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Banding On the Epson P800

Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-28 by jthacker@...

I printed out the QTR ink separation file on our new P800. There is significant banding most visible in the lighter tones. I'm reluctant to start making curves for alternative processes we support (Silver, Carbon, and Pd/Pt, etc,) as the artifacts may be unacceptable. Has anyone else seen this banding? And built a curve for making negatives?

Cheers,

John


PhotoCentral, Hayward CA

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-28 by Keith Schreiber

John,

First, have you run a nozzle check to be certain all nozzles are firing?

Second, there was a thread about QTR digital negatives and the P800 just a few days ago. It’s a good place to start. 

Cheers,
Keith

Keith Schreiber
jkschreiber.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Jul 28, 2016, at 3:22 PM, jthacker@pacbell.net [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I printed out the QTR ink separation file on our new P800. There is significant banding most visible in the lighter tones. I'm reluctant to start making curves for alternative processes we support (Silver, Carbon, and Pd/Pt, etc,) as the artifacts may be unacceptable. Has anyone else seen this banding? And built a curve for making negatives?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> PhotoCentral, Hayward CA
> 
> 
>

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-28 by philbond87@...

I'm the person who started the thread a couple of days ago regarding using the P800 to make digital negatives with QTR.

I've not experienced any apparent banding issues but I haven't printed the ink separation file either.

I'm currently working on developing a decent base profile. I'm right around the corner form you (in Alameda and at Mills College) so if you'd like to compare notes let me know.
_
Phil

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-29 by Walker Blackwell

Dear Phil. Looking under a loup directly on the neg, do you see micro-banding in the head direction compared to the same print from a different printer?

-walker
Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Thursday, July 28, 2016, philbond87@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm the person who started the thread a couple of days ago regarding using the P800 to make digital negatives with QTR.


I've not experienced any apparent banding issues but I haven't printed the ink separation file either.

I'm currently working on developing a decent base profile. I'm right around the corner form you (in Alameda and at Mills College) so if you'd like to compare notes let me know.
_
Phil

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-29 by Roy Harrington

Walker has mentioned something like this. But so far I'm not convinced.
I should have a P800 running by next week. It will be my main machine so it is
a priority for me -- (don't do negatives though).

So, John, if you have very specific details and demonstrable issues
please email info directly so I can look into it.

Roy


On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Walker Blackwell forums@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Dear Phil. Looking under a loup directly on the neg, do you see micro-banding in the head direction compared to the same print from a different printer?

-walker
Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Thursday, July 28, 2016, philbond87@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm the person who started the thread a couple of days ago regarding using the P800 to make digital negatives with QTR.


I've not experienced any apparent banding issues but I haven't printed the ink separation file either.

I'm currently working on developing a decent base profile. I'm right around the corner form you (in Alameda and at Mills College) so if you'd like to compare notes let me know.
_
Phil






--

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-29 by philbond87@...

Walker,

If pressed I will say that I have felt that I've seen some level of what I guess you might micro banding on my 3880 – something I don't see with my Z3200 (which I have spent some time with making negs). I don't see the "micro banding" in either printer on paper positives.

The negs on the P800 seem better than the 3880 to me so far but I am using different profiles.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-29 by <jthacker@...>

Phil,Yes I would like to get together. I'll be working at PhotoCentral this coming Saturday but then out for a week or so. Let me know your availability.Our main interest at the moment is carbon and Pt/Pd printing and we are primarily using an Epson 9900. Cheers, John 

    On Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:36 PM, "philbond87@... [QuadtoneRIP]" <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

     I'm the person who started the thread a couple of days ago regarding using the P800 to make digital negatives with QTR.
I've not experienced any apparent banding issues but I haven't printed the ink separation file either.
I'm currently working on developing a decent base profile. I'm right around the corner form you (in Alameda and at Mills College) so if you'd like to compare notes let me know._Phil  #yiv0726074541 #yiv0726074541 -- #yiv0726074541ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv0726074541 #yiv0726074541ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv0726074541 #yiv0726074541ygrp-mkp #yiv0726074541hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv0726074541 #yiv0726074541ygrp-mkp #yiv0726074541ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv0726074541 #yiv0726074541ygrp-mkp .yiv0726074541ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv0726074541 #yiv0726074541ygrp-mkp .yiv0726074541ad p {margin:0;}#yiv0726074541 #yiv0726074541ygrp-mkp .yiv0726074541ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv0726074541 #yiv0726074541ygrp-sponsor #yiv0726074541ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv0726074541 #yiv0726074541ygrp-sponsor #yiv0726074541ygrp-lc #yiv0726074541hd {margin:10px 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Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-29 by Walker Blackwell

Thanks

On Friday, July 29, 2016, philbond87@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text

Walker,


If pressed I will say that I have felt that I've seen some level of what I guess you might micro banding on my 3880 – something I don't see with my Z3200 (which I have spent some time with making negs). I don't see the "micro banding" in either printer on paper positives.

The negs on the P800 seem better than the 3880 to me so far but I am using different profiles.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-29 by Paul Roark

>; ... If pressed I will say that I have felt that I've seen some level of what I guess you might micro banding on my 3880 – something I don't see with my Z3200 ...

I think if we look closely enough we can see the artifacts of our printer types. A very good owner of a pro printing service in Los Angeles switched to Canon because, he claimed, if you look closely at *any* Epson output you'd see microbanding. I think I agree with him to a certain extent. On the other hand, when I looked at the output of a Canon I had for a while to experiment with, I saw what I might characterize as a "herring bone" pattern.

As far as I know, we don't have a good objective metric to compare the various sources of artifacts. I doubt there is a single measure. Conceptually, maybe it's part of a "signal to noise" ratio, which I'm always trying to improve, but the type of noise varies, and some noise is more annoying than others. I prefer a little "grain" to microbanding, for example. Maybe that is just because I'm coming from the film days, and the "grain" we see in our work is tiny compared to what we dealt with in the past.

So, lacking a way to objectively keep track of the artifacts, I simply use 2 pairs of reading glasses and a bright light. Then I make a subjective decision about whether one approach or another makes me happier.

I do recall seeing more of the artifacts with the clear substrates (digital interneg "film") than with paper. In fact, I thought they were so bad in the beginning of this inkjet period that I used the Fujix Pictrography machine (400 true 24 bit RGB PPI; Samy's had one) to make 8x10" digital internegatives that could be enlarged to (very good) 16x20" silver prints. Some local friends are interested in trying the inkjet route currently with the glossy carbon I'm starting to work with. We'll see. It'll be a good exercise in controlling the variables if nothing else.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2016-07-30 by philbond87@...

Hi John,

I'm not sure if I can make it there this Saturday (tomorrow) but there's a possibility. (on the other hand I might take the opportunity to try to hone things in my darkroom at Mills). What time are you planning on being there?

In any case you can connect with me directly at philbond@gmail.com, which is probably more convenient.

Cheers,
Phil

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2016-08-15 by john.sheets@...

Hi folks,

Has there been any progress on this?

I've been experiencing a number of issues with banding using the P800 with QTR for diginegs for Pd printing. The banding is clearly evident in the digineg in consistent midtones and sadly in the resulting Pd print. I'm using the front loader in the Poster Board mode (to avoid pizza wheel marks) with a backing board (tried two thicknesses with no difference in banding results). I'm using the latest OS X version of QTR on El Capitan and I'm printing on Pictorico OHP. And I'm printing 2880 dpi uni-directionally. (For what it's worth, I also tried printing at 1440 and there was no improvement.)

So anything anyone can share that might be useful, I'd be very interested to hear more.

Thanks,
John

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-01-31 by efo@...

I have the same problem (and under the same circumstances). I get horizontal bands about 1/8 inch high in areas of uniform tone, in all parts of the page. If others have been able to produce digital negatives on the P800 using QTR without banding, I'd love to know what their secret is.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Banding On the Epson P800

2017-01-31 by forums@walkerblackwell.com

We have the same problem in Piezography-land so this is why we have not released PiezoDN or Piezography (print) curves for either P600 or P800.

best (sorry),
Walker
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 2:08 PM, efo@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I have the same problem (and under the same circumstances). I get horizontal bands about 1/8 inch high in areas of uniform tone, in all parts of the page.  If others have been able to produce digital negatives on the P800 using QTR without banding, I'd love to know what their secret is.
> 
>

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Banding On the Epson P800

2017-01-31 by Douglas Taylor

Walker,
Does PiezoDN eliminate banding with the 3880 printer?
Thx, Doug
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 2:32 PM, 'forums@...' forums@walkerblackwell.com [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> We have the same problem in Piezography-land so this is why we have not released PiezoDN or Piezography (print) curves for either P600 or P800.
> 
> 
> best (sorry),
> Walker
> 
>> On Jan 31, 2017, at 2:08 PM, efo@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I have the same problem (and under the same circumstances). I get horizontal bands about 1/8 inch high in areas of uniform tone, in all parts of the page.  If others have been able to produce digital negatives on the P800 using QTR without banding, I'd love to know what their secret is.
>> 
> 
>

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Banding On the Epson P800

2017-01-31 by forums@walkerblackwell.com

yes

-Walker
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Douglas Taylor dougtaylor13@mac.com [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Walker,
> Does PiezoDN eliminate banding with the 3880 printer?
> Thx, Doug
> 
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 2:32 PM, 'forums@... <mailto:forums@walkerblackwell.com>' forums@... <mailto:forums@walkerblackwell.com> [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
> 
>>  
>> We have the same problem in Piezography-land so this is why we have not released PiezoDN or Piezography (print) curves for either P600 or P800.
>> 
>> 
>> best (sorry),
>> Walker
>> 
>>> On Jan 31, 2017, at 2:08 PM, efo@... <mailto:efo@...> [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have the same problem (and under the same circumstances). I get horizontal bands about 1/8 inch high in areas of uniform tone, in all parts of the page.  If others have been able to produce digital negatives on the P800 using QTR without banding, I'd love to know what their secret is.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
>

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Banding On the Epson P800

2017-01-31 by Keith Schreiber

efo,

I know at least 2 people who are using the P800 with OEM inks and have no issue with banding; at least one of them is using QTR, which I know for certain because I make her profiles. I have seen the results and there is absolutely no banding. It may be that she just got lucky with her particular printer, or it may be the profile. Let me know if you are interested in more info. I think I shared the base profile here a while back, but it may have been a different group.

Cheers,
Keith

Keith Schreiber
jkschreiber.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 12:08 PM, efo@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I have the same problem (and under the same circumstances). I get horizontal bands about 1/8 inch high in areas of uniform tone, in all parts of the page.  If others have been able to produce digital negatives on the P800 using QTR without banding, I'd love to know what their secret is.
> 
>

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-05 by efo@...

A big thank-you to Keith, who sent me a profile for the P800. However, his profile behaves just like the one I had made - subtle differences in rows about 1/8” apart.
This is with uni-directional printing; it appears to be worse with bi-directional printing.

It sounds like a printer design issue, but it doesn’t happen with Epson’s drivers (either ABW or the normal driver).

Anyway, thank you Walker and Keith for your help!

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-05 by sanking@...

I have no experience with the P800. However, I have experience with banding with many of the previous generation K3 printers, including the R3000, 3800, 3880, 4880, 7800 and 7880. What I have have found is that horitzontal banding is often associated with panel setting, most especially media thickness. For example, I have an Epson 4880 that makes very smooth digital negatives with thin OHP with media thickness set to Standard, but gives horrible horizontal banding with the media set to the actual thickness of the OHP.

No idea if this experience pertains to the horizontal banding people are seeing with the P800, but it may be worth your time to do some tests with head alignment with different media thickness setting to rule it out.

Sandy

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-05 by alain.oguse@...

I use this solution:
http://www.cyberhalides.com/piezography-printing/microbanding-and-gloss-printing-issues-with-qtr/
The result is simple and perfect. Certainly it is a little tedious because you have to take the time to stick the lead sheet on each new draw. For my A3+ prints it is really worth it.

I use this product:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005DRE49S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks to Brian P Stewart for this brilliant idea and for sharing it.

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-05 by David Aimone

So far I have done a bunch of tests with different printer and QTR settings and cannot eliminate banding on the P800.  So, I have reverted back to creating digital negatives without QTR.  

Thanks Keith and Ian for the information and your help.  I wish I could report success.


David Aimone
david@aimonephoto.com

http://www.aimonephoto.com

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-05 by Felix Martin

I got my P800 about a year ago. I use it mainly for creating negatives using QTR for platinum printing.

I have never had any problem except that the printer and inks were too new to have people use it enough to get help fine-tuning the curves.
With the help of people here (thanks Clay Harmon and Kerik Kouklis) I get excellent results.

What do you mean by banding? The transition between greys or bands created by the printer mechanism?
I would not give up the fine control of QTR now.

-Felix Martin
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Feb 5, 2017, at 7:52 AM, David Aimone daimone@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> So far I have done a bunch of tests with different printer and QTR settings and cannot eliminate banding on the P800. So, I have reverted back to creating digital negatives without QTR.  
> 
> Thanks Keith and Ian for the information and your help. I wish I could report success.
> 
> David Aimone
> david@... <mailto:david@aimonephoto.com>
> 
> http://www.aimonephoto.com <http://www.aimonephoto.com/>
> 
>

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-05 by brian_downunda@...

This solution won't deal with the problem in the P800, because it has a different cause. The lead sheet approach only addresses micro-banding in the first and last inch on desktop printers. The Pro printers, like the 3880, P800 and larger, don't have this problem. The banding that some people are seeing in the P800 is across the entire page, as I understand it.


---In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, <alain.oguse@...> wrote :

I use this solution:
http://www.cyberhalides.com/piezography-printing/microbanding-and-gloss-printing-issues-with-qtr/
The result is simple and perfect. Certainly it is a little tedious because you have to take the time to stick the lead sheet on each new draw. For my A3+ prints it is really worth it.

I use this product:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005DRE49S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-06 by efo@...

In case anyone is desperate to see what the negative produced on the p800 looks like, I just uploaded an image to the misc files area. It doesn't suggest anything specific to me, and it is indeed subtle.

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-07 by Roy Harrington

Efo,

I looked at your image. It's subtle but I think I see what you are talking about. I'm guessing
its a 4inch scan at 600ppi, with source also at 600ppi. It is strange and hard to tell what's
actually going on. It kind of strikes me as a beat pattern or moire between different frequencies.
For instance 720 (the epson and qtr) vs 600 (your file) might show something at about 1/6 inch
(720-600/720). I can't really explain what this would do -- but I avoid things like this.
You don't state it but I'd always use 2880dpi.

I'm also curious about your image where it looks like dithering of gray values. Why is this
dither look? Why not gradient of grays?

Roy

Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 10:34 AM, efo@... [QuadtoneRIP] <QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


In case anyone is desperate to see what the negative produced on the p800 looks like, I just uploaded an image to the misc files area. It doesn't suggest anything specific to me, and it is indeed subtle.




--
Roy Harrington
roy@...
www.harrington.com

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-08 by efo@...

Thanks, Roy.
The image is actually a 600 dpi scan of a 2880 printout. Yes, it's very subtle but it's visible in the darkest area at the bottom. It does look like a beat pattern or moire. That section of the image is actually a constant black (it's a border added to the image) if it matters. The image is probably 570 pixels per inch (a 2 1/4 negative scanned at 2400 dpi). But on the other hand, it only happens in the feed direction, which I wouldn't really expect if it's beating between qtr vs my image.

Another odd thing is that when I switch to bidirectional printing I seem to get this same effect but at about twice the vertical frequency.

That dithering of gray values (the gradient) is film grain from the original negative.

If anyone can suggest any tests that would be helpful, I'm happy to try them. I've thought of turning off the various ink channels to see if it's happening in all inks, or doing something to trick the printer into changing the media thickness (using the front feed, maybe?), or printing at 1440, or printing on different media. But not knowing what would be informative, I haven't tried anything.

For now I'm using ABW, which is of course sad since I've been a happy QTR person for quite a few years!!

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-09 by daimone@...

Does no one among the people who developed QTR have any idea what the issue might be? Since the printer prints lovely when not using QTR, and I assume the developers know the coding issues and paramenters, can they offer any clue?? For us or Epson?

I talked to Epson support, and of course since a) their printers seem to work fine without QTR; and b) people using QTR are a drop in the bucket for them; they cannot be of much help unless talking directly with the QTR people. Have they been in touch?

It seems like we're talking around and around on this here, but shouldn't the developers be talking to Epson support?

Re: Banding On the Epson P800

2017-02-11 by efo@...

Sandy - and everyone else - this seems to be the winner.
Thanks so much for suggesting it. I'm finally found the "thick paper" setting
on the front panel (via: Maintenance) and turned it on. The next printout
seems to be free of the banding. I'm certain I'll have to triple-check, but the results
look much better than before. Thank you Sandy, thank you Roy, thank you Keith,
and thanks everyone else for playing.

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.