QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hi All,

I have successfully created good solid curves, linearized data and ICC profiles through 
QTR, and have done so using "No Color Management" at every step.  With images I almost 
always start out with a 16-Bit RGB file and do all of the serious image editing, spotting, 
etc. at this stage.  When I am satisfied with the image I use the "Channel Mixer" with the 
"Monochrome" box checked to convert the image to gray values – of course it isn't actually 
"converted" yet which brings me to my question… I have to "Convert to Grayscale" first or I 
won't see my profile listed in the dropdown menu, but once I have done this and I choose 
my profile I end up with a significant change to the grayscale values.

I would like to use Channel Mixer but what's the point if my values are going to change 
from what I desire?  And, once I have applied my profile then I have to make an adjustment 
layer with "Curves" to get the image back where I want it.  What am I missing??  All of a 
sudden it seems like I have to create an adjustment curve whether I go through the 
"Calibration" and curve creation process or not.

I have many B&W images that are still in Adobe RGB (1998) with the Channel Mixer box 
checked and when I convert these to Grayscale and then apply my profile I end up having 
to make a serious adjustment curve that ends up just destroying more information.  I have 
always tried to stay in 16-Bit RGB (1998) until final tonal adjustment and then convert 
precisely for the reason of NOT destroying information but now it seems I have to convert, 
apply profile and then make another adjustment layer.  Is there a better way of working??

Also, if I use "No Color Management" the whole time in Calibrating, Linearizing and 
creating an ICC Profile why won't my image print correctly if I choose "No Color 
Management" when printing it?

I work on a Mac and use an Epson 2400 printer.

Please help if you can and thank you,

Cody

I was never very happy with Channel Mixer.  I¹m now exploring Calculations
in PS/CS3 for that purpose.  You might have look there too.

Harry


On 3/2/08 1:36 AM, "cteditions" <cteditions@...> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I have successfully created good solid curves, linearized data and ICC
> profiles through 
> QTR, and have done so using "No Color Management" at every step.  With images
> I almost 
> always start out with a 16-Bit RGB file and do all of the serious image
> editing, spotting,
> etc. at this stage.  When I am satisfied with the image I use the "Channel
> Mixer" with the 
> "Monochrome" box checked to convert the image to gray values – of course it
> isn't actually 
> "converted" yet which brings me to my question… I have to "Convert to
> Grayscale" first or I
> won't see my profile listed in the dropdown menu, but once I have done this
> and I choose 
> my profile I end up with a significant change to the grayscale values.
> 
> I would like to use Channel Mixer but what's the point if my values are going
> to change 
> from what I desire?  And, once I have applied my profile then I have to make
> an adjustment 
> layer with "Curves" to get the image back where I want it.  What am I
> missing??  All of a
> sudden it seems like I have to create an adjustment curve whether I go through
> the 
> "Calibration" and curve creation process or not.
> 
> I have many B&W images that are still in Adobe RGB (1998) with the Channel
> Mixer box 
> checked and when I convert these to Grayscale and then apply my profile I end
> up having 
> to make a serious adjustment curve that ends up just destroying more
> information.  I have
> always tried to stay in 16-Bit RGB (1998) until final tonal adjustment and
> then convert 
> precisely for the reason of NOT destroying information but now it seems I have
> to convert, 
> apply profile and then make another adjustment layer.  Is there a better way
> of working??
> 
> Also, if I use "No Color Management" the whole time in Calibrating,
> Linearizing and 
> creating an ICC Profile why won't my image print correctly if I choose "No
> Color 
> Management" when printing it?
> 
> I work on a Mac and use an Epson 2400 printer.
> 
> Please help if you can and thank you,
> 
> Cody


Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...> wrote:
>
> I was never very happy with Channel Mixer.  I¹m now exploring Calculations
> in PS/CS3 for that purpose.  You might have look there too.

Have you tried the new B+W adjustment layer in Photoshop CS3? 

Better than Calculations or Channel Mixer IMHO...

No, but I¹m on my way there right now.  Thanks.

Harry


On 3/3/08 1:04 PM, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...> wrote:
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > I was never very happy with Channel Mixer.  I¹m now exploring Calculations
>> > in PS/CS3 for that purpose.  You might have look there too.
> 
> Have you tried the new B+W adjustment layer in Photoshop CS3?
> 
> Better than Calculations or Channel Mixer IMHO...
> 
>  


-- 

Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This looks interesting.  But all I could find was a conversion applied to
the original background as opposed to an adjustment layer which would be
accessible for change.  Creating a duplicate of the background layer and
applying the conversion only there, etc., etc., would keep the original
intact.  Did I miss something?

BTW, Justin Seely explains Calculations quite nicely.  See,
http://www.howcast.com/users/jseeley and look for Photoshop Quicktips
Episode 55: Calculating a Grayscale.

Harry


On 3/3/08 2:14 PM, "Harry Lockwood" <hflockwood@...> wrote:
> 
> No, but I¹m on my way there right now.  Thanks.
> 
> Harry
> 
> On 3/3/08 1:04 PM, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...
> <mailto:jvlist%40comcast.net> > wrote:
>> > 
>> > --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>> > Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I was never very happy with Channel Mixer.  I¹m now exploring
>>>> Calculations
>>>> >> > in PS/CS3 for that purpose.  You might have look there too.
>> > 
>> > Have you tried the new B+W adjustment layer in Photoshop CS3?
>> > 
>> > Better than Calculations or Channel Mixer IMHO...
>> > 
>> >  


-- 

Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Harry & John,

I originally posted this and thank you for your feedback. In thinking about the conversion 
to Grayscale from RGB I have stumbled upon another inquiry... Do we know what Source 
Space the grayscale QTR Calibration/Linearization files were created in.  I understand that 
we are not to color manage BUT Photoshop nevertheless always converts "Untagged" files 
to the Working Space on the fly.  This might require a separate post and would be good 
for all QTR members to know... Maybe I have missed something but I don't see where the 
documentation talks about the Source Space that the "Target Files" were created in. 
Knowing this is instrumental in creating a good CMS is it not? Your thought please...

Regards,

Cody

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...> wrote:

>
> This looks interesting.  But all I could find was a conversion applied to
> the original background as opposed to an adjustment layer which would be
> accessible for change.  Creating a duplicate of the background layer and
> applying the conversion only there, etc., etc., would keep the original
> intact.  Did I miss something?
> 
> BTW, Justin Seely explains Calculations quite nicely.  See,
> http://www.howcast.com/users/jseeley and look for Photoshop Quicktips
> Episode 55: Calculating a Grayscale.
> 
> Harry

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...> wrote:
>
> This looks interesting.  But all I could find was a conversion applied to
> the original background as opposed to an adjustment layer which would be
> accessible for change.  Creating a duplicate of the background layer and
> applying the conversion only there, etc., etc., would keep the original
> intact.  Did I miss something?

On the bottom of the Layers palette is the icon that is half black and half white, 
that's the Adjustment Layer icon where the B+W conversion is.

Also a cool feature is click and drag (left or right) the eyedropper over a certain area to 
change the density of that specific color.

Here's a video to get you started:

http://tinyurl.com/yql8ye

John V.

Cody,
There are three Gray color spaces included with the QTR software; Gray Lab, Gray Matt 
paper and Gray Photo Paper.

Roy has included a paper in the QTR documentation in the CurveDesign folder that 
describes how they can be used.

I have configured CS 3 to use the Gray Lab space as the Gray working space. This permits 
me to leave my B&W images in the "native" working RGB space.

Thus when I get to the Print dialog and select Photoshop Manages Color, the working 
space shown is Gray Photo Paper or Gray Matt Paper depending on the paper it will be 
printed on.

Then when going to the QTR printer dialog I can select the paper preset and print.

Using this approach I can print onto different papers using QTR without having to do 
additional work to get a soft proof that matches the print.

David 

--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "cteditions" <cteditions@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Harry & John,
> 
> I originally posted this and thank you for your feedback. In thinking about the 
conversion 
> to Grayscale from RGB I have stumbled upon another inquiry... Do we know what Source 
> Space the grayscale QTR Calibration/Linearization files were created in.  I understand 
that 
> we are not to color manage BUT Photoshop nevertheless always converts "Untagged" 
files 
> to the Working Space on the fly.  This might require a separate post and would be good 
> for all QTR members to know... Maybe I have missed something but I don't see where 
the 

> documentation talks about the Source Space that the "Target Files" were created in. 
> Knowing this is instrumental in creating a good CMS is it not? Your thought please...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Cody
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@> wrote:
> >
> > This looks interesting.  But all I could find was a conversion applied to
> > the original background as opposed to an adjustment layer which would be
> > accessible for change.  Creating a duplicate of the background layer and
> > applying the conversion only there, etc., etc., would keep the original
> > intact.  Did I miss something?
> > 
> > BTW, Justin Seely explains Calculations quite nicely.  See,
> > http://www.howcast.com/users/jseeley and look for Photoshop Quicktips
> > Episode 55: Calculating a Grayscale.
> > 
> > Harry
>

Hi David,

Yes, I have read that documentation but what exactly is the Source Space of the Untagged 
Calibration Files in QTR.  In other words, when Roy (I am guessing) was creating these 
"target" files, what was HIS Working Space? When we open up a Calibration File to linearize 
or calibrate the QTR curve we open up an UNTAGGED file - even if you tell Photoshop NOT 
to Color Manage this file it still converts the information into the present Working Space.  
This is fine if your Working Space is the same as the Working Space in which the file was 
created but, if not, it will not be displayed correctly on screen.  Since this is the beginning 
of the QTR Calibration process I think it is important to get this right.

If the Calibration Files were created in QTR Lab Space then that should be designated as 
the Source Space BEFORE any Calibration Files are open - but, seeing as they are untagged 
there is no way of knowing (that I can see) what the ORIGINAL Source Space of the files 
were.

I would like to ask you more about your workflow but don't want to flood the post with too 
many specifics at once.  Could you please let me know if the above makes sense to you 
and/or if I am missing something that is right in front of me regarding the native Source 
Space of the Calibration Images for QTR?

Regards,

Cody


--- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "dmwket" <dmw@...> wrote:
>
> Cody,
> There are three Gray color spaces included with the QTR software; Gray Lab, Gray Matt 
> paper and Gray Photo Paper.
> 
> Roy has included a paper in the QTR documentation in the CurveDesign folder that 
> describes how they can be used.
> 
> I have configured CS 3 to use the Gray Lab space as the Gray working space. This 
permits 
> me to leave my B&W images in the "native" working RGB space.
> 
> Thus when I get to the Print dialog and select Photoshop Manages Color, the working 
> space shown is Gray Photo Paper or Gray Matt Paper depending on the paper it will be 
> printed on.
> 
> Then when going to the QTR printer dialog I can select the paper preset and print.
> 
> Using this approach I can print onto different papers using QTR without having to do 
> additional work to get a soft proof that matches the print.
> 
> David 
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com, "cteditions" <cteditions@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Harry & John,
> > 
> > I originally posted this and thank you for your feedback. In thinking about the 
> conversion 
> > to Grayscale from RGB I have stumbled upon another inquiry... Do we know what 
Source 
> > Space the grayscale QTR Calibration/Linearization files were created in.  I understand 
> that 
> > we are not to color manage BUT Photoshop nevertheless always converts "Untagged" 
> files 
> > to the Working Space on the fly.  This might require a separate post and would be 
good 

> > for all QTR members to know... Maybe I have missed something but I don't see where 
> the 
> > documentation talks about the Source Space that the "Target Files" were created in. 
> > Knowing this is instrumental in creating a good CMS is it not? Your thought please...

Terrific, John!  Thanks very much.

Harry


On 3/3/08 8:36 PM, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...> wrote:
> 
> --- In QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> Harry Lockwood <hflockwood@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > This looks interesting.  But all I could find was a conversion applied to
>> > the original background as opposed to an adjustment layer which would be
>> > accessible for change.  Creating a duplicate of the background layer and
>> > applying the conversion only there, etc., etc., would keep the original
>> > intact.  Did I miss something?
> 
> On the bottom of the Layers palette is the icon that is half black and half
> white, 
> that's the Adjustment Layer icon where the B+W conversion is.
> 
> Also a cool feature is click and drag (left or right) the eyedropper over a
> certain area to 
> change the density of that specific color.
> 
> Here's a video to get you started:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/yql8ye
> 
> John V.
> 

Harry F. Lockwood




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cody,
I understand your point.
I think your question goes to how Photoshop, the OS and the printer driver interact.

It is my understanding that when a file is brought into photoshop it uses the color space 
attached to the file, if none is attached it then uses the space that is specified in the color 
setting dialog.

When the file is sent from Photoshop to the printer with No Color Management ticked then 
photoshop is sending the file out with the color space that was attached to the file 
originally.

Since the files that Roy is providing have no color space assigned and photoshop is not 
assigning a color space the printer is handing the file based on the color space definitions 
embedded in its driver.

Thus, the step wedge printing is delivering what the printer delivers without outside 
definition. And, since we are using the QTR "driver" the printer is working based on the 
logic that Roy embedded into QTR.

It seems to me, that when printing the test wedges with NCM we are letting QTR handle 
the printer without outside influence. Thus the printer is delivering the ink without control  
other than QTR.

I expect that the objective for this is to determine a baseline so that the linearization 
process can develop a curve file that will adjust the ink delivery to the paper to "perfect" 
the step wedge so that each wedge is 5% from the other and the graduation is smooth.

This seems to be a long winded way of saying that with not assigned color space and no 
color management by Photoshop the QTR software and step wedges are a "closed system" 
designed by Roy to determine how a particular printer delivers ink to paper so that a 
"correction" curve can be created to adjust the printer ink delivery to a properly linear gray 
scale from zero to 100 percent.

BTW, I am working on another paper to upload to the files folder that describes my 
workflow using Gray Lab and Gray PK.

Regards,
David