QTR-Quadtone RIP

Jon,

No, I don't consider these profiles as a source space, but rather as  
an intermediate workflow conversion that fine tunes any minor bumps in  
the linearization, in addition to providing softproofing capability.   
It is a fully color managed workflow that goes from image source space  
(can be either gray or RGB such as Adobe 98) to QTR Create-icc to QTR  
driver for curves application and output.  Here is a graphic example  
in the form of a screen grab from ImageNest where a full color RGB  
image is the starting point (I don't often do grayscale conversion  
this way, but it illustrates the RGB QTR icc conversion nicely).  You  
can see in the preferences window that I left open that ImageNest  
color management is active, a QTR icc profile (RGB) is selected, and  
the preview in the print window shows that the conversion has  
occurred.  Clicking Print from here of course opens the QTR driver  
where the appropriate curve is applied and the print is made.  Works  
great for me.  Note that the preview window in ImageNest is not yet  
giving a true softproof.  I was told that this capability is present  
and will be implemented in a future upgrade.

Carl

http://homepage.mac.com/scho/QTRRGB.jpg

On Mar 15, 2008, at 10:44 AM, Jon Cone wrote:

> Carl,
>
> These QTR grayscale-iccs are not exactly source spaces that one might
> use (to perhaps alter contrast for example) with a linearized system.
> I have a question then. Why are you converting grayscale images with
> these create-icc grayscale iccs prior to printing? Is this how you are
> getting a linearized output or is it because you want to alter the
> tone scale during output? I use create-icc for softproofing only, this
> is why I am asking.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> If you read the notes in the QTR download on using QTR Create-icc
>> profiles for a color managed workflow, I think you will have a better
>> understanding of how I am using these profiles.  ImageNest should be
>> able to properly convert an image using an RGB version of a Create- 
>> icc
>> profile (but not a gray version) if ImageNest color management is
>> selected.  Lightroom behaves in the same manner and will not use gray
>> profiles, but does work with QTR RGB profiles.  Both Lightroom and
>> ImageNest use the Colorsync engine for color management.  Photoshop  
>> is
>> both gray and RGB space savvy so either a gray or RGB profile will
>> work.  Create-icc profiles were designed to be applied to the image
>> before going on to the QTR driver where the final output curves are
>> applied.  The Create-icc profile conversion is done on the fly in
>> Photoshop via the print space in Print with Preview in Photoshop,
>> using perceptual rendering with BPC.  In ImageNest this is done by
>> letting ImageNest manage color and selecting a Create-icc profile  
>> (RGB
>> only) from the drop down list.  ImageNest will then do the conversion
>> from source space to the selected QTR icc profile and send the image
>> on to the QTR driver where an output curve is selected and applied
>> before going to the printer.  One work around for using the gray
>> version of the QTR icc profiles is to first convert the image in
>> Photoshop to the QTR gray icc profile and save the file tagged with
>> the QTR gray icc profile.  Then in ImageNest check the Use embedded
>> profile box, select printer color management, and open the converted
>> image.  ImageNest will then pass on the image file without
>> modification to QTR for final printing.  I think this latter  
>> procedure
>> is similar to what you were doing with your untagged gray file, but
>> the only thing ImageNest was doing to your file was applying a  
>> default
>> source profile (whatever one you chose for gray space) and then
>> passing the file on to QTR.  There was no real color management or
>> file conversion involved - just a simple pipeline pass through after
>> tagging the file with a source profile.  I prefer letting ImageNest
>> handle color management as it avoids the hassle of doing the file
>> conversions in Photoshop.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 2:37 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> There is an input and an output side to color management with
>>> ImageNest. On the input side you can choose to select a profile or  
>>> use
>>> an embedded, it has an affect on the image which ImageNest then  
>>> RIPs.
>>> If you RIP into a PDF to view, you can see these changes in the PDF.
>>> ImageNest is handing off a PDF to QTR. If you can not see the  
>>> changes
>>> in the PDF, or if you see that it is not black in the PDF - but is  
>>> so
>>> when it prints - then there may be some other issue involved.
>>>
>>> QTR takes this "input" PDF and prints it with its own output
>>> management in the form of Curves.
>>>
>>> I think that what you are trying to do (maybe?) is attach an OUTPUT
>>> profile to the image.  In that regard, yes ImageNest can not affect
>>> the output side of things with QTR using a custom output Grayscale  
>>> ICC
>>> profile. That is where you let QTR manage the output.
>>>
>>> I think we are on the same page again - just having a different  
>>> think
>>> about using an output grayscale ICC in place of an input grayscale
>>> ICC.
>>>
>>> RGB is different.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jon,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I have the latest (1.0.1) version of ImageNest.  If you are
>>>> setting "Printer manages color" then no color management is  
>>>> occurring
>>>> because Imagenest will pass off the file tagged either with an
>>>> embedded source profile (e.g.. gray gamma, QTR gray, etc.) or one
>>>> that
>>>> it assigns from the list of default source profile choices (RGB,
>>>> CMYK,
>>>> or gray) if the file is untagged.  It will not convert the file  
>>>> to a
>>>> printer profile (QTR Create-icc profile) in this case.  If you  
>>>> choose
>>>> Imagenest color management then it will convert the image to the
>>>> selected printing profile (this is where you choose a QTR icc
>>>> profile)
>>>> from the drop down list under the check box for ImageNest Color
>>>> management.  This is how color management works on the Mac when
>>>> printing to QTR from Photoshop using Create-icc profiles and I  
>>>> assume
>>>> that ImageNest follows the same convention in applying color
>>>> management.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 14, 2008, at 8:46 AM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not getting that result with a tagged image either. I am  
>>>>> able to
>>>>> print and the results are indicative of the preview. So one of  
>>>>> us or
>>>>> the other has a bug! I hope its you and not me, because I like  
>>>>> this
>>>>> feature!
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have the latest version? You can check or uncheck "Use
>>>>> embedded
>>>>> ICC profile."  Also, correct use is "Printer Manages Colors"  
>>>>> rather
>>>>> than "ImageNest Manages Colors." The idea being letting ImageNest
>>>>> hand
>>>>> off the job (with different input profile) to QTR.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are correct, but the key word is untagged image.  If you  
>>>>>> open a
>>>>>> grayscale image that has been tagged in Photoshop with a source
>>>>>> space
>>>>>> profile like gray gamma 2.2 and then specify a gray QTR printer
>>>>>> profile in ImageNest then it will not work and you get a black
>>>>>> box in
>>>>>> preview and in print.  The same tagged image will preview and  
>>>>>> print
>>>>>> correctly if an RGB QTR printer profile is used.
>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I find that QTR responds accurately to the preview of ImageNest
>>>>>>> when I
>>>>>>> let ImageNest assign a grayscale ICC to an untagged image. Are  
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> 1.0.1?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Schofield" <list@>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, thanks Jon.  I have also been using ImageNest with QTR and
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> works very well, but if
>>>>>>>> QTR users want to let ImageNest handle color management via
>>>>>>>> custom
>>>>>>> icc profiles they
>>>>>>>> should be aware that it is necessary to use the RGB version of
>>>>>>> Create-icc profiles.  If you
>>>>>>>> try to use a gray icc profile the image will preview and print
>>>>>>>> solid
>>>>>>> black.  Two features I
>>>>>>>> would like to see them add are softproofing and the ability to
>>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>> custom layouts for re-
>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>