QTR-Quadtone RIP

I have created a QTR profile for my R800 using photo black ink that 
I am really pleased with.  One of its features is that I created an 
inverted curve for the gloss optimizer, so that in areas of the 
photo that are pure white, gloss optimizer is applied, and in areas 
of deep blacks, no gloss optimizer is applied. (By not applying 
gloss optimizer to dark areas, I am able to use more black ink and 
achieve a higher dmax without ink pooling.)

One thing I've found, however, is that QTR seems to be hard-coded 
such that in areas of pure white in the photo, no ink is applied... 
regardless of what my gloss optimizer curve says. I am seeing a 
gloss differential in pure white areas, which goes away when I 
adjust the levels of the image so that the white point output is set 
to 254.

My workaround solution is to create a photoshop action that changes 
the lightness of any pixes with value 255 to value 254. This creates 
a nearly imperceptible change in the brightness of the lightest 
areas of the print.

My question is:  Has anyone found a way to force QTR to print gloss 
optimizer in an area of pure white?  

Thanks!
Matt

Sorry no idea how to do that. However I am very interested in your 
profile for the R800. I did one myself using Black and Photo Black 
but I am not totally conviced (especially when using semimatte 
papers). Any chance that you uploaded your profile to test it? Waht 
papers are you using?

Regards,

Ignacio

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "mattchapin2" 
<matthew.chapin.wh00@...> wrote:
>
> I have created a QTR profile for my R800 using photo black ink that 
> I am really pleased with.  One of its features is that I created an 
> inverted curve for the gloss optimizer, so that in areas of the 
> photo that are pure white, gloss optimizer is applied, and in areas 
> of deep blacks, no gloss optimizer is applied. (By not applying 
> gloss optimizer to dark areas, I am able to use more black ink and 
> achieve a higher dmax without ink pooling.)
> 
> One thing I've found, however, is that QTR seems to be hard-coded 
> such that in areas of pure white in the photo, no ink is applied... 
> regardless of what my gloss optimizer curve says. I am seeing a 
> gloss differential in pure white areas, which goes away when I 
> adjust the levels of the image so that the white point output is 
set 
> to 254.
> 
> My workaround solution is to create a photoshop action that changes 
> the lightness of any pixes with value 255 to value 254. This 
creates 

> a nearly imperceptible change in the brightness of the lightest 
> areas of the print.
> 
> My question is:  Has anyone found a way to force QTR to print gloss 
> optimizer in an area of pure white?  
> 
> Thanks!
> Matt
>

Matt

Sorry, I missed question this earlier. Have you tried the following:

For the ink position with the glop installed, in the Curve Creation dialog,
Ink Setup tab, select the Load Curve option from the dropdown menu. Then
click the Curve button that appears for that ink and enter the values for
your curve. The values are a series xy coordinates (I think x is the input
gray level (0-100), y is the output value for the ink as a percentage of the
applicable ink limit) for a curve that determines how much ink (in this case
glop) that is output for each level in your image. 
As an example the values 0,20; 20,0; 100,0
would output 20% glop at 0 density (paper white), ramp down to 0% glop at
20% gray and remain 0 for all darker tones.

I'd be interested in hearing how this idea works.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of mattchapin2
> Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:44 PM
> To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Issue creating R800 profile using gloss optimizer
> 
...

> 
> My question is:  Has anyone found a way to force QTR to print gloss
> optimizer in an area of pure white?
> 
> Thanks!
> Matt
>

Hey Tom,

That is exactly what I did.  I entered these points in my gloss 
optimizer curve:

0,30 <- 30% glop at pure white
60,0 <- ramp down to 0% glop at 60% gray
100,0 <- keep it pegged at 0 for dark areas.

However, when I print with this profile, what I seem to get in the 
printer output is:

0,0 <- No glop at pure white
1,30 <- 30% glop at the very lightest shade of gray
60,0
100,0

So close, and yet so far!  This seems to be an issue with the QTR 
print driver. 

Matt


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@...> 
wrote:
>
> Matt
> 
> Sorry, I missed question this earlier. Have you tried the 
following:
> 
> For the ink position with the glop installed, in the Curve 
Creation dialog,
> Ink Setup tab, select the Load Curve option from the dropdown 
menu. Then
> click the Curve button that appears for that ink and enter the 
values for
> your curve. The values are a series xy coordinates (I think x is 
the input
> gray level (0-100), y is the output value for the ink as a 
percentage of the
> applicable ink limit) for a curve that determines how much ink (in 
this case
> glop) that is output for each level in your image. 
> As an example the values 0,20; 20,0; 100,0
> would output 20% glop at 0 density (paper white), ramp down to 0% 
glop at
> 20% gray and remain 0 for all darker tones.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing how this idea works.
> 
> Tom Moore
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of mattchapin2
> > Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:44 PM
> > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Issue creating R800 profile using gloss 
optimizer
> > 
> ...
> > 
> > My question is:  Has anyone found a way to force QTR to print 
gloss

> > optimizer in an area of pure white?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > Matt
> >
>

Hey Tom, 

Now this is interesting. I did a little investigation of the profile 
I created using the method you suggested.

Using a text editor, I opened the .quad file that the curve creation 
tool output, and I looked at the gloss optimizer section.  Lo and 
behold, the first value in that section is zero. I manually changed 
it to be equal to the second value... and voila, I get full coverage 
of gloss optimizer on the pure-white areas of the page!

Incidentally, this isn't a perfect solution, because now the entire 
white space on the page gets a 30% coat of glop... not just the 
white space within the image boundaries.  Fine for an 8x10, not so 
economical when printing a smaller image.

So it looks like this is just a minor bug in the curve creation tool.

Matt




--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "mattchapin2" 
<matthew.chapin.wh00@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Tom,
> 
> That is exactly what I did.  I entered these points in my gloss 
> optimizer curve:
> 
> 0,30 <- 30% glop at pure white
> 60,0 <- ramp down to 0% glop at 60% gray
> 100,0 <- keep it pegged at 0 for dark areas.
> 
> However, when I print with this profile, what I seem to get in the 
> printer output is:
> 
> 0,0 <- No glop at pure white
> 1,30 <- 30% glop at the very lightest shade of gray
> 60,0
> 100,0
> 
> So close, and yet so far!  This seems to be an issue with the QTR 
> print driver. 
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <r.t.moore@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Matt
> > 
> > Sorry, I missed question this earlier. Have you tried the 
> following:
> > 
> > For the ink position with the glop installed, in the Curve 
> Creation dialog,
> > Ink Setup tab, select the Load Curve option from the dropdown 
> menu. Then
> > click the Curve button that appears for that ink and enter the 
> values for
> > your curve. The values are a series xy coordinates (I think x is 
> the input
> > gray level (0-100), y is the output value for the ink as a 
> percentage of the
> > applicable ink limit) for a curve that determines how much ink 
(in 
> this case
> > glop) that is output for each level in your image. 
> > As an example the values 0,20; 20,0; 100,0
> > would output 20% glop at 0 density (paper white), ramp down to 
0% 

> glop at
> > 20% gray and remain 0 for all darker tones.
> > 
> > I'd be interested in hearing how this idea works.
> > 
> > Tom Moore
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
> > > Behalf Of mattchapin2
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:44 PM
> > > To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Issue creating R800 profile using gloss 
> optimizer
> > > 
> > ...
> > > 
> > > My question is:  Has anyone found a way to force QTR to print 
> gloss
> > > optimizer in an area of pure white?
> > > 
> > > Thanks!
> > > Matt
> > >
> >
>

mattchapin2 wrote:
> Hey Tom, 
> 
> Now this is interesting. I did a little investigation of the profile 
> I created using the method you suggested.
> 
> Using a text editor, I opened the .quad file that the curve creation 
> tool output, and I looked at the gloss optimizer section.  Lo and 
> behold, the first value in that section is zero. I manually changed 
> it to be equal to the second value... and voila, I get full coverage 
> of gloss optimizer on the pure-white areas of the page!
> 
> Incidentally, this isn't a perfect solution, because now the entire 
> white space on the page gets a 30% coat of glop... not just the 
> white space within the image boundaries.  Fine for an 8x10, not so 
> economical when printing a smaller image.
> 
> So it looks like this is just a minor bug in the curve creation tool.
> 
> Matt
> 
My solution to that is to apply a photoshop curve with a straight line 
from 0 to 254 - that way the maximum value is 254 and you won't have the 
problem with qtr 255 value = 0 ink.

regards
Howard

> Using a text editor, I opened the .quad file that the curve 
creation 
> tool output, and I looked at the gloss optimizer section.  Lo and 
> behold, the first value in that section is zero. I manually changed 
> it to be equal to the second value... and voila, I get full 
coverage 
> of gloss optimizer on the pure-white areas of the page!
> 
> Incidentally, this isn't a perfect solution, because now the entire 
> white space on the page gets a 30% coat of glop... not just the 
> white space within the image boundaries.  Fine for an 8x10, not so 
> economical when printing a smaller image.
> 
> So it looks like this is just a minor bug in the curve creation 
tool.
> 

I'm soon on for Piezo MPS with the infamous GLOP.
I think I understand was is said here, yet not completely. I open 
R800_F-A-Pearl_2880_warm_glop_v10.quad in text, couple of questions :

1. Quad txt shows for an ink position (say PK) a 0-255 scale. I 
assume this is ink value not RVB value so that 0 is no ink 255 is 
full ink (would make sense for a rip) ?
2. Out-value seems to be 16b (0-65536) ? PK in the above quad reaches 
below 65536 for TIL purpose most likely.
3. My understanding is that there's still an issue for all white 
areas get a spray of GLOP, not much convenient. The idea of applying 
a PS curve to limit the image range to 0-254 is the only work-around ?

Thanks for helping...and possibly saving me time and consumable cost.
Olivier

As shown here glop presents an inherent problem.  By the time QTR sees the
page and applies the curves there's no way to distinguish the white of the
border from the white of an image.  There is no ideal solution without a lot
of changes.  So I've taken the 'least-bad" approach of zeroing the
pure-white
entry of the glop curve allowing the margins to be glop-free.  Therefore
this
requires you to limit your image to a value of 254 instead of 255.  This is
easily
done in Adj Levels -- set the Output slider to 0...254.

Roy


On Dec 13, 2007 1:18 AM, Olivier <odesmais@...> wrote:

> > Using a text editor, I opened the .quad file that the curve
> creation
> > tool output, and I looked at the gloss optimizer section.  Lo and
> > behold, the first value in that section is zero. I manually changed
> > it to be equal to the second value... and voila, I get full
> coverage
> > of gloss optimizer on the pure-white areas of the page!
> >
> > Incidentally, this isn't a perfect solution, because now the entire
> > white space on the page gets a 30% coat of glop... not just the
> > white space within the image boundaries.  Fine for an 8x10, not so
> > economical when printing a smaller image.
> >
> > So it looks like this is just a minor bug in the curve creation
> tool.
> >
>
> I'm soon on for Piezo MPS with the infamous GLOP.
> I think I understand was is said here, yet not completely. I open
> R800_F-A-Pearl_2880_warm_glop_v10.quad in text, couple of questions :
>
> 1. Quad txt shows for an ink position (say PK) a 0-255 scale. I
> assume this is ink value not RVB value so that 0 is no ink 255 is
> full ink (would make sense for a rip) ?
> 2. Out-value seems to be 16b (0-65536) ? PK in the above quad reaches
> below 65536 for TIL purpose most likely.
> 3. My understanding is that there's still an issue for all white
> areas get a spray of GLOP, not much convenient. The idea of applying
> a PS curve to limit the image range to 0-254 is the only work-around ?
>
> Thanks for helping...and possibly saving me time and consumable cost.
> Olivier
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> As shown here glop presents an inherent problem.  By the time QTR 
sees the
> page and applies the curves there's no way to distinguish the white 
of the
> border from the white of an image.  There is no ideal solution 
without a lot
> of changes.  So I've taken the 'least-bad" approach of zeroing the
> pure-white
> entry of the glop curve allowing the margins to be glop-free.  
Therefore
> this
> requires you to limit your image to a value of 254 instead of 255.  
This is
> easily
> done in Adj Levels -- set the Output slider to 0...254.
> 
> Roy

Roy, thanks for helping.
The issue of extreme whites and blacks not being covered by Glop with 
QTR is not such a big deal.
My concerns are more :
1. how to determine Glop %tage coverage except eyeballing it.
2. It looks like TIL is not respected with Glop : K %tage remains the 
same whether glop or not. To my understanding glop is an ink-like 
fluid so one doesn't want over-inking.
Olivier