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C6C base on inkjet papers

C6C base on inkjet papers

2016-03-08 by janbecket.net@...

When MIS shifted the Eboni 6 formulation, I decided to also shift my base from C6B to C6C. This is the base formulated by Paul Rorark primarily for use on Arches traditional watercolor paper. I downloaded the set of curves from his website, linearized w/ my Colormunki and got perfect, straight-line graphs on the first try. I like the images Iʻm getting on Arches Aquarelle Hot Press with the curves.

On the downside, I need to make some larger prints for an upcoming exhibit on my usual roll paper, Epson Hot Press Natural. I cannot come up with anything better than a lumpy, misshapen graph. I was lucky to get even that - most of the day I received the message that the curve could not be created because the L values were not increasing at a constant rate. Never had that problem before w/ the Colormunki.

The EbVT-EpsonHPn-carbon curve I downloaded printed so dark in QER Calibration Mode that my Colormunki could not distinguish among most of the lower values, and in fact the ink was visibly puddling on the paper. I finally ended up setting ink limits to 25 - and the resulting print was still very dark. With the curve I obtained, the prints are now far too light. Something is not working ...

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

The L values I obtained, such as they are, from the 21-step wedge are as follows:

96.546355 91.597322 72.622701 65.389964 54.04039 46.870139 40.510065 36.751712 34.591375 30.365277 26.656638 22.814636 20.605356 19.527912 19.167863 18.58482 17.55425 17.256046 16.923388 16.529925 16.253277


Re: C6C base on inkjet papers

2016-03-08 by richard@...

It sounds like you are changing too many things but not really knowing where to start.

One of the reasons you might be having problems is that by changing the base, you are also changing the Dmax in relation to the cross over point with the next darker ink. That will cause the bumpy gradients. You can also use the Gray_Overlap= setting to have ore coverage from one ink to the next. that helps smooth out the bumps as well. You will need to increase the gray_gamma= setting to offset the affect of more ink coverage. I generally increase the gamma = to whatever the over lap is. ex: if overlap is 30, then I set to gray gamma to 1.3

You should really be building the profiles from the ground up if you are using this system. I know paul published a lot of profiles, but printer inconsistencies and changing variables can lead to lots of head scratching and wasted paper.

I realize you have an exhibition coming up and you need to get this done and don't have time to start from scratch so I put your string of measurements through my gray curve correction tool and it does show some flat spots that are causing the problems with the linearization.

He is what I would like you to do: Go back to the original settings you used to arrive at the values you posted above.

Then paste this correction curve into the Gray_Curve= Line of the ink descriptor file or the QTRgui if on windows.

Gray_Curve="0;0 5;4.05599831320583 10;5.81168282623405 15;6.86958377192356 20;7.92748471761307 25;8.98538566330258 30;10.1135596386264 35;12.8888948263984 40;15.4232935086374 45;17.1919298909369 50;18.9605662732363 55;21.1542328852923 60;23.9537540596557 65;26.976615916733 70;30.2246523942801 75;35.9840258718894 80;42.6969114298816 85;47.7881364295635 90;53.0896043260779 95;61.5658591072947 100;100 "

Then delete whatever you have in the Linearize= line.

Then print your 21 step target again, measure, and the linearize with the new readings (you must always keep the gray curve values in there as well though)

That should smooth out and linearize the profile. You can find that correction curve tool here for future reference: QTR-Correction-Curve-Tool
QTR-Correction-Curve-Tool
A free downloadable spreadsheet template useful for creating QuadToneRIP grayscale correction curves for inkjet prints and digital nega...
View on www.bwmaster...
Preview by Yahoo


Hope that helps.
Richard Boutwell

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] C6C base on inkjet papers

2016-03-08 by Paul Roark

What printer and computer platform are you using? Is the ink arrangement standard Eboni-6 or one of the variants?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 11:53 PM, janbecket.net@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When MIS shifted the Eboni 6 formulation, I decided to also shift my base from C6B to C6C. This is the base formulated by Paul Rorark primarily for use on Arches traditional watercolor paper. I downloaded the set of curves from his website, linearized w/ my Colormunki and got perfect, straight-line graphs on the first try. I like the images Iʻm getting on Arches Aquarelle Hot Press with the curves.

On the downside, I need to make some larger prints for an upcoming exhibit on my usual roll paper, Epson Hot Press Natural. I cannot come up with anything better than a lumpy, misshapen graph. I was lucky to get even that - most of the day I received the message that the curve could not be created because the L values were not increasing at a constant rate. Never had that problem before w/ the Colormunki.

The EbVT-EpsonHPn-carbon curve I downloaded printed so dark in QER Calibration Mode that my Colormunki could not distinguish among most of the lower values, and in fact the ink was visibly puddling on the paper. I finally ended up setting ink limits to 25 - and the resulting print was still very dark. With the curve I obtained, the prints are now far too light. Something is not working ...

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

The L values I obtained, such as they are, from the 21-step wedge are as follows:

96.546355 91.597322 72.622701 65.389964 54.04039 46.870139 40.510065 36.751712 34.591375 30.365277 26.656638 22.814636 20.605356 19.527912 19.167863 18.58482 17.55425 17.256046 16.923388 16.529925 16.253277



Re: C6C base on inkjet papers

2016-03-09 by janbecket.net@...

Hi Paul. Iʻm using a Mac running OSX 10.10.5 and the printer is a 4880. The set of inks is based on a dilution you mentioned in another message here relating to Arches and Eb6 / C6C. I think you are calling these dilutions Carbon-6, to distinguish them from the standard MIS Ebon-6 dilution.

Y = Eboni MK (100%)



LM = Eb6-LM (6%)

LC = Eb6-LC (9%)

M = Eb6-M (18%)

C = Eb6-C (30%)



LLK = light blue toner (13.75% Canon Lucia Blue, 11.25% Canon Lucia Cyan [note this is a 55%-45% color pigment blend], and 75% clear base [C6b])



LK = Eb6-C (30%)

K = Eboni MK


This is a slightly different sequence than the one in your pdf "Eboni Carbon Variable-Tone Black-and Whte Inkset, Epson 3800 / 3880 Printers" The ink configuration there switches the Y and LLK inks, so that the blue/cyan toner is in the Y position. The configuration above has worked very nicely with your Arches 3880 profiles. Thanks again for making them available.


I have installed your variable tone 3800/3880profiles, but have put solvent in the LLK / tone position for now, until I obtain the blue / cyan inks. Iʻm not using curves #2 & #3 for now. As I mentioned, I have only printed on Arches up to this point, and now need to linearize and use the profile EbVT-EpsonHPn-carbon.


I did attempt to build the curve for Epson Hot Press Neutral from the ground up, but ran into a hitch with the second printing of the ink pattern page in calibration mode. My black ink limit is 45, but the page prints out with 2-3 random patches of much darker ink in each of the light - dark sequences for each of the ink channels. Never seen that before. Maybe because of the non-standard ink setup?


- Jan




---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <roark.paul@...> wrote :

What printer and computer platform are you using? Is the ink arrangement standard Eboni-6 or one of the variants?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 11:53 PM, janbecket.net@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When MIS shifted the Eboni 6 formulation, I decided to also shift my base from C6B to C6C. This is the base formulated by Paul Rorark primarily for use on Arches traditional watercolor paper. I downloaded the set of curves from his website, linearized w/ my Colormunki and got perfect, straight-line graphs on the first try. I like the images Iʻm getting on Arches Aquarelle Hot Press with the curves.

On the downside, I need to make some larger prints for an upcoming exhibit on my usual roll paper, Epson Hot Press Natural. I cannot come up with anything better than a lumpy, misshapen graph. I was lucky to get even that - most of the day I received the message that the curve could not be created because the L values were not increasing at a constant rate. Never had that problem before w/ the Colormunki.

The EbVT-EpsonHPn-carbon curve I downloaded printed so dark in QER Calibration Mode that my Colormunki could not distinguish among most of the lower values, and in fact the ink was visibly puddling on the paper. I finally ended up setting ink limits to 25 - and the resulting print was still very dark. With the curve I obtained, the prints are now far too light. Something is not working ...

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

The L values I obtained, such as they are, from the 21-step wedge are as follows:

96.54635591.59732272.62270165.38996454.0403946.87013940.51006536.75171234.59137530.36527726.65663822.81463620.60535619.52791219.16786318.5848217.5542517.25604616.92338816.52992516.253277



Re: C6C base on inkjet papers

2016-03-09 by janbecket.net@...

Thanks very much for the suggestions, Richard. Iʻm working through them now and will let you know if I can manage to wring a decent print out of the profile. You are right about that head-scratching thing.

I have not needed to build QTR curves for a couple of years — until the MIS Eboni-6 formula changed. I was not aware of the QTR correction curve tool. Thanks for that link! I downloaded it and it looks like it will make curve building go more smoothly.

- Jan

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: C6C base on inkjet papers

2016-03-09 by Paul Roark

Is it possible you are using the Epson HP curve from the 7800 Eb VT instead of the 3880 version? That would be somewhat consistent with the densities your getting.

Also, be sure you're not using the Y position and that second MK.

The random dark patches sound like trouble that goes beyond the profiles. If this is the same inkset that worked well for the Arches, it makes me wonder what could have happened between the two.

Do you have an agitation routine? I pull carts once every one or two weeks, agitate them, and then let them sit overnight (or for a few hours) before turning on the machine. I then at a minimum print a purge pattern once a week.

With the 4880, I don't think you need to bother with the C6C as opposed to the C6B. Getting that other surfactant can be difficult. The only saw differences with the 1400 and Arches. If properly mixed, however, the profiles for all the bases are the same. The base does not significantly affect what profile is needed.

If a new batch of ink was mixed between the two, some mistake in mixing might have happened. Also, I at least once saw some problems that appeared to be causes by too little stirring of the chemicals. Some of these fluids need to be mixed almost like they are solids in the sense that they'll lump together if not thoroughly mixed at the outset.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 4:08 PM, janbecket.net@... [QuadtoneRIP] <;QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Paul. Iʻm using a Mac running OSX 10.10.5 and the printer is a 4880. The set of inks is based on a dilution you mentioned in another message here relating to Arches and Eb6 / C6C. I think you are calling these dilutions Carbon-6, to distinguish them from the standard MIS Ebon-6 dilution.

Y = Eboni MK (100%)



LM = Eb6-LM (6%)

LC = Eb6-LC (9%)

M = Eb6-M (18%)

C = Eb6-C (30%)



LLK = light blue toner (13.75% Canon Lucia Blue, 11.25% Canon Lucia Cyan [note this is a 55%-45% color pigment blend], and 75% clear base [C6b])



LK = Eb6-C (30%)

K = Eboni MK


This is a slightly different sequence than the one in your pdf "Eboni Carbon Variable-Tone Black-and Whte Inkset, Epson 3800 / 3880 Printers" The ink configuration there switches the Y and LLK inks, so that the blue/cyan toner is in the Y position. The configuration above has worked very nicely with your Arches 3880 profiles. Thanks again for making them available.


I have installed your variable tone 3800/3880profiles, but have put solvent in the LLK / tone position for now, until I obtain the blue / cyan inks. Iʻm not using curves #2 & #3 for now. As I mentioned, I have only printed on Arches up to this point, and now need to linearize and use the profile EbVT-EpsonHPn-carbon.


I did attempt to build the curve for Epson Hot Press Neutral from the ground up, but ran into a hitch with the second printing of the ink pattern page in calibration mode. My black ink limit is 45, but the page prints out with 2-3 random patches of much darker ink in each of the light - dark sequences for each of the ink channels. Never seen that before. Maybe because of the non-standard ink setup?


- Jan




---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

What printer and computer platform are you using? Is the ink arrangement standard Eboni-6 or one of the variants?

Paul

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 11:53 PM, janbecket.net@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

When MIS shifted the Eboni 6 formulation, I decided to also shift my base from C6B to C6C. This is the base formulated by Paul Rorark primarily for use on Arches traditional watercolor paper. I downloaded the set of curves from his website, linearized w/ my Colormunki and got perfect, straight-line graphs on the first try. I like the images Iʻm getting on Arches Aquarelle Hot Press with the curves.

On the downside, I need to make some larger prints for an upcoming exhibit on my usual roll paper, Epson Hot Press Natural. I cannot come up with anything better than a lumpy, misshapen graph. I was lucky to get even that - most of the day I received the message that the curve could not be created because the L values were not increasing at a constant rate. Never had that problem before w/ the Colormunki.

The EbVT-EpsonHPn-carbon curve I downloaded printed so dark in QER Calibration Mode that my Colormunki could not distinguish among most of the lower values, and in fact the ink was visibly puddling on the paper. I finally ended up setting ink limits to 25 - and the resulting print was still very dark. With the curve I obtained, the prints are now far too light. Something is not working ...

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

The L values I obtained, such as they are, from the 21-step wedge are as follows:

96.54635591.59732272.62270165.38996454.0403946.87013940.51006536.75171234.59137530.36527726.65663822.81463620.60535619.52791219.16786318.5848217.5542517.25604616.92338816.52992516.253277




Re: C6C base on inkjet papers

2016-03-09 by janbecket.net@...

Richard, the curve correction tool did the trick - the curve is not quite a straight line, but not far off. I ended up re-printing the 21k-step patches, re-scanning - just to be sure - and then went through the steps you outlined. No need for a gamma or overlap tweak, unless I see some issues in the prints.

Nice to know I might actually make the exhibit deadline.

Thanks again,
- Jan

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: C6C base on inkjet papers

2016-03-10 by janbecket.net@...

The profile EbVT-EpsonHPn-carbon is from the 3880 zip file, and when I look, the two unused inks listed near the bottom are K and LLK. LK and LLK are listed as toner inks 1 and 2. Donʻt think I changed anything there, but if so, that might explain a few things.

Thanks for reminding me about agitating the carts before use. I had not done that, which could explain the uneven progression of tones. I agitated the carts and then got a nice tonal gradation from Keith Carterʻs profile B&W test image (www.northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html)

— J

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