QTR-Quadtone RIP

Hello
I am trying to measure the dmax on a test strip using eye-one pro.
Does anyone have the experience of interpreting the L value and
therefore getting the dmax?
thank you.

>...
> Does anyone have the experience of interpreting the 
> L value and therefore getting the dmax?

Not sure if this is what you're after, but at 
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/ Lindbloom has a calculator program that
translates between L and D.  Go to the above website, click on "Calc" at the
top and then "Companding Calculator."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul, I was using eye one pro which gives the L value and  
wanted to see how Dmax is measured.

On 27-Feb-09, at 6:49 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> >...
> > Does anyone have the experience of interpreting the
> > L value and therefore getting the dmax?
>
> Not sure if this is what you're after, but at
> http://www.brucelindbloom.com/ Lindbloom has a calculator program that
> translates between L and D. Go to the above website, click on "Calc"  
> at the
> top and then "Companding Calculator."
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is the Eye-One not capable of giving density values?  Will it only give Lab values?

> I am trying to measure the dmax on a test strip using eye-one pro.
> Does anyone have the experience of interpreting the L value and
> therefore getting the dmax?
> thank you.
>

for L* to density I use Bruce's calculator here
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?CompandCalculator.html

Mike
2009/2/27 Randy Rancier <randy_rancier2004@...>

>   Is the Eye-One not capable of giving density values? Will it only give
> Lab values?
>
> > I am trying to measure the dmax on a test strip using eye-one pro.
> > Does anyone have the experience of interpreting the L value and
> > therefore getting the dmax?
> > thank you.
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The EyeOne driver software does indeed support measuring density.  But  
it's up to the individual user software (eg, MeasureTool) that's using  
the EyeOne to set the driver into density mode.  As stated, it's also  
possible to calculate density from Lab values.

(I know this because I'm writing some software that talks directly to  
the EyeOne, to ease the making of custom QTR curves.)

--John

On 27 Feb 2009, at 8:48 AM, Randy Rancier wrote:

> Is the Eye-One not capable of giving density values?  Will it only  
> give Lab values?
>
>> I am trying to measure the dmax on a test strip using eye-one pro.
>> Does anyone have the experience of interpreting the L value and
>> therefore getting the dmax?
>> thank you.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hello John
I am using measuring tool in the demo mode. I have struggled through  
this but cannot find in the documentation how to do this. Any  
suggestions?

Interesting to know about your software, is it due to come out soon.  
Anything to make the proces easier would be helpful.
Thank you
Dileepa
On 27-Feb-09, at 11:56 PM, John Labovitz wrote:

> The EyeOne driver software does indeed support measuring density. But
> it's up to the individual user software (eg, MeasureTool) that's using
> the EyeOne to set the driver into density mode. As stated, it's also
> possible to calculate density from Lab values.
>
> (I know this because I'm writing some software that talks directly to
> the EyeOne, to ease the making of custom QTR curves.)
>
> --John
>
> On 27 Feb 2009, at 8:48 AM, Randy Rancier wrote:
>
> > Is the Eye-One not capable of giving density values? Will it only
> > give Lab values?
> >
> >> I am trying to measure the dmax on a test strip using eye-one pro.
> >> Does anyone have the experience of interpreting the L value and
> >> therefore getting the dmax?
> >> thank you.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you Paul,

On 27-Feb-09, at 6:49 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> >...
> > Does anyone have the experience of interpreting the
> > L value and therefore getting the dmax?
>
> Not sure if this is what you're after, but at
> http://www.brucelindbloom.com/ Lindbloom has a calculator program that
> translates between L and D. Go to the above website, click on "Calc"  
> at the
> top and then "Companding Calculator."
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John, that sounds like a great project, I hope it works out.
I still use Quickread, a wonderful utility, no longer available I'm afraid, it would give 
density, among other measurements, directly.
Can't remember who developed it, may have been Robin Myers.
Tyler

--- In QuadtoneRIP@...m, John Labovitz <johnl@...> wrote:

>
> The EyeOne driver software does indeed support measuring density.  But  
> it's up to the individual user software (eg, MeasureTool) that's using  
> the EyeOne to set the driver into density mode.  As stated, it's also  
> possible to calculate density from Lab values.
> 
> (I know this because I'm writing some software that talks directly to  
> the EyeOne, to ease the making of custom QTR curves.)
> 
> --John
> 
> 
> On 27 Feb 2009, at 8:48 AM, Randy Rancier wrote:
> 
> > Is the Eye-One not capable of giving density values?  Will it only  
> > give Lab values?
> >
> >> I am trying to measure the dmax on a test strip using eye-one pro.
> >> Does anyone have the experience of interpreting the L value and
> >> therefore getting the dmax?
> >> thank you.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

On 27 Feb 2009, at 8:11 PM, Dileepa Wijesundera wrote:

> I am using measuring tool in the demo mode. I have struggled through
> this but cannot find in the documentation how to do this. Any
> suggestions?

I tried it myself (also in the demo mode) and couldn't get anywhere  
either.  I did notice that if I turned on the "Spectral" checkbox in  
the Configuration dialog, then selecting Spot Measurement at least  
showed a possibility of "Densitometric" mode (in addition to  
"Colormetric") -- however, it was grayed out, and nothing I did would  
enable it.  I wonder if this is a limit of the demo?

> Interesting to know about your software, is it due to come out soon.
> Anything to make the proces easier would be helpful.

My main goal is to automate the time-consuming process of analyzing  
the stepcharts to determine the relative ink levels.  I dislike  
depending on the (ancient) MeasureTool.  More importantly, I find the  
calibration process to be very manually-oriented and prone to errors.   
It seems a perfect thing to build into a program.  There's also a  
wonderful opportunity to visualize how QTR will print an image, and  
allow the printmaker to really tune their printing to their own tastes.

As of now, this is what I have:

	- A program that simply lets me measure patches on a printed chart,  
like a very simple version of MeasureTool.  My program communicates  
with the EyeOne, then writes the resulting Lab values out to a text  
file; I use it by measuring prints of the "inkseparation6.tif" chart  
that comes with QTR.  In this way, I get the range of Lab values of  
the inks I'm using.  I'd like to expand this to generate the charts  
themselves (for reliability purposes), as well as to read the charts  
in strip mode rather than single-patch mode.

	- A program that reads those text files containing the inks' Lab  
values, and performs the same process as outlined in the "QuadToneRIP  
2.5 Calibration" document.  The program generates a profile file with  
both the LIMIT_* and the GRAY_INK_*/GRAY_VAL_* values, according to  
the analyzed inkset.  (The cool thing about the algorithm I've come up  
with is that it doesn't care what inks are what, nor what order  
they're in.  That's great when you have a clogged K nozzle, like I do  
right now!)

	- A program that shows a particular grayscale image, and given a  
particular (.quad) profile, shows not only the curves for the inks in  
the profile (like QTR-CurveView already does), but also renders  
several additional versions of the image, one per ink, showing exactly  
what ink coverage would be used for that image.  It's not perfect --  
it doesn't account for things like dot gain -- but I've found it  
useful to visualize how a particular image is going to print using a  
particular profile.

Another idea I had was to take a final step-chart of a fully  
linearized profile, and produce a chart showing the color shift (that  
is, the a/b components of each step) as well as the overall density.

I have to warn you that all these programs are quite rough, and not  
ready for general use.  However, I would like to do the work to get  
them into a form that other people could use.  I should mention that  
all of these are designed to work on a Mac (running Leopard/10.5).   
Parts of the core analysis could be made to run on Windows (it's all  
programmed in Ruby), but I don't use Windows, so I have no plans for  
anything but Mac versions.

--John

John
Great piece of software, it sounds as if it will take the misery out  
of making profiles!! What are your plans for making available for  
users, even the current state appears to be more useful than some we  
are using.?
Dileepa
On 28-Feb-09, at 1:15 PM, John Labovitz wrote:

> On 27 Feb 2009, at 8:11 PM, Dileepa Wijesundera wrote:
>
> > I am using measuring tool in the demo mode. I have struggled through
> > this but cannot find in the documentation how to do this. Any
> > suggestions?
>
> I tried it myself (also in the demo mode) and couldn't get anywhere
> either. I did notice that if I turned on the "Spectral" checkbox in
> the Configuration dialog, then selecting Spot Measurement at least
> showed a possibility of "Densitometric" mode (in addition to
> "Colormetric") -- however, it was grayed out, and nothing I did would
> enable it. I wonder if this is a limit of the demo?
>
> > Interesting to know about your software, is it due to come out soon.
> > Anything to make the proces easier would be helpful.
>
> My main goal is to automate the time-consuming process of analyzing
> the stepcharts to determine the relative ink levels. I dislike
> depending on the (ancient) MeasureTool. More importantly, I find the
> calibration process to be very manually-oriented and prone to errors.
> It seems a perfect thing to build into a program. There's also a
> wonderful opportunity to visualize how QTR will print an image, and
> allow the printmaker to really tune their printing to their own  
> tastes.
>
> As of now, this is what I have:
>
> - A program that simply lets me measure patches on a printed chart,
> like a very simple version of MeasureTool. My program communicates
> with the EyeOne, then writes the resulting Lab values out to a text
> file; I use it by measuring prints of the "inkseparation6.tif" chart
> that comes with QTR. In this way, I get the range of Lab values of
> the inks I'm using. I'd like to expand this to generate the charts
> themselves (for reliability purposes), as well as to read the charts
> in strip mode rather than single-patch mode.
>
> - A program that reads those text files containing the inks' Lab
> values, and performs the same process as outlined in the "QuadToneRIP
> 2.5 Calibration" document. The program generates a profile file with
> both the LIMIT_* and the GRAY_INK_*/GRAY_VAL_* values, according to
> the analyzed inkset. (The cool thing about the algorithm I've come up
> with is that it doesn't care what inks are what, nor what order
> they're in. That's great when you have a clogged K nozzle, like I do
> right now!)
>
> - A program that shows a particular grayscale image, and given a
> particular (.quad) profile, shows not only the curves for the inks in
> the profile (like QTR-CurveView already does), but also renders
> several additional versions of the image, one per ink, showing exactly
> what ink coverage would be used for that image. It's not perfect --
> it doesn't account for things like dot gain -- but I've found it
> useful to visualize how a particular image is going to print using a
> particular profile.
>
> Another idea I had was to take a final step-chart of a fully
> linearized profile, and produce a chart showing the color shift (that
> is, the a/b components of each step) as well as the overall density.
>
> I have to warn you that all these programs are quite rough, and not
> ready for general use. However, I would like to do the work to get
> them into a form that other people could use. I should mention that
> all of these are designed to work on a Mac (running Leopard/10.5).
> Parts of the core analysis could be made to run on Windows (it's all
> programmed in Ruby), but I don't use Windows, so I have no plans for
> anything but Mac versions.
>
> --John
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe this is what you are looking for.
Howard

Howard Steinberg
805-543-1392
hsteinb@...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Howard
Some parts of your message have been removed
Dileepa
On 28-Feb-09, at 10:42 PM, Howard Steinberg wrote:

> I believe this is what you are looking for.
> Howard
>
> Howard Steinberg
> 805-543-1392
> hsteinb@charter.net
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't understand the difficulty with MeasureTool -- it works quite
well.  Not only
does it read individual patches but it's nice in that it works in scan mode with
error checking.

The Eye-One-ReadMe.pdf in QTR goes over all the details of use.  It does read
out in Lab rather than density -- most people just get used to L values but the
conversion is easy too with a spreadsheet/calculator.

Roy

On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 2:15 AM, John Labovitz <johnl@...> wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2009, at 8:11 PM, Dileepa Wijesundera wrote:
>
>> I am using measuring tool in the demo mode. I have struggled through
>> this but cannot find in the documentation how to do this. Any
>> suggestions?
>
> I tried it myself (also in the demo mode) and couldn't get anywhere
> either.  I did notice that if I turned on the "Spectral" checkbox in
> the Configuration dialog, then selecting Spot Measurement at least
> showed a possibility of "Densitometric" mode (in addition to
> "Colormetric") -- however, it was grayed out, and nothing I did would
> enable it.  I wonder if this is a limit of the demo?
>
>> Interesting to know about your software, is it due to come out soon.
>> Anything to make the proces easier would be helpful.
>
> My main goal is to automate the time-consuming process of analyzing
> the stepcharts to determine the relative ink levels.  I dislike
> depending on the (ancient) MeasureTool.  More importantly, I find the
> calibration process to be very manually-oriented and prone to errors.
> It seems a perfect thing to build into a program.  There's also a
> wonderful opportunity to visualize how QTR will print an image, and
> allow the printmaker to really tune their printing to their own tastes.
>
> As of now, this is what I have:
>
>        - A program that simply lets me measure patches on a printed chart,
> like a very simple version of MeasureTool.  My program communicates
> with the EyeOne, then writes the resulting Lab values out to a text
> file; I use it by measuring prints of the "inkseparation6.tif" chart
> that comes with QTR.  In this way, I get the range of Lab values of
> the inks I'm using.  I'd like to expand this to generate the charts
> themselves (for reliability purposes), as well as to read the charts
> in strip mode rather than single-patch mode.
>
>        - A program that reads those text files containing the inks' Lab
> values, and performs the same process as outlined in the "QuadToneRIP
> 2.5 Calibration" document.  The program generates a profile file with
> both the LIMIT_* and the GRAY_INK_*/GRAY_VAL_* values, according to
> the analyzed inkset.  (The cool thing about the algorithm I've come up
> with is that it doesn't care what inks are what, nor what order
> they're in.  That's great when you have a clogged K nozzle, like I do
> right now!)
>
>        - A program that shows a particular grayscale image, and given a
> particular (.quad) profile, shows not only the curves for the inks in
> the profile (like QTR-CurveView already does), but also renders
> several additional versions of the image, one per ink, showing exactly
> what ink coverage would be used for that image.  It's not perfect --
> it doesn't account for things like dot gain -- but I've found it
> useful to visualize how a particular image is going to print using a
> particular profile.
>
> Another idea I had was to take a final step-chart of a fully
> linearized profile, and produce a chart showing the color shift (that
> is, the a/b components of each step) as well as the overall density.
>
> I have to warn you that all these programs are quite rough, and not
> ready for general use.  However, I would like to do the work to get
> them into a form that other people could use.  I should mention that
> all of these are designed to work on a Mac (running Leopard/10.5).
> Parts of the core analysis could be made to run on Windows (it's all
> programmed in Ruby), but I don't use Windows, so I have no plans for
> anything but Mac versions.
>
> --John
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

On 28 Feb 2009, at 12:55 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

> I don't understand the difficulty with MeasureTool -- it works quite
> well.  Not only
> does it read individual patches but it's nice in that it works in  
> scan mode with
> error checking.

True enough.  MeasureTool works, but I find it to be a cumbersome tool  
-- too many clicks to get to what I want to do, and slow, since the  
Mac version is an old PPC application that needs to be run under  
Rosetta emulation with modern Intel-based Macs.

The EyeOne SDK is not too hard to use, and I've been successful at  
getting measurements directly from the device much more quickly and in  
a form that's more suitable for the entire profiling process, not just  
the linearization portion.

> The Eye-One-ReadMe.pdf in QTR goes over all the details of use.  It  
> does read
> out in Lab rather than density -- most people just get used to L  
> values but the
> conversion is easy too with a spreadsheet/calculator.

In addition to Bruce Lindbloom's online calculators, I found a  
simplified formula that he proposed for grayscale density conversion.

	If L > 8
		Y = ((L + 16)/116)^3
	Else
	Y = (L * 27)/24389

	Density = -log10(Y)

By his reference to Y, I presume that he's doing an Lab->XYZ  
conversion, but in a way that only deals with the L component.  (For  
those who don't know, the Y component in XYZ is analogous to the L  
component in Lab -- both refer to luminance, although in different  
scales.)

Here's the message in the discussion:

	http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-users/2003/May/msg00249.html

--John

HI,

Go for ColoPort a free utility grom x-rite

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?Action=support&ID=719

It's really great.
You can easy make your own targets.
When measuring and/or saving you can have the result in what ever you  
like even density.

Hans



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]