QTR-Quadtone RIP

Carl,

Thanks for the explanation. Are you actually printing some of the time
or all the time from RGB images rather than grayscale images?

Jon



--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>
> Jon,
> 
> No, I don't consider these profiles as a source space, but rather as  
> an intermediate workflow conversion that fine tunes any minor bumps in  
> the linearization, in addition to providing softproofing capability.   
> It is a fully color managed workflow that goes from image source space  
> (can be either gray or RGB such as Adobe 98) to QTR Create-icc to QTR  
> driver for curves application and output.  Here is a graphic example  
> in the form of a screen grab from ImageNest where a full color RGB  
> image is the starting point (I don't often do grayscale conversion  
> this way, but it illustrates the RGB QTR icc conversion nicely).  You  
> can see in the preferences window that I left open that ImageNest  
> color management is active, a QTR icc profile (RGB) is selected, and  
> the preview in the print window shows that the conversion has  
> occurred.  Clicking Print from here of course opens the QTR driver  
> where the appropriate curve is applied and the print is made.  Works  
> great for me.  Note that the preview window in ImageNest is not yet  
> giving a true softproof.  I was told that this capability is present  
> and will be implemented in a future upgrade.
> 
> Carl
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/scho/QTRRGB.jpg
> 
> On Mar 15, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > These QTR grayscale-iccs are not exactly source spaces that one might
> > use (to perhaps alter contrast for example) with a linearized system.
> > I have a question then. Why are you converting grayscale images with
> > these create-icc grayscale iccs prior to printing? Is this how you are
> > getting a linearized output or is it because you want to alter the
> > tone scale during output? I use create-icc for softproofing only, this
> > is why I am asking.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Jon,
> >>
> >> If you read the notes in the QTR download on using QTR Create-icc
> >> profiles for a color managed workflow, I think you will have a better
> >> understanding of how I am using these profiles.  ImageNest should be
> >> able to properly convert an image using an RGB version of a Create- 
> >> icc
> >> profile (but not a gray version) if ImageNest color management is
> >> selected.  Lightroom behaves in the same manner and will not use gray
> >> profiles, but does work with QTR RGB profiles.  Both Lightroom and
> >> ImageNest use the Colorsync engine for color management.  Photoshop  
> >> is
> >> both gray and RGB space savvy so either a gray or RGB profile will
> >> work.  Create-icc profiles were designed to be applied to the image
> >> before going on to the QTR driver where the final output curves are
> >> applied.  The Create-icc profile conversion is done on the fly in
> >> Photoshop via the print space in Print with Preview in Photoshop,
> >> using perceptual rendering with BPC.  In ImageNest this is done by
> >> letting ImageNest manage color and selecting a Create-icc profile  
> >> (RGB
> >> only) from the drop down list.  ImageNest will then do the conversion
> >> from source space to the selected QTR icc profile and send the image
> >> on to the QTR driver where an output curve is selected and applied
> >> before going to the printer.  One work around for using the gray
> >> version of the QTR icc profiles is to first convert the image in
> >> Photoshop to the QTR gray icc profile and save the file tagged with
> >> the QTR gray icc profile.  Then in ImageNest check the Use embedded
> >> profile box, select printer color management, and open the converted
> >> image.  ImageNest will then pass on the image file without
> >> modification to QTR for final printing.  I think this latter  
> >> procedure
> >> is similar to what you were doing with your untagged gray file, but
> >> the only thing ImageNest was doing to your file was applying a  
> >> default
> >> source profile (whatever one you chose for gray space) and then
> >> passing the file on to QTR.  There was no real color management or
> >> file conversion involved - just a simple pipeline pass through after
> >> tagging the file with a source profile.  I prefer letting ImageNest
> >> handle color management as it avoids the hassle of doing the file
> >> conversions in Photoshop.
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>
> >>> Carl,
> >>>
> >>> There is an input and an output side to color management with
> >>> ImageNest. On the input side you can choose to select a profile or  
> >>> use
> >>> an embedded, it has an affect on the image which ImageNest then  
> >>> RIPs.
> >>> If you RIP into a PDF to view, you can see these changes in the PDF.
> >>> ImageNest is handing off a PDF to QTR. If you can not see the  
> >>> changes
> >>> in the PDF, or if you see that it is not black in the PDF - but is  
> >>> so
> >>> when it prints - then there may be some other issue involved.
> >>>
> >>> QTR takes this "input" PDF and prints it with its own output
> >>> management in the form of Curves.
> >>>
> >>> I think that what you are trying to do (maybe?) is attach an OUTPUT
> >>> profile to the image.  In that regard, yes ImageNest can not affect
> >>> the output side of things with QTR using a custom output Grayscale  
> >>> ICC
> >>> profile. That is where you let QTR manage the output.
> >>>
> >>> I think we are on the same page again - just having a different  
> >>> think
> >>> about using an output grayscale ICC in place of an input grayscale
> >>> ICC.
> >>>
> >>> RGB is different.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Jon,
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, I have the latest (1.0.1) version of ImageNest.  If you are
> >>>> setting "Printer manages color" then no color management is  
> >>>> occurring
> >>>> because Imagenest will pass off the file tagged either with an
> >>>> embedded source profile (e.g.. gray gamma, QTR gray, etc.) or one
> >>>> that
> >>>> it assigns from the list of default source profile choices (RGB,
> >>>> CMYK,
> >>>> or gray) if the file is untagged.  It will not convert the file  
> >>>> to a
> >>>> printer profile (QTR Create-icc profile) in this case.  If you  
> >>>> choose
> >>>> Imagenest color management then it will convert the image to the
> >>>> selected printing profile (this is where you choose a QTR icc
> >>>> profile)
> >>>> from the drop down list under the check box for ImageNest Color
> >>>> management.  This is how color management works on the Mac when
> >>>> printing to QTR from Photoshop using Create-icc profiles and I  
> >>>> assume
> >>>> that ImageNest follows the same convention in applying color
> >>>> management.
> >>>>
> >>>> Carl
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Carl,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am  
> >>>>> able to
> >>>>> print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of  
> >>>>> us or
> >>>>> the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like  
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> feature!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use
> >>>>> embedded
> >>>>> ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors"  
> >>>>> rather
> >>>>> than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting ImageNest
> >>>>> hand
> >>>>> off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jon
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jon,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you  
> >>>>>> open a
> >>>>>> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source
> >>>>>> space
> >>>>>> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
> >>>>>> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black
> >>>>>> box in
> >>>>>> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and  
> >>>>>> print
> >>>>>> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
> >>>>>> Carl
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Carl,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest
> >>>>>>> when I
> >>>>>>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are  
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> 1.0.1?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jon
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>> works very well, but if
> >>>>>>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via
> >>>>>>>> custom
> >>>>>>> icc profiles they
> >>>>>>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
> >>>>>>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
> >>>>>>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print
> >>>>>>>> solid
> >>>>>>> black.  Two features I
> >>>>>>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to
> >>>>>>>> save
> >>>>>>> custom layouts for re-
> >>>>>>>> use.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Carl
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
>