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Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-10-10 by Tom Husband

I'm creating some curves for UT7 and a 2200 printer.  I just
characterized the inks and will calibrate ink density.  Looking at the
ink pattern page it's hard to tell which are the gray inks.  The .qidf
file for EEnhMatte-cool uses black, magenta and light magenta.  Does
that mean it uses only black and then M and LM for cooling it down? 
Do I figure densities for M against K and LM against M?  It looks like
the existing curve did that.  Which positions are black?  It looks
like K, C, LC and LK.  Is that right?  If I wanted to create a neutral
curve I would figure densities for these four inks right?  It was a
lot easier when I was using the UC inks with just two blacks.

Thanks,

Tom

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-10-10 by Tom Moore

Tom

You're finding out what I learned - making curves for the UT7 inkset is a
little more complicated than the UC, but not that difficult once you've done
one.

Generally, (or at least so far) I don't use the toner curves with UT7 and
matte paper. For a cool curve for Matte the L, M and LM inks used as grey
inks. For a warm curve (again for matte paper only) the K C and LC are used
as grey inks. A neutral image is achieved by blending a warm and cool curve
when printing.

For glossy and semi gloss papers such as Epson Premium Semi Gloss, the K ink
is not used. In this case, for a cool curve for example, the M and LM are
used as the black inks and a little bit of C is used in the deep shadows to
achieve the best possible dmax. Look at the Ilford Smooth Pearl curve as an
example.

Basically, with QTR any ink position can be considered to be a grey ink. The
"K" ink is that grey ink with the greatest density - it is assigned 100%
black and the density of the others are defined with respect to that ink.

See more comments below.

HTH

Tom Moore


> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Tom Husband
> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 8:18 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating Curves UT7 and 2200
> 
> I'm creating some curves for UT7 and a 2200 printer.  I just
> characterized the inks and will calibrate ink density.  Looking at the
> ink pattern page it's hard to tell which are the gray inks.  The .qidf
> file for EEnhMatte-cool uses black, magenta and light magenta.  Does
> that mean it uses only black and then M and LM for cooling it down?

K M and LM are "considered" grey inks for the purposes of this curve.

> Do I figure densities for M against K and LM against M?  It looks like

Yes, eventually all lighter grey inks are stated with respect to K

> the existing curve did that.  Which positions are black?  It looks
> like K, C, LC and LK.

With QTR any position can be black. For an EEM cool curve, the K M and LM
inks are grey inks. Generally, the LK is not used when making curve
(although I have made a Black only curve using only K and LK). I think the
LK ink is only there to fill a slot and for those who wish to print without
curves using UT7 inks.

  Is that right?  If I wanted to create a neutral
> curve I would figure densities for these four inks right?

Not for matte papers. For those you make a cool curve using K M and LM inks
and a worm curve using K, M and LM inks and then achieve neutral by blending
a cool and a warm curve. I don't know of any curve sets for a matte paper
that have a neutral curve. There are some for RC papers.

It was a
> lot easier when I was using the UC inks with just two blacks.
> 

Easier, maybe; better, hopefully not.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-10-10 by Tom Husband

Right. That makes sense. Thanks a lot Tom. I can see where the UT7 curves will be better. I really need a custom curve as the canned ones are coming out very dark.
Thanks again,
Tom
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Moore
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

Tom

You're finding out what I learned - making curves for the UT7 inkset is a
little more complicated than the UC, but not that difficult once you've done
one.

Generally, (or at least so far) I don't use the toner curves with UT7 and
matte paper. For a cool curve for Matte the L, M and LM inks used as grey
inks. For a warm curve (again for matte paper only) the K C and LC are used
as grey inks. A neutral image is achieved by blending a warm and cool curve
when printing.

For glossy and semi gloss papers such as Epson Premium Semi Gloss, the K ink
is not used. In this case, for a cool curve for example, the M and LM are
used as the black inks and a little bit of C is used in the deep shadows to
achieve the best possible dmax. Look at the Ilford Smooth Pearl curve as an
example.

Basically, with QTR any ink position can be considered to be a grey ink. The
"K" ink is that grey ink with the greatest density - it is assigned 100%
black and the density of the others are defined with respect to that ink.

See more comments below.

HTH

Tom Moore

Re: Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-10-10 by Tom Husband

Tom,

You said the L, M and LM ink is used for the cool curve.  The existing
canned EEnhMatte-cool curve I have uses K, M and LM.  What is the "L" ink?

When I calculate the percentages do I measure the LM against L and L
against K?  Or should LM and L both be measured against K?

Thanks,

Tom

>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Tom Moore 
>   To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 7:31 PM
>   Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating Curves UT7 and 2200
> 
> 
>   Tom
> 
>   You're finding out what I learned - making curves for the UT7
inkset is a
>   little more complicated than the UC, but not that difficult once
you've done
>   one.
> 
>   Generally, (or at least so far) I don't use the toner curves with
UT7 and
>   matte paper. For a cool curve for Matte the L, M and LM inks used
as grey
>   inks....snip

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-10-10 by Daniel Staver

> Right.  That makes sense.  Thanks a lot Tom.  I can see where the UT7
curves 
> will be better. I really need a custom curve as the canned ones are coming

> out very dark.

Did you try my latest UT7 curves? I think the ones you have might be the
ones I made with an uncalibrated densitometer. For some reason those curves
worked very well for me but came out too dark for many other people.

I've since bought an X-Rite 810 and updated all my curves:

http://download.petraflux.com/qtr_ut7_matte_profiles.zip (20kb)

This includes curves for Epson Enhanced Matte, Photo Rag, Condor Brite White
and Entrada Natural.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-10-10 by Tom Husband

Thanks Daniel. I'll try them tonight.
Tom
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

> Right. That makes sense. Thanks a lot Tom. I can see where the UT7
curves
> will be better. I really need a custom curve as the canned ones are coming

> out very dark.

Did you try my latest UT7 curves? I think the ones you have might be the
ones I made with an uncalibrated densitometer. For some reason those curves
worked very well for me but came out too dark for many other people.

I've since bought an X-Rite 810 and updated all my curves:

http://download.petraflux.com/qtr_ut7_matte_profiles.zip (20kb)

This includes curves for Epson Enhanced Matte, Photo Rag, Condor Brite White
and Entrada Natural.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-10-10 by Tom Moore

Sorry, I meant K M and LM.

To measure density against K and LM against L etc. Then convert or restate
the densities related to L.

So for example if L is 60% of K and LM is 50% of L then the final statement
is:
	K 100
	L  60
	LM 30  (50% of 60%)

Measuring against the next darker ink gives a more accurate assessment.
However, QTR wants the values stated with respect to K.

Tom Moore
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Tom Husband
> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:09 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Creating Curves UT7 and 2200
> 
> Tom,
> 
> You said the L, M and LM ink is used for the cool curve.  The existing
> canned EEnhMatte-cool curve I have uses K, M and LM.  What is the "L" ink?
> 
> When I calculate the percentages do I measure the LM against L and L
> against K?  Or should LM and L both be measured against K?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom
> 
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Tom Moore
> >   To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 7:31 PM
> >   Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Creating Curves UT7 and 2200
> >
> >
> >   Tom
> >
> >   You're finding out what I learned - making curves for the UT7
> inkset is a
> >   little more complicated than the UC, but not that difficult once
> you've done
> >   one.
> >
> >   Generally, (or at least so far) I don't use the toner curves with
> UT7 and
> >   matte paper. For a cool curve for Matte the L, M and LM inks used
> as grey
> >   inks....snip
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-10-10 by Tom Husband

Got it.  Thanks Tom.

Tom

--- Tom Moore <r.t.moore@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Sorry, I meant K M and LM.

To measure density against K and LM against L etc.
Then convert or restate
the densities related to L.

So for example if L is 60% of K and LM is 50% of L
then the final statement
is:
      K 100
      L  60
      LM 30  (50% of 60%)

Measuring against the next darker ink gives a more
accurate assessment.
However, QTR wants the values stated with respect to
K.

Tom Moore

Re: Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-11-11 by michaelrosensf

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> 
> Did you try my latest UT7 curves? I think the ones you have might be the
> ones I made with an uncalibrated densitometer. For some reason those curves
> worked very well for me but came out too dark for many other people.
> 
> I've since bought an X-Rite 810 and updated all my curves:
> 
> http://download.petraflux.com/qtr_ut7_matte_profiles.zip (20kb)
> 
> This includes curves for Epson Enhanced Matte, Photo Rag, Condor Brite White
> and Entrada Natural.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
>

I down loaded them and have two questions:
1. Are these for the 2200? Looking at the .qidf files. they say PRINTER=Quad2100

2. How to install them on a Mac?  I put the .qidf files in the same folder with Roy's 2200 
installer and reran the installer by double clicking. The Terminal program reported that it 
installed Roy's two 2200 curves, but not Daniel's.

I'd just put the .quad files where they belong, but searches for .quad suffixes and parts of 
the names find nothing.

What it boils down to is I'm looking for QTR 2200 HPR curves. Sepia, as Daniel has, would 
be a bonus.

Michael

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-11-11 by Tom Moore

Michael

Since I'm on a PC I won't be much help for the details of your Mac
installation. However, I can clarify 2 things:

1. Curves for the 2100 should work fine for the 2200. 2100 is the European
designation, I believe. If you look at the 2100 curves in the distribution
they are identical to the 2100 curves. Of course looking at curves is
something you can do on a PC with QTRgui. I don't know if you can do the
same thing on a Mac.

2. The quad files go in a in a folder under QuadToneRIP\Quadtone. The name
of the subfolder is the same as the Printing Model. Once again this is on
the PC, although I think it's similar on the Mac. The quad files can be
placed in the Quad2200-UT7 printing model folder even if the qidf file says
something different.

Good luck

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of michaelrosensf
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 10:00 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com

...

> 
> I down loaded them and have two questions:
> 1. Are these for the 2200? Looking at the .qidf files. they say
> PRINTER=Quad2100
> 
> 2. How to install them on a Mac?  I put the .qidf files in the same folder
> with Roy's 2200
> installer and reran the installer by double clicking. The Terminal program
> reported that it
> installed Roy's two 2200 curves, but not Daniel's.
> 
> I'd just put the .quad files where they belong, but searches for .quad
> suffixes and parts of
> the names find nothing.
> 
> What it boils down to is I'm looking for QTR 2200 HPR curves. Sepia, as
> Daniel has, would
> be a bonus.

...

Re: Creating Curves UT7 and 2200

2005-11-13 by michaelrosensf

> > What it boils down to is I'm looking for QTR 2200 HPR curves. Sepia, as
> > Daniel has, would
> > be a bonus.

I upgraded to QTR 2.3.1 and I have what I want.

Michael

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