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P800 ink limit

P800 ink limit

2016-03-17 by gheim5@...

Dear all,

I bought my first Epson printer a few weeks ago and have just started getting into QTR. Frankly speaking, this group and QTR were the decisive factors to plunge into this adventure vs. going (on) for the commercial suppliers route (with almost no control over anything). Thank you very much!

My equipment:
Epson P800 (genuine Epson ink)
Epson Archiveal Matte paper (for the sake of cheap trials)
Vipdens C5 densitometer

I try to create a linear black-only curve (following Lou Dina’s tutorial) as a first exercise - getting used to the parameters, formatting, etc. Unfortunately, my trials already come to halt at the very first step: Determination of ink limit.

I measure the following density values (K):
0% 0
5% 0.45
10% 0.83
15% 1.16
20% 1.38
25% 1.58
30% 1.77
35% 1.95
40% 2.06
45% 2.17
50% 2.26
55% 2.35
60% 2.41
65% 2.47
70% 2.50
75% 2.54
80% 2.58
85% 2.59
90% 2.60
95% 2.63
100% 2.61

(1) I didn’t expect a Dmax much higher than 2.2 and am wondering if my densitometer has a problem (or if I am misinterpreting the indicated values). The densitometer was serviced last year and yield perfect values when measuring the references (which are brand new). What's your opinion?

(2) Where would you set the ink limit and black boost?

I’d highly appreciate your support. I was trying to solve this on my own by reading through many discussions and all tutorials that I could find - all in vain.

All the best, from Europe,
Glenn

P.S. Density of LK: 1.51 and LLK: 0.85 at 100%.

Re: P800 ink limit

2016-03-18 by richard@...

Welcome, and its good to see someone diving right in to making their own QTR profiles.

These densities are correct. Some people might recommend setting the ink limits as high as possible. I disagree with that to some extent. There is really nothing to be gained from having a max as high as 2.6. Personally, I usually set the ink limit and black boost to produce a final density of 2.4. That is denser than any gelatin silver print, and produces an inkjet print with very rich blacks while maintaining shadow separation.

Here is an idea of my starting point for glossy papers (this is canson platine) with my P800. From here you can start adding small amounts of color inks for toning partitions to neutralize some of the warm green of the K3 inks.

# QuadToneRIP curve descriptor file
#
# for ultrachrome k3 inks

PRINTER=QuadP800
GRAPH_CURVE=YES
N_OF_INKS=8
DEFAULT_INK_LIMIT=0

LIMIT_K=55
BOOST_K=
LIMIT_C=0
LIMIT_M=0
LIMIT_Y=0
LIMIT_LC=0
LIMIT_LM=0
LIMIT_LK=55
LIMIT_LLK=55

# Gray Partitioning Information

N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=3
GRAY_INK_1=K
GRAY_VAL_1=100

GRAY_INK_2=LK
GRAY_VAL_2=35.8539

GRAY_INK_3=LLK
GRAY_VAL_3=10.7516

# Gray Curve Information

GRAY_HIGHLIGHT=8
GRAY_SHADOW=24

GRAY_GAMMA=1.2
GRAY_CURVE=



------

Hope that helps,
Richard Boutwell

http://www.richardboutwell.com/


Re: [QuadtoneRIP] P800 ink limit

2016-03-18 by Paul Roark

If you are printing on "Archival" Matte and getting those density numbers, I'd say your densitometer is giving false readings. They are considerably too high for a matte paper. If people really are getting those densities on matte paper with the new Epson, I might have to buy some of that ink.

Assuming the relative numbers are correct, an ink limit of 75 and the black boost set to 95 might be what I'd do. The boost puts a little steeper slope on the final segment of the black curve. Also, a lower ink limit makes the black ramp printed at the ink limit (the second Calibration Mode print) a slight bit easier to read.

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 4:32 PM, gheim5@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dear all,

I bought my first Epson printer a few weeks ago and have just started getting into QTR. Frankly speaking, this group and QTR were the decisive factors to plunge into this adventure vs. going (on) for the commercial suppliers route (with almost no control over anything). Thank you very much!

My equipment:
Epson P800 (genuine Epson ink)
Epson Archiveal Matte paper (for the sake of cheap trials)
Vipdens C5 densitometer

I try to create a linear black-only curve (following Lou Dina’s tutorial) as a first exercise - getting used to the parameters, formatting, etc. Unfortunately, my trials already come to halt at the very first step: Determination of ink limit.

I measure the following density values (K):
0% 0
5% 0.45
10% 0.83
15% 1.16
20% 1.38
25% 1.58
30% 1.77
35% 1.95
40% 2.06
45% 2.17
50% 2.26
55% 2.35
60% 2.41
65% 2.47
70% 2.50
75% 2.54
80% 2.58
85% 2.59
90% 2.60
95% 2.63
100% 2.61

(1) I didn’t expect a Dmax much higher than 2.2 and am wondering if my densitometer has a problem (or if I am misinterpreting the indicated values). The densitometer was serviced last year and yield perfect values when measuring the references (which are brand new). What's your opinion?

(2) Where would you set the ink limit and black boost?

I’d highly appreciate your support. I was trying to solve this on my own by reading through many discussions and all tutorials that I could find - all in vain.

All the best, from Europe,
Glenn

P.S. Density of LK: 1.51 and LLK: 0.85 at 100%.


Re: P800 ink limit

2016-03-18 by richard@...

I didn't see that the paper mentioned was a matte paper, but I did take a look at some measurements of my ink separation images with gloss papers and the densities you posted above are close to what I am getting. (Canson Platine maxes out at 2.9 at 90% and then falls back down to 2.8 at 100%).

Be careful setting a boost up to 90-100 because matte papers tend to lose density when they are flooded with ink.

I took a look at a few other papers I've measured and profiled. These are all the OEM Matte Black channel with the ink limit set to 100%, and are meant to just give you some idea about what you should expect with the P800 and matte papers.

Moab Entrada Natural and Bright White go up to 1.59 at 50%, then max out at ~1.64 at 65% and then fall back down to ~1.60 at 100%.

Premier Art Smooth hits 1.68 @ 50%, maxes out to 1.71 @ 65% and falls off to 1.68 @ 100%.

Canson Edition Etching does a little better. It hits 1.66 at 50%, 1.71 @ 65%, and maxes out to 1.74 @ 85% and then doesn't fall off as it reaches 100%.

If you are going to get into this you might consider finding a used i1 Pro 1 for profiling. I just got a SpyderPrint measurement device to format my profiling tools and workflow for it, and it doesn't perform as well or make the process as easy as the i1. I taught a private QTR workshop yesterday and they had an i1 Pro 2, and, in some ways, was not as nice to use as the older version.

Hope that helps,
Richard Boutwell

http://www.richardboutwell.com/

Re: P800 ink limit

2016-03-19 by gheim5@...

Thanks for the warm welcome.

That is really strange. My densitometer (http://www.fag.ch/products/pdf/FAG%20C5%20GB.pdf) gives correct readings (± 0.01D) for all reference check specimens (zeroed on white, then reading of C, Y, M, K using appropriate filtration). When comparing the appearance of the black specimen (1.63D) to the darkest patches of the 21 step (> 2.50D) that I printed (see first post, on Epson Archival Matte) - the latter look much, much darker (velvety, pitch black) - thus underpinning the meter's readings (?!).

I am aware that inks on matte papers normally don't lead to those values and it is not my intention to insist on the correctness of the readings.

Is there a quick way without requiring additional hardware to check if the densitometer is in working order aside from checking with the references?

Could it be an operator issue? I don't use a color filtration but "K" setting.

I am as new to the Epson and QTR as I am to using a reflective light densitometer. Do you know of any good tutorials, 101s, literature, etc.? I am not looking for a step-by-step guide primarily but for something that explains all the parameters, mechanisms, etc.

Re: P800 ink limit

2016-06-14 by gheim5@...

I am wondering if somebody would help me by measuring one of my test prints (a few patches). I had my densitometer checked and everything looked fine. Unfortunately, densities > 2 on matte paper do not sound correct.

Looking forward to hearing from you guys.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: P800 ink limit

2016-06-14 by Myron Gochnauer

I’m certainly willing to help, if my location (New Brunswick, Canada) isn’t on the opposite side of the globe.

I use an Xrite ColorMunki Photo and/or an older densitometer (made by Xrite I think) that does both transmission and reflective measurements.

Sitting quietly with dogs
Myron Gochnauer
goch@unb.ca


On Jun 14, 2016, at 6:27 PM, gheim5@yahoo.com [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I am wondering if somebody would help me by measuring one of my test prints (a few patches). I had my densitometer checked and everything looked fine. Unfortunately, densities > 2 on matte paper do not sound correct.

Looking forward to hearing from you guys.


Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: P800 ink limit

2016-06-17 by gheim5@...

Dear Myron,

Thanks for your offer. I'm almost on the "opposite side of the globe" but as I am in no hurry, it doesn't matter to me. Could you please get in touch with me via: kotuku@posteo.nz in order to exchange contact details?

If someone else wants to join, please feel free to send an email. I am also willing to measure densities.

Regards,
Glenn

Re: P800 ink limit

2016-06-17 by gheim5@...

To complete my email address just replace ... with posteo (dot) nz

Re: P800 ink limit

2016-06-17 by jeff.grant@...

Sorry to arrive late to this. I'm in Australia, and will happily measure anything you want. Send me an email at jeff-grant.com.

Re: P800 ink limit

2017-01-22 by gheim5@...

Jeff, thank you very much for measuring my samples. Paul and Richard, thank you for your advise. This is a great community and I hope that I can contribute some day too.

Due to a (forced) shift in priorities I didn't print anything since my last post but will resume calibration and printing now. I scrapped my densitometer in the meantime (ouch $$$) and invested in a new one (Heiland TRD). This reads values in congruence to Jeff's densitometer. Perfect.

Next steps are (mastering the steep learning curve):
- Build a linear printing profile for K-only
- Build a linear printing profile for K3 without toning
- ...

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