QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hello again,

I've had some great success with the QTR using my 2200, EEnhM paper 
and UC inks.

But after having a number of people give thumbs down on the EEnhM 
paper's archival quality (tends to yellow quickly) I have ordered 
some Moab Kayenta, partly on the recommendation of Clayton Jones in 
his "The Great Paper Chase."

I should have checked the preloaded curves that come with the RIP, 
as I don't see one for the Moab Kayenta paper with UC ink for the 
2200.

Has anyone developed any curves for this ink/paper combo for the 
E2200? If so, would they be willing to share them with a technical 
moron, namely me, who, after looking over Harrington's instructions 
on creating new curves, might as well have been looking at the 
Rosetta Stone.

Way beyond me, but I figure if Harrington could develop standard 
curves for a lot of the UC ink and various paper combos, someone may 
have done some for UC/Moab Kayenta. Obviously several different 
curves (cool, warm, etc)that could be mixed would be ideal great.

(I admit to being perplexed as to how I would enter and access that 
information to print should someone out there be able/willing to 
provide it to me.)

The RIP has solved one of my biggest problems with the 2200 - 
metamerism - but archival quality is also a necessity for me.

Again, help!

Lee Permenter
New Market, Maryland

PS: What the heck's a densitometer - a piece of equipment, a card, 
what?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of leepermenter
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:35 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] new curves for RIP
> 
> Hello again,
> 

...

> 
> PS: What the heck's a densitometer - a piece of equipment, a card,
> what?
> 
> 

...
A device that measures density. Try googling the term. You'll get all you
need.

Two commonly used devices to measure density are the Gretag Macbeth I1 or
Eye One (actually a lot more than a densitometer) and the xrite 810

Tom Moore

>I should have checked the preloaded curves that come with the RIP,
>as I don't see one for the Moab Kayenta paper with UC ink for the
>2200.

I know that this is the QTR forum but I recently did an exhibition of 17x11 black only (BO) prints on Kayenta with Eboni ink on a 2200 and was very, very pleased with the results.

I made the same prints with UC mk and found the results to be a little bit warmer then I like but still the prints looked very nice.

This was after doing much experimentation with QTR with the same ink and paper combinations.

I very much liked the BO prints and there was much less fuss and bother...

Dave.
-- 
David Keenan, ausdlk@... on 10/11/2005

Lee,
The folks at Ink Jet Solutions (where I buy my Moab Entrada) make a
BIG deal about how the Kayenta paper can be used as a proofing paper
for the more expensive Entrada. They point out that it has the very
same multilayered surface as the Entrada. So, you should get excellent
results using the Entrada curves with the Kayenta.

On a related note, when I started using the new NK7 inks from Jon
Cone, I asked Roy if he was going to have NK7 curves for the Entrada.
His reply was that the Entrada should work very nicely using the Epson
Watercolor Radiant White NK7 curves. 

Charlie


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "leepermenter" <leepermenter@y...>
wrote:

>
> Hello again,
> 
> I've had some great success with the QTR using my 2200, EEnhM paper 
> and UC inks.
> 
> But after having a number of people give thumbs down on the EEnhM 
> paper's archival quality (tends to yellow quickly) I have ordered 
> some Moab Kayenta, partly on the recommendation of Clayton Jones in 
> his "The Great Paper Chase."
> 
> I should have checked the preloaded curves that come with the RIP, 
> as I don't see one for the Moab Kayenta paper with UC ink for the 
> 2200.
> 
> Has anyone developed any curves for this ink/paper combo for the 
> E2200? If so, would they be willing to share them with a technical 
> moron, namely me, who, after looking over Harrington's instructions 
> on creating new curves, might as well have been looking at the 
> Rosetta Stone.
> 
> Way beyond me, but I figure if Harrington could develop standard 
> curves for a lot of the UC ink and various paper combos, someone may 
> have done some for UC/Moab Kayenta. Obviously several different 
> curves (cool, warm, etc)that could be mixed would be ideal great.
> 
> (I admit to being perplexed as to how I would enter and access that 
> information to print should someone out there be able/willing to 
> provide it to me.)
> 
> The RIP has solved one of my biggest problems with the 2200 - 
> metamerism - but archival quality is also a necessity for me.
> 
> Again, help!
> 
> Lee Permenter
> New Market, Maryland
> 
> PS: What the heck's a densitometer - a piece of equipment, a card, 
> what?
>

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "cvdunton" <cvdunton@v...> wrote:

> On a related note, when I started using the new NK7 inks from Jon
> Cone, I asked Roy if he was going to have NK7 curves for the Entrada.
> His reply was that the Entrada should work very nicely using the Epson
> Watercolor Radiant White NK7 curves. 
> 
> Charlie
> 
 
CORRECTION
My brain must have been asleep. Roy's recommendation for using Entrada
with the NK7 inks on and Epson 2200 was to use the HanPhotoRag curves.

Moab says to use Epson Watercolor Radiant White profiles when using
Entrada on the new Epson 2400 with the UC-K3 inks. They claim they are
working on new profiles for the Entrada, but the WC RW works so well,
they don't have it at the top of their to-do list. 

Sorry for the confusion. That's what happens sometimes when you have 2
printers and 2 print drivers/rips and different papers and....

Charlie

David,

What a coincidence. I myself have just discovered BO printing -- 
thanks to Clayton Jones. I printed one picture on my E2200 with UC 
ink and EEnh Matte paper and was floored by how good (rich, 
dramatic, luminescent, contrasty) it was. On Jones' recommendation, 
I have ordered some Eboni Matte black cartridges and Kayenta paper 
and can't wait to try them out with the BO method. I agree it is 
super easy and produces a real fine-art level print.

I would say, however, that for some of my images, the RIP may be 
best. When images contain large areas of smooth mid tones (such as 
still water or sky created with the Photoshop gradient tool), the 
dot pattern produced by the BO method is pretty apparent, whereas 
with the RIP, the smoothness is retained. 

Thanks for the input.

Best,

Lee 

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, David Keenan <ausdlk@s...> wrote:
>
> >I should have checked the preloaded curves that come with the RIP,
> >as I don't see one for the Moab Kayenta paper with UC ink for the
> >2200.
> 
> I know that this is the QTR forum but I recently did an exhibition 
of 17x11 black only (BO) prints on Kayenta with Eboni ink on a 2200 
and was very, very pleased with the results.
> 
> I made the same prints with UC mk and found the results to be a 
little bit warmer then I like but still the prints looked very nice.
> 
> This was after doing much experimentation with QTR with the same 
ink and paper combinations.
> 
> I very much liked the BO prints and there was much less fuss and 
bother...

> 
> Dave.
> -- 
> David Keenan, ausdlk@s... on 10/11/2005
>

Hi Charlie,

Did you report on the similarities and differences between a
linearized printer using K7 and the Epson K3 inkset? I am especially
how you view smoothness and dmax in both of these sets. Do you achieve
aprox the same blacks from both?

John




That's what happens sometimes when you have 2

> printers and 2 print drivers/rips and different papers and....
> 
> Charlie
>

>I would say, however, that for some of my images, the RIP may be
>best. When images contain large areas of smooth mid tones (such as
>still water or sky created with the Photoshop gradient tool), the
>dot pattern produced by the BO method is pretty apparent, whereas
>with the RIP, the smoothness is retained.

Lee --

I concur that a RIP has it's place. All the current users of QTR (and other RIP's) can't be wrong.

My images tend to be kind of gritty and I like grainy effects. And my recent exhibition had rather large prints, 17x11. I think that any dittering dots pattern in BO are less apparent on larger prints, particularly when viewed from a normal viewing distance.

Anyway, fortunately today there is more then one way to skin the black & white inkjet print cat.

Dave.
-- 
David Keenan, ausdlk@... on 10/12/2005

John,
I thought I knew at least a little something about monochrome
printing, but appearently not. At least not where the K7 inks are
concerned. Others have raved about them, but at this point, I'm a bit
disappointed. I'll grant you they are wonderfully smooth, and totally
dotless, at least to my eyes under 2x magnification, but for me, the
translation from monitor to paper appears really flat. The Dmax looks
disappointly low but I don't have a densitometer, so it's all
emperical at this point.

BUT, others have written glowing reports. And that's what led me to
this group. I'm hoping that I can figure out what is causing me to get
results that I'm getting.

At the moment, I'm getting much better results using the latest
version of QTR with my R2400 and the K3 inks.

Charlie


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:

>
> Hi Charlie,
> 
> Did you report on the similarities and differences between a
> linearized printer using K7 and the Epson K3 inkset? I am especially
> how you view smoothness and dmax in both of these sets. Do you achieve
> aprox the same blacks from both?
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what happens sometimes when you have 2
> > printers and 2 print drivers/rips and different papers and....
> > 
> > Charlie
> >
>

Charlie,

It is interesting to read about your experience with k7 after Jon 
Cone's statements about how much more advanced are his curves. It is 
not the first careful negative response on k7 about DMax that I see. 
Is it about using k7 with QTR or in their environment? I am trying 
to understand how much of Cone's declarations is just a plain 
commercial bluff. After all he should be quite aggressive to sell 
his inks that are more than twice more expensive than MIS inks are.

--Sergei

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "cvdunton" <cvdunton@v...> wrote:
>
> John,
> I thought I knew at least a little something about monochrome
> printing, but appearently not. At least not where the K7 inks are
> concerned. Others have raved about them, but at this point, I'm a 
bit
> disappointed. I'll grant you they are wonderfully smooth, and 
totally
> dotless, at least to my eyes under 2x magnification, but for me, 
the
> translation from monitor to paper appears really flat. The Dmax 
looks
> disappointly low but I don't have a densitometer, so it's all
> emperical at this point.
> 
> BUT, others have written glowing reports. And that's what led me to
> this group. I'm hoping that I can figure out what is causing me to 
get

> results that I'm getting.
> 
> At the moment, I'm getting much better results using the latest
> version of QTR with my R2400 and the K3 inks.
> 
> Charlie

Sergei,
I would like to believe that the problem lies with me, rather than the
K7 inks. I really want to like these inks. I don't think the problem
lies with QTR. I'm really impressed with that piece of software. I
also think the fact that Jon was willing to hang is reputation on a
$50 piece of shareware that he didn't write says volumes about the
quality of QTR.

Maybe I'm just a Neanderthal who likes more contrast in his prints
than the experts. I will say, however, that with high key images, K7
looks pretty good to me. It really comes into it's own with the
lightest shades of gray. So, I'll keep trying.

I suppose I could add a curves layer and crank up the contrast. The
problem with that is that I really like the way the image looks on the
monitor (calibrated and profiled) without extra contrast. So, adding
extra contrast means you're sort of flying blind until you check the
print. 

As for the cost compared to the MIS inks, it looks to me like the K7
carts would be a piece of cake to refill. Buy a syringe, needle,
bottom feed adapter and chip reseter from MIS and you should be good
to go. I'm just not willing to experiment with that until I get better
results from the K7 inks. 

Has anyone tried refilling the K7 carts yet? 

Charlie


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "santonov2you"
<antonovsergei@h...> wrote:

>
> Charlie,
> 
> It is interesting to read about your experience with k7 after Jon 
> Cone's statements about how much more advanced are his curves. It is 
> not the first careful negative response on k7 about DMax that I see. 
> Is it about using k7 with QTR or in their environment? I am trying 
> to understand how much of Cone's declarations is just a plain 
> commercial bluff. After all he should be quite aggressive to sell 
> his inks that are more than twice more expensive than MIS inks are.
> 
> --Sergei
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "cvdunton" <cvdunton@v...> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> > I thought I knew at least a little something about monochrome
> > printing, but appearently not. At least not where the K7 inks are
> > concerned. Others have raved about them, but at this point, I'm a 
> bit
> > disappointed. I'll grant you they are wonderfully smooth, and 
> totally
> > dotless, at least to my eyes under 2x magnification, but for me, 
> the
> > translation from monitor to paper appears really flat. The Dmax 
> looks
> > disappointly low but I don't have a densitometer, so it's all
> > emperical at this point.
> > 
> > BUT, others have written glowing reports. And that's what led me to
> > this group. I'm hoping that I can figure out what is causing me to 
> get
> > results that I'm getting.
> > 
> > At the moment, I'm getting much better results using the latest
> > version of QTR with my R2400 and the K3 inks.
> > 
> > Charlie
>