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matte v. photo black

matte v. photo black

2012-01-31 by laanyc

Hi all, I am new to QTR, using it to make digital negatives.  I am running CS5 on a MAC, I have installed the Adobe workaround for color management, http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/834/cpsid_83497.html, and printing to a 3880.  Following Clay's wonderful PDF, I printed out the ink separation TIFF and made a pt/pd print.  The whites are not perfect paper white, but I am thinking that may get taken care of later in the process (ASSumption??). It occurred to me this morning that I don't recall ever seeing an option for whether to use the photo black ink or the matte ink - or even how that would be done.  I ran across something on Ron Reeder's site (have the book, but must have missed seeing this issue in my reading) that said to use matte ink.  Does the difference between these inks matter much?  I will print out an ink separation page using the matte ink and test, but wondering what others have experienced?  thank you....lyle

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] matte v. photo black

2012-01-31 by Alan Vlach

There is no reason you shouldn't have gotten a paper white for Pt/Pd on the ink separation page. There should have been a lot of pure white squares for the black and probably yellow inks. You may be having a clearing  or fogging issue.

On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:51 AM, laanyc wrote:

> Hi all, I am new to QTR, using it to make digital negatives. I am running CS5 on a MAC, I have installed the Adobe workaround for color management, http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/834/cpsid_83497.html, and printing to a 3880. Following Clay's wonderful PDF, I printed out the ink separation TIFF and made a pt/pd print. The whites are not perfect paper white, but I am thinking that may get taken care of later in the process (ASSumption??). It occurred to me this morning that I don't recall ever seeing an option for whether to use the photo black ink or the matte ink - or even how that would be done. I ran across something on Ron Reeder's site (have the book, but must have missed seeing this issue in my reading) that said to use matte ink. Does the difference between these inks matter much? I will print out an ink separation page using the matte ink and test, but wondering what others have experienced? thank you....lyle 
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: matte v. photo black

2012-01-31 by kenleegallery

Is the non-white portion, yellow or gray ? If it's yellow, you need to maintain a slightly acidic pH. Some people go directly from developer to (Citric) acid, to avoid having the Ferric Oxalate stuck permanently in the print.  

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> There is no reason you shouldn't have gotten a paper white for Pt/Pd on the ink separation page. There should have been a lot of pure white squares for the black and probably yellow inks. You may be having a clearing  or fogging issue.
> 
> On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:51 AM, laanyc wrote:
> 
> > Hi all, I am new to QTR, using it to make digital negatives. I am running CS5 on a MAC, I have installed the Adobe workaround for color management, http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/834/cpsid_83497.html, and printing to a 3880. Following Clay's wonderful PDF, I printed out the ink separation TIFF and made a pt/pd print. The whites are not perfect paper white, but I am thinking that may get taken care of later in the process (ASSumption??). It occurred to me this morning that I don't recall ever seeing an option for whether to use the photo black ink or the matte ink - or even how that would be done. I ran across something on Ron Reeder's site (have the book, but must have missed seeing this issue in my reading) that said to use matte ink. Does the difference between these inks matter much? I will print out an ink separation page using the matte ink and test, but wondering what others have experienced? thank you....lyle 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: matte v. photo black

2012-01-31 by SandyK

Ken,

Are you printing the ink separation page with Quad Tone Rip Calibration? If so, you should get plenty of blocking for palladium printing, whether you have chosen PK or MK. 

Sandy 

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "laanyc" <lallan1@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi all, I am new to QTR, using it to make digital negatives.  I am running CS5 on a MAC, I have installed the Adobe workaround for color management, http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/834/cpsid_83497.html, and printing to a 3880.  Following Clay's wonderful PDF, I printed out the ink separation TIFF and made a pt/pd print.  The whites are not perfect paper white, but I am thinking that may get taken care of later in the process (ASSumption??). It occurred to me this morning that I don't recall ever seeing an option for whether to use the photo black ink or the matte ink - or even how that would be done.  I ran across something on Ron Reeder's site (have the book, but must have missed seeing this issue in my reading) that said to use matte ink.  Does the difference between these inks matter much?  I will print out an ink separation page using the matte ink and test, but wondering what others have experienced?  thank you....lyle
>

Re: matte v. photo black

2012-02-01 by laanyc

I thought I was using the calibration step.  I believe the way I did this is to start the work around application, there is no button for 'color management' so I ASSume that there isn't any management going on (this is the reason for this app, correct?) and print from there (i, no Photoshop involved).  Anyway, I printed the min time for black on Saturday, step 3 (on a 31 step wedge) merged with #2, so I multiplied by .794*.794 to get the standard print time.  I printed the ink separation on Sunday as well as the min for black test.  Sat and Sun min for black are identical.  However, while somewhat close, there is no square on the ink separation test that matches the white strip that was under rubylith on the min for black test.  On review tonight, step #3 and #4 on the min for black test are pretty close; maybe I should decrease the time.  I will rerun the tests again, will print a new ink separation sheet to insure that I did what I was supposed to, and give it all another go.  Thinking I should also include the step wedge in the ink separation to insure same results as well (you how pd can be at times).  Thank you all for advice....lyle

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: matte v. photo black

2012-02-01 by Alan Vlach

Try this. Open the ink separation page in photoshop as an adobe RGB(1998) file. Print out the image in calibration mode with the document space as adobe RGB(1998) and the printer profile (photoshop manages colors) as adobe RGB(1998). This should disable any color management. It won't print right if you make it a gray scale file (although your image files should be gray scale and use the same printing technique as stated above substituting gray gamma 2.2 for adobe RGB(1998)). It's worked for me for several processes including salted paper which requires a significantly denser negative than Pt/Pd. Consider mixing black ink and yellow ( I use equal amounts of black and yellow and equal amounts of light black and cyan as each pair blocks almost equal amounts of UV). It will give you smoother values in areas of continuous tone.

This is my text file for salted paper on a 3800 printer:



This a text file using all the inks (per Ron Reeder) on a R3000 printer for Pt/Pd:



You can see that the ink limits are pretty low for this one so you should not have a problem printing paper white. It's a shame adobe got rid of the no color management option, but everything I have read indicates that matching the document space and the printer profile effectively disables color management. You can check out Jon Cone's writing about piezography to verify this.

I know this will sound crazy, but I also had a situation using PDN a while back where I had to open a calibration file and save it as another file before it printed properly. The original file was printing with very little density and the copied file printed as expected. 

Good luck


On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:51 PM, laanyc wrote:

> 
> I thought I was using the calibration step. I believe the way I did this is to start the work around application, there is no button for 'color management' so I ASSume that there isn't any management going on (this is the reason for this app, correct?) and print from there (i, no Photoshop involved). Anyway, I printed the min time for black on Saturday, step 3 (on a 31 step wedge) merged with #2, so I multiplied by .794*.794 to get the standard print time. I printed the ink separation on Sunday as well as the min for black test. Sat and Sun min for black are identical. However, while somewhat close, there is no square on the ink separation test that matches the white strip that was under rubylith on the min for black test. On review tonight, step #3 and #4 on the min for black test are pretty close; maybe I should decrease the time. I will rerun the tests again, will print a new ink separation sheet to insure that I did what I was supposed to, and give it all another go. Thinking I should also include the step wedge in the ink separation to insure same results as well (you how pd can be at times). Thank you all for advice....lyle
> 
> 


  ----------

#  QuadToneRIP curve descriptor file
#
#  PRINTER=QUAD3800 Salted Paper
#  TPF100 Ink limit =100

PRINTER=QUAD3800
CALIBRATION=no
GRAPH_CURVE=yes

N_OF_INKS=8
DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=100

LIMIT_K=60	
BOOST_K=80
LIMIT_C=40
LIMIT_M=0
LIMIT_Y=60
LIMIT_LC=0
LIMIT_LM=0
LIMIT_LK=40
LIMIT_LLK=0
#  Describe usage of each ink
#  All inks must be listed


# Gray Partitioning Information

N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=2
GRAY_INK_1=K
GRAY_VAL_1=100

GRAY_INK_2=LK
GRAY_VAL_2=42

GRAY_INK_3=   
GRAY_VAL_3= 

GRAY_INK_4= 
GRAY_VAL_4= 

GRAY_INK_5= 
GRAY_VAL_5= 

GRAY_INK_6= 
GRAY-VAL_6= 

GRAY_INK_7= 
GRAY_VAL_7=

GRAY_INK_8=
GRAY_VAL_8= 

GRAY_HIGHLIGHT=0
GRAY_SHADOW=0

GRAY_GAMMA=1.3
GRAY_CURVE=

COPY_CURVE_C=LK
# COPY_CURVE_M=K
COPY_CURVE_Y=K

# COPY_CURVE_LC=LK
# COPY_CURVE_LM=LK


  ----------

#  QuadToneRIP curve descriptor file
#
#  for R3000 UC inks
#  Revere Platinum 
#  TPF100 Ink limit =60

N_OF_INKS=8
DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=100

Print_Curve=Yes

LIMIT_K=17	
BOOST_K=25
LIMIT_C=17	
LIMIT_M=17
LIMIT_Y=17
LIMIT_LC=46
LIMIT_LM=0
LIMIT_LK=46
LIMIT_LLK=46

#  Describe usage of each ink
#  All inks must be listed


# Gray Partitioning Information

N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=2
GRAY_INK_1=K
GRAY_VAL_1=100

GRAY_INK_2=LK
GRAY_VAL_2=33
GRAY_INK_3=
GRAY_VAL_3=

GRAY_INK_4=
GRAY_VAL_4=

GRAY_INK_5=
GRAY_VAL_5=

GRAY_INK_6=
GRAY_VAL_6=

GRAY_INK_7=
GRAY_VAL_7=

GRAY_INK_8=
GRAY_VAL_8=

GRAY_HIGHLIGHT=0
GRAY_SHADOW=10

GRAY_GAMMA=1.3

#  GRAY_CURVE=
COPY_CURVE_C=K
COPY_CURVE_M=K
COPY_CURVE_Y=K

COPY_CURVE_LC=LK
#  COPY_CURVE_LM=LK
COPY_CURVE_LLK=LK



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] matte v. photo black

2012-02-01 by Louis de Stoutz

Hello. Can anybody tell me where to find the files mentioned in Clay's 
PDF, like the inkseparationN.tif files and the B&WTest.tif "torture" file?

Thanks, Louis

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] matte v. photo black

2012-02-01 by Alan Vlach

The ink separation pages are in the folder: QuadtoneRip/Curve Design/Images.

The torture file must be one of Clay's.


On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:27 AM, Louis de Stoutz wrote:

> Hello. Can anybody tell me where to find the files mentioned in Clay's 
> PDF, like the inkseparationN.tif files and the B&WTest.tif "torture" file?
> 
> Thanks, Louis
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] matte v. photo black

2012-02-01 by Louis de Stoutz

On 01.02.2012 13:01, Alan Vlach wrote:
> The ink separation pages are in the folder: QuadtoneRip/Curve Design/Images.

Sorry, but I can't find such a path.
Nor could I find the torture file in Clay's site's download section.
???

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] matte v. photo black

2012-02-01 by Alan Vlach

If you are on a Mac, the quadtone folder is in the applications folder. If you are on a PC then I don't know. Can you do a search in the file manager? Look for inkseparation.psd. there are several ink separation images in that folder.


On Feb 1, 2012, at 9:37 AM, Louis de Stoutz wrote:

> On 01.02.2012 13:01, Alan Vlach wrote:
> > The ink separation pages are in the folder: QuadtoneRip/Curve Design/Images.
> 
> Sorry, but I can't find such a path.
> Nor could I find the torture file in Clay's site's download section.
> ???
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] matte v. photo black

2012-02-01 by Mike Finley

The original poster was on a Mac ... on a PC both the printing and 
calibration process are different, being done through the qtrgui 
application, not photoshop.

On 01/02/2012 16:52, Alan Vlach wrote:
> If you are on a Mac, the quadtone folder is in the applications folder. If you are on a PC then I don't know. Can you do a search in the file manager? Look for inkseparation.psd. there are several ink separation images in that folder.
>
>
>

-- 
mike finley photography
http://www.mikefinley.co.uk
http://words.mikefinley.co.uk

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] matte v. photo black

2012-02-01 by 228044881 228044881

On windows, open QTR. Go to tools, options, calibration mode and hit the print button.



________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 From: Alan Vlach <alanvlach@...>
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2012 5:52 AM
Subject: Re: [QuadtoneRIP] matte v. photo black
 
If you are on a Mac, the quadtone folder is in the applications folder. If you are on a PC then I don't know. Can you do a search in the file manager? Look for inkseparation.psd. there are several ink separation images in that folder.


On Feb 1, 2012, at 9:37 AM, Louis de Stoutz wrote:

> On 01.02.2012 13:01, Alan Vlach wrote:
> > The ink separation pages are in the folder: QuadtoneRip/Curve Design/Images.
> 
> Sorry, but I can't find such a path.
> Nor could I find the torture file in Clay's site's download section.
> ???
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: matte v. photo black

2012-02-05 by laanyc

Thank you all for your good advice.  I went back and reprinted the ink separation test using the GUI, the Adobe color management utility, and making the color space (Adobe 1998) the same as the printing space and got good results with all.  This time, however, I printed using the Matte Black ink on the 3880 (see Reeder, "Digital Negatives", 2010, p. 36).   I did drag out an Xrite 361 from the back of the closet and read the negatives (not sure if reading digital is appropriate here, but what the ....).  On the UV channel, the Matte Black read 4.33 on the 100% square, the PhotoBlack read 2.91.  the 70% square read 3.20 v. 2.46.  

Again, thanks for all your advise.....lyle

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