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emulating platinum/palladium

emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-04 by jason_winshell

I've been experimenting with QTR on a R2400 using stock Epson inks to simulate the 
yellow/greenish look of palladium/platinum prints.   The "warm" curves provide the most 
yellow contribution.  However, I'm finding that with the provided curves I really can't get 
close.  The result does not have enough tint and has muddy clogged up shadows.  My 
biggest concern is the low tint saturation.  I've found that printing a color-tinted image 
using the Epson driver in color-mode gets me closer.   I'm a digital photographer and would 
really like the exhaust the possibilities of a digital simulation before I consider the real deal.  
Is my goal possible with QTR?  Does anyone have curves more suitable for emulating 
platinum/palladium?
   
Thoughts?

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-05 by Ken Carney

Jason,

 

I have printed quite a lot of pt/pd contact prints from LF in-camera images.
The closest canned "tones" I've seen are those by Zuber Photographics ("TZ
tones").  Sorry I don't have the URL handy.  These are a .ahu layer in
Photoshop for use with Epson OEM inks.  Printed on nice matte paper such as
HM  and once behind glass, not bad at all.  They also have other alt
"tones", such as kallitype, which I like.   Since they are RGB I print them
with ImagePrint rip.  I just received two pt prints from a master pt/pd
printer (who took his 8x10 rig to Paris for street photography!).  They are
superb, and if you compared them to an inkjet print side by side, no
contest.  But once behind even really good photo glass or plexi, the
differences subside.  Plus, I can do cropping, selective sharpening and
contrast and such not possible with contact prints.  

 

Ken

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of jason_winshell
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:42 PM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] emulating platinum/palladium

 

I've been experimenting with QTR on a R2400 using stock Epson inks to
simulate the 
yellow/greenish look of palladium/platinum prints. The "warm" curves provide
the most 
yellow contribution. However, I'm finding that with the provided curves I
really can't get 
close. The result does not have enough tint and has muddy clogged up
shadows. My 
biggest concern is the low tint saturation. I've found that printing a
color-tinted image 
using the Epson driver in color-mode gets me closer. I'm a digital
photographer and would 
really like the exhaust the possibilities of a digital simulation before I
consider the real deal. 
Is my goal possible with QTR? Does anyone have curves more suitable for
emulating 
platinum/palladium?

Thoughts?

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-05 by Joost Horsten

Hi Jason,

I must confess I can't precisely visualize the tone of 
palladium/platinum prints, but given your description I'm not 
surprised the standard QTR curves are of little help. Greenish tones 
are not often sought for. 

In practice, The variation of tones is done mostly along the Lab b 
axis (warm-cold or yellow-blue). Occasionally, depending on the ink 
set, one finds a selenium curve (I'm currently working on one for a 
particular paper) that allows vary into positive Lab a values (red), 
adding more magenta. 

But what you need is a curve into the negative Lab a values (green). 
With the OEM inks that should be possible, but you will have to 
create that yourself. And you need a spectrometer to do so. I expect 
such a curve to need ample of yellow, something that most of us here 
are avoiding, giving the relatively low archival quality of yellow 
pigments. 

I could see two ways to proceed. The simplest and most flexible way 
is to builds a pure greenish QTR curve (with a tone of around Lab a 
= -5 to -7, depending on the paper). This will be too green for your 
taste, but the idea is to use the QTR Curve blending feature to blend 
it with a warm curve. 

Perhaps a more "purist" approach would be to figure out what the 
tonal scale of palladium/platinum print looks like (in terms of Lab a 
and Lab values for varying L) and create a dedicated QTR curve 
working towards that. If you would by chance have print of a 
stepwedge avialable that would be fairly simple with a spectrometer. 
If not, I guess picking local values out of a standard print could 
work as well.

So, my feeling it is much very do-able, but it requires a 
spectrometer and some digging into QTR.

Joost

>
> I've been experimenting with QTR on a R2400 using stock Epson inks 
to simulate the 
> yellow/greenish look of palladium/platinum prints.   The "warm" 
curves provide the most 
> yellow contribution.  However, I'm finding that with the provided 
curves I really can't get 
> close.  The result does not have enough tint and has muddy clogged 
up shadows.  My 
> biggest concern is the low tint saturation.  I've found that 
printing a color-tinted image 
> using the Epson driver in color-mode gets me closer.   I'm a 
digital photographer and would 
> really like the exhaust the possibilities of a digital simulation 
before I consider the real deal.  
> Is my goal possible with QTR?  Does anyone have curves more 
suitable for emulating 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> platinum/palladium?
>    
> Thoughts?
>

Re: emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-06 by Joost Horsten

Hi Jason,

As I was a bit intrigued your post I checked out the link the Ken 
provided and I played a bit with the hue/saturation curves he 
suggested. It turns out that the platinum and platinum curves do not 
seem to provide any greenish tones at all.... They are more in the warm-
brownish area. Isn't that what you're seeking for?

I checked a bit the Lab a and Lab b values one gets with these 
hue/saturation curves, but most of them are around Lab b ~ 5-7 (so 
towards the yellow, but desaturated enough to use carbon only and not 
needing yellow) and Lab a ~ 2 (so just a bit towards the red). Such 
tone should be very easy to achieve by mixing a warm QTR curve and a 
selenium QTR curve. As a matter of fact, this turns out to be one of my 
favorite settings of my 2100 + UT3D inks (an inkset that includes a 
specific selenium toner). (Unfortunately, my 2100 passed away this 
summer and I am now getting up to speed on my new 3800 + UC inks.)

However, I checked the provided QTR curves and there do not seem to be 
any selenium curves for the 2400. So, you're still on your own to 
create that. As said in my earlier post, I'm currently working on a 
selenium curve for the 3800. I'm happy to share it, but it will only 
work for you as source of inspiration.

I'm not sure how serious you are in this, but if toned B&W printing is 
really your thing, I would seriously consider to set up a dedicated 
printer with UT3D inks.

Joost

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-09 by E Neilsen

I get a chuckle every time I see digital printers looking to emulate a
platinum/palladium print with their inkjet printers and ABSOULTELY fail to
provide any detail about the print that they what to emulate. Just like the
variety of curves, inks sets, paper, etc, there are many variations that
make up the color of a platinum/palladium print. 

 

Platinum and palladium are no more set than the QTR curves you make. Color
will change from printer (person making platinum prints) to printer. If you
are looking to copy a particular printers look you will need to do a spot
color analysis of his prints. My advice would to learn how to make digital
printing negatives and make the actual platinum prints. I'd be happy to
include you in a workshop. 25 years experience doing platinum/palladium and
now a few more doing digi stuff. 

 

Not only will you achieve the color you want but a print that will not carry
as much archival baggage as an inkjet. : )  

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Joost Horsten
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:01 AM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

 

Hi Jason,

As I was a bit intrigued your post I checked out the link the Ken 
provided and I played a bit with the hue/saturation curves he 
suggested. It turns out that the platinum and platinum curves do not 
seem to provide any greenish tones at all.... They are more in the warm-
brownish area. Isn't that what you're seeking for?

I checked a bit the Lab a and Lab b values one gets with these 
hue/saturation curves, but most of them are around Lab b ~ 5-7 (so 
towards the yellow, but desaturated enough to use carbon only and not 
needing yellow) and Lab a ~ 2 (so just a bit towards the red). Such 
tone should be very easy to achieve by mixing a warm QTR curve and a 
selenium QTR curve. As a matter of fact, this turns out to be one of my 
favorite settings of my 2100 + UT3D inks (an inkset that includes a 
specific selenium toner). (Unfortunately, my 2100 passed away this 
summer and I am now getting up to speed on my new 3800 + UC inks.)

However, I checked the provided QTR curves and there do not seem to be 
any selenium curves for the 2400. So, you're still on your own to 
create that. As said in my earlier post, I'm currently working on a 
selenium curve for the 3800. I'm happy to share it, but it will only 
work for you as source of inspiration.

I'm not sure how serious you are in this, but if toned B&W printing is 
really your thing, I would seriously consider to set up a dedicated 
printer with UT3D inks.

Joost




 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-09 by Paul Roark

Eric wrote, in part:

>... Platinum and palladium ... Color will change from printer 
> (person making platinum prints) to printer. ...

A couple of years ago the LA central library had a great exhibit of the
Getty's Edward Weston collection.  Many of his silver prints on display were
warmer than most of his earlier platinum prints -- rather the opposite of
what I expected.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-10 by Patrick Kealey

http://epaperpress.com/psphoto/ try this site, he has an action that emulates classic photographic tones including palladium/platinum.  not  QTR, but through photoshop printing. 
Patrick




      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-10 by E Neilsen

Patrick, This is just another example of what a platinum print IS NOT! Do
you do any platinum printing? Palladium printing? Platinum/palladium? With
or with out gold?  It is possible that somehow the sample used on  

 

I have been doing platinum/palladium printing since 1982. It is really a
false premise to say it looks like platinum. The like you provided lead me
to a really reddish print; looks very palladium like to me. But there is not
just ONE developer for platinum/palladium printing. We all develop our own
unique color and some like Bostick and Sullivan even try and make people
believe that a whole new process, the Ziatype, is different than a
platinum/palladium print. 

 

By the same token, you can not simply say "selenium" tone as if it is a
color; it is a toner capable of producing a range of colors. The ONLY way to
make a platinum/palladium toned print is to actually use it. Everything else
is a joke. I am not trying to be a snob here either, but rather just calling
it like I see em'. There are many colors, split tones, cold tones, etc but
the need to try and market a print with a process name that is neither that
process nor the color is a joke. 

 

 http://epaperpress.com/psphoto/          is the image I saw on the site. 

 

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Patrick Kealey
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 7:42 PM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

 

http://epaperpress. <http://epaperpress.com/psphoto/> com/psphoto/ try this
site, he has an action that emulates classic photographic tones including
palladium/platinum.  not  QTR, but through photoshop printing. 
Patrick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-10 by E Neilsen

Paul, That may be because he actually used platinum. Many "platinum" prints
made today are made with well over 90% palladium. They are called plating
prints because the printer chooses to use a name that has a higher profile.
There are color changes based on humidity of the paper at time of printing,
type of paper, type of developer, and even kind of light source. They may
have been toned with gold too. 

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:52 AM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

 

Eric wrote, in part:

>... Platinum and palladium ... Color will change from printer 
> (person making platinum prints) to printer. ...

A couple of years ago the LA central library had a great exhibit of the
Getty's Edward Weston collection. Many of his silver prints on display were
warmer than most of his earlier platinum prints -- rather the opposite of
what I expected.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-10 by Michael Gray

Jason,

Joost seems similarly confused on one point as I do.

Backtracking to William Willis' (1841�1923) original platinum process,  
this produces images which are neutral black with a bias toward a deep  
blue black, that is, in its basic form. Later modifications to his  
process included, first of all, palladium (the chloride) which extends  
the tonal range and increases the warmth of the end result - shifting  
the colour to a deep purple-brown-black in the shadow areas. If in  
addition, two or three drops of gold chloride (gold 3) are added to  
the sensitiser this imparts a subtle rose tint to the highlight areas.  
Most platinum printers and photographers that I know in the UK tend to  
reject any modifications that might possibly bias their prints towards  
green!

Back to digital simulation.

ImagePrint possess a subtle and extensive range of controls for this  
form of manipulation and  which is about on a par with that of  
QuadtoneRIP ( which I use). The basic split tone controls can be quite  
simply configured to give results that are almost impossible to  
distinguish from a platinum-paladium print.

  I would recommend the use of  William Turner - Heavy Weight 310gsm   
available from Fotospeed  or one of their US agents; checkout their  
website for info on:

Hahnem�hle German Etching, 310 gsm
and William-Turner-310gsm.

Michael



On 6 Oct 2008, at 15:01, Joost Horsten wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> As I was a bit intrigued your post I checked out the link the Ken
> provided and I played a bit with the hue/saturation curves he
> suggested. It turns out that the platinum and platinum curves do not
> seem to provide any greenish tones at all.... They are more in the  
> warm-
> brownish area. Isn't that what you're seeking for?
>
> I checked a bit the Lab a and Lab b values one gets with these
> hue/saturation curves, but most of them are around Lab b ~ 5-7 (so
> towards the yellow, but desaturated enough to use carbon only and not
> needing yellow) and Lab a ~ 2 (so just a bit towards the red). Such
> tone should be very easy to achieve by mixing a warm QTR curve and a
> selenium QTR curve. As a matter of fact, this turns out to be one of  
> my
> favorite settings of my 2100 + UT3D inks (an inkset that includes a
> specific selenium toner). (Unfortunately, my 2100 passed away this
> summer and I am now getting up to speed on my new 3800 + UC inks.)
>
> However, I checked the provided QTR curves and there do not seem to be
> any selenium curves for the 2400. So, you're still on your own to
> create that. As said in my earlier post, I'm currently working on a
> selenium curve for the 3800. I'm happy to share it, but it will only
> work for you as source of inspiration.
>
> I'm not sure how serious you are in this, but if toned B&W printing is
> really your thing, I would seriously consider to set up a dedicated
> printer with UT3D inks.
>
> Joost
>
>
>
>
> 

Michael Gray
exxmwg@...

http://www.michael-gray.org

Director and Partner:		Image Research Associates
Curator:					National Trust Fox Talbot Museum 1989-2004
External Adviser: 			British Library: Department of Manuscripts  
Jerwood Project Board 2001-2006
Consultant:				Arquivo Nacional de Fotografia, Museus Portugu�s,  
Lisbon 1992-
Scientific Director: 		University of Pordenone and Udine Consortium,  
Ikonscentre Project Pordenone 1994-2002			

Monmouth House | 4 Bath Road | Beckington | Frome | BA11 6SW | United  
Kingdom





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

2008-10-10 by E Neilsen

Sorry folks, that post should have read.. "They are called platinum prints
because the printer. "

I guess I have been spoiled by other forum groups where I can go an edit my
typos. : ( 

 

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

 

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

SKype ejprinter

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com [mailto:QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of E Neilsen
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:56 AM
To: QuadtoneRIP@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

 

Paul, That may be because he actually used platinum. Many "platinum" prints
made today are made with well over 90% palladium. They are called plating
prints because the printer chooses to use a name that has a higher profile.
There are color changes based on humidity of the paper at time of printing,
type of paper, type of developer, and even kind of light source. They may
have been toned with gold too. 

Eric

Eric Neilsen Photo

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214 827-8301

http://ericneilsenp <http://ericneilsenphotography.com> hotography.com

SKype ejprinter

_____ 

From: QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
[mailto:QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
On
Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:52 AM
To: QuadtoneRIP@ <mailto:QuadtoneRIP%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [QuadtoneRIP] Re: emulating platinum/palladium

Eric wrote, in part:

>... Platinum and palladium ... Color will change from printer 
> (person making platinum prints) to printer. ...

A couple of years ago the LA central library had a great exhibit of the
Getty's Edward Weston collection. Many of his silver prints on display were
warmer than most of his earlier platinum prints -- rather the opposite of
what I expected.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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