QTR-Quadtone RIP

I want to make sure I've got the QTR profile logic straight.
I have a 9600 running Piezotones with a RIP, a 2400 with OEM inks and an R800 with an 
NK7 split tone. If I am satisfied with calibration and linearization on all 3 devices can I 
print the 51 step target through the RIP (StudioPrint) with my normal print settings, read 
patches with the Eye One and Measure Tool and create an ICC profile that will accurately 
softproof my RIP output?

On the 2400 I have built a color profile with Eye One Match. If I print the 51 step target 
using ABW mode with the color printer profile, I can read patches with the Eye One and 
Measure Tool and create an ICC profile that will accurately softproof the Epson ABW driver 
output?

On the NK7 setup, I understand (I think) that the linearizations are wrapped in IJM's 
proprietary profile. So I can print the 51 step target using my normal QTR print settings 
then read patches with the Eye One and Measure Tool and create an ICC profile that will 
accurately softproof my QTR output?

So all I'm really trying to accomplish is to characterise my current output for softproofing. 
Do the above steps achieve this? THanks.

amadou diallo
www.diallophotography.com

Hi Amadou,

You have exactly the right idea for all these setups.  I have a few 
comments though.

I'd recommend using the 21x4 step target rather than 51 step.
You get 4 patches of each step that are averaged for a more accurate 
measurement.
Also 21 steps probably gives a smoother overall curve since there are 
less points.

Note that the ICC created can be used for both printing and 
soft-proofing.  Standard
ICC usage is to print with the ICC profile -- this may involve explicit 
Convert-to-Profile
if your print workflow does not have printing profiles builtin.  
Soft-proofing can work
two ways.   The "Preserve Color Numbers" determines whether the proof 
is for printing
with or without the print profile.  If you are printing WITH the 
profile then PCN should be
OFF.  If you print WITHOUT the profile then PCN should be ON.  Its very 
important that
you soft-proof based on how you are going to print.

If you make all 3 ICC profiles and print using the profiles and 
corresponding drivers,
you ought to get a very close match as far as luminosity.  Hue is of 
course dependent
on the inks and driver settings you've used in each case.  (note that 
each ICC profile
is for a specific set of driver settings.  E.g if you change hue in 
Epson ABW you ought to
be creating separate icc profiles.)

Roy

On Wednesday, September 13, 2006, at 06:59  AM, Amadou Diallo wrote:

> I want to make sure I've got the QTR profile logic straight.
> I have a 9600 running Piezotones with a RIP, a 2400 with OEM inks and 
> an R800 with an
> NK7 split tone. If I am satisfied with calibration and linearization 
> on all 3 devices can I
> print the 51 step target through the RIP (StudioPrint) with my normal 
> print settings, read
> patches with the Eye One and Measure Tool and create an ICC profile 
> that will accurately
> softproof my RIP output?
>
> On the 2400 I have built a color profile with Eye One Match. If I 
> print the 51 step target
> using ABW mode with the color printer profile, I can read patches with 
> the Eye One and
> Measure Tool and create an ICC profile that will accurately softproof 
> the Epson ABW driver
> output?
>
> On the NK7 setup, I understand (I think) that the linearizations are 
> wrapped in IJM's
> proprietary profile. So I can print the 51 step target using my normal 
> QTR print settings
> then read patches with the Eye One and Measure Tool and create an ICC 
> profile that will
> accurately softproof my QTR output?
>
> So all I'm really trying to accomplish is to characterise my current 
> output for softproofing.
> Do the above steps achieve this? THanks.
>
> amadou diallo
> www.diallophotography.com
>
>
-
Roy Harrington
roy@...
Black & White Photo Gallery
http://www.harrington.com

Thanks Roy, especially for the preserve numbers info. I ran the measurement files through 
the droplet and the softproofing looks pretty good. A nice addition when using a RIP that 
ignores profiles for grayscale images. This whole process is a really good demonstration of 
the difference between calibrating and profiling. It's interesting to toggle the preserve 
numbers box on and off to see the adjustments the profile would make during print 
conversion.

Hello Roy,

Sorry to bug you with some Q's. I have yet to use the ICC facilities 
with the QTR system, and I am intrigued enough to try. As you know I 
use QTR for my b/w printing. I create the hue purely visually, 
without aid of an instrument. I linearize the curve with an old film 
densitometer. I do have access to an EyeOne machine, which I have 
used to make color profiles for PhotoShop and Epson driver. I am on 
a PC system.

Let us say (1) I print the 4x21 step file using my choice of 
linearized curve with QTR, (2) measure with EyeOne, and (3) create 
the profile with Create ICC.

Q: Can I use the resulting ICC profile for printing using PhotoShop 
and the Epson Driver? 
Q: Or is it good only for soft-proof?

Best regards.

Shilesh

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Amadou Diallo" 
<amadiallo2001@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Roy, especially for the preserve numbers info. I ran the 
measurement files through 
> the droplet and the softproofing looks pretty good. A nice 
addition when using a RIP that 
> ignores profiles for grayscale images. This whole process is a 
really good demonstration of 
> the difference between calibrating and profiling. It's interesting 
to toggle the preserve 
> numbers box on and off to see the adjustments the profile would 
make during print 
> conversion.
>

On Thursday, September 14, 2006, at 03:12  PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:

> Hello Roy,
>
> Sorry to bug you with some Q's. I have yet to use the ICC facilities
> with the QTR system, and I am intrigued enough to try. As you know I
> use QTR for my b/w printing. I create the hue purely visually,
> without aid of an instrument. I linearize the curve with an old film
> densitometer. I do have access to an EyeOne machine, which I have
> used to make color profiles for PhotoShop and Epson driver. I am on
> a PC system.
>
> Let us say (1) I print the 4x21 step file using my choice of
> linearized curve with QTR, (2) measure with EyeOne, and (3) create
> the profile with Create ICC.
>
> Q: Can I use the resulting ICC profile for printing using PhotoShop
> and the Epson Driver?

Whenever you use any ICC profile for printing, its only appropriate for 
printing with
the exact same settings that were used to create the profile.  So if 
you make
a profile with QTR its only good for printing with QTR.

> Q: Or is it good only for soft-proof?

It's good for both printing and soft-proofing -- be sure to may 
attention to the
"Preserve Color Numbers" as I mentioned in the last post.

Note that the profiles made with QTR-Create-ICC are Grayscale ICC 
profiles.
Since they are for a grayscale workflow, they CONTROL just luminosity 
of the output
but they PROOF both luminosity and hue.
	
Roy

>
> Best regards.
>
> Shilesh
>
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Amadou Diallo"
> <amadiallo2001@...> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Roy, especially for the preserve numbers info. I ran the
> measurement files through
>> the droplet and the softproofing looks pretty good. A nice
> addition when using a RIP that
>> ignores profiles for grayscale images. This whole process is a
> really good demonstration of
>> the difference between calibrating and profiling. It's interesting
> to toggle the preserve
>> numbers box on and off to see the adjustments the profile would
> make during print
>> conversion.
>>
>
>
>
-
Roy Harrington
roy@...
Black & White Photo Gallery
http://www.harrington.com

Roy wrote: 

"Whenever you use any ICC profile for printing, its only appropriate 
for printing with the exact same settings that were used to create the 
profile. So if you make a profile with QTR its only good for printing 
with QTR."

That is the part I have had trouble understanding, since QTR does not 
allow one to apply the profile.

I guess, if you use one of the RGB partition methods (Roark-type) or 
ABW, one could indeed use the profile for printing with the Epson 
driver. Am I missing something?

Shilesh

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" <shileshjani@...> wrote:
> That is the part I have had trouble understanding, since QTR does not 
> allow one to apply the profile.

In Photoshop go to File>Print with Preview. Select your newly created ICC profile in the Color 
management setting labeled Printer Profile. Choose perceptual for rendering intent. Hit Print, 
then when the OEM driver comes up use your normal QTR settings. A lot to keep track of. As 
Roy noted, your driver settings must exactly match the conditions under which you created 
the profile. Hope that helps.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amadou Diallo
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:18 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: QTR and ICC for softproof only
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" 
> <shileshjani@...> wrote:
> > That is the part I have had trouble understanding, since 
> QTR does not 
> > allow one to apply the profile.
> 
> In Photoshop go to File>Print with Preview. Select your newly 
> created ICC profile in the Color management setting labeled 
> Printer Profile. Choose perceptual for rendering intent. Hit 
> Print, then when the OEM driver comes up use your normal QTR 
> settings. A lot to keep track of. As Roy noted, your driver 
> settings must exactly match the conditions under which you 
> created the profile. Hope that helps.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, it doesn't work that way on Windows. What
you do is convert the image to your ICC profile using perceptual intent, and
then save that as a tiff and print it from QTRGui.

Jeff

On Thursday, September 14, 2006, at 08:18  PM, Amadou Diallo wrote:

> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" <shileshjani@...> 
> wrote:
>> That is the part I have had trouble understanding, since QTR does not
>> allow one to apply the profile.
>
> In Photoshop go to File>Print with Preview. Select your newly created 
> ICC profile in the Color
> management setting labeled Printer Profile. Choose perceptual for 
> rendering intent. Hit Print,
> then when the OEM driver comes up use your normal QTR settings. A lot 
> to keep track of. As
> Roy noted, your driver settings must exactly match the conditions 
> under which you created
> the profile. Hope that helps.
>

For those on Windows the procedure with QTR is different because you 
print through QTRgui.
So you must explicitly use Convert-to-Profile to do the conversion.  
Although it may seem
very different it's actually the same computation that happens when you 
select an ICC
profile in the Print with Preview page.  BTW, you can also print in 
Qimage by selecting a
print ICC profile which converts on the fly as it writes the TIFF file.

Roy

-
Roy Harrington
roy@...
Black & White Photo Gallery
http://www.harrington.com

Shilesh Jani wrote:


>As you know I 
> use QTR for my b/w printing. I create the hue purely visually, 
> without aid of an instrument. 

Probably another thread but I have been thinking about this
for a long time:

The toners in quad ink sets and in K3 ink sets are measured on
density in the Quadtone linearisation step. Would it be
possible to measure them in Chroma in all QTR applications
where it counts and so make the hue creation a bit more
controlled ? Right now I tweak the toner curve to get an
acceptable hue over the range, after that I have to linearise
again, which will influence the toner curve again etc. There's
no real solution to get the last 90-100% black in line on hue
without density loss or dotgain increase but I can live with
that. But getting it correct from paper color and over the
main part of the ramp would be nice. Just Chroma may not be 
enough as the mix shifts in hue from paper to the shadows as 
well. I know another step would require a color engine of some 
kind in the program. Probably too much to ask for.

I think David Tobie recognises this flaw in most quadtone 
solutions and adds solutions to PrintFIX Pro but they are only 
usable in an RGB CM environment.

Ernst


-- 

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )