thing ImageNest was doing to your file was applying a
>>>> default
>>>> source profile (whatever one you chose for gray space) and then
>>>> passing the file on to QTR.  There was no real color management or
>>>> file conversion involved - just a simple pipeline pass through  
>>>> after
>>>> tagging the file with a source profile.  I prefer letting ImageNest
>>>> handle color management as it avoids the hassle of doing the file
>>>> conversions in Photoshop.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>
>>>>> There is an input and an output side to color management with
>>>>> ImageNest. On the input side you can choose to select a profile or
>>>>> use
>>>>> an embedded, it has an affect on the image which ImageNest then
>>>>> RIPs.
>>>>> If you RIP into a PDF to view, you can see these changes in the  
>>>>> PDF.
>>>>> ImageNest is handing off a PDF to QTR. If you can not see the
>>>>> changes
>>>>> in the PDF, or if you see that it is not black in the PDF - but is
>>>>> so
>>>>> when it prints - then there may be some other issue involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> QTR takes this "input" PDF and prints it with its own output
>>>>> management in the form of Curves.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that what you are trying to do (maybe?) is attach an  
>>>>> OUTPUT
>>>>> profile to the image.  In that regard, yes ImageNest can not  
>>>>> affect
>>>>> the output side of things with QTR using a custom output Grayscale
>>>>> ICC
>>>>> profile. That is where you let QTR manage the output.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we are on the same page again - just having a different
>>>>> think
>>>>> about using an output grayscale ICC in place of an input grayscale
>>>>> ICC.
>>>>>
>>>>> RGB is different.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I have the latest (1.0.1) version of ImageNest.  If you are
>>>>>> setting "Printer manages color" then no color management is
>>>>>> occurring
>>>>>> because Imagenest will pass off the file tagged either with an
>>>>>> embedded source profile (e.g.. gray gamma, QTR gray, etc.) or one
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it assigns from the list of default source profile choices (RGB,
>>>>>> CMYK,
>>>>>> or gray) if the file is untagged.  It will not convert the file
>>>>>> to a
>>>>>> printer profile (QTR Create-icc profile) in this case.  If you
>>>>>> choose
>>>>>> Imagenest color management then it will convert the image to the
>>>>>> selected printing profile (this is where you choose a QTR icc
>>>>>> profile)
>>>>>> from the drop down list under the check box for ImageNest Color
>>>>>> management.  This is how color management works on the Mac when
>>>>>> printing to QTR from Photoshop using Create-icc profiles and I
>>>>>> assume
>>>>>> that ImageNest follows the same convention in applying color
>>>>>> management.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am
>>>>>>> able to
>>>>>>> print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of
>>>>>>> us or
>>>>>>> the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> feature!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use
>>>>>>> embedded
>>>>>>> ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors"
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting  
>>>>>>> ImageNest
>>>>>>> hand
>>>>>>> off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@>  
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jon,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you
>>>>>>>> open a
>>>>>>>> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source
>>>>>>>> space
>>>>>>>> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
>>>>>>>> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black
>>>>>>>> box in
>>>>>>>> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and
>>>>>>>> print
>>>>>>>> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
>>>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of  
>>>>>>>>> ImageNest
>>>>>>>>> when I
>>>>>>>>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> 1.0.1?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR  
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> works very well, but if
>>>>>>>>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via
>>>>>>>>>> custom
>>>>>>>>> icc profiles they
>>>>>>>>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version  
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
>>>>>>>>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and  
>>>>>>>>>> print
>>>>>>>>>> solid
>>>>>>>>> black.  Two features I
>>>>>>>>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability  
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>>>> custom layouts for re-
>>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>