QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hi everyone... first post here with my brand new R1800.

 I am using a HP laptop Pavillion with a calibrated screen. Photoshop
CS2 and I do believe that I have everything calibrated and adjusted
properly. I am printing with QTR and MIS carbon ink on Epson Enhanced
Matt and find that the contrast level is much lower than on my Epson
890 using BO printing with epson ink. I have pushed the contrast as
far as possible in photoshop and have tweaked the ink limit and Gamma
in QTR. Is there anything else I should/could be doing ?

Many thanks - Bernard

The 890 was a dye ink printer. The MIS carbon are pigment. There will 
be quite a difference there.

Were the 890 prints on matte or photo paper? Matte is also a 
completely different beast than photo paper.

Do you have an i1 or other spectrophotometer?  Are you using canned 
QTR curves or did you make your own?

Can you measure the "L" value of your darkest black?  Do you get a 
good 21 step ramp where the black maxes out quite well?  

Epson Ultrasmooth or Moab Entrada Bright White will give you a little 
more "pop."  

If you can get measurements via a photospectrometer or a scanner - 
see Paul Roark's B&W printing page - we can tell you if your results 
are in line.  I **think** the best L value on Epson Enhanced with 
Carbon 6 was around a 15? Can't remember, it has been a while.  

I have a canvas I just profiled that only gets down to 25!

Best,
Michael

Thanks Michael,

The 890 prints were on the same epson enhanced  paper that I am now using with the  1800. The curves that I am using are the ones for that same paper available in QTR....after reading the Shutterbug article I was kind of led to believe that is all I would need to do ....  I infere from what you are saying that I will need to delve much  deeper  in to this that I had anticipated.   

On this same subject, in the Shutterbug article it states

 "To match on-screen adjustments you must use the Photoshop Edit    command Convert to Profile, and select the Destination Space: QTR - Gray Matte    Paper (which should be available in the profile drop-down list as it is installed    as part of QTR"   

I cannot find this setting at all...could this be affecting my results.. 

In any case, I think that i will do some step ramp testing...

thanks

Bernard


"Michael T. Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote: The 890 was a dye ink printer. The MIS carbon are pigment. There will 
be quite a difference there.

Were the 890 prints on matte or photo paper? Matte is also a 
completely different beast than photo paper.

Do you have an i1 or other spectrophotometer?  Are you using canned 
QTR curves or did you make your own?

Can you measure the "L" value of your darkest black?  Do you get a 
good 21 step ramp where the black maxes out quite well?  

Epson Ultrasmooth or Moab Entrada Bright White will give you a little 
more "pop."  

If you can get measurements via a photospectrometer or a scanner - 
see Paul Roark's B&W printing page - we can tell you if your results 
are in line.  I **think** the best L value on Epson Enhanced with 
Carbon 6 was around a 15? Can't remember, it has been a while.  

I have a canvas I just profiled that only gets down to 25!

Best,
Michael


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Hi again.... I just printed out the 21 step ramp and it shows proper range and matches my screen perfectly....

"Michael T. Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote: The 890 was a dye ink printer. The MIS carbon are pigment. There will 
be quite a difference there.

Were the 890 prints on matte or photo paper? Matte is also a 
completely different beast than photo paper.

Do you have an i1 or other spectrophotometer?  Are you using canned 
QTR curves or did you make your own?

Can you measure the "L" value of your darkest black?  Do you get a 
good 21 step ramp where the black maxes out quite well?  

Epson Ultrasmooth or Moab Entrada Bright White will give you a little 
more "pop."  

If you can get measurements via a photospectrometer or a scanner - 
see Paul Roark's B&W printing page - we can tell you if your results 
are in line.  I **think** the best L value on Epson Enhanced with 
Carbon 6 was around a 15? Can't remember, it has been a while.  

I have a canvas I just profiled that only gets down to 25!

Best,
Michael


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It sounds like your set-up is working "as designed."  

It should be plug and play, not that much you need to do on your 
side. I was not sure what your background was. Some of the folks here 
are rather technical. ;>) You can ignore the more technical questions.

All I would suggest is that you try another, more "premium" paper, 
and see whether you like the results better. I have standardized on 
Moab Entrada Bright White for my own purposes.

I don't have a dye ink installed right now, so I can't compare what 
black only using the dye ink looks like.  It will have more 
depth/darker blacks -a better DMAX.  

I am in the process of moving to more printing on photo papers, 
especially the newer fiber papers, instead of matte papers, probably 
for the same reasons you are a bit disappointed.

I imagine others will chime in tomorrow, more posts then.

Good luck!

Best,
Michael

Thanks for the advice Michael . I have been leaning that way myself. I don't think my "problem" is a technical one as the test wedge suggests but rather one of expectation. My 890 (1280) with BO printing dye ink really does a splendid job producing a B&W print. Unfortunately it is banding more and more often, is 7 yrs old and does show those pesky 'dots'. The R1800 is much better in that respect plus of course the larger prints were a factor in my decision to purchase it. I had hoped that B&O printing with the 3-MK setup would give me more of the same only better on the 1800.

I agree with Clayton Jones and Paul Roark about the desirability  of letting the paper show through and thus the use of BO printing, but if the blacks are not really there it kind of negates it, no ? In my 'simpleminded' way the simple answer would be darker carbon but I guess that is not possible so, back to the drawing board...  I will give the Moab a try if I can find any around here in Montreal.

I did do some printing with the  R1800 and custom ICC's from Epson and must say that they look very good indeed, no contrast problems there.

Thanks

Bernard

 

"Michael T. Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote: It sounds like your set-up is working "as designed."  

It should be plug and play, not that much you need to do on your 
side. I was not sure what your background was. Some of the folks here 
are rather technical. ;>) You can ignore the more technical questions.

All I would suggest is that you try another, more "premium" paper, 
and see whether you like the results better. I have standardized on 
Moab Entrada Bright White for my own purposes.

I don't have a dye ink installed right now, so I can't compare what 
black only using the dye ink looks like.  It will have more 
depth/darker blacks -a better DMAX.  

I am in the process of moving to more printing on photo papers, 
especially the newer fiber papers, instead of matte papers, probably 
for the same reasons you are a bit disappointed.

I imagine others will chime in tomorrow, more posts then.

Good luck!

Best,
Michael


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Hello Bernard,

I live in Longueuil and I have not found any Moab paper in Montreal
(yet). I've ordered mine from Vistek in Toronto. Their prices are on
par with US prices and shipping is not expensive. And if the paper is
in stock you'll get it in 2-3 business days. Very good service.

Let me know if you find a local source of paper in Montreal. I know
Photo Service seems to have a good selection but their prices are on
the high side.

Good luck,

Denis 

 I will give the Moab a try if I can find any around here in Montreal.

> 
>
> 
> Bernard
> 
>  
>

> I live in Longueuil and I have not found any Moab paper in Montreal

The bias toward Moab is mostly my own. It partly comes from the fact 
that the pre-punched and scored pages for my portfolios are Moab 
Entrada.

Others here are quite happy with many other papers. Certainly worth 
looking at the Moab, but I don't think it is any sort of "amazing 
fix" for the contrast or anything. ;>) Mostly just personal 
preference.

Jon Cone detailed the d-Max for some papers in a thread on the 
piezography3000 board recently:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/28689

Quote:  

**********************************************************

The papers are personal of course...

Some choose by dMax (in parenthesis)

Epson Enhanced Matte(1.571)
Epson Velvet Fine Art(1.615)
Hahnemuhle German Etching(1.647)
Hahnemuhle Museum Etching(1.644)
Hahnemuhle Natural Art Duo(1.687)
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag(1.678)
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Bright White(1.673)
Hahnemuhle White Velvet(1.640)
Inkpress Picture Rag Cool Tone(1.541)
Inkpress Picture Rag Warm Tone(1.564)
Innova Cold Press Texture Natural White(1.620)
Innova Fiba Print White Matte(1.580)
Innova Smooth Cotton High White(1.600)
Innova Smooth Cotton Natural White()
JonCone Studio Type 1(1.630)
JonCone Studio Type 2(1.624)
JonCone Studio Type 3(1.650)
Moab Entrada Bright(1.584)
Moab Entrada Natural(1.561)

Others by the color the paper imparts....
I would order as many of the paper sample sets we sell and choose that
way!

*******************************************************

You can see that the difference in dMax is not large among the group, 
though some are higher than others. Many of the "bright white" papers 
have OBA's (brighteners), which may make more of a psychological 
difference. The Entrada dMax is not much different than the Enhanced 
Matte in fact.



For comparison, I came across these numbers from Eric Chan's Epson 
3800 web site the other day.  Note the reference to dye based inks 
too ;>):

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html#deepest_pk

Quote:  

**********************************************************

What is the deepest black I can expect with Photo Black (PK) papers?

In Color mode, I have measured L* = 4.0 (d-max = 2.35) on Ilford 
Smooth Pearl. In ABW mode, I have measured L* = 2.9 (d-max = 2.49) on 
the same paper. This is getting close to the performance of dye-based 
inks -- impressive! It may be possible to get deeper blacks on other 
papers or with different driver settings. 

What is the deepest black I can expect with Matte Black (MK) papers?

In Color mode, I have measured L* = 16.0 (d-max = 1.68) on Epson 
Velvet Fine Art paper. In ABW mode, I have measured L* = 13.8 (d-max 
= 1.77) on the same paper. It may be possible to get deeper blacks on 
other papers or with different driver settings. 

**********************************************************

Note that the "L* = 16.0" is close to the L=15 that I remembered for 
Epson Enhanced Matte when I did my QTR curves with Carbon 6.

Good luck!  Have fun without getting too much of a headache.

Best,
Michael

I hear you Michael... if it was that easy we would all be Ansel Adams's...

I have been churning away here, making prints that is, and by the time I run out of ink - which from the looks of it will be a long time - I may yet be up to were I would like to be with these carbon inks.

Thanks for the input... if I find any magik bullets I will let you know !

Bernard

"Michael T. Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote: > I live in Longueuil and I have not found any Moab paper in Montreal

The bias toward Moab is mostly my own. It partly comes from the fact 
that the pre-punched and scored pages for my portfolios are Moab 
Entrada.

Others here are quite happy with many other papers. Certainly worth 
looking at the Moab, but I don't think it is any sort of "amazing 
fix" for the contrast or anything. ;>) Mostly just personal 
preference.

Jon Cone detailed the d-Max for some papers in a thread on the 
piezography3000 board recently:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/28689

Quote:  

**********************************************************

The papers are personal of course...

Some choose by dMax (in parenthesis)

Epson Enhanced Matte(1.571)
Epson Velvet Fine Art(1.615)
Hahnemuhle German Etching(1.647)
Hahnemuhle Museum Etching(1.644)
Hahnemuhle Natural Art Duo(1.687)
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag(1.678)
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Bright White(1.673)
Hahnemuhle White Velvet(1.640)
Inkpress Picture Rag Cool Tone(1.541)
Inkpress Picture Rag Warm Tone(1.564)
Innova Cold Press Texture Natural White(1.620)
Innova Fiba Print White Matte(1.580)
Innova Smooth Cotton High White(1.600)
Innova Smooth Cotton Natural White()
JonCone Studio Type 1(1.630)
JonCone Studio Type 2(1.624)
JonCone Studio Type 3(1.650)
Moab Entrada Bright(1.584)
Moab Entrada Natural(1.561)

Others by the color the paper imparts....
I would order as many of the paper sample sets we sell and choose that
way!

*******************************************************

You can see that the difference in dMax is not large among the group, 
though some are higher than others. Many of the "bright white" papers 
have OBA's (brighteners), which may make more of a psychological 
difference. The Entrada dMax is not much different than the Enhanced 
Matte in fact.



For comparison, I came across these numbers from Eric Chan's Epson 
3800 web site the other day.  Note the reference to dye based inks 
too ;>):

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html#deepest_pk

Quote:  

**********************************************************

What is the deepest black I can expect with Photo Black (PK) papers?

In Color mode, I have measured L* = 4.0 (d-max = 2.35) on Ilford 
Smooth Pearl. In ABW mode, I have measured L* = 2.9 (d-max = 2.49) on 
the same paper. This is getting close to the performance of dye-based 
inks -- impressive! It may be possible to get deeper blacks on other 
papers or with different driver settings. 

What is the deepest black I can expect with Matte Black (MK) papers?

In Color mode, I have measured L* = 16.0 (d-max = 1.68) on Epson 
Velvet Fine Art paper. In ABW mode, I have measured L* = 13.8 (d-max 
= 1.77) on the same paper. It may be possible to get deeper blacks on 
other papers or with different driver settings. 

**********************************************************

Note that the "L* = 16.0" is close to the L=15 that I remembered for 
Epson Enhanced Matte when I did my QTR curves with Carbon 6.

Good luck!  Have fun without getting too much of a headache.

Best,
Michael


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